Free will or determinism ?
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Khi- Salam sister. We r here coz we all rebelled against GOD or did something wrong in one way or another just like Adam n Eve were sent down 2 this earth coz of eating from a forbidden tree. This world is our last chance 2 redeem ourselves. GOD Bless!
khizar,
4111
And who acquires/carries a sin/crime , so he carries it on himself, and God was/is wise/judicious.6164
Say "Is other than God I desire as a Lord? And He is Lord of every thing, and every self does not earn/gather except on it, and no sinner/burdener carries/bears (the) load/weight (of) another, then to your Lord (is) your return, so He informs you with what you were in it differing/disagreeing ."5338-39
No sinner/burdener bears/carries another's sin/burden. And that there is nothing to man except what he strived/endeavored. -
Dear JM,
I have skimmed through the article written by Ahmad Shafaat.
He has done a good deal of thinking, but even though he touches some crucial points, he starts out with the assumption that God is a creature.
Through such an assumption God is separated from the Universe and the Universe only contains what God has created.According to the Qur?an, God is ?closer to you than your jugular vein?, and God is aware of any detail that occurs whether it is in the Macro- or Micro-Cosmos. How can that be possible if God is not part of the Universe, maybe not as a creature but as a power?
Determinism exists, definitely, but is it in such a way that everything in the World is following any whim, or change of mind, from a creator, or in such a way that reactions are the determined results of actions?
We may also ask ?Does God actually have a free will??
Or is God the ultimate eternal power that has always worked in the same way, and can never be changed?
The Qur?an mentions also that God never changes. It also repeatedly mentions something like ?if God willed??.?, but seemingly does not do.Mr Shafaat assumes that God is functioning in an accidental manner. If this is so, can we persuade God to change the line of reactions to our actions?
The Qur?an states that this is not so, God does not change anything unless we, ourselves, do.Best regards
Ali Omar
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Hello All,
An Omniscient God does not allow for Free Will. To give humans Free Will God needs to limit His omniscient.
Perhaps definition of Omniscient needs to be changed.
Regards,
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X committed a crime. Did X commit the crime or did God?
X lied. Did X lie or did God?
X raped Y. Did X rape Y or did God?I think trying to portray that human beings have no will to do anything is really perverted. Humans beings must take responsibility for their actions, not just point to God for their misbehaviours.
Anwar Azim
Is not our will, my will, God's will? Did I throw or God, or is there a God besides God?
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Peace,
I believe that time doesn't exist for God, thus I'm saying God knows ALL, that he knows when we screw up.
HOWEVER, an event isn't an event until it has taken place.
Get my drift??
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Peace,
I believe that time doesn't exist for God, thus I'm saying God knows ALL, that he knows when we screw up.That's what Ominiscient means regardless whether time exists for God or not. God knows everything and as result there is no room for Free Will.
Regards,
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khizar,
4111
And who acquires/carries a sin/crime , so he carries it on himself, and God was/is wise/judicious.6164
Say "Is other than God I desire as a Lord? And He is Lord of every thing, and every self does not earn/gather except on it, and no sinner/burdener carries/bears (the) load/weight (of) another, then to your Lord (is) your return, so He informs you with what you were in it differing/disagreeing ."5338-39
No sinner/burdener bears/carries another's sin/burden. And that there is nothing to man except what he strived/endeavored.Khi- Salam. U didnt understand. Adam n Eve r just exampples. We ALL SINNED BY OURSELVES OTHERWISE WE WLDNT BE HERE N YES WE ALL R RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR SINS NOT ADAM'S OR EVE'S so no need 2 show those verses 2 me. Thanku. GOD Bless!
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Peace Anwar
X committed a crime. Did X commit the crime or did God?
X lied. Did X lie or did God?
X raped Y. Did X rape Y or did God?If X commited the act and not God then you need to reflect deeper on what this reading means when it asks Is there a God besides God?
I think trying to portray that human beings have no will to do anything is really perverted. Humans beings must take responsibility for their actions, not just point to God for their misbehaviours.
What I was saying is that God just is. Whatever we do is inline with God's will as it is all experience, how does one grow in wisdom if not through experience?
Whatever thoughts we have harboured where did they come from, if not God then who?
When we judge our thoughts as good or bad we limit our thought process, our expansion into a greater reality, when we judge our thoughts we incidentally are judging ourself, when we judge ourself we are judging God.
Who can grant us forgiveness but ourselves?
peace,
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Khi- Salam. U didnt understand. Adam n Eve r just exampples. We ALL SINNED BY OURSELVES OTHERWISE WE WLDNT BE HERE N YES WE ALL R RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR SINS NOT ADAM'S OR EVE'S so no need 2 show those verses 2 me. Thanku. GOD Bless!
Oops, my mistake then. Sorry I misunderstood you.
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When you say "here", do you mean Earth? Do you believe that you sinned before being born?
Khi- Salam. Yep i surely believe so otherwise i wldnt be here. GOD Bless!
I retract my comment above. Turns out I didn't misunderstand you. I thought people are born innocent?
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Peace,
I believe that time doesn't exist for God, thus I'm saying God knows ALL, that he knows when we screw up.That's what Ominiscient means regardless whether time exists for God or not. God knows everything and as result there is no room for Free Will.
Regards,
Peace,
There is room fro free will.
See I've added in, an event isn't an event until it happens.
We are given the chance to make a different choice, and either we do or don't.
This is free will.
It's like those "choose your own adevntures book", you know where both choices are going but it doesn't happen until you make that choice.
Notice it is always YOU making that choice.
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It's like those "choose your own adevntures book", you know where both choices are going but it doesn't happen until you make that choice.
Notice it is always YOU making that choice.We have reached this position in many threads on Free Will. And the next question that comes is Does God know which choices we will make? If so then there is no Free Will...
Regards,
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Greetings,
If X commited the act and not God then you need to reflect deeper on what this reading means when it asks Is there a God besides God?
X committing the act and not God does not say that there is another God besides God. Simply because X has (or should I say, been given) the capacity to act right or wrong. I suggest that you reflect even "deeper", better yet, reflect holistically.
What I was saying is that God just is. Whatever we do is inline with God's will as it is all experience, how does one grow in wisdom if not through experience?
If God is actually committing the act of rape and not X, then this God has to be unjust, no matter how much wisdom you throw in. According to your wise thinking, all those who commit attrocities/crimes should go scott free and shouldn't be held accountable for their crimes and let the innocent suffer! The innocent should be happy instead of suffering because it is God who is suffering and not them. !
Anwar Azim
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Hello again Lote
Why do you say that if god knows what you're going to do there can be no free will ? God knowing what we will do (because as i supposed above time doesn't exist for god as it does for us) doesn't mean that it is not we who make our choices. Could you elaborate ?
Elke
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Peace Anwar
X committing the act and not God does not say that there is another God besides God. Simply because X has (or should I say, been given) the capacity to act right or wrong. I suggest that you reflect even "deeper", better yet, reflect holistically.
Think on this (as will I), to do the most 'minimal' of tasks requires God, the life force flowing through all that is. You do not commit any act, as 'You' is only a narrow perspective on things, in reality God is all there is and all thought that we draw from is God.
When we judge an action we limit the thoughts that our mind will embrace, is thought not God? Then embrace all thought to become unlimited in our very being, do not judge thought if you wish to open your mind.
If God is actually committing the act of rape and not X, then this God has to be unjust, no matter how much wisdom you throw in.
Look at anything you see and tell me is there more or less God in any of what you see. If there is more God in any act or space then what is the rest if not God. This is why I ask the question Is there a God besides God?
Tell me how is rape wrong and how is rape right? For right to exist so must wrong, if God is right then what besides God is wrong?
According to your wise thinking, all those who commit attrocities/crimes should go scott free and shouldn't be held accountable for their crimes and let the innocent suffer!
What ever one experiences is because they have chosen to experience. We are here right now because we chose to be here, one who fears rape will inevatibly draw this onto their self, when one confronts their fears peace is the natural outcome.
On earth we experience our thoughts manifested, whatever we experience was a thought we harboured.
The innocent should be happy instead of suffering because it is God who is suffering and not them. !
The innocent will be innocent if thats what they hold their self to be as we become what we think.
And please tell me who is not happy on this plane here, for all are expressing their self; wether they desire to express sorrow, joy, anger, love, hate or laughter is thier choice. If we did not express our selves we would die.
peace,