A GREAT CONTRADICTION
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
But despite our differences, we are essentially talking about the same thing and basically even saying the same thing... the only thing I disagree with is that the term detailed is just a wrong use of the word since the Quran is NOT detailed. Complete, perfect, but not detailed since detailed would mean that EVERYTHING was explained .... IN DETAIL... that when it came time to punish drinking, it was .... explained... you guessed it... IN DETAIL! Detail is not "figure it out yourself." Detail is this is exactly how you do it (such as in zina).
You can differ with the term detailed all you wish, however, it will not change matters. You continue to want to align the use of detail with EVERYTHING while Allah is not. Fully detailed is only in reference to His Quran being that, relative to/specific to--GUIDANCE, that is all.
(This is not to say we dont have guidance on what to do... of course we do. We all have an idea how to deal with drinking... undetailed guidance is NOT equal to detailed guidance, but in both cases, it is SUFFICIENT.)
Well, given that we have guidance as to what to do, then we have the guidance, what is the problem?
"Undetailed" guidance, relative to Al-Quran, is an oxymoron. Guidance is guidance is guidance.
Please don't focus on this post and continue to ignore the previous one, thanks.
Peace and looking forward to your reply.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Perhaps you could chime in and help bring resolution to the debate. You were never one to shy from debate, so...why now?
lol You know something respected brother, our debates taught me some imprtant lessons. There comes a point when the debates trun into arguments and the God instructs us that there is no arguing in the debate, so I back away a lot more these days, so that I don't develop headaches as Shuiab says he does when he leaves this forum. There is no compulsion in this system, so I give my examples from time to time and then turn away. It is up to each individual to do thier own work.
Regarding this topic, I saw you state that you were seeing my understanding a little better, but still not convinced, so I was letting you work it out.
What is your Quranic understanding of this debate?
I'll chime in again shortly, but the basis of my understanding has been given, all one needs to do is to collect all occurences and check it out. I have to get caught back up first then I will give more input.
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salam pb,
You've referred to me on a couple of occasions, and erroneously so, as being intellectually dishonest and immature, yes?
i've explained exactly what I meant by these things.. blindly clutching modern dictionaries while TOTALLY ignoring the plethora of evidence others have given you is what i refer to as dishonest. ESPECIALLY since this is a field that you truly have no TRUE knowledge of... Arabic!
APPLE PIE ANYONE?? You are no different than apple pie in your techniques.
Well, why then, don't you behave in an intellectully honest and mature manner and simply answer, at last, the following? 244 Do you enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget to practice it yourselves, and yet you study the Scripture? Will you not understand?
Well this is quite bizarre.. but yes i understand and will practice as i preach, just as the Quran has ordered.
What's your point?
It's really quite sad and pathetic to see you repeatedly drag wakas in this.. as if it mattered whether he agrees or disagrees.
Sorry if I didnt answer your question, but you certainly didn't make it obvious exactly what you were asking.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
salam pb,
You've referred to me on a couple of occasions, and erroneously so, as being intellectually dishonest and immature, yes?
i've explained exactly what I meant by these things.. blindly clutching modern dictionaries while TOTALLY ignoring the plethora of evidence others have given you is what i refer to as dishonest. ESPECIALLY since this is a field that you truly have no TRUE knowledge of... Arabic!
APPLE PIE ANYONE?? You are no different than apple pie in your techniques.
Well, why then, don't you behave in an intellectully honest and mature manner and simply answer, at last, the following? 244 Do you enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget to practice it yourselves, and yet you study the Scripture? Will you not understand?
Well this is quite bizarre.. but yes i understand and will practice as i preach, just as the Quran has ordered.
What's your point?
It's really quite sad and pathetic to see you repeatedly drag wakas in this.. as if it mattered whether he agrees or disagrees.
Sorry if I didnt answer your question, but you certainly didn't make it obvious exactly what you were asking.
Why won't you answer my question? Why do you continue to focus on personal stuff and avoid the issue of this thread?
What I asked was quite obvious, and well you know it. Your refusal to address my last two post to you, only solidifies the correctness of my position that, fasala, means fully detailed, as well as, relative to/specific to guidance, Al-Quran is fasla. In contrast, you have done both Al-Quran and yourself a great diservice by not being honest and answering my questions to you. You, and unfortunately Wakas, whom, I respect immensely, have seriously damaged your reputations. When people run and duck clearly asked questions, because they don't want to admit when they are wrong, it can only damage their credibility. Nothing else you say here at Free-Minds, for those who have read this thread anyway, can be fully respected or trusted now. Reputation/credibility is worth more than gold or platinum, and you've lost yours with me. Oh, btw, don't you believe that Allah has taken note of this discussion? If so, what are you running from?
Peace.
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salam pb,
thanks for your analysis of my credibility... it's amazing how much value your words about "credibility" have.. considering your tactics. And your little "tantrum" does wonders to establish your maturity level as well.
Nothing else you say here at Free-Minds, for those who have read this thread anyway, can be fully respected or trusted now.
Wow, again.. i didn't realize you were the mind heart soul and voice of free-minds forum. First you put words into wakas' mouth (according to him you MISREPRESENTED him), and now you put words in the rest of the forums mouths...
I'm the one making a bad name for myself??
Why won't you answer my question? Why do you continue to focus on personal stuff and avoid the issue of this thread?
What I asked was quite obvious, and well you know it.
Your refusal to address my last two post to you, only solidifies the correctness of my position that, fasala, means fully detailed...Do me a favor... look back at your last post and tell me WHERE that question is???
What Quranic word/term, are you using for--fully detailed?
Here's one of your questions, but certainly this question is for wakas and not myself since I have not explained the Quran as being FULLY DETAILED. You are the one trying to prove its fully detailed, not me.. for me, it doesn't matter if the phrase fully detailed is NEVER found in the Quran, it doesn't affect my position... however for you, it is critically important.
Which is exactly why you cling to your inaccurate modern Arabic "dictionaries" with such apple-pie-esque stubborness.
Like I said in my previous post
Sorry if I didnt answer your question, but you certainly didn't make it obvious exactly what you were asking.
Are these the words of someone avoiding a question? It's not my fault if you are a poor communicator. I honestly looked for a question to answer, and I have nothing to hide from questions. Quote your previous post what EXACTLY you asked, then I can be more sure about what you are asking.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
Here's one of your questions, but certainly this question is for wakas and not myself since I have not explained the Quran as being FULLY DETAILED. You are the one trying to prove its fully detailed, not me.. for me, it doesn't matter if the phrase fully detailed is NEVER found in the Quran, it doesn't affect my position... however for you, it is critically important.
This is why I say your credibility is damaged and that you are being disingenuous. I agree that Al-Quran is not fully detailed, except, relative to/specific to--guidance, that is all--GUIDANCE/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
No matter how many times I state the above, you continue to look right past it. Let's see if I can improve upon my poor communication skills. I'm saying Al-Quran is fully detailed for guidance as defined by these ayats 2185, 187, 18110, and 649.
Now here are my questions
- Do you agree or disagree that, relative to/specific to the above definition of GUIDANCE--as corroborated by those four ayats that, Al-Quran is fully detailed...yes or no?
In other words
- Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL...yes or no?
Are these questions clear? These questions require only a yes or a no response, so please...no embellishments.
Looking forward to your reply
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Peace be upon you,
Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL...yes or no?
I have a question I would like to test that statement with. Is it the right path or straying for a 45 year old man to sleep with young boys in his bed, even though no sex takes place?
I know the God speaks about chastity and homosexuality, but that does not apply here, so what is the ruling?
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PEACE, IDOL,
Peace be upon you,
Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL...yes or no?
I have a question I would like to test that statement with. Is it the right path or straying for a 45 year old man to sleep with young boys in his bed, even though no sex takes place?
I know the God speaks about chastity and homosexuality, but that does not apply here, so what is the ruling?
Before challange, you must first render your answers and then make you challenge based on that. No asking questions to questions, thanks.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Peace be upon you PB,
I will answer your questions.
- Do you agree or disagree that, relative to/specific to the above definition of GUIDANCE--as corroborated by those four ayats that, Al-Quran is fully detailed...yes or no?
Al Quraan is the guidance obtained from Universal Law, but I understand that you take it to be the title of a book so I will answer from your understanding. At this point I disagree, because I do not see if it is okay or not to sleep with young boys in my bed. Further, The God says that Al Kitaab is fully detailed, there is no verse saying Al Quraan is fully detailed. Al Quran is "guidance to the people (2185)"
For example, how is the following verse, addessed to the "believers" (Those who trust), to be understood if this Book we call "Koran" is "AL quraan?
(5101) You, those who trust, do not question/ask about things, if (it) appears to you, it harms you , and if you ask/question about it a time (when) the reading descends (it) appears to you, God forgave/pardoned about it, and God (is) forgiving/clement.
is the "Koran" going to descend to you? Or is it guidance of The God's Universal Law?
In other words
- Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL...yes or no?
Al Quraan, the reading, is the reharsal of the God's signs from the horizons tro within our souls, which is Al Kitaab. That is why when the God's signs are regearsed they say "bring a reading other than this". TRhis Book you call "Koran" because of its size, cannot be "Al Quraan" and therfore cannot be fully detailed.
Is there instruction on how to start a fire?
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PEACE, KYLE,
Peace be upon you PB,
I will answer your questions.
- Do you agree or disagree that, relative to/specific to the above definition of GUIDANCE--as corroborated by those four ayats that, Al-Quran is fully detailed...yes or no?
Al Quraan is the guidance obtained from Universal Law, but I understand that you take it to be the title of a book so I will answer from your understanding. At this point I disagree, because I do not see if it is okay or not to sleep with young boys in my bed. Further, The God says that Al Kitaab is fully detailed, there is no verse saying Al Quraan is fully detailed. Al Quran is "guidance to the people (2185)"
For example, how is the following verse, addessed to the "believers" (Those who trust), to be understood if this Book we call "Koran" is "AL quraan?
(5101) You, those who trust, do not question/ask about things, if (it) appears to you, it harms you , and if you ask/question about it a time (when) the reading descends (it) appears to you, God forgave/pardoned about it, and God (is) forgiving/clement.
is the "Koran" going to descend to you? Or is it guidance of The God's Universal Law?
In other words
- Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL...yes or no?
Al Quraan, the reading, is the reharsal of the God's signs from the horizons tro within our souls, which is Al Kitaab. That is why when the God's signs are regearsed they say "bring a reading other than this". TRhis Book you call "Koran" because of its size, cannot be "Al Quraan" and therfore cannot be fully detailed.
Is there instruction on how to start a fire?
Thank you very much for your reply.
Would you please copy and paste this reply under the thread dedicated to it SOME VERY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS... and I will reply to you there, thanks again for your reply.
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salam pb,
i dont know why you insist on going in circles. you just want to ask the same question over and over, no matter how many times i answer it. this time i'm answering you by actually quoting myself, to prove the point.
YOU SAID
- Do you agree or disagree that, relative to/specific to the above definition of GUIDANCE--as corroborated by those four ayats that, Al-Quran is fully detailed...yes or no?
I HAVE SAID AND HAVE BEEN SAYING IN PREVIOUS POSTS
Thus, the Quran IS complete, despite leaving out "details."
it should be obvious that the guidance IS complete
The Quran is complete, ALL the necessary guidance is there and even some of the laws are detailed... EVERYTHING WE NEED TO SUCCEED IS THERE!
I have said that ALL the principles are there. The APPLICATIONS/laws are NOT all there (only some).
if you had actually READ my posts... you would have realized that from post #1 I have ALWAYS claimed that the principles were complete. I simply was trying to say that the APPLICATIONS/ACTUAL LEGAL RULES i.e. LAWS (like do not speed, do this and you get lashed, this much income tax, etc) are not all there... drinking is fuhasha, zina is fuhasha... zina is specifically punished...
we both agree that all we need is the Quran and the Quran is complete and perfect. we both agree that we dont require outside divine sources and all necessary divine guidance is in the Quran.
Complete, perfect, but not detailed since detailed would mean that EVERYTHING was explained .... IN DETAIL... that when it came time to punish drinking, it was .... explained... you guessed it... IN DETAIL! Detail is not "figure it out yourself." Detail is this is exactly how you do it (such as in zina).
YOU SAID
- Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL...yes or no?
I SAID
Thus, the Quran IS complete, despite leaving out "details."
And as above I made many other statements indicating the same idea... and if the Quran is complete, obviously if a person goes astray it is not the fault of the Quran.
Fully-detailed is simply the wrong word.. and you too, even YOU aren't using it to TRULY mean fully detailed.. you are simply using it to mean complete. And your above 2 questions display that as well.. all you are trying to say is FULLY COMPLETE, so WHY do you insist on using the term detailed which can lead to false impressions!
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
I replied to your post on the thread
SOME VERY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS
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salam pb,
The likely reason people do not like to discuss with you after a while, is because it becomes more and more obvious that you are agenda driven.
So true. See my appraisal and warning...
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4359
You make a big deal about wakas agreeing with you, (which ironically enough turned out not to be true), while it is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT how many people agree or disagree with you... truth is truth, regardless of popularity.
PRIEST_BOKMEI = dhulqarnain (banned twice before).
This reminds me of "dhulqarnain"'s list thread s/he started attempting to compile a group of people who believed in the same dogmas s/he did. On the face of it, it was Quran only/God alone people - but careful examination showed it was a subset of those who agreed exactly with dhulqarnain ie. PRIEST_BOKMEI's ideas.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1230
PB If people would simply accept 1+1=2, then, there would be no need to repaeat things.
Spoken like a true dogmatist.
1+1=2 would be a good statement, if PRIEST_BOKMEI aka DHULQARNANE could make it. Instead you'll just get....
1+1... 1+1... 1+1 over and over.
The misquotations are an issue and another example has been found.
This disgusting behaviour by PRIEST_BOKMEI aka DHULQARNANE is in my view something that should not be tolerated given the atrocious reputation of this individual.
Unfortunately, the newer or less experienced people are being sucked into agenda driven 'discussions' with this character.
Peace/
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Peace Oben,
This reminds me of "dhulqarnain"'s list thread s/he started attempting to compile a group of people who believed in the same dogmas s/he did. On the face of it, it was Quran only/God alone people - but careful examination showed it was a subset of those who agreed exactly with dhulqarnain ie. PRIEST_BOKMEI's ideas.
He added me too back then, though we disagreed on quite a few matters, maybe he thought I was agreeing with him like he thought Wakas was on the other thread wink I second millitant behaviour not being tolerated. These misrepresentations are a serious issue and need to be dealt with.
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salam pb,
The likely reason people do not like to discuss with you after a while, is because it becomes more and more obvious that you are agenda driven.
So true. See my appraisal and warning...
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4359
You make a big deal about wakas agreeing with you, (which ironically enough turned out not to be true), while it is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT how many people agree or disagree with you... truth is truth, regardless of popularity.
PRIEST_BOKMEI = dhulqarnain (banned twice before).
This reminds me of "dhulqarnain"'s list thread s/he started attempting to compile a group of people who believed in the same dogmas s/he did. On the face of it, it was Quran only/God alone people - but careful examination showed it was a subset of those who agreed exactly with dhulqarnain ie. PRIEST_BOKMEI's ideas.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1230
PB If people would simply accept 1+1=2, then, there would be no need to repaeat things.
Spoken like a true dogmatist.
1+1=2 would be a good statement, if PRIEST_BOKMEI aka DHULQARNANE could make it. Instead you'll just get....
1+1... 1+1... 1+1 over and over.
The misquotations are an issue and another example has been found.
This disgusting behaviour by PRIEST_BOKMEI aka DHULQARNANE is in my view something that should not be tolerated given the atrocious reputation of this individual.
Unfortunately, the newer or less experienced people are being sucked into agenda driven 'discussions' with this character.
Peace/
LOL! Man, have I ever struck fear deep into your dark heart, for you to be so obssessed/consumed by me and to keep up this bizarre and shaitanic crusade to defame me. You've lost all bearing and are simply making fool of yourself. With each subsequent post, you tell one and all, how afraid and defeated, as result of my arguments, you are..er..let me correct that...Allah's arguments, which I've articulated well, all praises due to Allah. You are a very envious, fear ridden, petty, and shallow individual. Indeed, it must be very painful/ugly being you.
"truth', here's another fact for you....there is no...truth in you....
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These misrepresentations are a serious issue and need to be dealt with.
Then let's deal with them.
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Then let's deal with them.
Excellent choice. Maybe you would like to start explaining why you are misrepresenting people when they themselves say they disagree with you and have been misquoted/misrepresented?!?
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Then let's deal with them.
Excellent choice. Maybe you would like to start explaining why you are misrepresenting people when they themselves say they disagree with you and have been misquoted/misrepresented?!?
I have no idea what you are talking about, so, why don't you give me an example of what you mean. Better yet, start a thread o it so we don't derail this thread, cool?
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I have no idea what you are talking about, so, why don't you give me an example of what you mean. Better yet, start a thread o it so we don't derail this thread, cool?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4359&start=25