As a group how do we present ourselves?
-
Peace be upon you,
Yes, simple words have been Capatalized into Titles.
What is needed is to purify the mind/spirit from negative conditionings and program our selves with the positive sonditionings, so that we speak and act righteously as a REFLEX. THEN we AUTOMATICALLY will be a "group". But it starts with Patience and "salaat" which is how we get the God's help, then we DEBATE D
-
Mquran,
What I have there is a new, more koranic, translation of the shahaada. When I say "Let there be no god but God and his message is truly commendable" That is an ALTERNATIVE TRANSLATION of Laa ilaaha illa allaha wa muhammadarrasoolallaahi.
I thought it would be clear that I was translating the shahada in a different way. I apologize for the confusion but I thought that it was obvious that below the shahaada was an untraditional but valid translation of that same Shahaadah, a translation that is valid for those who follow the Koran and is more in line with the Koran.
Take into account that. "Wa muhammadarrasoolallahi" can mean 'And truly commendable (wa muhammada) is God's message (rasoolallahi).''
But it is also a ashame that despite all of the comments that I have made on this site that you say that you stop reading beyond that point, once you see the shahaada. That is a prejudice that you should get rid of, especially since it blinds you to what is really being said, and especially since you made the traditional interpretation on your own and automatically became blind to the other interpretation, the one that is staring right at you on the page.
Godbless,
ProGod -
Peace mquran,
Salaamun alaikum Anwar,
Look at 18/26 Say "Allah knows best how long they stayed with Him is (the knowledge of) the secrets of the heavens and the earth how clearly He sees, how finely He hears (everything)! They have no protector other than Him; nor does He share His Command with any person whatsoever(laa YUSHRIKU fi hukmihi ahada)The word shirik is used there. Now see this
2/22 Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (here the word andaadan is used).
hope that helps
According to 18/26, "...laa YUSHRIKU fi hukmihi ahada...". Certainly God does not share his command with whatsoever, but look at 6151 as in "...alla tushrikoo bihi shay-an..."? What do you think? What shouldn't the human beings do? They can't possibly share His command as per 1826. So what's your take on this?
Regards,
Anwar Azim
6151 "Qul taAAalaw atlu ma harrama rabbukum AAalaykum alla tushrikoo bihi shay-an wabialwalidayni ihsanan wala taqtuloo awladakum min imlaqin nahnu narzuqukum wa-iyyahum wala taqraboo alfawahisha ma thahara minha wama batana wala taqtuloo alnnafsa allatee harrama Allahu illa bialhaqqi thalikum wassakum bihi laAAallakum taAAqiloona -
Salaamun alaikum brother Anwar,
Nowhere in Qur'aan The God advises us to TESTIFY or PROCLAIM Muhammad's messengership OR His message's commendability. I do not know where you got your "shahada" from; the second part of your "shahada" is not sanctioned by The God however you translate it. The only "shahada" sanctioned by The God is as follows
319 God bears witness that there is no god but He, as do the Angels, and those with knowledge, He is standing with justice. There is no god but Him, the Noble, the Wise.
As the sign clearly states, even this "shahada" is ONLY for "those with knowledge" from among the humans. I do not know why you are including a "shahada" on your website homepage, the proclamation of the second part of which is not sanctioned or required from the believers by The God. That is a major deterrent to people visiting your website, and that is not due to anyone's personal bias but because it is NON PROGOD hence an apparent oxymoron.
It would be better if you reduce the wording of the proclamation to only "laa ilaaha illa allaha", then it would be PROGOD, as it would be based on Qur'aan.
Following is what the messengers were sent to teach us
2126 And We did not send any messenger before you except that We inspired him that "There is no god but Me, so serve Me."
Therefore, "laa ilaaha illa allaha" FULL STOP.
Regards,
Tanveer
-
Peace everyone,
Looks like this thread has kind of gone off on a tangent.
My thoughts on this are basically related to what Layth mentioned earlier, we are united because each of us believes in justice, equality etc I think these should be the key goals and anyone that believes in these is welcome to contribute towards achieving these goals.
That means that even if a person is a christian, jew or hindhu, the important thing is that anyone is welcome regardless of race and creed, like on this forum, I personally think that when messengers came to communities and in the cases when there were wars, I think that there were alliances between those that kept peace treaties and believed in peace as a way forward.
The Most High speaks to MANKIND and not only the believers, warning is sent to everyone.
People need to learn to put aside their differences and unite in hard times like these and fight for a better world. In the scripture it says that there shall be no compulsion in religion, this is why I don't think people should be picky and obsessed about what people have faith in, that is an individuals worry and will be dealt by the Almighty.
I don't think God expects the whole world to become perfect saints, but God has sent a message to ALL of mankind throughout history, and this message does not ask us to be saints but rather to fight (or strive, I don't mean we go out and punch people!) for a better world that is free of corruption, to fight for justice, equality, peace etc.
When people lose focus of the more important laws, that is when division occurs. There will be less division amongst people that concentrate on the more important laws like equality and justice.
Just my thoughts at 3am!
Nural
-
Peace,
Well, I never thought that anyone would have a problem with me saying that God's message is commendable. shock I put it there as an eye opener so that people like you as well as traditional Muslims could look at this Shahaadah in a different way, a more Koranic way. There is no official shahaadah according to the Koran as far as shahaadas go anyway. I can witness that God's message is commendable just as I can witness that there is no god but God.
Please continue being a fanatic of the Koran, but just don't let those ideas like "only what is found in the Koran is valid" and "if the Koran doesn't say it or word it exactly as we word it than what we say isn't valid", that is a form of extremism and close-mindedness, inherited from traditionalist (taqleedi) Islam that Koranist don't need to follow. It won't help us in our view of things or in trying to enlighten the world either.
Godbless,
ProGod -
Peace,
The problem with testifying that "Muhammad is God's messenger" only in an official testimony is that we are singling out one of God's messengers (God bless him) over all of the others. That is wrong according the the Koran because it says that we as His loyalists do not single out one prophet or messenger over any other (laa nufarriqu ahadan min ahadin). But I hope you can't find any fault with saying that God's message is commendable. Unless you are hung up on a traditional testimony.
Godbless,
ProGod -
Peace Anwar,
It seems that you have translated "muhammad" as "commendable". But take a look at 3144 and 3340.
3144 Wama muhammadun illa rasoolun qad khalat min qablihi alrrusulu afa-in mata aw qutila inqalabtum AAala aAAqabikum waman yanqalib AAala AAaqibayhi falan yadurra Allaha shay-an wasayajzee Allahu alshshakireena
3340 Ma kana muhammadun aba ahadin min rijalikum walakin rasoola Allahi wakhatama alnnabiyyeena wakana Allahu bikulli shay-in AAaleeman
How does "commendable" die or be killed? Then again how does "commendable" tally with "aba ahadin min rijalikum"?
Anwar Azim
-
Hi all,
?As a group, how do we present ourselves??
Justice, Equality, Peace.......... does it mean the same to you as it means to me?
Are we really able to explain, and accept, the implication of these three expressions?
To me, Justice means that every human being has the right to be fairly treated in whatever situation he/she is, and the duty to ascertain this for everybody else.
To me, Equality means that every human being has the right to be equally treated in all situations in life, and the duty to actively ascertain this for everybody else.
To me, Peace means that every human being has the right to live without any fear of harm or hurt, and the duty to actively ascertain this for everybody else.
I believe we can all accept the rights for ourselves, as we base these on our own needs, even though they may vary, but do we know, and accept, the duties? Duties can not be based on our own needs, but on somebody else?s.
?As a group, how do we present ourselves??
Regards
Ali Omar
-
Salaamun alaikum,
Anwar Please continue being a fanatic of the Koran, but just don't let those ideas like "only what is found in the Koran is valid" and "if the Koran doesn't say it or word it exactly as we word it than what we say isn't valid", that is a form of extremism and close-mindedness, inherited from traditionalist (taqleedi) Islam that Koranist don't need to follow. It won't help us in our view of things or in trying to enlighten the world either.
Ok, but I think the same should be said for giving the same priorities to dictionaries as well and to be perfectly frank, I think you're guilty of this.
-
It is a shame you say that Mquran. I have been accused of following dictionaries as if they we divine for a long time now. It seems to bring back flash-backs of Sunni belief in the Hadeeth. Why, I don't know. Maybe because Sunnis worked on these dictonaries. But the only thing i use dictionaries for is to understand the language that the Koran is in. Just as Muhammad(God bless him) used the knowledge that his parents, friends and community gagve him about his language to read and interpret the Koran, I use the dictionaries to access that same language to understand all that the Koran can be saying since it was written in that language.
I don't know why that would be likened to following close-minded, tranditonalist Islamic ideas. Most people get so confused because they don't know what dictionaries to read and when they do get a hold of a good dictionary they become disallusioned with the whole dictionary because they see an Islamic definition in the dictionary.
What I have been saying for SOO SOO long is that the Classical Arabic of Muhammad's time and Islamic Classical Arabic are the same thing excepet that the Classical Arabic of Muhammad's time did not have Islamic meanings.
Secondly, the way to distinguish Islamic meanings that came about after the koran and those meanings that were around during Muhammad's time is to track the meaning. Islamic meanings of words are usually referenced to the proponderings of an Islamic scholar or a phenomeon that happed after the Koran. When these aspects of a meaning can be recognized they should not be read into the Koran. When they can't, they have to be read into the Koran because there is no evidence to say that the meaning didn't exist during Muhammad's time.
I think my priorities are right, you have to know the language before you can read the text. Unfortunately people seem to think that the Koran has license and the ability to explain its own words and it doesnt, it only has license (as any book does) to explain its ideas.
Godbless,
ProGod -
Salaamun alaikum Anwar,
Believe me, no malice is intended by my remark. I agree with you that 'islamic meanings' (like tasbeeh = reciting subhanallah) can potentially distort our understanding but I do think that you give unqualified power to the dictionaries with 'non-islamic' meanings.
Lets take the meaning as-safaa and al-marwaah. Your interpretation of both doesn't make sense. How does each figure into the overall philosophy of al-quraan? I think sometimes the dictionaries don't have the answers we seek, Anwar. I think sometimes you need to question the rules of the language and the diction because neither of which was protected by Allah.
I hope you take my comment in that way. We are , after all, walking the same path and so exchanging notes, that's how I see it.
shukran wa salaam.
-
Peace ProGod,
Well, I never thought that anyone would have a problem with me saying that God's message is commendable.
I do not have any problem with you saying in general that The God's message is commendable. I have a problem making it part of the "shahada" or fundamental proclamation in islam lillah.
I put it there as an eye opener so that people like you as well as traditional Muslims could look at this Shahaadah in a different way, a more Koranic way.
How is it Qur'aanic ?
There is no official shahaadah according to the Koran as far as shahaadas go anyway. I can witness that God's message is commendable just as I can witness that there is no god but God.
Please continue being a fanatic of the Koran, but just don't let those ideas like "only what is found in the Koran is valid" and "if the Koran doesn't say it or word it exactly as we word it than what we say isn't valid", that is a form of extremism and close-mindedness, inherited from traditionalist (taqleedi) Islam that Koranist don't need to follow. It won't help us in our view of things or in trying to enlighten the world either.
How is following Qur'aan for our guidance being close minded ? How can you be proGod without following His words ? Or do you have some other words outside Qur'aan that you follow ?
Nowhere in Qur'aan The God advises us to TESTIFY or PROCLAIM Muhammad's messengership OR His message's commendability. All He advises us is to ACCEPT it, BELIEVE in it, FOLLOW it, and OBEY it. The God made The Qur'aan fully detailed and does not neglect anything relative to guidance to the straight path to attain salvation on the Last Day. Inventing a "shahada" of your own or a proclamation of your own as part of islam lillah that has no basis in Qur'aan is an innovation that has no place in islam lillah and cannot be proGod. Please produce an ayat from Qur'aan that asks us to PROCLAIM or TESTIFY the commendability of The God's message, if you are truthful.
There is nothing wrong in saying in general that God's message is commendable but it is wrong making it part of the fundamental proclamation or testification in islam lillah. The only fact The God allows THOSE WITH KNOWLEDGE to TESTIFY is "laa ilaaha illa Allaha". Why do you keep insisting on upholding a proclamation that is an innovation and not part of the Qur'aanic shahada or proclamations ? You should refrain from such tactics especially on a website that is intended to present God's message to people.
378 And from amongst them is a group that twist their tongues with the Scripture so that you may think it is from the Scripture, while it is not from the Scripture, and they say it is from God while it is not from God, and they say about God lies while they know.
-
-
Peace mquran,
223 And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.
Where in this ayat The God asks us to TESTIFY or PROCLAIM commendability of The God's message ? All it says is for the people who doubt The God's message to bring a chapter like it.
Where in Qur'aan it says Say "The God's message is commendable" ? or Say "I bear witness that The God's message is commendable" ?
-
Where in this ayat The God asks us to TESTIFY or PROCLAIM commendability of The God's message ? All it challenges is for the people who doubt The God's message to bring a chapter like it.
Where in Qur'aan it says Say "The God's message is commendable" ? or Say "I bear witness that The God's message is commendable" ?
Definitely nowhere in those words. I would however say that the incomparability of al-quraan is highlighted ever so often in itself. See 17/88, for example. Al-quraan is a book which continues to challenge all other ideas around it and this , by the process itself, would highlight its commendability (though i wouldnt say 'commendability' is 'muhammad'.
-
I am not saying that The God's message is not commendable, all I am saying is that nowhere The God requires us to TESTIFY its commendability or PROCLAIM its commendability as part of a fundamental proclamation or "shahada". The God, however, does advise us to BELIEVE in it, FOLLOW it, and OBEY it.
Also, "incomparability" is not synonymous to "commendability"
-
I am not saying that The God's message is not commendable, all I am saying is that nowhere The God requires us to TESTIFY its commendability or PROCLAIM its commendability as part of a fundamental proclamation or "shahada". The God, however, does advise us to BELIEVE in it, FOLLOW it, and OBEY it.
Also, "incomparability" is not synonymous to "commendability"
if by commendable, you mean 'muhammad', i would agree.
-
Peace Tanveermd.
Tanveer you said all this
Nowhere in Qur'aan The God advises us to TESTIFY or PROCLAIM Muhammad's messengership OR His message's commendability. All He advises us is to ACCEPT it, BELIEVE in it, FOLLOW it, and OBEY it. The God made The Qur'aan fully detailed and does not neglect anything relative to guidance to the straight path to attain salvation on the Last Day. Inventing a "shahada" of your own or a proclamation of your own as part of islam lillah that has no basis in Qur'aan is an innovation that has no place in islam lillah and cannot be proGod. Please produce an ayat from Qur'aan that asks us to PROCLAIM or TESTIFY the commendability of The God's message, if you are truthful.
There is nothing wrong in saying in general that God's message is commendable but it is wrong making it part of the fundamental proclamation or testification in islam lillah. The only fact The God allows THOSE WITH KNOWLEDGE to TESTIFY is "laa ilaaha illa Allaha". Why do you keep insisting on upholding a proclamation that is an innovation and not part of the Qur'aanic shahada or proclamations ? You should refrain from such tactics especially on a website that is intended to present God's message to people.
I had solved your troubles in the very place that you quote me on. Let me repeat it for you
There is no official shahaadah according to the Koran as far as shahaadas go anyway. I can witness that God's message is commendable just as I can witness that there is no god but God
.So what are you so offended about.
As for those who have issues with my ideas on dictionaries
Right now free-minds is a battle of ideas about the Koran and about divine inspiration and valid sources to interpret divine inspiration. Unfortuntately the root of the misunderstanding of all this is
-
People do not understand that the authors of lexicons and dictionaries of the Cl. Arabic language are not in competiton with the Koran's true message. They are not the hadeeth. Theya re the means by which we understand the language that the Koran is in.
-
There is much confusion about how to distinguish the Arabic that the Koran uses which some mistakenly call 'Koranic Arabic' as if the Koran uses a dialect of its own invention from other Arabics and what these Arabics are. Furthermore no one (except for me of course) seems to have been able to concieve a theory of how to distinguish all of the different types of Arabics from the Classical Arabic of the Koran. I have done this but people only see me half way. They have not seen that all the while I have been saying that Classical Arabic lexicons will contain Arabic meanings of words that are not from the Koranic era. But as soon as the confused see this very phenomena they say OH you can 't trust the lexicons they are biased all together.
The fact that their only alternative is to start guessing at the meanings of words from context is bad enough. But all they have to do is listen to what I have been sayin all along. If a definition fo some Arabic word is not from the Pre-Islamic or Jahileeya era (which includes the Koranic era) then evidence for the post-koranic origin of the word can be seen, if not in one dictionary then in a more extensive one.
But all too often a person looks in ONE reputable dictionary doesn't see that evidence, despite the fact that their hunches may be right and rejects all Cl. Arabic dictionaries and lexicons as forgeries and falsehoods, despite the fact that they trust them on every other single word except for the words they are looking up. The fact that they are mainly reading translations (which use dictionaries) or working off of definitons of words that they were taught long ago (also indirectly by way of dictionaries) eludes them. They essential start arguing a point that if they truly followed would leave the Koran looking like a bunch of scribble scrabble1, and the language it uses sounding like a bunch of jibber-jabber and mumbo jumbo, because none of its words would have meaning.Godbless,
ProGod -
-
Peace,
Lets take the meaning as-safaa and al-marwaah. Your interpretation of both doesn't make sense. How does each figure into the overall philosophy of al-quraan? I think sometimes the dictionaries don't have the answers we seek, Anwar. I think sometimes you need to question the rules of the language and the diction because neither of which was protected by Allah.
It figures into the overall philosophy in the fact that whereas some may find it offensive that a place of worship be built out of a certain type of stone or with pebbles because of a stigma that that stone or pebble has the Koran says that it does not matter. Read my translation.
The dictionaries have to have it or else we are left to inventing things and that is just not the way of knowledge. When the dictionaries don't have it exactly with that form of the word knowing how to approach the langauge solves the problem. One can look at the root and at the connotation of the form and get a reasonable meaning when the dictionary just doesn't seem to hit it on the nose. This avenue should be used anyway to be able to fully look at what the Koran can be saying anyway.
If the Koran were written in English and the rules of English and diction were not preserved by God what purpose would the Koran serve if we couldn't understand the language that it is in? What sense does that make? WHy does that make more sense to you when the words 'English' above are replaced with the word Arabic? I really don't get that.
Godbless,
ProGod