-=[ Who are Bani Israel? ]=-
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Salam Bender!
I think the verse you're reffering to simply means, those who carried with Noah (Period). AND abraham... etc.
Thus God is simply putting them and their lineage in the spotlight as being favoured/picked
Peace, and may the Lord God grant us wisdom to understand in all things pr
Blessed is God, knower of all secretes and declarations! -
Salaaman Bender,
No problem with me, I? am also a little bit slow with answering so we are even now handshake
Thanks handshake this is ofcourse an advantage to me )
I believe that it is certainly possible, it?s only very time consuming.
Yes I think the same about patterns and designs of AlQuraan's aayaats. But I think, it is necessary without it, it is not possible to get to the correct understanding.
I don?t know if I understood correctly. Could you please give in the next sentence colors to the parts that you think are relating "...and from among those whom We carried with Noah AND from seed of Ibrahim and Israel..."
Please give the same color to the parts you think have a relationship.I got confuse in 1958, specially in "....wa min zurriyati Ibraheema wa Israeela...." I think we are taking it wrong brother because
3132
3132 And obey Allah and the messenger so that you may obtain mercy.This does not mean "obey Allah and OBEY the messenger", because when Allah wanted to say so, He said it.
592
592 And obey Allah and obey the messenger, and be aware. If you turn away then know that it is the duty of Our messenger to deliver clearly.So, when He said "Israeel" in 1958 the simply means "Israeel" and does not mean "seed of Israeel" as per the above said. And I am waiting to understand 8719 from Allah.
Hmmm? why do you think Meryem was not a nabi if 1958 is referring to the anbiyas mentioned in the verses 191-57?
Only male are send as Rasools and I think all nabis are also male as per the list given in 683-87 and said that they all were Nabiyeen in 689.
Also note verse 2191-92 it is said that she and her son belong to same umma as the persons mentioned in the verses 2148-91 Musa, Haroen, Ibrahim, Ishaaq, Yaqoob, Lut, Nuh, Dawoed, Sulaymen, Ayuub, Ismail, Idries, Zol-Kifl Zonnoen, Zachariya and she who kept her ?fawzj? and her son (I assume Meryem and Isa, who else???).
What umma is meant in 1292? I think the umma of the anbiya.
Maybe this discussion belongs in the other thread, the thread A WOMAN AS A MESSENGER.As per my understanding the word "Umma(t)" means people of same understanding, lets say there are 10 men in a group but 3 got the same understanding, other 2 are same and rest of them are of same understanding, that means there are three ummats, one of 2 people, other is of 3 and another of 5 people. This is how I understand the word umma.
Please note also this verse 2537
Nuh was not the only rasuul to his people, there were other rasuuls with him.Also see the following from chapter 37
78
79
80
81
82Could Ibrahim be one of the anbiya and rusoels with Nuh hmm
Not only people of Noah but also 'Aad, Thamood, Looth, Ashaabul Aiyka disbelieved messengers.
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26141
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26176I don't know about Ibraheem being one of Noah's group, still has to get the correct understanding of the word "Shi'aa" in 3783.
Another question Do you think Israel was a person with Nuh on the boat or Israel were the ones with Nuh on the boat?
I myself think that he was not a person but the people with Nuh on the boat.If I understand correct then this part of 1958 ??the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and (seed of) Israel?
Can be read as
??the seed of Adam and ISRAEL, and of the seed of Abraham and (seed of) Israel? If we replace ?those whom We carried with Noah? with ?Israel?. This makes sense to me and is not contradicting 172-3I hope you understand why I have replaced "Israel" with ?those whom We carried with Noah?. IF according to 172-3 "Bani Israel" are "The seed of those whom We carried with Noah? THEN "Israel" must be "those whom We carried with Noah"
The only ?problem? left is ayaat 393
It looks like Israel is in this ayaat a person, but I think it?s is here also ?those whom we carried with Nuh? only it is used as a collective (in the grammar I mean), and that?s why in my opinion it looks like it is a person.Israeel is a person. He is mentioned in AlQuraan only twice in 393 and 1958.
What do you think? If in Arabic Quran a collective is used the same way as a singular then I think we have solved the problem. And there for ?Israel? is NOT Jacob but Those who were with Nuh on the boat AND ?Bani Israel? are not the Jews but all the people of the world. And this makes in my opinion really sense if we read all the ayaats were Bani Israel are mentioned in The Quran.
393
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful.""NafsiHI" is the keyword in 393 "HI" always refers to masculine if it would have "HA" instead, then it may refer to feminine or a group.
May Allah increase us in knowledge guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaaman Bender,
Thanks handshake this is ofcourse an advantage to me
Salaam brother,
I got confuse in 1958, specially in "....wa min zurriyati Ibraheema wa Israeela...." I think we are taking it wrong brother because
3132
3132 And obey Allah and the messenger so that you may obtain mercy.This does not mean "obey Allah and OBEY the messenger", because when Allah wanted to say so, He said it.
592
592 And obey Allah and obey the messenger, and be aware. If you turn away then know that it is the duty of Our messenger to deliver clearly.So, when He said "Israeel" in 1958 the simply means "Israeel" and does not mean "seed of Israeel" as per the above said. And I am waiting to understand 8719 from Allah.
I have a ?new? understanding for 1958, insjaAllah I will post this ?new? understanding in the next post, I like first to hear from you what you think about my next questions.
You showed me 3132 and 592, and I have to agree for the moment with your reasoning. But I have a question about verse 56. I really like to know how you do your washing for the sallaat. ? Do you wash your arms to the elbows or not? If you do indeed wash you arms to the elbows, can you explain to me what the difference is with the examples you gave me (3132 and 592). And also how do we have to interpret verses like ? There are more examples, but for the moment I really like to know how you read such verses.
By the way, look at this verse 333 Here Allah uses the same logic as you pointed out in 3132 and 592.
Only male are send as Rasools and I think all nabis are also male as per the list given in 683-87 and said that they all were Nabiyeen in 689.
But the list of nabi?s mentioned in 683-87 is not complete, for example Mohammed and Idries are missing, they were also nabi?s but not mentioned in 683-87.
If you can proof that a rasool is by default a nabi then you are right (or an straightforward proof). If not then I think we can?t take Meryem out of the list of the nabi?s because of 191-58.As per my understanding the word "Umma(t)" means people of same understanding, lets say there are 10 men in a group but 3 got the same understanding, other 2 are same and rest of them are of same understanding, that means there are three ummats, one of 2 people, other is of 3 and another of 5 people. This is how I understand the word umma.
I had as definition a group of people who have something in common, not especially "same understanding". I think your definition is more precise, thanks
Not only people of Noah but also 'Aad, Thamood, Looth, Ashaabul Aiyka disbelieved messengers.
26105
26123
26141
26160
26176I don't know about Ibraheem being one of Noah's group, still has to get the correct understanding of the word "Shi'aa" in 3783.
a study for next time insjaAllah
Israeel is a person. He is mentioned in AlQuraan only twice in 393 and 1958.
393
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful.""NafsiHI" is the keyword in 393 "HI" always refers to masculine if it would have "HA" instead, then it may refer to feminine or a group.
Ok thanks for clarifying this to me, I have to agree with this.
But what is the relationship between Israel and Bani Israel?
From 172-3 we know Bani Israel = Thurrijati of those who were carried with Nuh (thus more then 1 person who where with Nuh on the boat)
From 1958 and 393 we know Israel = a person (1 person)
I find it very hard to see some logic in this. If you have an idea how we can understand this then please share, I find it very confusing.May Allah increase our knowledge
Salaam brotherBy the way. I hope I?m not bothering you with all of this. For me it?s like this 1860 InsjaAllah that moment will come soon and I can feel like this muscle
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I have a ?new? understanding for 1958, insjaAllah I will post this ?new? understanding in the next post, I like first to hear from you what you think about my next questions.
Salaaman brother,
I would love to know you 'new' understanding.
You showed me 3132 and 592, and I have to agree for the moment with your reasoning. But I have a question about verse 56. I really like to know how you do your washing for the sallaat. ? Do you wash your arms to the elbows or not? If you do indeed wash you arms to the elbows, can you explain to me what the difference is with the examples you gave me (3132 and 592). And also how do we have to interpret verses like ? There are more examples, but for the moment I really like to know how you read such verses.
You caught me there... )
I was suppose to quote you 56 after getting your reply of my previous post, anyway, I am totally off on this now, I don't have any answer, just waiting for Allah's clarification.
Yes you are right brother, there are many more such examples.
By the way, look at this verse 333 Here Allah uses the same logic as you pointed out in 3132 and 592.
Correct! This is how I think there is a difference between these patterns. There is surely some reason behind using such way. InshaAllah, Allah will show us if He only wills.
But the list of nabi?s mentioned in 683-87 is not complete, for example Mohammed and Idries are missing, they were also nabi?s but not mentioned in 683-87.
Thank you brother, I agree with you. In fact I was having something in my mind about Mohammed being not mentioned in that list, but about Idrees... -\
One thing I wanted to add here is who are mentioned in 683-87 are all "Al Nabiyeen" and Idrees in 1956 is just a "Nabi" without "Al". What do you think on this?
If you can proof that a rasool is by default a nabi then you are right (or an straightforward proof). If not then I think we can?t take Meryem out of the list of the nabi?s because of 191-58.
Rasool and Nabi are not same and I don't believe that Rasool is by default a Nabi. I am taking out Maryam from the list of 191-57 because 1958 also talks about Nabiyeen and Israeel is also mentioned in the list, that means he is also a Nabi? Don't have any idea. He might be a Nabi as mentioned in 1958. I would like to know your view on this.
Ok thanks for clarifying this to me, I have to agree with this.
But what is the relationship between Israel and Bani Israel?
From 172-3 we know Bani Israel = Thurrijati of those who were carried with Nuh (thus more then 1 person who where with Nuh on the boat)
From 1958 and 393 we know Israel = a person (1 person)
I find it very hard to see some logic in this. If you have an idea how we can understand this then please share, I find it very confusing.I understand it as follows
Israeel = 1 person
Israeel's sons = Bani Israeel
Noah came to Bani Israeel and the ones who believed with Noah came with him on the ship made by Noah, others died in the flood.
People carried on ship are Bani Israeel and their children called as zurriyat of people who where carried on the ship.
But I don't have any proof of Israeel came before Noah (
By the way. I hope I?m not bothering you with all of this. For me it?s like this 1860 ) InsjaAllah that moment will come soon and I can feel like this muscle
No way brother, please don't think so, I am learning a lot from you. BTW, your example of 1860 is very nice yes
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaaman brother,
I would love to know you 'new' understanding.
Salaam brother,
This is my new understanding.
I think we are focusing on the wrong word. Why should Allah say the nabiyien from the seed of Adam and the nabiyien from the seed of Ibrahim etc. Are the nabiyien of the seed of Ibrahim not all ready included in the nabiyien from the seed of Adam? I think 1958 is not talking about the nabiyien but about the ones who Allah favored.
For the moment I still don?t know how to split this verse in groups. Do we have to split the groups by the word ?WA? or do we have to split the groups by the words ?MIN and WAMIMAN?
If we split the groups by ?MIN an WAMIMAN? then we have to read it like this.A
If we have to split the groups by ?WA? then we have to read it like this.
BI hope you understand what I mean.
Correct! This is how I think there is a difference between these patterns. There is surely some reason behind using such way. InshaAllah, Allah will show us if He only wills.
I believe that if we have to read 1958 as A (see above) then it?s ?seed of Israel? and if we have to read it as B (see above) then it?s simply ?Israel?.
If we can identify all the ayaats like 333 and 592 then we can learn the wisdom behind this InsjaAllah and thus learn how we have to read ayaats like 1958 (?Israel? OR ?seed of Israel?).
Thank you brother, I agree with you. In fact I was having something in my mind about Mohammed being not mentioned in that list, but about Idrees... -\
One thing I wanted to add here is who are mentioned in 683-87 are all "Al Nabiyeen" and Idrees in 1956 is just a "Nabi" without "Al". What do you think on this?
hmmm, i think the other way around. I think there is only one Al Nabi and the rest are Nabi without Al. Whom of this nabiyien is The Nabi, I don?t know. Maybe I?m wrong on this, but I couldn?t find an aya were one of the nabiens is called Al Nabi.
The Nabi is also The Rasool I believe, please read 7157
We can find to who this Al Rasoel - Al Nabi is referring in The Taurat and in The Indjiel.
Maybe, maybe (I?m not sure about this), it?s prophet and rasoel Ibrahim peace be upon him. Please read 368 .
You can read that ayaat in two ways I think. To who is ?wahatha Al Nabi? referring? To Ibrahim or to some else? If someone else then who? please correct me if you think that I?m wrong.Rasool and Nabi are not same and I don't believe that Rasool is by default a Nabi. I am taking out Maryam from the list of 191-57 because 1958 also talks about Nabiyeen and Israeel is also mentioned in the list, that means he is also a Nabi? Don't have any idea. He might be a Nabi as mentioned in 1958. I would like to know your view on this.
yes I also believe that rasoel and nabi are 2 different "things", but if an rasool is by default an nabi or vice versa i don't know.
As said above I think that 1958 is about the ones Allah favored not about nabiyien. Thus I believe that Meryem was one of the nabiyien, but Israel I don?t know. Maybe he was, maybe not. I believe he was certainly one of the favored ones from the ones Allah guided and/or chose.
I understand it as follows
Israeel = 1 person
Israeel's sons = Bani Israeel
Noah came to Bani Israeel and the ones who believed with Noah came with him on the ship made by Noah, others died in the flood.
People carried on ship are Bani Israeel and their children called as zurriyat of people who where carried on the ship.
But I don't have any proof of Israeel came before Noah (
Thank you, strangely enough I have never thought in such way. For the moment I think it makes sense, I have to sleep over it a couple of days -)
No way brother, please don't think so, I am learning a lot from you. BTW, your example of 1860 is very nice yes
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. KhanOk thank you, I have even learned more from you. The Al Nabi "thing" mentioned above I have learned it from one of your older topics about Al Rasoel (but shhhhhhhhhht don?t tell).
Salaam and may Allah increase our knowledge.
ps. i have a strange feeling that I'm misunderstanding 172-3
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I think we are focusing on the wrong word. Why should Allah say the nabiyien from the seed of Adam and the nabiyien from the seed of Ibrahim etc. Are the nabiyien of the seed of Ibrahim not all ready included in the nabiyien from the seed of Adam? I think 1958 is not talking about the nabiyien but about the ones who Allah favored.
Salaaman brother,
I agree with you totally.
ps. i have a strange feeling that I'm misunderstanding 172-3 D
My new understanding about 172-3.
172 and 173 are talking separately they are not linked.
172
172 And We gave Musa the Book and We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel "Do not believe in any besides Me."Then it is being said to zurriyat of those who were carried with Noah that he was a thankful/appreciative person.
173
173 Zurriyat of those whom We carried with Noah, he was a thankful servant.If you don't take it like this, then Israel has to be before Noah which is not possible.
393
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tauraat was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."That means Israel was available at the time of AlTauraat.
365
365 "O people of the Book, why do you debate regarding Ibraheem when the Tauraat and the Injeel were not sent down except after him? Do you not comprehend?"Hope you understand what I am trying to say.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaaman brother,
I agree with you totally.
My new understanding about 172-3.
172 and 173 are talking separately they are not linked.
172
172 And We gave Musa the Book and We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel "Do not believe in any besides Me."Then it is being said to zurriyat of those who were carried with Noah that he was a thankful/appreciative person.
173
173 Zurriyat of those whom We carried with Noah, he was a thankful servant.Salaam Mohammed,
I understand, but in this way it looks like a lost ayaat, it looks like this ayaat doesn?t belong there, while I believe that every sentence and every ayaat in the Quran is linked in some way to the previous and the next sentence/ayaat.
If you don't take it like this, then Israel has to be before Noah which is not possible.
393
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tauraat was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."That means Israel was available at the time of AlTauraat.
365
365 "O people of the Book, why do you debate regarding Ibraheem when the Tauraat and the Injeel were not sent down except after him? Do you not comprehend?"Hope you understand what I am trying to say.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. KhanI understand this differently.
I think not Israel was at the moment when the Tauraat was sent down, but Bani Israel.
Thus I see it like this.
First Adam, then somewhere after Adam but before the Tauraat Israel was born. Israel had no book or a book without any forbidden food. Thus for Israel it was allowed to eat everything but for some reason he forbade for himself some food. Then Israel died but his children understood that what their Father forbade for himself was also forbidden for them. Then after some time The Tauraat was sent down, and in The Tauraat there were rules of what is forbidden and what not of the food.
Thus All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tauraat was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."I think if you have to understand it like you did then there would have been something like this All the food was made lawful to Israel and his children except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tauraat was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."
may Allah increase us in knowledge
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I understand, but in this way it looks like a lost ayaat, it looks like this ayaat doesn?t belong there, while I believe that every sentence and every ayaat in the Quran is linked in some way to the previous and the next sentence/ayaat.
Salaaman brother,
I agree, but still I remember there were aayats that has no relation with the previous or next aayat. InshaAllah, if I find any I will post it here.
I understand this differently.
I think not Israel was at the moment when the Tauraat was sent down, but Bani Israel.
Thus I see it like this.
First Adam, then somewhere after Adam but before the Tauraat Israel was born. Israel had no book or a book without any forbidden food. Thus for Israel it was allowed to eat everything but for some reason he forbade for himself some food. Then Israel died but his children understood that what their Father forbade for himself was also forbidden for them. Then after some time The Tauraat was sent down, and in The Tauraat there were rules of what is forbidden and what not of the food.
Thus All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tauraat was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."Interesting! MashaAllah, I think it makes lot of sense. At the moment I agree with you on this. ) And thank you for sharing your understand with us brother, may Allah reward you the best.
I think if you have to understand it like you did then there would have been something like this All the food was made lawful to Israel and his children except what Israel forbade for himself before the Tauraat was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."
I got that... May Allah forgive our mistakes and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan
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Benu Israa'il are Gypsy (or. Gypty from el-gypty, meaning Egyptian). They are not one nation as their ancestors, but from different nations, nomadic people came to Egypt and settled there, during Hittite period. Israa'il means "wandering, traveling", and they were their ancestors, not one man. Progeny of Israa'il are Benu Israa'il.
They landed with NooH after Flood in Mediterranean, then started to look for a land to settle. They lost their original land due to Flood. They were of high educated civilization (ie. Atlantean), and due to their potential Allah gave them a land to settle, after pharaoh (Akhanaton). Some of them settled before and didn't come to Egypt (called MiSr in that time).
They are from NooH's qawm (commune), and Israa'il were most "criticized" (lowest) from that commune (1127). They were not relatives to NooH, but later on they made a progeny with Ibrahim's offspring (195, and got themselves a pedigree.