ideas anyone?
-
Perhaps his expalantion is given by his mind being contaminated with jestin, jokin and jeezin. The three J's of jargon.
A little wittiness from Danish my chap -)
Good! Where have you been all this time?
Pirating cd music with your brand new CD writer?
Just kiddin -)As for mind being "contaminated" with jestin, jokin - do you not like homour chap?
Here is a joke
A man with a poodle walks into a bar, orders a drink and asks for a pack of Camels.
The bartender told the man he was sorry, but they had just run out of cigarettes.
"Don't worry 'bout it" reassured the man "I'll just send my dog across the street for some."
Going though his pockets, the man realized he only had a $50 note. "Pack of Camels, pal" he said slipping the money into the dogs mouth "And I want to see plenty of change".
The dog trotted off out the door. "The dog is something else" said an admiring customer "Is he really going to bring you back a pack of cigarettes?"
"You bet. My dog can do anything.."
But then his list of his poodles exploits was interrupted by the screech of tires outside the bar. Turning pale the dogs owner ran outside and to his relief saw his dog had not been hit. The reason for the cars sudden stop was very clear though.
Right in the middle of the road his poodle was humping another dog. "What's going on?" asked the man running up to his dog. "You never did anything like this before!!!"
Humping away the dog looked up and said "I've never had fifty bucks before"Laughter is the sunshine that drives winter from the human face sun
Regards
-
No i havent taken mushrooms, no need to be snide just because you dont understand the basic foundation of what governs your life brother.
I was not snidding chap, I thought you tried these things before? -)
If you had done your homework instead of blabbering away, you would know what im talking about (go to any good law refference library). That you in m.a.law, in fact are a retard and a monster BY DEFINITION OF THE LAW ITSELF!!!
I feel you sound like a retard -)
Just joking.Brilliant economics minds in history have been fooled have they?
And it has taken you and Ali Omar to realise this?
wow man!! - tell us about it all o great wise ones?But if you misplace a dot on your taxbills, they are going to come down on you like ugly on an ape.
Is that your problem - you don't like paying taxes? Hey no one likes paying taxes.
But as God said something like "Fighting as been prescribed for you. Though you don't like it. But there is something good in it"
(I forget the exact verse)But if you don't like paying taxes then go and live in a cummune or some Jewis Kibutz
I am amazed at your lack of compassion.
What do you know anything about compassion?
Name me one compassionate thing you have done in your life apart from feeling sorry for others?To you compassion is blaming others for your misfortune.
To you compassion is blaming others for the failure of all muslim societies!For me compasion is seeing the "good-ness" in others.
Compassion is going beyond labels of "believer" and "Unbeliever" and seeing people as human beings.You just worry about your own ass, and then the rest of the world can go fuck themself, right?
Really? Is that why I have no material possesions in my life?
Is that why I have been supporting people so that they could too also make something of their life?If you for one minute belive that the current democratic model are what it poses to be, you are an idiot, and havent done your homework!
Democracy is not perfect Noah as I said many times before!!!
Democracy is goverments by the People for the People. But generally Democracy is elected Dictatorship. Democracy is Tyranny of the Majority on the Minority. Democracy is not Utopia. Democracy is the best of the worst types of Government. But the one good thing about a Elected Dictatorship is that there is possibility of removing them from their job by peaceful means.Although Democracy is best of the worst types of governments, it has been very successful in delivering economic prosperity and personal liberty to the individuals. And those have adopted democracy and principles of liberty, like defeated nation Japan have achieved spectacular results. But it is true also that economic prosperity in itself is not good indicator of good government, but democracy does give personal liberty and freedom of thought to the individual as opposed to dictatorship where you could have your head chopped off for speaking your mind! Having lived under a oppressive government I prefer any form of "democracy" than anything else.
Regards,
-
A good place to start, using the UNITED STATES coorporation as a case study.
http//www.detaxcanada.org/cmlaw1.htm
Peace
Noah -
Blacks law dictionary. Lawyer and client.
A client is an individual who seeks the advice from an atterney or legal advicer, and is altso reffered to as a ward of the court.
Then you go look at the definition of ward of the court. Ward of the court
"An infant or a person of unsound mind"So in other words. If you hire a lawyer, you are an idiot, by definition of the law.
Thats sweet, and its the whole point lote tree, look into these things. You cannot succed as mankind when the basic framework for all of us is this skewed.
Peace
Noah -
Perhaps his expalantion is given by his mind being contaminated with jestin, jokin and jeezin. The three J's of jargon.
A little wittiness from Danish my chap -)
Good! Where have you been all this time?
Pirating cd music with your brand new CD writer?
Just kiddin -)As for mind being "contaminated" with jestin, jokin - do you not like homour chap?
Oh, sure I do and that's why I gave you one...err...I mean...your type of humour (my signature). wink
A man with a poodle walks into a bar, orders a drink and asks for a pack of Camels.
The bartender told the man he was sorry, but they had just run out of cigarettes.
"Don't worry 'bout it" reassured the man "I'll just send my dog across the street for some."
Going though his pockets, the man realized he only had a $50 note. "Pack of Camels, pal" he said slipping the money into the dogs mouth "And I want to see plenty of change".
The dog trotted off out the door. "The dog is something else" said an admiring customer "Is he really going to bring you back a pack of cigarettes?"
"You bet. My dog can do anything.."
But then his list of his poodles exploits was interrupted by the screech of tires outside the bar. Turning pale the dogs owner ran outside and to his relief saw his dog had not been hit. The reason for the cars sudden stop was very clear though.
Right in the middle of the road his poodle was humping another dog. "What's going on?" asked the man running up to his dog. "You never did anything like this before!!!"
Humping away the dog looked up and said "I've never had fifty bucks before"Laughter is the sunshine that drives winter from the human face sun
Now that's what I call real humour, a good one, which belongs in the Humour secction under Off Topic. lol
-
I was not snidding chap, I thought you tried these things before? -)
Yes im used to you jesting about evertything and pull strawmen.
Brilliant economics minds in history have been fooled have they?
Not excactly fooled. The genious of the system is that those who realise how it works. Are far more interrested in its benefits for themself, than to warn others about it. However, a few good men do excists.
And it has taken you and Ali Omar to realise this?
Using our heads and senses, and read a lot. Anyone with more than 500 braincells can go the library and read books and refference works.
wow man!! - tell us about it all o great wise ones?
lets stay focused on subject, as it is far more interresting than these infantile attempts at being funny.
Is that your problem - you don't like paying taxes? Hey no one likes paying taxes.
I dont mind paying taxes if i can trust those that administrate the money to use them as intended. this is not the case anywhere.
'But as God said something like "Fighting as been prescribed for you. Though you don't like it. But there is something good in it"
(I forget the exact verse)God sure as hell didnt institute maritime admiralty.
But if you don't like paying taxes then go and live in a cummune or some Jewis Kibutz
HELLO LISTEN!!! THEY ARE UNDER ADMIRALTY LAW! AND INTERNATIONAL MARITIME ADMIRALTY LAW ASWELL!
you cannot run away from this luciferian concept. not on this earth. So you can try and educate on it and fight it, or you can be part of the problem. thats your real choices if you understood!What do you know anything about compassion?
Name me one compassionate thing you have done in your life apart from feeling sorry for others?I work for ISRA and soon for Danish Islamic Aid Agency for starters. Dont asume, you know nothing about me.
To you compassion is blaming others for your misfortune.
You are assuming
To you compassion is blaming others for the failure of all muslim societies!
you are assuming
For me compasion is seeing the "good-ness" in others.
regardless of the world in reality falling apart all around you allthough not as much in the open as one would suggest.
Compassion is going beyond labels of "believer" and "Unbeliever" and seeing people as human beings.
I never do anythnig BUT that. you are assuming way to much
Really? Is that why I have no material possesions in my life?
Is that why I have been supporting people so that they could too also make something of their life?Kudos to you, im into doing the excact same thing by letting people know what the real game is, that is being played. I dont think that is unfair at all.
Democracy is not perfect Noah as I said many times before!!!
Democracy is goverments by the People for the People. But generally Democracy is elected Dictatorship. Democracy is Tyranny of the Majority on the Minority. Democracy is not Utopia. Democracy is the best of the worst types of Government. But the one good thing about a Elected Dictatorship is that there is possibility of removing them from their job by peaceful means.Ok, if that is what you want to belive, that is what you want to believe is going on, im not going to stop you.
Although Democracy is best of the worst types of governments, it has been very successful in delivering economic prosperity and personal liberty to the individuals.
At what price? And who is still paying?
And those have adopted democracy and principles of liberty, like defeated nation Japan have achieved spectacular results. But it is true also that economic prosperity in itself is not good indicator of good government, but democracy does give personal liberty and freedom of thought to the individual as opposed to dictatorship where you could have your head chopped off for speaking your mind! Having lived under a oppressive government I prefer any form of "democracy" than anything else.
So where did you experience democracy, please elaborate?
Peace
Noah -
Greetings Senior,
No senore, que tal?
But you wrote the following, didn't you?
Is that our fault as a country that you don't have freedom and personal liberty in your country? If you say yes, then Britain was right to make war to liberate you then? If no, then why complain that we don't care about you?
The first sentence implies that Noah ("you") is blaming your country, or else why would you write "our fault as a country". We already know that "your country" refers to Denmark. Now, look at "Britain was right to make war to liberate you". The "you" cannot be Noah himself, but Denmark, as you mentioned that Britain liberated Denmark. And finally look at "we don't care about you". "we" seems to be refering to Britain so far, going by the flow, because one can say "X did this" or "We did this" to represent X. You are a part of this "we", or else why on earth would you use "we". If you are not British, then perhaps you might want to clarify, who "our coutry", "we" refer to. United States !
Thanks.
Anwar Azim -
Dear LoteTree,
You are constantly misinterpreting what I write, so I begin to wonder how to get through to you.
Let me try to repeat my question to you, and please study the question and come up with an answer to it, please.
Is it the work to produce real values that should be honored or clever manipulation (or should we call it exploitation)?
If you find the question difficult to understand, please tell me and I will try to rephrase it.
But tell me Ali Omar if people in a given society choose to make success of their society by working hard to make it so. Is it fault of this society that others are not making a success of their society?
What is success for a society? That some of the members of this society run around killing others? Has the society then succeeded?
If you see modern business practice is manipulation Ali Omar, then why not use your talent to start out on your own and show us how your business is free from manipulations?
From what you say I take it that you believe it is impossible to do business without lying, cheating, stealing, manipulating/exploiting etc.
I.e. the Qur?an has got it all wrong?Why do you keep ducking direct questions?
Do you see a balanced World as something opposed to a good society???
Please elaborate.Your simple principles of economics, supply and demand, is an illusion my dear friend.
Large manipulators/exploiters control supply through many means.
As an example, while people are starving to death in some areas, communities in areas better off, may destroy enormous quantities of food at the same time, to gain higher prices.
Supply and demand? You are really an innocent mind!Your line of reasoning is something else. How on earth can you confuse building up of a country?s ability to prosper with exploitation???
Building up of the Indian IT industry is slightly different from the British occupation and exploitation of the same area, or don?t you see the difference? Half of the picture is blurred?
Or are you so totally blindfolded when it comes to ?things of the past??Most of the product in Europe is synthetic anyway!
Europe is constructed almost entirely out of plastic chap!No wonder you don?t like coffee, tea or chocolate! You should try the real stuff, plastic is not the same, I guarantee you.
Oh Omar. Japan and the world has come to terms with this tragedy. So why bring it up?
That is that past. Is that only example you can give Ali Omar?For God's sake Omar, let us first come to terms with our tragedy!
Have some compassion man! Give us some time to grieve.You stated that there was a difference between bombing commuter trains with innocent people and bombing other targets, and as I am trying to understand your way of reasoning, let?s see what the differences are
Location London (near)
Target Innocent civilians.
Killed by fellow citizens in a democratic country.
When 2005
Means Bomb
Victims 50+
Instigated by individuals from a group who has declared war.Location Hiroshima (far away)
Target Innocent civilians
Killed by foreign citizens from a democratic country.
When 1945
Means Bomb
Victims abt. 200,000
Instigated by a government who has declared war.Summary
Both targets were innocent civilians, killed by bombs, taken by total surprise.
Both incidents activated by citizens from democratic countries.
Both instigated by humans who had declared war against the attacked country.
Both attacks were done by bombs.
London is located near, whereas Hiroshima is far away.
London victims 50+, Hiroshima victims abt. 200,000
London bombing happened in 2005, Hiroshima bombing happened in 1945.The differences I can see is that in the case of London bombings, the location is nearer to your place whereas Hiroshima is far away.
Number of victims in Hiroshima was abt. 4,000 times more than in London.
London bombings happened near in time, whereas Hiroshima bombing happened many years ago.Your reasoning must then be as follows
Killing of innocent civilians in London is different from killing innocent civilians in Hiroshima becauseIt is nearer in location and time and the attackers were fellow citizens. However, number of victims is irrelevant.
And when a government decides to do it, it is a different matter altogether.To me both these cases are horrendous and absolutely non-acceptable.
But, hey, that is also what the Qur?an says, so maybe I am influenced by that, which you obviously are not.I understand thoroughly, that it is not possible to ?sell? the idea of a system following the words of God to you.
You are perfectly satisfied with your own little rose garden, and if it is disturbed, you get very upset. Not so much because people get killed, but it disturbs your own peace and tranquility. Maybe you can find another place that someone has struggled and strived and made ready for you? Where you can reap the fruits of other people?s labor?
You are pathetic, and I feel sad for you. But, who knows, maybe, given time, you will grow up to become a reflecting human being.
Regards
Ali Omar
-
Brilliant economics minds in history have been fooled have they?
Not excactly fooled. The genious of the system is that those who realise how it works. Are far more interrested in its benefits for themself, than to warn others about it. However, a few good men do excists.
Yep, thousands of economist are really benefitting from this secret knowledge! If economist were really rich then thousands of them would flocking to do economics degree!
And it has taken you and Ali Omar to realise this?
Using our heads and senses, and read a lot. Anyone with more than 500 braincells can go the library and read books and refference works.
And eating magic mushrooms?
Is that your problem - you don't like paying taxes? Hey no one likes paying taxes.
I dont mind paying taxes if i can trust those that administrate the money to use them as intended. this is not the case anywhere.
Then that is your Real Issue - your tax being spent correctly! So work hard to make it so.
But as God said something like "Fighting as been prescribed for you. Though you don't like it. But there is something good in it"
(I forget the exact verse)God sure as hell didnt institute maritime admiralty.
If War is good for you then God is the driving force behind the Idealogy of Hatred?
But if you don't like paying taxes then go and live in a cummune or some Jewis Kibutz
HELLO LISTEN!!! THEY ARE UNDER ADMIRALTY LAW! AND INTERNATIONAL MARITIME ADMIRALTY LAW ASWELL!
you cannot run away from this luciferian concept. not on this earth. So you can try and educate on it and fight it, or you can be part of the problem. thats your real choices if you understood!Do you know how KIBUTZ operate chap? Their community is not based on MONEY! So your problem dissappears chap!!!! -)
What do you know anything about compassion?
Name me one compassionate thing you have done in your life apart from feeling sorry for others?I work for ISRA and soon for Danish Islamic Aid Agency for starters. Dont asume, you know nothing about me.
So working for Danish Islamic Aid Agency is Compassion to you?
Is that all compassion is about? Giving people hand-outs so that it makes you feel all good inside? Is that how you see compassion?regardless of the world in reality falling apart all around you allthough not as much in the open as one would suggest.
Your reality is falling apart. You live in a society that you have no connection for nor do you like the liberty and freedoms it gives you but you easily connect yourself with anyone who is "Muslim", that is why you work for an "Muslim" Aid agency. Is that limit of your compassion? Muslims?
Really? Is that why I have no material possesions in my life?
Is that why I have been supporting people so that they could too also make something of their life?Kudos to you, im into doing the excact same thing by letting people know what the real game is, that is being played. I dont think that is unfair at all.
I don't think you got my point. I don't have material possessions. But I don't hate people who do! Material things never interested me. But I dont stop people who wants to acquire material things!
Democracy is not perfect Noah as I said many times before!!!
Democracy is goverments by the People for the People. But generally Democracy is elected Dictatorship. Democracy is Tyranny of the Majority on the Minority. Democracy is not Utopia. Democracy is the best of the worst types of Government. But the one good thing about a Elected Dictatorship is that there is possibility of removing them from their job by peaceful means.Ok, if that is what you want to belive, that is what you want to believe is going on, im not going to stop you.
I don't think you can stop democracy chap! It serves humanity best. Embrace and improve it. Let muslim societies embrace it and improve it or else muslim societies will be become irrelevant to people lives.
Although Democracy is best of the worst types of governments, it has been very successful in delivering economic prosperity and personal liberty to the individuals.
At what price? And who is still paying?
So WHAT have you in it's place? Dictatorship and Cummunism?
Where you have no liberty or personal freedom?So where did you experience democracy, please elaborate?
Let me put it this way I HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED DEMOCRACY IN MUSLIM STATES nor will I ever will -)
Regards,
-
The first sentence implies that Noah ("you") is blaming your country, or else why would you write "our fault as a country". We already know that "your country" refers to Denmark. Now, look at "Britain was right to make war to liberate you". The "you" cannot be Noah himself, but Denmark, as you mentioned that Britain liberated Denmark. And finally look at "we don't care about you". "we" seems to be refering to Britain so far, going by the flow, because one can say "X did this" or "We did this" to represent X. You are a part of this "we", or else why on earth would you use "we". If you are not British, then perhaps you might want to clarify, who "our coutry", "we" refer to. United States !
Thanks.
Anwar Azimguten tag Anwar,
Sind Sie ein Detektiv?
Auf Wiedersehen -)
-
Yep, thousands of economist are really benefitting from this secret knowledge! If economist were really rich then thousands of them would flocking to do economics degree!
It all comes down to morals, and as i said. There are still good men.
But dont take my word for it, its all avaible for you to read about in several sources. A good place to start could be reading some of Ludwig von Mises works on finances through fractional reserve banking.And eating magic mushrooms?
No i dont do mushrooms
Then that is your Real Issue - your tax being spent correctly! So work hard to make it so.
No the real problem is the system behind the taxes, as i have tried to point out. The very basics of the system is flawed, and designed to protect the has a lots from the has nots.
If War is good for you then God is the driving force behind the Idealogy of Hatred?
strawman. this has nothing to do with m.a.l or the subject at hand.
Do you know how KIBUTZ operate chap? Their community is not based on MONEY! So your problem dissappears chap!!!! -)
Im well aware of how a kibutz operate. And thats not true. They aren ot located on mars, and thus outside of m.a.l juristiction. and m.a.l is just one of many problems that needs to be sorted, but can be from the bottom. I cant even be from state level.
So working for Danish Islamic Aid Agency is Compassion to you?
Is that all compassion is about?And helping people who get in trouble with the law, and helping people who feel miserable, and we help frustrated youngsters, and collect for stuff they can do rather than being frustrated. Compassion work on many levels, and a good start is to not accepting corrupt regimes that may take care of some of its OWN citizes, but fuck everybody over in the 3rd world, and most people in their own country, to make it possible.
Giving people hand-outs so that it makes you feel all good inside? Is that how you see compassion?
You are free to believe my motivation is to "feel good inside"
Your reality is falling apart. You live in a society that you have no connection for nor do you like the liberty and freedoms it gives you but you easily connect yourself with anyone who is "Muslim", that is why you work for an "Muslim" Aid agency. Is that limit of your compassion? Muslims?
No we do not discriminate when getting sponsors for children wich is our main objective. Finding providers for orphans, so they can have food everyday and go to shcool. We dont care what the children or providers belive in, as im sure God doesnt give a care as long as they are provided for.
I don't think you got my point. I don't have material possessions. But I don't hate people who do! Material things never interested me. But I dont stop people who wants to acquire material things!
Neither do i. It is you who wants this to be about envy and lazyness. Not us.
I don't think you can stop democracy chap! It serves humanity best. Embrace and improve it. Let muslim societies embrace it and improve it or else muslim societies will be become irrelevant to people lives.
Im not going to stop it. It will halt itself. Do not get me wrong, i haveno problem with the CONCEPT of democracy, only, its not actually in effect anywhere. Just like our "utopia", the democracy you present is non excisting either. in thory it is, but theory is just that., theory.
So WHAT have you in it's place? Dictatorship and Cummunism?
Where you have no liberty or personal freedom?Theocracy. A few basic unchangeable rules that secures the public against the rulers. things like usury being illegal etc.
I dont know what is worse, overt, or covert control. Overt control is all in your face. overt control through adminstrative and coorporative facism is sneaky. It gives an illusion of freedom, when it in facts gives less than liberty.Let me put it this way I HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED DEMOCRACY IN MUSLIM STATES nor will I ever will -)
but that wasnt the question at all
Peace
Noah -
Dear LoteTree,
You are constantly misinterpreting what I write, so I begin to wonder how to get through to you.I am misinterpreting or am I showing the hollowness of your arguments?
Is it the work to produce real values that should be honored or clever manipulation (or should we call it exploitation)?
Omar the way you say it, it sounds it is only through manipulation that people make something with their life?
I have not nor my friends have manipulated anyone to make success of our lives. We worked hard with what we had.
But tell me Omar - If a company locates to India due to skilled workers for example but the workforce is paid the market rate for that country. Is that manipulation?
But tell me Ali Omar if people in a given society choose to make success of their society by working hard to make it so. Is it fault of this society that others are not making a success of their society?
What is success for a society?
Success in terms of giving freedom and liberty to it's individual members, peace and stability of civil government. Giving opportunity to each members make something with their life.
If you see modern business practice is manipulation Ali Omar, then why not use your talent to start out on your own and show us how your business is free from manipulations?
From what you say I take it that you believe it is impossible to do business without lying, cheating, stealing, manipulating/exploiting etc.
I.e. the Qur?an has got it all wrong?I gave you a challenge since you see anyone making something with their lives means clever manipulation. My friends are running successful business without any manipulation of anyone. But you see it different. If you see it different then show us your way chap! But I think your problem lies with yourself. That imaginary "Quranic" Ideal made you blinkered!
Why do you keep ducking direct questions?
Do you see a balanced World as something opposed to a good society???
Please elaborate.Your problem is you ask this question How do we construct Good Society?
and I keep telling the way you construct good society is that you apply democracy and principles of freedom and liberty.Then you say why there are unrest in other parts of the world?
How does that relate to how to govern individuals in a SOCIETY?
Can you not see this?
Europeans after second world war managed to create Good Societies. Have they gone to war with each other since the second world war?
Have they managed to deliver peace and stability to its members and opportunities to make something with their life?
Your simple principles of economics, supply and demand, is an illusion my dear friend.
Is that Karl Marx again?
Communism is dead. Move on chap.Large manipulators/exploiters control supply through many means.
If you think that is the case then take up the challenge to do something different! Like Dr. Yunis with his micro-credit revolution! His idea countered the big banks who only lend money to the credit-worth as opposed to credit-needy. This is called INNOVATION chap! be innovative and stop complaing about the ills of the world. And there are many ills in this world. Complaining about it will not solve anything. But do something about it!
As an example, while people are starving to death in some areas, communities in areas better off, may destroy enormous quantities of food at the same time, to gain higher prices.
Yes, European Grain mountains have been a problem. But I think it is not like the way used to be once. But you can say this due to great success of European Model of governement? They are able to make more food for its people than communism ever could! And if all the Muslim societies adopted the European Model of governance then they could too have grain mountains! But there is no excuse for having grain mountains. Giving away all this excess food to Africa will be a good idea and Eurpeans should, but I don't think it will solve African poverty. To solve this good governance is required. This governance can't be imposed. The people must build it themselves.
Supply and demand? You are really an innocent mind!
No. Pragmatic mind. There are always buyers and sellers. This how ECONOMICS WORKS -)
This what I have written.
So do you want all the IT companies to pull out from India because Indian IT technicians are not paid the same as the western IT Technicians? Is this the Equality you want? Everyone is paid the same? This is communism chap. It will never happen.
This is what you wrote in reply
Your line of reasoning is something else. How on earth can you confuse building up of a country?s ability to prosper with exploitation???
Building up of the Indian IT industry is slightly different from the British occupation and exploitation of the same area, or don?t you see the difference? Half of the picture is blurred?
Or are you so totally blindfolded when it comes to ?things of the past??You did not answer my question. Is Equality you are talking about is that everyone gets paid the same?
Most of the product in Europe is synthetic anyway!
Europe is constructed almost entirely out of plastic chap!No wonder you don?t like coffee, tea or chocolate! You should try the real stuff, plastic is not the same, I guarantee you.
That is why European come and buy the real things from you chap. Simple SUPPLY and DEMAND. It is called ECONOMICS.
You stated that there was a difference between bombing commuter trains with innocent people and bombing other targets, and as I am trying to understand your way of reasoning, let?s see what the differences are
But you bring an example from the past. The past that we have left behind. The past that Japanese left behind. Give me an example from Iraq War chap where packed commuter trains have been blown up in a deliberate, callous and barbaric way!
To me both these cases are horrendous and absolutely non-acceptable.
But, hey, that is also what the Qur?an says, so maybe I am influenced by that, which you obviously are not.And it is this same Quran has been used to justify suicide bombings?
I understand thoroughly, that it is not possible to ?sell? the idea of a system following the words of God to you.
"SELL"? lets say there is no DEMAND for it -)
You have not convinced me. You think everyone following Quran will make the world a Utopia? But I have told you. The Quran has been around for 1400 years. So where is the Quranic Utopia?
But you say none has practicied Quran properly - that is always the excuse isn't it? That has always been the excuse!!!
You can't build a STATE from an IMAGINARY starting point! You have to start with what you have and build on it by educating people.
You are perfectly satisfied with your own little rose garden, and if it is disturbed, you get very upset. Not so much because people get killed, but it disturbs your own peace and tranquility. Maybe you can find another place that someone has struggled and strived and made ready for you?
My Rose garden is the WHOLE world. And it's roses are the WHOLE humanity regardless if they FOLLOW THE QURAN OR NOT. But I know there are patches of weeds in some parts of the Garden including my own. But I know I can't tackle all the weeds by myself but I do certainly do the things I CAN DO instead of trying to tackle everything by myself and failing to do anything! This is PRAGMATISM.
Where you can reap the fruits of other people?s labor?
I do no such thing. I had nothing to start with. I worked hard for everything I have and I never manipulated anyone for my sucesses. Do you envy my success Ali Omar?
You are pathetic, and I feel sad for you.
Oh Omar, only if you knew me!
Yes, I have been made to feel worthless and useless! I had my share of failures. But hey I did not blame anyone. I worked very hard day and night to make something with my life. Some called it "courageous", some called it "dignifiying" - but to you I am PATHETIC?But, who knows, maybe, given time, you will grow up to become a reflecting human being.
Is that why my art work was displayed during the Community Fund raising event for the Victims of Bangladeshi Flood victims in the 1980s?
Or my poem of Unity was circulated to all the company offices after the Istanbul bombings?
"When others hate you do not grieve; do not feel sad.
The course of action you have chosen,
The direction you have taken,
Will overcome your bouts of depressions,
Your re-occuring fits-of-pain-of-separation
For the ones you have loved,
Becuse, I am there with you, always
Holding your hand... -
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Bonjour!, Monsieur LoteTree,
But, who knows, maybe, given time, you will grow up to become a reflecting human being.
Is that why my art work was displayed during the Community Fund raising event for the Victims of Bangladeshi Flood victims in the 1980s?
Did you mean 1988? That was a major flooding event. And then there was another one ten years later, in 1998, one of the largest floods of the century, that covered two-thirds of the country!
Au revoir!
Anwar Azim -
Dear LoteTree,
I would be very pleased to learn that I have misjudged you. What you wrote here is contradicting much of the impression you have given earlier, and shows a person caring beyond your own back yard.
Then maybe you understand more than you have given others reason to believe?I do not believe that manipulating/exploitation is a decent way to reach your goals, therefore I am not very fond of modern business techniques. I was caught up in it, and therefore have first hand experience of what it can be like. However, I also have first hand experience of the fact that there are other ways to do business. You may not get rich in money, but I must say the life is less stressful and the satisfaction is far grater.
However, we are all slaves under the world?s monetary system which is a house without foundation.Please do not confuse me with having a communistic world view, I know what that is like in practice, and I also know it does not work.
However, I also have experienced democracy, and I am less then impressed by it.
Humans in a democracy have a notion of freedom, but that is just another illusion, you have a certain freedom within borders set by the rulers. Try to overstep them and watch what happens.
A democracy is as good as its leaders, just as in any other form of government.
The leaders are usually chosen depending on their power and influence in the community. Not based on their sound minds and/or care for the welfare of the masses in their community.The difference between a modern democracy and a dictatorship is that you can vote to choose a majority dictator even though your decisions are heavily ?guided?, but in the case of a minority dictator you have no say at all.
In the community I presently live in, we are fortunate, we are given the illusion of electing our leaders, and we have dictators who are clever enough to keep a balance. I?d say we have got the ?best? of both worlds.Supply and demand
The fact of life is that if the production increases, the prices of the products tend to decrease. The Earth can produce enough food and other necessities for everybody. The shortage in some areas and oversupply in others has to do with economy. It is due to cold, self-centered, human greed that people die of starvation in our world.
It is very seldom due to laziness.I fully agree that to feed healthy ?normal? human beings as a charity is shear stupidity, but it help ease the minds of the ?givers?, and keep the receivers from changing their faith. (another matter is to give support during crises)
There are numerous examples of the effects of this.IMF and the World Bank are exponents for this policy. Countries that produced enough food for everybody within their communities, were given large loans trough these institutions to produce more effectively, and were told what to produce. Result was they ended up with a much larger production but prices for the excess production, for export, dropped tremendously and farmers went broke as they could not earn enough to pay back their loans and/or to keep new modern equipment working. End result, starvation in areas where this was earlier nonexistent.
So, I am not talking about feeding people in a way that makes them beggars, but to help to give others a real opportunity to ?make something? of their life.
I am not talking about equality as giving everyone the same pay. I am talking about giving people the same opportunity to develop and earn and live according to their contribution.This is actually in line with the teachings of the Qur?an.
So, my question is, is this possible, do we really want it, can we do it? And how?
You say there is no demand for it.
I?d rather say the demand is there but we don?t understand how basic it is, and therefore keep on with our half-measures getting nowhere, fast.
But then again I do not know how to supply it, hence my questions.Regards
Ali Omar
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Hello Omar,
I would be very pleased to learn that I have misjudged you. What you wrote here is contradicting much of the impression you have given earlier, and shows a person caring beyond your own back yard. Then maybe you understand more than you have given others reason to believe?
-)
I guess carrying the world burdens on your shoulders Omar is never easy is it? But even those that do not believe in a God also carry this burden too. And those that believe in a God then the burden is doubly hard.
However, I also have experienced democracy, and I am less then impressed by it. Humans in a democracy have a notion of freedom, but that is just another illusion, you have a certain freedom within borders set by the rulers.
But you must know Ali Omar, Democracy is a human concept. That is why you can see the human imperfections in it's conception. But democracy did not spring up from a vacuum. It evolved from it's beginings in Ancient Greece to it's current form. Democracy is a evolutionary product and therefore it will continue to evolve to meet the challenges of the future.
Try to overstep them and watch what happens.
But we all need some rule to live by don't we? And if you agreed to live in a society with certain rules - why do you want to overstep then? If the rule does not address the problems of society then change it.
A democracy is as good as its leaders, just as in any other form of government. The leaders are usually chosen depending on their power and influence in the community. Not based on their sound minds and/or care for the welfare of the masses in their community.
The difference between a modern democracy and a dictatorship is that you can vote to choose a majority dictator even though your decisions are heavily ?guided?, but in the case of a minority dictator you have no say at all.
Then you can change this of democracy? Democracy allows you to change how you elect your leaders? You could for instance ensure that democratic leaders have certain IQ and the they have no criminal convictions and they have shown to have done good works for the community?
Supply and demand
The fact of life is that if the production increases, the prices of the products tend to decrease.That is for sure!
The Earth can produce enough food and other necessities for everybody. The shortage in some areas and oversupply in others has to do with economy.It is due to cold, self-centered, human greed that people die of starvation in our world . It is very seldom due to laziness.
How do you overcome greed?
So, I am not talking about feeding people in a way that makes them beggars, but to help to give others a real opportunity to ?make something? of their life. I am not talking about equality as giving everyone the same pay. I am talking about giving people the same opportunity to develop and earn and live according to their contribution.
Yep this is what we want in our societies. Real opportunity for individuals to make something with their life.
So, my question is, is this possible, do we really want it, can we do it? And how?
You say there is no demand for it.But democracy already does this for us?
We just need to improve it, yes?I?d rather say the demand is there but we don?t understand how basic it is, and therefore keep on with our half-measures getting nowhere, fast.
But then again I do not know how to supply it, hence my questions.You can't supply something if there is no need for it even if you think there is one. If there is a need then people will demand it, people will ask for it, people will seek it.
Can we not make democracy better? It is after all a evolutionary product borne out of experiences in human history?
Regards,
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Dear LoteTree,
I do not undertake to carry the World?s burdens on my own, but I do feel that some people like to ease their part and offload it on someone else to carry.
And this has nothing to do with whether you claim to believe in God or not.It is true; democracy has been developing since the time of ancient Greece. It is a slow process and has resulted in many varying systems, none of which are true democracies. Maybe there is a certain parallel to the human development of God?s system?
But we all need some rule to live by don't we? And if you agreed to live in a society with certain rules - why do you want to overstep then? If the rule does not address the problems of society then change it.
Yes, we need rules, absolutely. But in a so-called democracy, the rules are made by the leaders, just like in any other system. A majority does not make things right in a community. However, you are free to try to persuade others to follow your ideas and if you are able to gather enough people you can change the rules to fit your needs. But, again, does this make it right? Is the community getting better for everybody?
The system of God is highlighting the necessity to choose leaders based on their quality as a whole, including knowledge and/or IQ, and is therefore taking into account the whole community, not just a certain majority who could be totally wrong in most matters.
A democracy, just like Gods system, allows you to choose your leaders, the difference lays in the criteria to become, and to stay on, as a leader. Here democracy, as we know it, has gone wrong.
If you look at how many inhabitants of democratic countries have been killed by their own leaders, or by other democratic countries, during the last century, you will find a staggering figure.
Is this democracy?
If so, then you may keep it!How do you overcome greed?
Through democracy perhaps?
I understand that you mean democracy gives us real opportunity to make something of our lives. Millions of people who have died at the hands of democracies would object, they managed to get killed and maybe that was not what was fist on their list?
You can't supply something if there is no need for it even if you think there is one. If there is a need then people will demand it, people will ask for it, people will seek it.
Marketing specialists will tell you that needs are created. It is the first basic step to sell a product. Switch on your TV and pick out the products advertised, that people are asking for because of their natural unsatisfied need.
Specialists will also tell you that it does not matter what the product is as long as the marketing is ?perfect?.Yes, we can make democracy better; just follow the guidelines of God!
How to develop something into something better, based on experiences from human history when some people don?t want to take history into account? (I will refrain from naming individuals, but maybe someone feel the shoe fits?)Regards
Ali Omar
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It is true; democracy has been developing since the time of ancient Greece. It is a slow process and has resulted in many varying systems, none of which are true democracies. Maybe there is a certain parallel to the human development of God?s system?
I think any system that is result of thousand years of accumulative development and remains open to further development like way the democracy is then it is indeed something that can serve humanity best. Whether it is along God's system or not - you can decide. To me it is not important. What is important is that it works in serving humanity best. If it does not serve humanity well then it will be changed without great fanfare just like we have changed many things in our history.
Yes, we need rules, absolutely. But in a so-called democracy, the rules are made by the leaders, just like in any other system. A majority does not make things right in a community. However, you are free to try to persuade others to follow your ideas and if you are able to gather enough people you can change the rules to fit your needs.
Thats how democracy works.
But, again, does this make it right? Is the community getting better for everybody?
Democractic societies seems to be doing really well. So there is the proof?
The system of God is highlighting the necessity to choose leaders based on their quality as a whole, including knowledge and/or IQ, and is therefore taking into account the whole community, not just a certain majority who could be totally wrong in most matters.
That is why "majority" in any demoracy requires education so that they make best of decisions.
A democracy, just like Gods system, allows you to choose your leaders, the difference lays in the criteria to become, and to stay on, as a leader. Here democracy, as we know it, has gone wrong.
But democracy allows you to change how you select and elect your leaders.
If you look at how many inhabitants of democratic countries have been killed by their own leaders, or by other democratic countries, during the last century, you will find a staggering figure.
Democratic societies kills its own citizens?
I think you are talking about Dictatorships - Russian Gulags, Saddams Torture chambers, Poll Pots killing fields etc...
How do you overcome greed?
Through democracy perhaps?
No. Democracy is how you govern yourself. Greed is overcome through cultivating and nurturing human compassion in ourselves and others.
I understand that you mean democracy gives us real opportunity to make something of our lives. Millions of people who have died at the hands of democracies would object, they managed to get killed and maybe that was not what was fist on their list?
No. Millions of UK citizens did not die under its democracy. You are talking about Dictatorships.
You can't supply something if there is no need for it even if you think there is one. If there is a need then people will demand it, people will ask for it, people will seek it.
Marketing specialists will tell you that needs are created. It is the first basic step to sell a product. Switch on your TV and pick out the products advertised, that people are asking for because of their natural unsatisfied need.
But God is not a Commodity you could trade on the Stock Market.
Yes, we can make democracy better; just follow the guidelines of God!
But according to Ayman, Quran is Anti-democractic?
How to develop something into something better, based on experiences from human history when some people don?t want to take history into account?
But democracy is borne out of human experiences of the past whether individuals choose it or not. The evolution continues.
Regards