Discrepancies in the Quran
-
Peace Oyuni,
Perhaps instead of engaging in a diatribe, you would care to explain what offended you so much. In my view you it seems you are responding to what you want to see. Albion's posts here go a long way and we are aware of his preconceived notions. I am free to challenge and give it in the same measure. If you think I have exceeded show me how!
And, respectfully refer to my post carefully, I said I might read Warraqs book someday! Aren't you jumping to your own conclusions here? I simply have a long reading list right now and its not a priority. Am I closed minded because my priorities are not the same as yours? I was trying to be helpful to you by suggesting a seperate thread so people can see, perhaps responding was a big mistake.
No hard feelings this time D
Peace and security wink
regards
-
Really, do you believe this with sound analysis and reasoning as opposed to the fact that it might invalidate your belief that Jesus is a god
Can you post a quote from one of my posts where I've ever said that is my belief.... wish you luck!!
And if you cant post a link to a post where I have said that, than you are just doing what Muhamad did... i.e Misquoting, but in Muhammads case he Misquoted bot God and Iblis.
Back up your claim please!!
-
Albion,
Show me where does it say in the Qur'an it is a word for word record? This is your interpretation of consistency and not of the Qur'an. You have not answered one challenge and you're bringing your self into the debate.
Incidentally, I speculated you were a christian and I should have known better you would say "jesus is god" and nitpick. Or aren't you a christian? Where did I say this is my assertion? It was very clear I was speculating there making a rhetorical argument. Can I take it you were not making assertions but speculating likewise, in all instances? That will do for me lol
-
.It was very clear I was speculating there making a rhetorical argument.
The same as Muhammad speculated what God and Iblis said, and got it wrong 3 times. .
Show me where does it say in the Qur'an it is a word for word record?
That question has already been addressed
3875 He said O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before that which I have created with both My hands ? Art thou too proud or art thou of the high exalted?
This is a QUOTE.. It starts with God saying in the third person singular "He said" and than changed to first person singular, stating what God himself said to Iblis. He starts "O Iblis.. " so he is clearly addressing Iblis in the first person and quoting what God himself said in the first person "I have created".
Now a question for any here who is game to answer it
What did God SAY to Iblis when Iblis refused to prostate before Adam ?
God has told you exactly what he said so it shouldn't be hard for someone here to answer that question!!
-
It seems you are all having troubles answering this question..
What did God SAY to Iblis when Iblis refused to prostate before Adam ?
God has told you exactly what he said so it shouldn't be hard for someone here to answer that question!!
Now for the Next Discrepancy in the quran
930 The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD" while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.
Muhammad had many mistakes when he took material from other sources like the Bible etc. But how Muhammad made the mistake of thinking the Jews say that Ezra is the son of God is a mistery.
There is nothing in the Torah (OT) that even hints at Ezra ever being called the son of God. So Muhammad must have got this bit of misinformation from another source.
But where ever Muhammad got this wrong information from it is more evidence that the Quran is NOT from God because God wouldn't make such a mistake
-
Dear Ash Shuura
You asked what offended me... First it did not offend me personally but I felt that your reply was not portraying peace and tolerance but division and agression. You wrote
"But, you christians are pissed off as we are still here, and you would have preferred us to just curl up and die.
In the name of GOD, is in the name of justice. You kill in the name of country in self defense and for phoney reasons and kill hundreds and thousands. It is OK to kill for secular reasons but not in the name of GOD, who has no need for you to kill for Him, but merely so that you survive. "What do THE CHRISTIANS have to do with you and Albion, even if Albion was a Christian? And the Christians you are talking about are some fanatic Americans and may be some Europeans, what characterizes them more than being Christians is the fact that they belong to the countries that are currently ruling the world, politics is politics and politicians like to misguide their people by using religion. What about all the other Christians in Africa, Asia and Latin America? Are you talking about them as well? And what about all the Christians who are against these wars, against scrupelous money making, etc and who have never even thought about Muslims curling up and dying??? - i think they are in a majority. And independent of this statement Do you know that the majority of British and Spanish population opposed their governments when they joined the US forces in Iraq????
My point was just, that you should not generalize and I am worried that many people have these stereotypical ideas and spread them and create hatred and mistrust.
And apart from that I know quite a few Muslims who are also in doubt whether the Qur'an is the word from God or not, and they ask similar questions as Albion does. What would you say to them??? I think asking is the best thing you can do, it will only bring you closer to the truth (generally speaking it will either confirm your view or show you new possibilities or a different truth), assuming that one is really open for all possible answers and evaluates them carefully. I myself have a lot of questions about a few Suras, and I hope to discuss them with you guys when I finish my thesis, because now I do not have enough time.
But what I surely believe is that GOD wants peace and love and not hatred and agression. And what I also believe is that love and understanding creates more love and peace and attacking creates more hatred and agression. Even if you are all pissed off with Albion because he asks questions that you do not like and is not satisfied with your answers, no matter whether he is a Muslim, a Christian or sth else, I think that you can either conclude that you will never agree or keep trying convincing each other, but without the kind of attacks that I feel are completely wrong. Do you know what I mean?????? Sorry, if I intruded to much in your thread, but I feel that this kind of communication is part of if not basis of all the conflicts between religions that we witness on this globe.
I would appreciate to hear your opinion on this.
Salaam,
Oyuni
PS I am not a Christian -
I would appreciate to hear your opinion on this.
Peace Oyuni,
I hear what you say but I don't share your views. You seem to subscribe to the notion everyone is without ideology and rational human beings. Well, they aren't. Some people here are here to pursue their preconceived notions and the mode of discussion will have to be altered on that basis. You don't use reason in response to lack of reason!
You just have to work each individual out for yourself over time may I respectfully suggest.
Peace
-
It seems all here are having trobles explaining the discrepanies in the Quran...
Just to remind you., I will repost the questions that remain unanswered becfore we move on to the next discrepancy
It seems you are all having troubles answering this question..
What did God SAY to Iblis when Iblis refused to prostate before Adam ?
God has told you exactly what he said so it shouldn't be hard for someone here to answer that question!!
Now for the Next Discrepancy in the quran
930 The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD" while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.
Muhammad had many mistakes when he took material from other sources like the Bible etc. But how Muhammad made the mistake of thinking the Jews say that Ezra is the son of God is a mistery.
There is nothing in the Torah (OT) that even hints at Ezra ever being called the son of God. So Muhammad must have got this bit of misinformation from another source.
But where ever Muhammad got this wrong information from it is more evidence that the Quran is NOT from God because God wouldn't make such a mistake
-
We haven't accepted your claims
-
We haven't accepted your claims
What did God SAY to Iblis when Iblis refused to prostate before Adam ?
That a question NOT a claim!!
So far all have FAILED to account for the first discrepanices... stay tuned because more to come
-
That a question NOT a claim!!
A question based on a false premise is not a valid question. We can all ask false questions and ignore challenges to our premises.
-
This is what the false prophet Muhammad CLAIMS
930 The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD" while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.
-
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/ezra.html
-
Thanks carrot but the ATTEMPT in that articles was to try to explain the discrepancy by saying that MUHAMMAD thought SOME jews had such a belief.
MUHAMMAD and SOME and ATTEMPT are the key words
Firstly it's a typical Muslim ATTEMPT at twisting History and the Arabic text
Secondly it clearly says it was MUHAMMAD'S view so adds to the weight of evidence that it is MUHAMMAD'S CLAIM, because God would not had made such a mistake.
Thirdly the verse in the quran doesn't say SOME Jews, the way it is worded it say the MAIN STREAM Jews
Plus if you want to explain a condradiction the place NOT to find the explaination is on a Muslim propoganda site... But thanks for trying
-
Peace Albion,
Firstly it's a typical Muslim ATTEMPT at twisting History and the Arabic text
This is not a rational argument it is a rhetorical one. Perhaps you can show how they twisted the arabic and history and prove your position.
the verse in the quran doesn't say SOME Jews, the way it is worded it say the MAIN STREAM Jews
Well you're quite right it does not say SOME but neither it says ALL Jews either. Why do you accept it does not say "SOME" but you accept it to be "ALL"? Why did you choose that particular personal interpretation?
if you want to explain a condradiction the place NOT to find the explaination is on a Muslim propoganda site...
Why don't you focus on the arguments as oppossed to attempting to label? Would you like us to label you who is someone making his own propaganda or would you prefer us to address your arguments?
-
http//www.shiachat.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t27200.html
Banda-e-KhudaMar 15 2004, 0349 PM
Technically speaking, it is incorrect to make a claim that if you don't find evidence of such a belief in the Jewish religious history, then it never existed. Especially considering the fact that there are other instances where one find that some (not all) Jewish people did believe some sacred figure to be so near to God (in some mystically mysterious way) as to be part of God.
For example, I remember reading somewhere that some (again not all) followers of Sabbatai Zevi believed him to have attained the status of Divine after making the "holy apostasy". Now, if that belief can exist in the 17th century, I won't be surprised to find that some jewish cult around 7th century near Hijaz believed in some divine Ezra. Again, not generalizing it to the whole of Jewish history or believers.
http//www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_25_The_Second_Temple.asp
The Jews who rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem are very well-meaning people but they were sadly lacking in leadership.
To fill the vacuum comes Ezra.
A scribe and scholar and a Jewish community leader in Persia, Ezra, a cohen, hears that the Jewish community in the Holy Land is floundering with neither king nor prophet. So, he takes with him 1,496 well-chosen men with leadership abilities and comes to the rescue.
Ezra is so well thought of in the Talmud that it is written of him that "the Torah could have been given to Israel through Ezra, if not that Moses preceded him" (Sanhedrin 21b).
This high praise goes to Ezra for the spiritual rebuilding of the Jewish people and his efforts to reinstate Torah law in the land.
http//www.answering-christianity.com/quran/qb005.htm
The Second Book of Esdras is an apocalypse that attempts to explain why God allowed the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem to be destroyed by Gentiles in AD 70. The book claims to report seven visions of Ezra the Scribe concerning ethical issues and the problem of evil and suffering. The first three revelations (31?925) concern the angel Uriel?s instructions to Ezra about the spiritual-moral realm. In the fourth revelation (926?1059), Ezra witnesses a mourning woman change into the heavenly Jerusalem. The fifth and sixth revelations (11?13) condemn the Roman Empire and forecast its destruction along with other evil Gentile nations by a messiah. The seventh revelation (14) describes This revelation closes with Ezra being taken into heaven without dying. Ezra?s role in producing the books included in the canonical Scriptures (the 22 books in the Hebrew Bible) and the (70) apocryphal books. Chapters 1 and 2 and 15 and 16 are generally recognized as subsequent Christian interpolations.
http//latter-rain.com/ltrain/ezra.htm
Ezra was a prophet through whom God spoke to the people. He was a lover of God's book at a time when the book of the Lord was almost forgotten.
All over the world the Jews look upon Ezra as the greatest man in their history except Moses. They call him the second founder of Israel.
And He brought with him the decree from Artaxerxes, the king, giving the authority to Ezra to set magistrates and judges and to enforce, said the decree, the "law of your God, and the law of the king."
Even the christians don't say jesus is the son of God, they say he is god in some magical mystical way...no need to go any further than the forum...take for example the case of the conjoined twins apple + pie (who mysteriously always talk in the collective)...so for ezra to be divine/god/son of/part of in the same contorted vein is entirely feasible and sure as hell ain't a contradiction...
-
There is NO, NONE and ZERO evidence that Jews do or have EVER said or believed that Ezra is Son of God. Not even SOME Jews....
The Prophets are divided into Major and Minor Prophets. Ezra is regarded as a Minor Prophet both in Jewish and the christian scripture.
He is a very, very Minor Prophet. He doesn't rate in the same group as the Great Prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel.
So it is clear the FALSE PROPHET Muhammad read some jewish fables or was told some jewish fairy tales that lead him to make the wrong connection that the Jews call Ezra the son of god
God is ALL knowing and could not had made such a mistake
Sorry your weak attempt at explaining the false prophet errors is very weak indeed
-
Greetings savage_carrot,
I would like to comment on this?
Even the christians don't say jesus is the son of God, they say he is god in some magical mystical way...no need to go any further than the forum...take for example the case of the conjoined twins apple + pie (who mysteriously always talk in the collective)...so for ezra to be divine/god/son of/part of in the same contorted vein is entirely feasible and sure as hell ain't a contradiction...
You are speaking from the vantage point of Islam and not the Koran...as the authors who penned the Arabic text (as we know it today) clearly state that Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus is God
Perhaps you need to brush-up on your scriptures instead of letting Islam control your mind like a puppet?
Thanks?
-
There is NO, NONE and ZERO evidence that Jews do or have EVER said or believed that Ezra is Son of God. Not even SOME Jews....
That is so true, the way to go about this is whenever presented with any evidence, scream bloody propoganda and duck...what? evidence? I didn't see nothin' nope, not a thing, and be sure to add 'All Lies' just to be on the safe side...Do not reply to supposed propaganda, why! you could just be caught in trying to explain the evidence. What will truly make this way successful is when doing the above to the letter, one will simultaneously avoid any blow to their carefully crafted albeit flimsy theories aka contradictions...leaving them free in their own minds to be in denial or to propagate their own propaganda or agenda's or whatever...
The Prophets are divided into Major and Minor Prophets. Ezra is regarded as a Minor Prophet both in Jewish and the christian scripture.
He is a very, very Minor Prophet. He doesn't rate in the same group as the Great Prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel.
Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat...
Ezra is so well thought of in the Talmud that it is written of him that "the Torah could have been given to Israel through Ezra, if not that Moses preceded him" (Sanhedrin 21b).
This revelation closes with Ezra being taken into heaven without dying.
All over the world the Jews look upon Ezra as the greatest man in their history except Moses. They call him the second founder of Israel.
So it is clear the FALSE PROPHET Muhammad read some jewish fables or was told some jewish fairy tales that lead him to make the wrong connection that the Jews call Ezra the son of god
To faithful followers, adding to the guide above, if in doubt, liberally sprinkle CAPITALS in posts, that will surely drive the point home...there shall be no escaping capitals...it is foolproof...
Sorry your weak attempt at explaining the false prophet errors is very weak indeed
I'll just take your words for it...As near as I can tell, you should have stuck to cut and pastes instead...maybe it's time to walk away before the dark forces swallow your soul...just a thought?