The problem with Islam
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Icephren summed up what I was trying to say pretty well.
Looking at history recorded by Muslim and non-Muslim it is possible to see things going sour real quick after Muhammad, but it is still hard to see where/when/how the pagan rituals were added. The following is my understanding of the situation.
For those of you who might not know the years the 4 Caliphs and Muhammad were around, here it is
-Muhammad (623-632)
-Abu Bakr (632-634)
-Umar I (634-644)
-Uthman ibn Affan (644-656)
-Ali Ben Abu Talib (656-661)Going back to the theory that Islam was corrupted soon after Muhammads death. We are talking about 28 years, because an Islamic 'cult' is well documented from non-Muslim sources after this time. This would mean that Islam took on these "pagan" attributes around the time Ali came into power, but the process must have started earlier for it to have been so well established already. If this corruption theory is true then the Kabah must have been rebuilt during or before the reign of Uthman. There wasn't very much animosity amongst Muslims until Uthman during which there was indeed a spread of corruption in the political structure. He ruled for the longest of all the 4 early Caliphs. According to the Sunni historians themselves, Ali thought that Islam was heading in the "wrong direction." What is meant by "wrong direction"? I don't know, its kind of vague as far as I know. Well either way, after Uthman, there were deep divisions amongst the Muslims. So far I have only read the politics of the situation, however most of the rebel factions had apparent religous motives as well, these are never discussed for some reason. Yazid, son of Muawiyah had Medina massacred and its citizens were enslaved because of the rebels there. Muhammad?s mosque was turned into a stable, public buildings, including schools, were destroyed. The army then marched on to Mecca to fight Abdallah ibn Al-Zubary, son of Muhammads close companion Az-Zubayr, because he claimed to be Caliph. Abdallah fled but the army continued to attack Mecca. As Muslim historian Tabari records
"they hurled stones and wood at the Sacred House (the Kaba), with ballistae and they set it on fire."
" They were causing fires to be lit around the Kabah. There was a spark, which the wind blew; it set fire to the veil of the Kabah and burned the wood of the Sacred House?."
So as you can see, the ruling Muslims were anything but pious. Its sad considering this was only the first generation after Muhammad. So much fighting and bloodshed amongst them. Either way, the Kabah was there this whole time and even after it was destroyed during the fighting, it was rebuilt.
Even all this can't explain the corruption that would have led to the reconsturction after Muhammads death. The problem is that under the command of Abu Bakr and Umar, the Islamic empire had grown fairly large. Additions and change to Islam such as the pagan hajj and reconstruction of the Kabbah must have started from the Mecca region itself. So assuming that the Meccans incorporated these rituals and beliefs around the time of Uthman poses a problem, that being that the Muslims of the further regions that were conquered under Abu Bakr and Umar would still have been practicing the Islam that was brought to them by these two rulers, this isn't what we find though. The outer regions of the Islamic empire were always practicing what the inner regions were practicing. This problem has one possible solution, the Kabah was rebuilt immediatly after Muhammads death and that not even his closest companions were truely Muslim. Thats going a bit far though. If you are going to doubt even the earliest and closest companions, then why even hold on to the Quran as it was compiled by these folks? This theory would give more credence to those who say parts of the Quran were lost and which point you have to admit that the Quran has not been preserverd.
So you see, the further back you go, the deeper you go, the more problems there are and the more extreme theory you need to resolve these issues. All of these problems can be solved pretty easily though, accept the traditional translation, understanding, and explanations of the Quran. This being that the Kabah was indeed built by Abraham and later used by pagans, Bekkah = Mecca, Kabah is not worshipped but only used as a direction, Sunnis follow Muhammads way of praying, Muhammad purified the pagan rituals such as Hajj and rededicated them to God alone, so on. All the pieces fit in. Going by the Quran alone, you won't find this ofcourse. The Quran was a revelation and guide, not a history book like the Bible. It has references to certain events that took place during Muhammads life, but it assumes the reader knows what these events are.
So, is it possible then that we shouldn't be so extreme in disregarding 1400 years of history, tradition, and practice? If you have a better solution to all the problems caused by reinventing Muhammads life, please explain.
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Salaam Riz and all,
Looking at history recorded by Muslim and non-Muslim it is possible to see things going sour real quick after Muhammad, but it is still hard to see where/when/how the pagan rituals were added...
Going back to the theory that Islam was corrupted soon after Muhammads death. We are talking about 28 years, because an Islamic 'cult' is well documented from non-Muslim sources after this time. This would mean that Islam took on these "pagan" attributes around the time Ali came into power, but the process must have started earlier for it to have been so well established already...
For some reason I was thinking about this question last night, even though I didn't follow the thread that much. Before I continue... with the above clip in mind, it is assumed that all this information is fact. ?? Anyway, I never was a big fan of 'history', even though I wouldn't categorize this as such, so, let's quickly move on. Also, notice, the scarcity of quran verses for back up of any of these claims from Riz and ichephren's posts, as opposed to almost every other post on this thread. My previous post only consisted of verses, yet, was totally ignored. I feel that some people have become "immune" to these verses, maybe from seeing them too often or something. I may be mistaken. But I do not tire from reading or posting them.
God has sent down the best hadeeth, a Scripture that is similar with two paths. The skins of those who reverence their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is God's guidance; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whomever God misguides, then none can guide him.
I support mquran when he aptly said...
So the Quran itself isn't evidence, brother? Isn't it unfair that you are ready to accept human sources but where Allah's book is concerned, you relegate it to being a historical phenomena?
Isn't it enough? Isn't GOD enough? We still need more?Now, again, I may be wrong, but I notice that the main part of the problem, as per Riz's quote above, is time-line. I'll explain in just a bit. I remember when I first tried to talk to my brother about Islam. After the laughter (on his part) and later on the fights... he was slowly accepting and seeing truth, all praise be to the God. Ofcourse for a while, he found it hard to swallow that the rituals (2x4x4x3x4, cube-circumventing, etc.) could have been invented over a few decades after the prophet's death. How could this be so? Impossible! He would totally refuse! Then I'd have to go into repeated explanations and debates, and he'd understand and partially accept. Next day, back again... "but how could it be?... atleast the prayer, that could not be a fabrication!" roll Funny enough, he's quite the activist right now, when it comes to warning others about the shirk involved in the robotic-cube-facing so-called prayers. yes Again, the God guides, so it is on those who follow the guidance to listen or not. It's not "this movement" who will answer for anyone on the day of reckoning.
Back to the timeline... here's something for the skeptics to ponder on. I'm talking to those who believe that quran is the word of God. Instead of spoon feeding, I'm going to have you do a little leg work and search for this particular story mentioned in quran more than once. smug
The story sorta goes like this... Moses led his people out of suffering under pharaoh's tyranny. I don't need to go into the amount of suffering the children of Israel underwent. So they escape, with God's guidance. Pharaoh and his minions drowned. Children of Israel witnessed all the signs you can imagine from God. Now here's the clincher... so take a deep breath, think about it, and you don't really have to reply to this...
HOW LONG DID IT TAKE FOR THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL TO WORSHIP A CALF?
Now, keep that answer in mind, and compare it to the purported 28-30 years after the prophet's death. Yes, it's very easy to point to others and think that "muslims" have escaped this very same trap that all generations have fallen into. Like Riz so nicelely put it...
Thats what the Christians seem to do and I don't want to make the same mistake.
Yes, not just christians, not just the jews. Open your mind. Look deep inside yourself. Are you really willing to do that? Are you willing to let God guide you out of the depths of darkness into the light? Or will you continue being in denial?Peace be with you.
And if you ask them ?Who created the heavens and the Earth?", they will Say ?God.? Say ?Do you see what you call on besides God, If God wanted any harm for me, can they alleviate His harm? Or if He wanted a mercy for me, can they hold back his mercy?? Say ?God is sufficient for me; in Him those who trust shall put their trust.?
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Peace Riz,
If you are going to doubt even the earliest and closest companions, then why even hold on to the Quran as it was compiled by these folks? This theory would give more credence to those who say parts of the Quran were lost and which point you have to admit that the Quran has not been preserverd.
Please get your facts straight. The ayaat were written down by Muhammad himself and his scribes as soon as they were revealed and then they were all compiled by him under direct instructions from The God. The God then preserved The Qur'aan Himself......there is not even an iota of doubt about that. Please go through the following link for details on how Qur'aanic text was written and preserved
http//free-minds.org/books/wadud_05.htm
Nay but it (the Quran) is indeed a message of instruction. Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance that it is in papers held in great honour, exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy, (written) by the hands of scribes, honourable, pious and just." (8011-16)
"It is for us to assemble it and to promulgate it. And when we have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated). Nay more, it is for us to explain it." (7517-19)
"We have without doubt, sent down the message and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption.)" (159)
Brother Zenje, that was a brilliant example about the timeline. May The God guide us all.
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Yes, what you said is very true Zenje. People can go astray very quickly and I don't doubt that.
From all these posts you might think I am a Sunni or something, but don't get me wrong, I am still a Quran only believer, but these questions have always troubled me and made me consider the Sunni interpretation of the Quran.
A verse from the Quran that is possibly hinting at the early corruption is 2530.
"And the messenger said ?My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran.? 2530. This is what Muhammad will say on the day of Judgement. Now the tradition interpretation would be that nowadays people don't read the Quran, but could 'my people' could infact mean the people he was with? Literally his people. Again its speculation but it makes a lot of sense.As of now, I haven't been able to find any historical data, archaelogical or reports from non-muslims, that would infact prove that the current Islamic practices existed even during Muhammads time. All we have is the Quran which seems to paint a very different picture than what we are told by tradition and Muslim history. So let me ask you guys, could you draw up a possible scenerio of what happened after Muhammad and how it happened and how it has been covered up so well? Try to address the following if possible
-Reconstruction of the kaba
-Bringing back the stone (assuming Muhammad would have detroyed/discarded it)
-Why did the Muslims become so divided and fight so bitterly when the Quran says that God was happy with them and that their hearts were united. I read an article denying that these civil wars happened, but these are recorded even by non-muslims.
-Traditional way of prayer. Main issues being 5 times a day and bowing to Kaba. Why would the unbelievers impose 2 extra prayers on themselves?
-Why was there such little resistance?
-Not even Muhammads own family remained to the Quran. Why/how what possible motive?
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Salaamun alaikum,
Riz, don't forget that we're not talking about a hundred year gap between Muhammad ibn Abdullah and us. We're talking about millenium AND a half.
How do I know that when the Mongols invaded in 1258, they didn't completely destroy the Arabic civilisation and recreated everything from new?
All I know is, the book I told in my hand is authentic because as 41/53 says
Soon We will show them OUR SIGNS in the HORIZONS and in THEMSELVES until it is clear to them that THIS IS AL-HAQQ...No matter where I go, no matter what I do, I am in His grip. I cannot possibly escape his perpetual prophecy contained in His Book and neither can any human being. He didn't choose to include anyone's name (with the possible exception of Zaid) in the book for what reason? Did His publisher tell him to shorten it? No. Everything was done on purpose. Think about it, brother.
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Yes, certainly evolved. We can now kill millions of people a minute instead of the inefficient hack and slash rate going on in 6th century Arabia.
But we ARE NOT KILLING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE A MINUTE right now ARE WE!? -)
Though we have POWER TO WIPE OUT ALL LIFE ON EARTH, we have remarkably been quite reponsible with this POWER by our own standards! -)
So how do you understand the 'humanity of messengers' ? Through information, right ? How do you acquire this information?
Read all the available SOURCES of information - it is easy as that...
But you don't need anything else do you? For you Quran is entire history! You can even use Quran to prove that Elephants can fly -)Just kiddin -)
All I am saying man, read all the available information and then make your own mind up on these things. To reject history is to have a "fundamentalist" mind because fundamentalist are "anti-historical".
But end of the day Scripture is a Spiritual Guide and nothing more...
Regards,
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LoteTreeThough we have POWER TO WIPE OUT ALL LIFE ON EARTH, we have remarkably been quite reponsible with this POWER by our own standards
Yes, very responsible. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be the first to agree with you if they weren't burnt to a crisp.
Read all the available SOURCES of information - it is easy as that...
But you don't need anything else do you? For you Quran is entire history! You can even use Quran to prove that Elephants can flyFor me the Quran is history ? No, it's MY story (21/10) not HIS story.
All I am saying man, read all the available information and then make your own mind up on these things. To reject history is to have a "fundamentalist" mind because fundamentalist are "anti-historical".
Where are you getting your definitions from? Since when do 'fundamentalists' reject history? If you ask these 'muslim fundamentalists', to prove thier points, they will tell you things FROM HISTORY
But end of the day Scripture is a Spiritual Guide and nothing more...
spiritual guide ? You mean like we do 'aum's on it and we can fly or something ? Have you actually read the Quran or do you enjoy speaking without any basis whatsoever?
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LoteTreeThough we have POWER TO WIPE OUT ALL LIFE ON EARTH, we have remarkably been quite reponsible with this POWER by our own standards
Yes, very responsible. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be the first to agree with you if they weren't burnt to a crisp.
Ah yes the Tragedy of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But this is what you said
Yes, certainly evolved. We can now kill millions of people a minute instead of the inefficient hack and slash rate going on in 6th century Arabia.
and I said
But we ARE NOT KILLING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE A MINUTE right now ARE WE!?
Are we killing MILLIONS OF PEOPLE A MINUTE right now chap?
But we do have the POWER TO WIPE ALL LIFE ON EARTH! Therefore we have been indeed quite reponsible with this POWER -)
Read all the available SOURCES of information - it is easy as that...
But you don't need anything else do you? For you Quran is entire history! You can even use Quran to prove that Elephants can flyFor me the Quran is history ? No, it's MY story (21/10) not HIS story.
Your story? I see. That's why perhaps you can use Quran to prove that Elephants can fly and cows laying eggs yeah?
Just kiddin -)
All I am saying man, read all the available information and then make your own mind up on these things. To reject history is to have a "fundamentalist" mind because fundamentalist are "anti-historical".
Where are you getting your definitions from? Since when do 'fundamentalists' reject history? If you ask these 'muslim fundamentalists', to prove thier points, they will tell you things FROM HISTORY
Fundamentalist are "anti-historical" in the sense that they "accept" their own history and discards all. They are anti-historical in the sense that they believe that both Abraham, Moses, and Muhammad experienced God in the same way as we do now. But history tells us different. God of Abraham is indeed was different from the God of Moses, and God of Moses is different from the God of Muhammad in historical sense. But I guess that is a different debate -)
But end of the day Scripture is a Spiritual Guide and nothing more...
spiritual guide ? You mean like we do 'aum's on it and we can fly or something ? Have you actually read the Quran or do you enjoy speaking without any basis whatsoever?
Yes, chap, I have studied it for two years and even memorised six "sifaras" by heart! So you can say I have read it -)
and your next question to me would be have you understood it?
The answer is yes and this is my answer
Quran is A TRUTH not the whole Truth and surely not the ONLY TRUTH, it will guide you in the direction of God, but to find God you must go beyond it because Quran is not God -)And if you think Spiritual Guide means "aum" and flying then obviously you know nothing about spirituality of human beings. Homo-Sapiens are also Homo-spiritual... -)
I say read chap, read all that is available in a "spirit" of "openess" and not use Quran as a block in your mind -)
Regards,
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Good posts LoteTree. Not to be a jerk or anything but can we try to stick with the main questions oops
Shall I let mquran's question go unanswered chap?
-)Regards,
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LoteTreeBut we do have the POWER TO WIPE ALL LIFE ON EARTH! Therefore we have been indeed quite reponsible with this POWER
As I said, tell that to the chargrilled humans after the atomic bomb was dropped on them. They may not be so quick to agree with you.
To you, one life or even a million lives may be worthless, but not according to the Quran (5/32). I wonder who's uncivilised now?Your story? I see. That's why perhaps you can use Quran to prove that Elephants can fly and cows laying eggs yeah?
Just kiddin
Is your mental retardation a curable problem?
Fundamentalist are "anti-historical" in the sense that they "accept" their own history and discards all. They are anti-historical in the sense that they believe that both Abraham, Moses, and Muhammad experienced God in the same way as we do now. But history tells us different. God of Abraham is indeed was different from the God of Moses, and God of Moses is different from the God of Muhammad in historical sense. But I guess that is a different debate
Right, so you're making up your definitions as you go along. Good stuff
The answer is yes and this is my answer
Quran is A TRUTH not the whole Truth and surely not the ONLY TRUTH, it will guide you in the direction of God, but to find God you must go beyond it because Quran is not GodSo after 2 years of reading, memorisng and understanding, you came up with this?
41/53 al-quraan is AL-HAQQ
22/6 Allah is al-haqq
So both Allah and Al-Quraan is al-haqq, the ultimate truth. So im afraid your assertion is false. Al-Quraan is only 'a truth' to you because you'd love to cling to your modernist nonsense which is really a guise for first world oppression.
And if you think Spiritual Guide means "aum" and flying then obviously you know nothing about spirituality of human beings. Homo-Sapiens are also Homo-spiritual...
Ah good, please define for me 'spirit' and i'd like to see if al-quraan is a 'spiritual guide'
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Shall I answer mquran Riz?
Shall I wipe the floor with him?Regards,
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Shall I answer mquran Riz?
Shall I wipe the floor with him?You couldn't wipe the floor with a mop
i ask nothing but simple straightfoward questions and you simply ignore them. Wait till you meet people with REAL knowledge. THEY'LL wipe the floor with YOU.
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Shall I answer mquran Riz?
Shall I wipe the floor with him?You couldn't wipe the floor with a mop )
You are right there chap! I will get my servant to do it for me!!!
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i ask nothing but simple straightfoward questions and you simply ignore them. Wait till you meet people with REAL knowledge. THEY'LL wipe the floor with YOU.OOOO I am really really scared!!!
It's like being in the school playground!!!
As the kids will say, just wait till my big brother gets hold of you for using me to wipe the floor!!!But hey, I thought you WERE THE PERSON with REAL KNOWLEDGE, oh Sorry I forgot YOU DON'T TRUST YOUR REASON DO YOU?
Please RESPECT RIZ'S wishes and aswer HIS QUESTIONS ok?
If you want verbal jousting with me then lets open a thread, yeah?
-) -) chill chap tranceRegards,
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wow
Don't worry Elke, mquran and I are old "friends" -)
He is just recovering from wounds from our last battle under a different thread... -)
As for wipping floor with him don't worry
I was joking!
I don't think I will be able to lift him because I am such weakling... -)Regards,
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Peace Riz, all,
Try to address the following if possible
-Reconstruction of the kaba
-Bringing back the stone (assuming Muhammad would have detroyed/discarded it)
-Why did the Muslims become so divided and fight so bitterly when the Quran says that God was happy with them and that their hearts were united. I read an article denying that these civil wars happened, but these are recorded even by non-muslims.
-Traditional way of prayer. Main issues being 5 times a day and bowing to Kaba. Why would the unbelievers impose 2 extra prayers on themselves?
-Why was there such little resistance?
-Not even Muhammads own family remained to the Quran. Why/how what possible motive?
Looks like the post in which I tried to answer all this has been completely ignored. I will post the link to that post, so you can read it again
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=49406&highlight=#49406
WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST, HOW WILL THAT AFFECT HOW YOU WILL BE JUDGED ON THE LAST DAY ?. Who cares what the past people, including Muhammad's family did, and how and why they did it. All that you need is in Al-Qur'aan, and all the historical and personal examples needed for our guidance are in it.
It looks like brother Zenje's posts are indeed going unread.
3936 Is God not enough for His servant? And they frighten you with others beside Him. And whomever God sends astray, then for him there will be no guide. And whomever God guides, then there will be none that can mislead him. Is God not Noble, with Vengeance?
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Hey guys.
Tanveermd your earlier posts did not go unnoticed or unread and the same with zenje. Its not like I haven't ever seen those verses, but they don't address the issue.
You ask why it matters what happened in the past, so let me explain my view. What Muhammad and his followers did was and still is very important to know and understand. If Muhammad considered the Shrine in Mecca to have some significance, then there is no reason we should not do the same. You can't simply discard history just because it is hard to understand or doesn't fit with you interpretation of the Quran. Muhammad was an excellent example whom we should try to follow as the Quran itself states. To me the question of the Sunna has never been if we should follow it, rather how do we know what tradition tells is us true? If one is to discard all rituals and practices in Islam not directly found in the Quran, then there is much to explain regarding the events after Muhammads death. Some of which I posed above. If Muhammad did infact perform some sort of Pilgrimage, then why should we pretend it never happened and walk away blindly? Does the Quran not ask us to perform the pilgrimage to the ancient shrine? It doesn't say Abrahams shrine, it is simply the ancient shrine. God has made this shrine a shrine for the people it says. Whether or not it was once a pagan shrine doesn't matter, it has been made a shrine for the people and rededicated to God. Looking at it like that it is certainly possible that we are to perform a pilgrimage to Mecca. Muhammad, his closest disciples, and his family are all recorded to have done so. If anyone is to simply disregard all of these accounts simplly because his/her interpretation doesn't fit with such events, then the person has to explain where/how/when these practices came in. You can't simply point to verses in the Quran that say rely on the Quran alone because relying on the Quran alone I can also see there being a pilgrimage to Mecca.
The point of this all is to practice Islam like or similar to the way Muhammad practiced it, because as the Quran says, he was an excellent example. You might say that he practiced it just like the Quran says, but the Quran is so vague in many areas and therefore Muhammad himself obviously had his own interpretation which God never objected to. If this included a pilgrimage, then there is no reason no to perform a pilgrimage. Now people here claim that all of this pilgrimage stuff was invented after Muhammads death. This would not be hard to believe if the accusations weren't against Muhammad closest disciples and family. At this point these accusations need some serious explanations. Did Israel betray Moses? Did Judas betray Jesus? Yea, sure, but there Prophets still had very close disciples and certain family members who never betrayed them. Muhammad is no exception. To say that Muhammads daughters, wives, best friends all betrayed him is quite a big accusation and without any clear evidence backing it, why should anyone believe these accusations? Once again, the Quran is not clear evidence against the pilgrimage. Sure certain foriegn and pagan practices might have been added to it, but to say the pilgrimage to Mecca was invented by Muhammads closest believers who stuck by him through good and bad, fought many battles by his side, never betrayed him, and whose hearts were unified as the Quran states, you have some serious explaining to do.
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Dear Riz,
You are right, what Muhammad and his followers did and said is very important to us. However, where does it say that Muhammad was ever in Mecca? And what he did there?
If you look closer at the basis for your perception, you will see that most of this is from the Hadith-collections, or history-books based on tell-tales.Concerning shrines, do you remember the story about Moses and his people building a physical shrine because they did not have any tangible symbol to pray to?
Why do you think God says that suddenly, now it is OK to have a physical shrine to pray in front of?
Has God changed His mind? ?I do not see pilgrimage as a bad thing, but all for the right reason. To go somewhere in order to perform rituals in front of a shrine, well, could there be a better reason to assemble then to copy the straying people of Moses?
Best regds
Ali Omar
