Are we all One?
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I disagree.
The Qur'an does not teach pantheism IIRC. The Creator is not the same entity as the creature. God is not the universe.
So God is another separate Creature?
Where did this this Creature come from?I agree that God is One, but that does not mean that God is Everything.
We are part of this ONE.
Regards,
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peace All,
I think these are some deep questions. I agree with what most said, in that if The God is everywhere, it does mean The God is everything.
You can liken it to Big Brother (if you've ever watched the TV shows), in them Big Brother sees/hears all, i.e. Big Brother is everywhere, but it does not mean Big Brother is everything.
The way I see it, we are all connected to the source/whole. That is why we are asked to increase our knowledge, observe nature etc. as all of these are sources of information, they are all connections... which ultimately lead to the soucre/whole.
Wakas
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I disagree.
The Qur'an does not teach pantheism IIRC. The Creator is not the same entity as the creature. God is not the universe.
So God is another separate Creature?
Where did this this Creature come from?No, God is the Creator, al-Khalaq. The Qur'an is clear on this. If we're talking logic or philosophy, we could do the reductio ad absurdum, asking who created God and who created the creator of God. But I will refrain from that and stick with the axiom that God is the creator.
I agree that God is One, but that does not mean that God is Everything.
We are part of this ONE.
Regards,
Verses to back up your pantheistic position please.
As for mine, 397 can be interpreted as God being separate and independent from the worlds.
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As for mine, 397 can be interpreted as God being separate and independent from the worlds.
So God is a separte being?
Is that why angels take upto 50,000 years to travel to God?Regards,
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Hello Lote Tree
Is that why angels take upto 50,000 years to travel to God?
Where did you take that from ?
Peace,
ElkeHello Elke,
- The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years.
I am sure you can provide a better explanation for this above?
But the point I was making was that God being a separate "SUPREME BEING". This is a very limiting understanding of what God is. Being implies he is like us but bigger and more powerful. And also it implies he is another "object" tagged on to the Universe and therefore can be verified by rational means. The reality that we call "God" is beyond Language and Reason.
Regards,
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Hi Lote
you said
The reality that we call "God" is beyond Language and Reason.I agree because i'm unable to take a position on this. I do agree with idolfree, that a part of us is from god - al ruh - and that this is the part that never dies...but i also agree with zenje , we are all god's creature - created by god... and interconnected.
Everyway you turn there is god face - what mean that god is outside...
God is closer to you than you're jugular vein - would mean he is inside...
the universes fit in his right hand - would mean he is a separate being or power... (as you see, always the same problem with me, am unable to number the verses i cite...)I really believe that there are somethings we are just unable to truly understand - part of the mystery i really wish we will understand on qiyama, an yasha allah;
Bye, Elke
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The reality that we call "God" is beyond Language and Reason.
I really believe that there are somethings we are just unable to truly understand
This is the truth that we all accept. Trying to put in limited mortal words, or fathom God is an exercise in futility.
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The reality that we call "God" is beyond Language and Reason.
I really believe that there are somethings we are just unable to truly understand
This is the truth that we all accept. Trying to put in limited mortal words, or fathom God is an exercise in futility.
You say this and yet you assert Scripture is very word of God?
How does that work?Regards,
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Meditate on it. wink
I have zenje for two years. And I say you can't -)
Regards,
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Peace be upon you Waqaas,
I think these are some deep questions. I agree with what most said, in that if The God is everywhere, it does mean The God is everything.
You can liken it to Big Brother (if you've ever watched the TV shows), in them Big Brother sees/hears all, i.e. Big Brother is everywhere, but it does not mean Big Brother is everything.
I take it you meant in the first part of the quote that God being everywhere, doesn't mean The God is everything. I disagree with that notion, because being everywhere in the literal sense, must mean everything. On the other hand, I cannot say what the exact words of the scripture are, does God say that he is Everywhere in the Quran, or rather does it merely say in the Scripture that God is all Seeing All Hearing. If it says the latter, then your Big brother analogy works fine. That is most likely the case in my opinion. I've been looking at the word Everywhere from too much of a literal point of view. I am going to look at the verses of the Quran on this topic, when I have a chance.
The way I see it, we are all connected to the source/whole. That is why we are asked to increase our knowledge, observe nature etc. as all of these are sources of information, they are all connections... which ultimately lead to the soucre/whole.
Yes this is also the way I am looking at it... I cannot yet accept that we are all One, because in reality that would mean all this talking back and forth is futile. I believe we are all connected in some way, but we are still separate at the same time. But really, how are we separate from the Universe? do we merely come into this world, and say oh look I'm in a body like thing so this is me, and the rest of the world is external. Couldn't we also come into the world, and say oh look, I am the universe. To me it seems that it is only our perspective that makes us seem separate. Unfortunately, I cannot reconcile this, with my views, that we aren't all One.
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I have zenje for two years. And I say you can't
Well, you know what they say about opinions, right? Give it some more time, breathe and open your heart to it. tranceIt is not just my heart I opened but my whole soul to it. The Reality of God cant be put into words, the more you meditate more you realise this fact -) but as you say this can change but I doubt it.
(and i need to get hold of these funky emotions icons soooooooooooon!!!!!!! -)
regards,
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Peace be upon you Peace,
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Great thread. The God is everywhere, but that does not follow that we are "God", but what it DOES mean is that we are PART OF THE GOD. Just like your finger is part of you, but the finger cannot say, I am "Idolfree1", or "Peace" etc.Yes you are right, and I think this is what Zenje was trying to get across to me; God being everywhere doesn't mean that we are God, it means we are from God or a part of God.
Correct. Just like a drop of water in the ocean, we are not the ocean but a part of it.
Here is where I start having problems though... is there anything else besides God?
No! Absolutely not. There is only the illusion that there is other than the God.
If not, then doesnt that really mean we are God.
No. Is one of the cells of your body "YOU"? Each cell has its own exsistence, getting nutrients, making energy, getting rid of waste, etc. Yet all of your cells work together as "YOU".
Its easier to think of the God as being the Ultimate center of Mind, and physical matter springs out from that center. We have to cultivate an INWARD LOOKING perception.
Are we created from anything else, besides God so to speak? I think I'm starting to see where my understanding is flawed, perhaps, I'm trying too hard to understand God from the perspective of our universal laws, please give me your insights into these questions.
Think of everythng being MENTAL, the God being the Ultimate MIND. We are thoughts in this Ultimate Mind, Ultimate intelligence. When we purify ourselves of the illusion of seperation, we can gain access to this Ultimate Intelligence of which we belong, just as a drop of rain adds to a hurricane that tears a town apart, Or to a river that powers a dam.
You used the analogy of a finger being part of me, but the finger cannot say it is me. I agree with this. But let me use a different analogy.
Let us assume that I am everywhere; meaning I am at every point, at every moment, in every thing. Now my body is made up of cells, but since I am everywhere, I must be at every point in my cells... so my cells must be wholly me. How can this be? IF my cells are completely made up of me, then wouldnt the cell say it is me?The cell is "You" in Quality , Yes, but not Quantity D And in the same manner, we have the attributes of the God within us , in QUALITY, not QUANTITY, What the God as Supreme Being can do by saying "Be", it takes us the passing of TIME to accomplish. But it is all the God working through man, this is how man SERVES the God, man is the God's vehicle of consciousness(ruh). That is why many readings(quran) state that man is made in the image of the God, or according to the Pattern of the God, etc.
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Hamlet is a manifestation of Shakespeare, a thought in Shakespeares mind, a story concieved, so Hamlet is a PART of Shakespeare, but Hmalet cannot say "I am shakespeare".Okay, so with this analogy, Shakespeare is Hamlet+ King Lear+ Romeo and Juliet + many other aspects that all make up Shakespeare... Do you then mean God is Humans+ Universe (I guess that includes humans) + many other things?
Absolutely, The Physical World is only the DENSEST part of the God, like the shell of a snail that was created by secretions.
But what is there besides God?
Nothing. D
If God is everywhere, then every bit of me is God, so only God exists.
Correct, to the God ALONE are we returning! D Ultimate Unity! Peace! Peace! is the greeting therein.
Every bit of the universe is God. Once again I'm probably just losing my marbles... It's really hard for me to grasp the idea that God is everywhere, but there exists something at the same time that makes up God.
Please reprase that last question, I did not understand it.
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I must not beat around the bush with what I am trying to say so I will say it, we are CONSCIOUSNESS ITSELF! All of us are ONE CONSCIOUSNESS. The consciousness that is in me is the VERY SAME consciousness that is in you. This consciousness is the GOD WITHIN, our innermost SELF. It is this consciousness that is BLOWN into the body that causes us to be ALIVE, but this consciousness if from the ONE GOD, so it is the very same. Just as we all breath the VERY SAME "air" which is ionized by the very same SUN. We are unified at the highest level WITHIN, but have the illusion of seperateness outside. So our journey is within, to relize true ONENESS and with ONENESS comes true PEACE, because there cannot be war when there is no other.I think you've gotten to the real heart of the matter. There cannot be war when there is no other. There cannot be arrogance, or Jealousy, Hate, or even Love. When we come to this realization that we are all One, then we realize there is no Other. If I say we are all connected in some way.. then we are still in reality separate entities. We are not One with each other. Being One with you, literally means I am you, if I am One with the Universe, then I am the Universe...Lonely indeed.
Yes, that would be lonely wouldn't it? The Experience of Life , with all its experience tools (5 known senses) sounds like it would be stimulating. Stimilulating enough to start the vibration of the Energy/matter at rest(Ultimate Peace). We are the vehicles of the God's experience. We are both One and Many at the same time, so we have to learn how to balance "Heaven and Earth". and we do that through the Process(Al salaat) of meditation, at dawn and dusk, when the say and night merge. The importance of the seperation side(earth) is so that "Heaven" can come down and command experience. If we are too much in heaven, the messenger behind us calling us back, then we lose touch with our worldy lives, if we are too much "earth" then we are slaves to emotions and sensations, you cannot transcend them and are thus trapped.
But then, what is the point of this communication? I am One with you. If I am One with Buddha, or Jesus, then that means I've already come to this conclusion of being One with everything.
Remember? D Thats all we are being asked to do, just remember it. D
Well, I hope you've made some sense of this... I can't communicate my thoughts as clearly as I'd like. But if we are truly One, then I'd just be talking to myself.
Its like the brain cells communicating with the finger cells to type this message, we are the One manifest through many. The first message to the people from ALL of the Prophets was that "There is no god but THE GOD", it is also the last statement of Jacob to his children, "will you follow other god's besides THE GOD after I die"? That is to say, we must be WHOLISTIC in all we think and do. This resolves all ills.
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Peace be upon you Andya,
No, God is the Creator, al-Khalaq. The Qur'an is clear on this. If we're talking logic or philosophy, we could do the reductio ad absurdum, asking who created God and who created the creator of God. But I will refrain from that and stick with the axiom that God is the creator.
It will help you to think of the God as the Ultimate Mind, the HIDDEN Intelligence that all physical matter secretes from. The God creates from WITHIN US, not from Outside us. Its just a shift in perspective that makes all the difference in understanding this.
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Peace be upon you Idolfree,
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, I feel you have truly helped me to understand this.
Correct. Just like a drop of water in the ocean, we are not the ocean but a part of it.
This makes sense now to me. Alone we are simply drops of water, but altogether we are the ocean. What then is Good and Bad? How then do we have Heaven and Hell? Would Hell simply be not coming to the realization that we are part of the ocean... and heaven be like a drop of water coming to the realization that it is part of this ocean? Doing good leading up to this realization, and doing bad driving us away from it.
No. Is one of the cells of your body "YOU"? Each cell has its own exsistence, getting nutrients, making energy, getting rid of waste, etc. Yet all of your cells work together as "YOU".
Its easier to think of the God as being the Ultimate center of Mind, and physical matter springs out from that center. We have to cultivate an INWARD LOOKING perception.
I suppose No, one cell cannot be me. The only part I think that is causing me trouble with this analogy, is that I'm not everywhere. If I was everywhere, wouldn't I be in my cell.
If God were the ultimate center of mind, would our universe simply be a thought, so to speak?
Or are we like pieces of a puzzle, each piece is different, but together they form a whole?
Think of everythng being MENTAL, the God being the Ultimate MIND. We are thoughts in this Ultimate Mind, Ultimate intelligence. When we purify ourselves of the illusion of seperation, we can gain access to this Ultimate Intelligence of which we belong, just as a drop of rain adds to a hurricane that tears a town apart, Or to a river that powers a dam.
LOL well I think you've answered my last question about us being thoughts in this analogy. This has helped my understanding.
The cell is "You" in Quality , Yes, but not Quantity And in the same manner, we have the attributes of the God within us , in QUALITY, not QUANTITY, What the God as Supreme Being can do by saying "Be", it takes us the passing of TIME to accomplish. But it is all the God working through man, this is how man SERVES the God, man is the God's vehicle of consciousness(ruh). That is why many readings(quran) state that man is made in the image of the God, or according to the Pattern of the God, etc.
Hmm... but why does God need a vehicle of consciousness? God is free of all needs. I guess though I can look at it like creating music, why do we create music, or Art? Because the act of creating music, and Art is the reason in itself. I once heard a lecture, and I remember that the person said, why do we dance? We dont dance to get somewhere or for a point. We simply dance for the fun of it. However, I need to think on this.
Yes, that would be lonely wouldn't it? The Experience of Life , with all its experience tools (5 known senses) sounds like it would be stimulating. Stimilulating enough to start the vibration of the Energy/matter at rest(Ultimate Peace). We are the vehicles of the God's experience. We are both One and Many at the same time, so we have to learn how to balance "Heaven and Earth". and we do that through the Process(Al salaat) of meditation, at dawn and dusk, when the say and night merge. The importance of the seperation side(earth) is so that "Heaven" can come down and command experience.If we are too much in heaven, the messenger behind us calling us back, then we lose touch with our worldy lives , if we are too much "earth" then we are slaves to emotions and sensations, you cannot transcend them and are thus trapped.
I had trouble understanding the bold part of your writing. Can you explain? I understand that if we are too much earth then we are slaves to our emotions and sensations, and I guess we'll never come to the realization that we're all part of a whole. But I do not understand how we can be too much in heaven.
Remember? Thats all we are being asked to do, just remember it.
Yes we remember it, but why do we forget it? How many times do we come to this same conclusion?
Its like the brain cells communicating with the finger cells to type this message, we are the One manifest through many. The first message to the people from ALL of the Prophets was that "There is no god but THE GOD", it is also the last statement of Jacob to his children, "will you follow other god's besides THE GOD after I die"? That is to say, we must be WHOLISTIC in all we think and do. This resolves all ills.
But what then happens with those who choose to forget this message? Whether they like it or not they are part of a whole.... If they kill people, and cause problems in the universe, they are affecting all the parts of whole arent they?
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My train of thought though is the following
Everywhere means every single point, at every single time, in the Universe, and in places we don't know. This means that God is in (poor choice of words) every single part of me. Does that not mean everything? Once again, is there anything else besides God? If lets say God is part of me, but not every part of me, then what is this part that isn't God?salam peace .
"everything" and "everywhere" would not be the same . and God is not every single part of us . lets take a look at the verse zenje quoted ....No three people can meet secretly without Him being their fourth, nor five without Him being the sixth, nor less than that, nor more, without Him being there with them wherever they may be.
no three ppl can meet secretely with God being the fourth one . God will not be every part or some part of those three ppl but the fourth one . that means God is seperate from them . what do u think ?
and thank u zenje .peace .
fahad. -
As for mine, 397 can be interpreted as God being separate and independent from the worlds.
So God is a separate being?
Is that why angels take upto 50,000 years to travel to God?Regards,
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Yes, I believe God is a separate being based on my interpretation of 397 and some other verses like chapter 112.
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Perhaps.
But I've yet to see the verses you use to back your pantheistic idea.
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