The problem with Islam
-
Salaamun alaikum,
Riz, don't forget that we're not talking about a hundred year gap between Muhammad ibn Abdullah and us. We're talking about millenium AND a half.
How do I know that when the Mongols invaded in 1258, they didn't completely destroy the Arabic civilisation and recreated everything from new?
All I know is, the book I told in my hand is authentic because as 41/53 says
Soon We will show them OUR SIGNS in the HORIZONS and in THEMSELVES until it is clear to them that THIS IS AL-HAQQ...No matter where I go, no matter what I do, I am in His grip. I cannot possibly escape his perpetual prophecy contained in His Book and neither can any human being. He didn't choose to include anyone's name (with the possible exception of Zaid) in the book for what reason? Did His publisher tell him to shorten it? No. Everything was done on purpose. Think about it, brother.
-
Yes, certainly evolved. We can now kill millions of people a minute instead of the inefficient hack and slash rate going on in 6th century Arabia.
But we ARE NOT KILLING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE A MINUTE right now ARE WE!? -)
Though we have POWER TO WIPE OUT ALL LIFE ON EARTH, we have remarkably been quite reponsible with this POWER by our own standards! -)
So how do you understand the 'humanity of messengers' ? Through information, right ? How do you acquire this information?
Read all the available SOURCES of information - it is easy as that...
But you don't need anything else do you? For you Quran is entire history! You can even use Quran to prove that Elephants can fly -)Just kiddin -)
All I am saying man, read all the available information and then make your own mind up on these things. To reject history is to have a "fundamentalist" mind because fundamentalist are "anti-historical".
But end of the day Scripture is a Spiritual Guide and nothing more...
Regards,
-
LoteTreeThough we have POWER TO WIPE OUT ALL LIFE ON EARTH, we have remarkably been quite reponsible with this POWER by our own standards
Yes, very responsible. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be the first to agree with you if they weren't burnt to a crisp.
Read all the available SOURCES of information - it is easy as that...
But you don't need anything else do you? For you Quran is entire history! You can even use Quran to prove that Elephants can flyFor me the Quran is history ? No, it's MY story (21/10) not HIS story.
All I am saying man, read all the available information and then make your own mind up on these things. To reject history is to have a "fundamentalist" mind because fundamentalist are "anti-historical".
Where are you getting your definitions from? Since when do 'fundamentalists' reject history? If you ask these 'muslim fundamentalists', to prove thier points, they will tell you things FROM HISTORY
But end of the day Scripture is a Spiritual Guide and nothing more...
spiritual guide ? You mean like we do 'aum's on it and we can fly or something ? Have you actually read the Quran or do you enjoy speaking without any basis whatsoever?
-
LoteTreeThough we have POWER TO WIPE OUT ALL LIFE ON EARTH, we have remarkably been quite reponsible with this POWER by our own standards
Yes, very responsible. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki would be the first to agree with you if they weren't burnt to a crisp.
Ah yes the Tragedy of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But this is what you said
Yes, certainly evolved. We can now kill millions of people a minute instead of the inefficient hack and slash rate going on in 6th century Arabia.
and I said
But we ARE NOT KILLING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE A MINUTE right now ARE WE!?
Are we killing MILLIONS OF PEOPLE A MINUTE right now chap?
But we do have the POWER TO WIPE ALL LIFE ON EARTH! Therefore we have been indeed quite reponsible with this POWER -)
Read all the available SOURCES of information - it is easy as that...
But you don't need anything else do you? For you Quran is entire history! You can even use Quran to prove that Elephants can flyFor me the Quran is history ? No, it's MY story (21/10) not HIS story.
Your story? I see. That's why perhaps you can use Quran to prove that Elephants can fly and cows laying eggs yeah?
Just kiddin -)
All I am saying man, read all the available information and then make your own mind up on these things. To reject history is to have a "fundamentalist" mind because fundamentalist are "anti-historical".
Where are you getting your definitions from? Since when do 'fundamentalists' reject history? If you ask these 'muslim fundamentalists', to prove thier points, they will tell you things FROM HISTORY
Fundamentalist are "anti-historical" in the sense that they "accept" their own history and discards all. They are anti-historical in the sense that they believe that both Abraham, Moses, and Muhammad experienced God in the same way as we do now. But history tells us different. God of Abraham is indeed was different from the God of Moses, and God of Moses is different from the God of Muhammad in historical sense. But I guess that is a different debate -)
But end of the day Scripture is a Spiritual Guide and nothing more...
spiritual guide ? You mean like we do 'aum's on it and we can fly or something ? Have you actually read the Quran or do you enjoy speaking without any basis whatsoever?
Yes, chap, I have studied it for two years and even memorised six "sifaras" by heart! So you can say I have read it -)
and your next question to me would be have you understood it?
The answer is yes and this is my answer
Quran is A TRUTH not the whole Truth and surely not the ONLY TRUTH, it will guide you in the direction of God, but to find God you must go beyond it because Quran is not God -)And if you think Spiritual Guide means "aum" and flying then obviously you know nothing about spirituality of human beings. Homo-Sapiens are also Homo-spiritual... -)
I say read chap, read all that is available in a "spirit" of "openess" and not use Quran as a block in your mind -)
Regards,
-
Good posts LoteTree. Not to be a jerk or anything but can we try to stick with the main questions oops
Shall I let mquran's question go unanswered chap?
-)Regards,
-
LoteTreeBut we do have the POWER TO WIPE ALL LIFE ON EARTH! Therefore we have been indeed quite reponsible with this POWER
As I said, tell that to the chargrilled humans after the atomic bomb was dropped on them. They may not be so quick to agree with you.
To you, one life or even a million lives may be worthless, but not according to the Quran (5/32). I wonder who's uncivilised now?Your story? I see. That's why perhaps you can use Quran to prove that Elephants can fly and cows laying eggs yeah?
Just kiddin
Is your mental retardation a curable problem?
Fundamentalist are "anti-historical" in the sense that they "accept" their own history and discards all. They are anti-historical in the sense that they believe that both Abraham, Moses, and Muhammad experienced God in the same way as we do now. But history tells us different. God of Abraham is indeed was different from the God of Moses, and God of Moses is different from the God of Muhammad in historical sense. But I guess that is a different debate
Right, so you're making up your definitions as you go along. Good stuff
The answer is yes and this is my answer
Quran is A TRUTH not the whole Truth and surely not the ONLY TRUTH, it will guide you in the direction of God, but to find God you must go beyond it because Quran is not GodSo after 2 years of reading, memorisng and understanding, you came up with this?
41/53 al-quraan is AL-HAQQ
22/6 Allah is al-haqq
So both Allah and Al-Quraan is al-haqq, the ultimate truth. So im afraid your assertion is false. Al-Quraan is only 'a truth' to you because you'd love to cling to your modernist nonsense which is really a guise for first world oppression.
And if you think Spiritual Guide means "aum" and flying then obviously you know nothing about spirituality of human beings. Homo-Sapiens are also Homo-spiritual...
Ah good, please define for me 'spirit' and i'd like to see if al-quraan is a 'spiritual guide'
-
Shall I answer mquran Riz?
Shall I wipe the floor with him?Regards,
-
Shall I answer mquran Riz?
Shall I wipe the floor with him?You couldn't wipe the floor with a mop
i ask nothing but simple straightfoward questions and you simply ignore them. Wait till you meet people with REAL knowledge. THEY'LL wipe the floor with YOU.
-
Shall I answer mquran Riz?
Shall I wipe the floor with him?You couldn't wipe the floor with a mop )
You are right there chap! I will get my servant to do it for me!!!
-)[
i ask nothing but simple straightfoward questions and you simply ignore them. Wait till you meet people with REAL knowledge. THEY'LL wipe the floor with YOU.OOOO I am really really scared!!!
It's like being in the school playground!!!
As the kids will say, just wait till my big brother gets hold of you for using me to wipe the floor!!!But hey, I thought you WERE THE PERSON with REAL KNOWLEDGE, oh Sorry I forgot YOU DON'T TRUST YOUR REASON DO YOU?
Please RESPECT RIZ'S wishes and aswer HIS QUESTIONS ok?
If you want verbal jousting with me then lets open a thread, yeah?
-) -) chill chap tranceRegards,
-
wow
Don't worry Elke, mquran and I are old "friends" -)
He is just recovering from wounds from our last battle under a different thread... -)
As for wipping floor with him don't worry
I was joking!
I don't think I will be able to lift him because I am such weakling... -)Regards,
-
Peace Riz, all,
Try to address the following if possible
-Reconstruction of the kaba
-Bringing back the stone (assuming Muhammad would have detroyed/discarded it)
-Why did the Muslims become so divided and fight so bitterly when the Quran says that God was happy with them and that their hearts were united. I read an article denying that these civil wars happened, but these are recorded even by non-muslims.
-Traditional way of prayer. Main issues being 5 times a day and bowing to Kaba. Why would the unbelievers impose 2 extra prayers on themselves?
-Why was there such little resistance?
-Not even Muhammads own family remained to the Quran. Why/how what possible motive?
Looks like the post in which I tried to answer all this has been completely ignored. I will post the link to that post, so you can read it again
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=49406&highlight=#49406
WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST, HOW WILL THAT AFFECT HOW YOU WILL BE JUDGED ON THE LAST DAY ?. Who cares what the past people, including Muhammad's family did, and how and why they did it. All that you need is in Al-Qur'aan, and all the historical and personal examples needed for our guidance are in it.
It looks like brother Zenje's posts are indeed going unread.
3936 Is God not enough for His servant? And they frighten you with others beside Him. And whomever God sends astray, then for him there will be no guide. And whomever God guides, then there will be none that can mislead him. Is God not Noble, with Vengeance?
-
Hey guys.
Tanveermd your earlier posts did not go unnoticed or unread and the same with zenje. Its not like I haven't ever seen those verses, but they don't address the issue.
You ask why it matters what happened in the past, so let me explain my view. What Muhammad and his followers did was and still is very important to know and understand. If Muhammad considered the Shrine in Mecca to have some significance, then there is no reason we should not do the same. You can't simply discard history just because it is hard to understand or doesn't fit with you interpretation of the Quran. Muhammad was an excellent example whom we should try to follow as the Quran itself states. To me the question of the Sunna has never been if we should follow it, rather how do we know what tradition tells is us true? If one is to discard all rituals and practices in Islam not directly found in the Quran, then there is much to explain regarding the events after Muhammads death. Some of which I posed above. If Muhammad did infact perform some sort of Pilgrimage, then why should we pretend it never happened and walk away blindly? Does the Quran not ask us to perform the pilgrimage to the ancient shrine? It doesn't say Abrahams shrine, it is simply the ancient shrine. God has made this shrine a shrine for the people it says. Whether or not it was once a pagan shrine doesn't matter, it has been made a shrine for the people and rededicated to God. Looking at it like that it is certainly possible that we are to perform a pilgrimage to Mecca. Muhammad, his closest disciples, and his family are all recorded to have done so. If anyone is to simply disregard all of these accounts simplly because his/her interpretation doesn't fit with such events, then the person has to explain where/how/when these practices came in. You can't simply point to verses in the Quran that say rely on the Quran alone because relying on the Quran alone I can also see there being a pilgrimage to Mecca.
The point of this all is to practice Islam like or similar to the way Muhammad practiced it, because as the Quran says, he was an excellent example. You might say that he practiced it just like the Quran says, but the Quran is so vague in many areas and therefore Muhammad himself obviously had his own interpretation which God never objected to. If this included a pilgrimage, then there is no reason no to perform a pilgrimage. Now people here claim that all of this pilgrimage stuff was invented after Muhammads death. This would not be hard to believe if the accusations weren't against Muhammad closest disciples and family. At this point these accusations need some serious explanations. Did Israel betray Moses? Did Judas betray Jesus? Yea, sure, but there Prophets still had very close disciples and certain family members who never betrayed them. Muhammad is no exception. To say that Muhammads daughters, wives, best friends all betrayed him is quite a big accusation and without any clear evidence backing it, why should anyone believe these accusations? Once again, the Quran is not clear evidence against the pilgrimage. Sure certain foriegn and pagan practices might have been added to it, but to say the pilgrimage to Mecca was invented by Muhammads closest believers who stuck by him through good and bad, fought many battles by his side, never betrayed him, and whose hearts were unified as the Quran states, you have some serious explaining to do.
-
Dear Riz,
You are right, what Muhammad and his followers did and said is very important to us. However, where does it say that Muhammad was ever in Mecca? And what he did there?
If you look closer at the basis for your perception, you will see that most of this is from the Hadith-collections, or history-books based on tell-tales.Concerning shrines, do you remember the story about Moses and his people building a physical shrine because they did not have any tangible symbol to pray to?
Why do you think God says that suddenly, now it is OK to have a physical shrine to pray in front of?
Has God changed His mind? ?I do not see pilgrimage as a bad thing, but all for the right reason. To go somewhere in order to perform rituals in front of a shrine, well, could there be a better reason to assemble then to copy the straying people of Moses?
Best regds
Ali Omar
-
Now this is exactly what I'm talking about. If you are going to throw out such claims then you better have some evidence backing it up. A lack of evidence is not evidence either. Where does it say Muhammad was in Mecca? Besides the Muslim tradition and history, it fits with the Quran. The Quraysh, the shrine, the pilgrims, and probably other elements which I am missing. Quraysh were in Mecca and no one will deny this, Arab pilgrims used to go to the Kaba for ages and this is accounted for by non arab sources predating Islam such as Ptolemy. Besides, Islam spread outwards from Mecca and no where else. Also if you are to believe Muhammad was foretold in previous scriptures, then you must accept he was in Mecca because these prophecies not only describe Muhammad in Arabia, but mention Mecca. It can be found in Hindu prophecies, Biblical prophecies, and others. Here is one such example http//www.mostmerciful.com/twin-events.htm
So if you want to disregard muslims historians, non muslim historians, other scriptures, thats fine but present some evidence or explanation. The Quran is not a history book, it is a confirmation of the old books, a news of the coming judgment, and a guide. It assumes the audience knows what it refers to an many instances. Why would God say, 'and Muhammad was in Mecca'? Once again, just because the Quran doesn't say Muhammad was in Mecca doesn't mean he wasn't there. It proves nothing and it is highly illogical to throw out so much based on the absense of the Mecca in the Quran.
-
Salaamun alaikum,
Riz So if you want to disregard muslims historians, non muslim historians, other scriptures, thats fine but present some evidence or explanation. The Quran is not a history book, it is a confirmation of the old books, a news of the coming judgment, and a guide. It assumes the audience knows what it refers to an many instances. Why would God say, 'and Muhammad was in Mecca'? Once again, just because the Quran doesn't say Muhammad was in Mecca doesn't mean he wasn't there. It proves nothing and it is highly illogical to throw out so much based on the absense of the Mecca in the Quran.
Where Muhammad was doesn't matter. What matters is where WE are. Al-Quraan is all-consuming prophecy of HUMANITY. Our lives, our being and our existence. Look at your own life and look at the book. Does your life concord with that is right according to the book? You're not going to be asked about where Muhammad was, don't worry.
-
You mean to tell me, if he was in Jerusalem, he would have inclined to the kuffar (17/73-75) ? Would he have retreated in Badr ? Or perhaps been harsh to the companions ?
Would anything in the Quran change if Muhammad was somewhere other than Mecca, Riz ?
If so, what?
