As a group how do we present ourselves?
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Peace,
I am starting this thread to just get an idea of what the rest of this forum thinks of the concept of names and labels.
I am talking about 'Islam' and 'Muslim', 'Salat' etc Do others worry that these maybe meaningless names that have been made and are not authorised by the Most High.
I personally think that at the time of the Prophet these words had more significant meanings whereas now, they are lost and are just labels to identify a group.
Anyway has anyone else been thinking about this too?
Nural
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Dear Nural Amin,
I do not like labels on people, but without it I?m afraid we can never express common opinions very effectively.
?Islam? and ?Muslim? has indeed become expressions for anything but ?Islam? and ?Muslim?.
The expressions have become synonymous with ?violence, suppression, stupidity etc.?
This is exact opposite of what the Qur?an is teaching.What label, if any, should we use to fight this, without becoming just another ritualistic religion?
In a few posts I have tried to express my concern about how to effectively act as a group, but so far I have mostly got a lot of suggestions as to why it is impossible to live by the system of God. That it is in fact utopia.
Regards
Ali Omar
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Salaamun alaikum,
In a few posts I have tried to express my concern about how to effectively act as a group, but so far I have mostly got a lot of suggestions as to why it is impossible to live by the system of God. That it is in fact utopia.
Impossible? I would disagree but it would be impossible to prove my point conceptually. The only way would be to actually do it.
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?Islam? and ?Muslim? has indeed become expressions for anything but ?Islam? and ?Muslim?.
The expressions have become synonymous with ?violence, suppression, stupidity etc.?
This is exact opposite of what the Qur?an is teaching.But its all relative right? Your interpretation of that can be different to another's, who will obviously use a different argument to say that their standpoint is correct.
Impossible? I would disagree but it would be impossible to prove my point conceptually. The only way would be to actually do it.
And doing it requires agreement - thats the hard part for any set of disparate belief Mr Q.
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Salaamun alaikum Gentile,
And doing it requires agreement - thats the hard part for any set of disparate belief Mr Q
.Agreement? I disagree
I think it takes only one guy with imaan/conviction like Ibrahim to generate a movement. Only one guy who serves Allah to the exclusion of all else. Everything else will follow suit.
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Dear mquran,
I think it takes only one guy with imaan/conviction like Ibrahim to generate a movement. Only one guy who serves Allah to the exclusion of all else. Everything else will follow suit.
OK, let me see, Bush............, Blair.............., bin Laden............naaah. scared flag
But on a serious note, it still leaves us with the same problem, what do we agree on besides non-hadith? What is necessary to agree on to form a group? What is the goal?
After that, the practical spreading of ?our word?.
A lot of decisions to be made.
What is possible what is not?In short a ?business plan?.
Regards
Ali Omar
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Peace,
But on a serious note, it still leaves us with the same problem, what do we agree on besides non-hadith? What is necessary to agree on to form a group? What is the goal?
Peace, Justice, Equality, Social Welfare, Love of God, Learning, Advancing, etc...
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Salaamun alaikum,
But on a serious note, it still leaves us with the same problem, what do we agree on besides non-hadith? What is necessary to agree on to form a group? What is the goal?
After that, the practical spreading of our word.
A lot of decisions to be made.
What is possible what is not?
In short a business plan.I don't mean to be a pain, but there's nowhere in al-quraan which tells us to form a group. Rather, a person amongst us who takes leadership and calls people to serve Allah. He says things like 'if u love allah, follower me' (3/31). That's how the process begins.
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Agreement? I disagree
I think it takes only one guy with imaan/conviction like Ibrahim to generate a movement. Only one guy who serves Allah to the exclusion of all else. Everything else will follow suit.
True. But the process of becoming a 'movement' requires the agreement with the individual's line of thinking in the first place, in order to become a 'movement'.
I don't mean to be a pain, but there's nowhere in al-quraan which tells us to form a group. Rather, a person amongst us who takes leadership and calls people to serve Allah. He says things like 'if u love allah, follower me' (3/31). That's how the process begins.
True again, but of course al-qoran regularly refers in the plural to the momenyn. However, in order to be effective in practical terms a 'grouping' of some sort is always going to be more effective, whatever the beliefs are.
Peace, Justice, Equality, Social Welfare, Love of God, Learning, Advancing, etc...
Lion-dude, much love bro. However as I said already, this is all relative.
All you have listed can be interpreted in one's own mind as correct.
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Dear all,
Of course the three Bs was a lame joke only, but I find most of our leaders today have some of these three characters. So, how are these individuals becoming leaders? Have we really chosen them? If so, how can we be trusted in choosing one leader to take us to a different way of living?
I would also welcome Peace, Justice, Equality, Social Welfare, Love of God, Learning, Advancing, etc., but my concern is, what exactly is it, and how do we achieve this?
Do we continues to try on our own, each and every one of us, or do we try to find a way to stand together?
Can we take one of the goals above and find a way to start out to achieve it?
How?The approach of ?progod? is probably seriously meant, but the two first sentences are killing each other through contradiction.
?Let none take any god besides God! His message is truly commendable!?
So far, so good, but then it all falls apart in the next sentence
?Laa ilaaha illa allaha wa muhammadarasulallahi?
This is exactly what the first sentence says not to do! It elevates Muhammad to a level besides God!
When I see this, I stop reading because this is pure blasphemy. Or at least, total blindness.
Regards
Ali Omar
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Peace all,
I don't mean to be a pain, but there's nowhere in al-quraan which tells us to form a group
.615 God loves those who fight in His cause as one column; they are like bricks in a wall.
3104 And hold firmly to the rope of God, all of you, and do not be separated. And remember God's blessing upon you when you were enemies and He united your hearts, then you became with His blessing as brothers; and you were on the verge of a pit of fire and He saved you from it; it is thus that God clarifies for you His signs that you may be guided.
3113 They are stricken with humiliation wherever they are found, except through a rope from God and a rope from the people.
314 There was a sign for you in the two groups that met. One was fighting in the cause of God, and the other was rejecting. They thus saw them as twice their number with their eyes. And God supports with His victory whom He wills. In this is a lesson for those with vision.
4143 They are swaying in-between, neither belonging to this group nor to that group. Whoever God will misguide, you will not find for him a way.
23111 There was a group from among My servants who used to Say "Our Lord, we have believed, so forgive us, and have mercy upon us, for You are the best of those who show mercy."
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Group \Group, n.
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A cluster, crowd, or throng; an assemblage, either of
persons or things, collected without any regular form or
arrangement; as, a group of men or of trees; a group of
isles. -
An assemblage of objects in a certain order or relation,
or having SOME resemblance or common characteristic; as,
groups of strata.
"one column, bricks in a wall", "rope", "do not be separated" = group
Please note that a group has to have only SOME resemblance or common characteristics, not 100% agreement or similarity.
If a group of muslims lillah (al-muslimeen) establishes or is struggling to establish The God's laws in an independent area on Earth peacefully, and invites me to join them, I will make sure that all the laws are based on Qur'aan, and there is some kind of system of mutual consultation and debate, and if that is the case, I will join them and support them, even though I might have some difference of understanding of some signs of Qur'aan. That is my outlook on this matter.
My suggestion for the name of the group AL-MUSLIMEEN
2277 And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you 'those who have surrendered' from before as well as in this.
874 Those who have believed and emigrated and strived with their money and lives in the cause of God, and those who sheltered and supported; these are the allies of one another. And those who believed but did not emigrate, you do not owe them any allegiance until they emigrate. But if they seek your help in the system, then you must support them, except if it is against a people with whom there is a treaty between you. God is watcher over what you do.
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Salaamun alaikum Ali Omar,
So far, so good, but then it all falls apart in the next sentence
Laa ilaaha illa allaha wa muhammadarasulallahi
This is exactly what the first sentence says not to do! It elevates Muhammad to a level besides God!
When I see this, I stop reading because this is pure blasphemy. Or at least, total blindness.While I don't see any mandate for saying it or the point for that matter, I would hardly categorise it as blasphemy. It's simply a statement and that statement is , Quranically speaking, true.
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Dear mquran,
Maybe I?m too particular, but I am a bit sensitive concerning idolatry.
?laa ilaaha illa allaha wa muhammadarasulallahi?
These are two statements and they should not be mixed through ?wa?.
First statement ?laa ilaaha illa allaha?
Second statement ?muhammadarasulallahi?Wouldn?t you think it was a bit out-of-place if you say
?Let none take any god besides God! His message is truly commendable!
(there is no god besides God, and mquran is His servant)?What on earth is mquran doing in a statement concerning God? Does this make any difference for people?s trust in God? Does Muhammad make any difference for your trust in God? Does it mean that God can not stand on His own?
?There is no god besides God?. Full stop!
Regards
Ali Omar
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Peace all,
I agree with brother Ali Omar, no where in Qur'aan The God advises us to TESTIFY or PROCLAIM Muhammad's messengership or His message's commendability. He only advises us to BELIEVE in the messenger and SUPPORT and FOLLOW the messenger, and BELIEVE in His message and FOLLOW its guidance.
3357 God and His Angels support the prophet. O you who believe, you shall support him, and yield completely.
514 God has taken the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent from them twelve representatives, and God said "I am with you if you uphold the contact-method, and contribute towards betterment, and believe in My messengers, and support them
7159 .............So believe in God and His Gentile messenger prophet, who believes in God and His words; and follow him that you may be guided.238 We said "Descend from it all of you, so when the guidance comes from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve."
16105 Those who do not believe in God's revelations, God will not guide them, and they will have a painful retribution.
2360 And they believe in the revelations of their Lord.
2948 And similarly, We have sent down to you the Book. Thus, those whom We have given the Scripture will believe in it. Also, some of your people will believe in it. The only ones who mock Our revelations are the rejecters.
456 These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which narration, after God and His revelations, do they believe?I also agree with brother mquran; Muhammad as messenger of The God is mentioned as a fact in Qur'aan and not as a proclamation for the believers
4830 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves.
Only Muhammad himself can proclaim his messengership
7159 Say "O people, I am God's messenger to you all.
As far as The God's unity is concerned
319 God bears witness that there is no god but He, as do the Angels, and those with knowledge, He is standing with justice. There is no god but Him, the Noble, the Wise.
2126 And We did not send any messenger before you except that We inspired him that "There is no god but Me, so serve Me."There is no god but Allah.
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Agreed. There is no proclamation like unto the sunni shahada in al-quraan. All I'm saying is, lets be careful about calling the sunni shahada idolatary. If we call it unquranic, thats more suitable.
Allah calls 'shirik' what he wishes to and this isn't shirik.
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Salaamun alaikum Anwar,
Look at 18/26 Say "Allah knows best how long they stayed with Him is (the knowledge of) the secrets of the heavens and the earth how clearly He sees, how finely He hears (everything)! They have no protector other than Him; nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever(laa YUSHRIKU fi hukmihi ahada)
The word shirik is used there. Now see this
2/22 Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (here the word andaadan is used).
hope that helps
