Is reincarnation possible in reality ?
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"And you were dead, and He brought you back to life. And He shall
cause you to die, and shall bring you back to life,
and in the end shall gather you unto Himself." 228 -
Peace Tanveer,
I don't think you've grasped the concept of reincarnation. This, by no means, is derogatory, but simply an observation based on your following comments
Then the soul evaluates that experience and the mistakes and chooses the same or similar experience again so it can correct the mistakes in that particular form of experience and starts the next life
As I stated earlier, it is not about correcting mistakes or improving. It is about living the entire gamut of the human experience, not reliving the same life and trying to be better at it. Living in America in the middle class as a healthy male adult, I have no idea what it is like to be handicapped in a thrid world nation. I have no idea what it is like to grow up in poverty. I have no idea what it is like to grow up wealthy. I have no idea what it is like to be in a war. The list goes on and on. With each life, the soul develops - not improve. That's the key difference. And part of that development is living with the burdens of that particular life and striving to improve within that particular life, against that set of adversities.
So, you see, it's not that I invented a way to wiggle out of your hopeful explanation, just that I'm explaining to you what reincarnation theory is all about. There's plenty of info available all over the web.
It is what it is, and I neither endorse it nor deny it. The truth will come with patience, Inshallah.
Just to quickly address your comment that "the older soul has more time/cycles than the newer soul, which is UNFAIR."
How do you know that the population will not decrease as the day of judgement nears? Would this not explain away the "logical trap"? Perhaps the day of judgement is 10 million years down the road. Perhaps at that time there will only be a few million people left on Earth, finishing up their final cycles, while the rest of us wait in peace. Is this impossible?
Only God knows for sure.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Kyle,
The PARADIGM that has helped me the most is that this world is a MENTAL CREATION of the God. Lets say you thought of 10 characters in your mind, and wrote a life story for all of them in your mind, and envisioned these lives in your mind. Is there a point when your mind cannot stop creating "new characters"? Even if these characters increased in number in our minds, is there some form of unfairness going on?
But this "PARADIGM" that "this world is a MENTAL CREATION of the God" has a very negative implication that the God is a psychopath, very sick mentally, I should say.
Anwar Azim
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Peace be upon you all,
2399
Until when death overtakes one of them, he says Send me back, my Lord, send me back;23100
Haply I may do good in that which I have left. By no means! it is a (mere) word that he speaks; and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised.The person begging wishes to go back to thier very same life, but its too late, the game is reset at the beginning, when they are "raised". (just another possible look at the verses)
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But this "PARADIGM" that "this world is a MENTAL CREATION of the God" has a very negative implication that the God is a psychopath, very sick mentally, I should say.
Anwar Azim
Peace Bro,
Why the judgement? The only basis you have for that comment are your perceptions...which, as a human, are limited to say the least.
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Peace Tanveemd
Firstly, if reincarnation is true, the population of Earth should DECREASE and not increase with time !! think about it !!
That is logical if you hold that earth is the only plane of experience, those who are on earth now are experiencing life through the 3d.
Those who have progressed/regressed can be said to be on different planes, no?
Secondly, If one says that population is increasing because of NEW souls then it is not fair, because the older souls had more chances and more cycles to achieve perfection; what is the fault of the newer souls for having fewer chances or cycles ?
If you hold that earth is the only layer of experience then that is true , however if there are other planes of experience besides earth then the argument that all souls were created at once is plausible.
Thirdly, if reincarnation is true, then ALL of us should have a perfect memory of our past lives in order to be able to improve and correct our mistakes.
I disagree, I have trouble remebering perfectly an entire day as I'm sure most of us do, that is illogical to say that we must have a perfect memory of an existence before this. How are we benifited to know that we were a king or a peasent? I complete my greatest works of art when I am not weighed down by past expectations.
Also, I don't believe we should call it a past life, as we only have one life; our own. Its just different cloaks.
How can one improve through blind trial and error, without knowledge of one's previous mistakes ? That makes it completely unfair and illogical.
Look at your self right now, you are the sum total of what you were. Everything around you has meaning, it is your choice to read the 'signs.' Our physical is a reflection of our inner, all problems around us have their origins within us.
It is only blind to those who turn from their surroundings. It is only unfair to those who choose to point their finger at anyone but the source, their self.
I agree with this concept, and that demolishes the reincarnation theory also.
That does not demolish the reincarnation theory, it just hampers the notion that you can remeber a past life.
peace.
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Peace Tay, all,
As I stated earlier, it is not about correcting mistakes or improving. It is about living the entire gamut of the human experience, not reliving the same life and trying to be better at it. Living in America in the middle class as a healthy male adult, I have no idea what it is like to be handicapped in a thrid world nation. I have no idea what it is like to grow up in poverty. I have no idea what it is like to grow up wealthy. I have no idea what it is like to be in a war. The list goes on and on. With each life, the soul develops - not improve. That's the key difference. And part of that development is living with the burdens of that particular life and striving to improve within that particular life, against that set of adversities.
So, you see, it's not that I invented a way to wiggle out of your hopeful explanation, just that I'm explaining to you what reincarnation theory is all about. There's plenty of info available all over the web.
It is what it is, and I neither endorse it nor deny it. The truth will come with patience, Inshallah.
The central theme of reincarnation is resolving KARMIC DEBT accumulated in previous lives, by being punished for evil deeds or bad karma from prior lives, or being rewarded for good deeds or good karma from prior lives. It is not just about living the entire gamut of human experiences. So reincarnation is primarily about learning from your previous deeds and improving by correcting your mistakes in past lives.
How do you know that the population will not decrease as the day of judgement nears? Would this not explain away the "logical trap"? Perhaps the day of judgement is 10 million years down the road. Perhaps at that time there will only be a few million people left on Earth, finishing up their final cycles, while the rest of us wait in peace. Is this impossible?
The fact is that the population is increasing, which implies NEW souls. Where did those new souls come from. The sum total of energy remains constant, and does not increase or decrease. Therefore the sum total number of souls is also constant and cannot increase or decrease. Creation of new souls contradicts that.
The second possibility is that the total number of souls is constant and fixed from the beginning, and some souls are being introduced into the reincarnation cycle at a point later than other souls, then that is UNFAIR. The souls starting their reincarnation journey earlier than other souls have MORE TOTAL TIME/CYCLES for progress or improvement or experience which is an UNFAIR advantage. What is the fault of the souls starting their journey later?
Regards,
Tanveer
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Peace Khalil,
That is logical if you hold that earth is the only plane of experience, those who are on earth now are experiencing life through the 3d.
Those who have progressed/regressed can be said to be on different planes, no?
If those who have progressed/regressed are on different planes then still the population on this plane of existence should DECREASE, however we find it is increasing.
If you hold that earth is the only layer of experience then that is true , however if there are other planes of experience besides earth then the argument that all souls were created at once is plausible.
The sum total number of souls has to be constant as energy is neither created nor destroyed. The theory of reincarnation is about multiple existences in a linear fashion in the SAME PLANE OF EXISTENCE. Hence as souls achieve perfection or nirvana and get out of the reincarnation cycle, the total population in this plane of existence should DECREASE.
I disagree, I have trouble remebering perfectly an entire day as I'm sure most of us do, that is illogical to say that we must have a perfect memory of an existence before this. How are we benifited to know that we were a king or a peasent? I complete my greatest works of art when I am not weighed down by past expectations.
Ok, the memory does not have to be perfect, but there HAS TO BE THE MEMORY OF THE IMPORTANT EVIL OR GOOD DEEDS CONTRIBUTING TO THE KARMIC DEBT FROM THE PRIOR LIVES FOR ALL SOULS. However that is not the case.
Look at your self right now, you are the sum total of what you were. Everything around you has meaning, it is your choice to read the 'signs.' Our physical is a reflection of our inner, all problems around us have their origins within us.
The signs around me do not and CANNOT tell what evil deed I committed in my past life for which I am suffering. For that, one needs the memory of that evil deed. The signs around me can only tell that some evil deed must have been committed in past, but they do not tell WHAT that evil deed was, including its nature and magnitude. Exact knowledege of the nature and magnitude of the evil deed in previous life is NECESSARY to resolve its karmic debt by countering it with a good deed of the SAME NATURE AND MAGNITUDE.
Also, I don't believe we should call it a past life, as we only have one life; our own. Its just different cloaks.
This comments raises another interesting question in my mind. If the soul is one, and bodies are different in each existence then still it is not fair for a body in this life, which is completely genetically, metabolically, and physiologically different from the body in the previous life, to be responsible for the evil deeds committed by a different body in the previous life. If reincarnation is true, then the body in this life HAS TO BE PERFECTLY IDENTICAL to the body in the previous life, for karmic debt to be fair.
Regards,
Tanveer
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Peace all,
Following is an interesting article I ran into on the internet, which raises some new points and objections to the theory of reincarnation that have not been brought forth yet on this forum
Reincarnation and cosmic justice
by Ernest ValeaThe most important argument for reincarnation is of a moral nature. It says that karma and reincarnation provide the perfect way to realize justice in our world, by rewarding all one?s deeds and thoughts in further lives. They will manifest as good or bad happenings and circumstances, with mathematical exactitude, so that everything one does will be justly punished or rewarded, at both a quantitative and a qualitative level. This would explain all inequalities we see among people, comfort those who cannot understand their present bad situation and also give hope for a further better life. According to karma, there is no forgiveness for the "sins" of the past, but only accumulation of karmic debt, followed by paying the consequences in further lives. Swami Shivananda states
If the virtuous man who has not done any evil act in this birth suffers, this is due to some wrong act that he may have committed in his previous birth. He will have his compensation in his next birth. If the wicked man who daily does many evil actions apparently enjoys in this birth, this is due to some good Karma he must have done in his previous birth. he will have compensation in his next birth. He will suffer in the next birth. The law of compensation is inexorable and relentless.
(Swami Shivananda, Practice of Karma Yoga, Divine Life Society, 1985, p. 102)As the karmic debt man recorded in his past is considerably large, a single life is not enough to consume it. Therefore, in order to attain liberation, many lives become a necessity. In pantheism, where a personal god as Ultimate Reality is absent, man is alone in his struggle with his past. Even the theistic branches of Eastern religions are incapable of solving man?s loneliness in this struggle, as karma and God?s grace cannot be properly reconciled without totally compromising one of them. Grace, granted by a god or a guru, contradicts the basic role of karma and would render useless its action. As a result, the claims of some gurus to be able to erase the karma of their disciples are absurd. Through asceticism and meditation, man has to work out his salvation alone, or rather to bear alone the dictates of karma.
Although it may seem that the mechanism of karma and reincarnation is the proper way to realize social justice, there are two main objections which contradict it
- As long as suffering (or the reward for good deeds) can be experienced only at a personal level (physical and psychical), and man ceases to exist as person at physical death, it implies that another person, generated in another physical body, will actually bear the consequences dictated by the karma of the deceased person. The impersonal self (atman or purusha) which reincarnates has nothing to do with suffering; it is a simple observer of the ongoing psycho-mental life. If, at the moment of death, there is no more karmic debt left, the separation of the self from the illusory involvement with the physical and psycho-mental world is permanent, and this represents liberation. If not, the self is forced to enter a new illusory association with personhood until all fruits of past lives are consumed. In order to realize this, a new person is born each time the self enters a new human body. The new person will bear the karma produced by the previous persons inhabited by the same self. This mechanism, of one person accumulating karma and another bearing the consequences, is rather unfair, fundamentally contradicting the idea of realizing perfect justice. This is why natural disasters, plagues and accidents that affect innocent people cannot be explained away as being generated by karma.
For this reason, the saying "a man reaps what he sows" cannot be used as a way of expressing one?s reincarnationist ideas. (Actually this saying is taken from the New Testament, Galatians 6,7, but there it has a different meaning.) According to the reincarnation mechanism one person sows and another one reaps, since no personal characteristics can be preserved from one incarnation of the impersonal self to the next. In Buddhism, where the very idea of a self who transmigrates is rejected, the idea of sowing and reaping is even more absurd. See for instance the following text
If it be that good men and good women, who receive and retain this discourse, are downtrodden, their evil destiny is the inevitable retributive result of sins committed in their past mortal lives. By virtue of their present misfortunes the reacting effects of their past will be thereby worked out, and they will be in a position to attain the Consummation of Incomparable Enlightenment (Diamond Sutra 16).
Who will actually work out the effects of his past? A new distribution of the five aggregates? Or who will actually attain enlightenment? A certain configuration of those impersonal five aggregates? How could this process render perfect justice? Perfect justice for whom? For an illusory personhood that disappears at physical death?
- A second objection concerns the actual possibility of attaining liberation from karma and reincarnation. Normally it is supposed that the person who is living out the consequences of his karma should do it in a spirit of resignation and submission. But this ideal is far from reality. Instead of adopting a passive attitude concerning the hardships that have to be endured, man almost always reacts with indignation, and so accumulates a constantly growing karmic debt. Common human experience proves that evil almost always generates evil and therefore a balance between good and evil cannot be reached. As a result, a vicious cycle is generated in which karmic debt is constantly growing. This happens with most people of our planet, as it is said that most of us live in ignorance (avidya). From one generation to the next, the sum of karmic debt is always growing and this situation can never be solved. What kind of a justice is that which starts more problems than it solves?
If it is most likely that one will always accumulate new karma instead of getting rid of it, probably the best solution to attain liberation from reincarnation would be the Jain fasting to death, as stated by Mahavira
If this thought occurs to a monk, "I am sick and not able, at this time, to regularly mortify the flesh," that monk should regularly reduce his food; regularly reducing his food and diminishing his sins, he should take proper care of his body, being immovable like a beam; exerting himself he dissolves his body....
This is the truth speaking truth, free from passion, crossing the samsara, abating irresoluteness, knowing all truth and not being known, leaving this frail body. Overcoming all sorts of pains and troubles through trust in this, he accomplishes this fearful religious death. Even thus he will in due time put an end to existence. This has been adopted by many who were free from delusion; it is good, wholesome, proper, beatifying, meritorious. Thus I say.
(Acaranga Sutra 1,7,6)This should be the logical solution for anyone trying to escape his karma. However, this radical solution is far from being accepted by most adherents of reincarnation. But even if they would literally fast to death, it still could not guarantee the decrease of mankind?s karmic debt, as one accumulates more karma till the moment he adopts this kind of "holy" mortification than he could annihilate by using it.
Let?s take an example and see how the two objections actually work in the case of a real person. If we take the case of Adolf Hitler, the results are astounding. (For a detailed study of this case and other important aspects of reincarnation see Mark Albrecht?s book Reincarnation - InterVarsity Press, 1982.) There is no doubt that all adherents of reincarnation agree that many lives are needed for consuming his karmic debt. Hitler died in 1945 and had to reincarnate as a child in order to bear the harsh consequences of his monstrous deeds. The two objections can be stated as following
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The person of Hitler ceased to exist at the moment of his physical death. Only the impersonal self will reincarnate, accompanied by its karmic deposit. However, there is no continuity between the person of Hitler and that of the individual who has to endure the hardships imposed by Hitler?s karma. The newborn person doesn?t know that he has to work out Hitler?s karma. After the cruel life and death of this person, other millions of reincarnations will succeed with the same tragic destiny. The most disgusting fact is that the person of Hitler, the only one who should have endured at physical and psychical level the results of his foolish deeds, was dissolved at his physical death, while other persons, totally unaware of this situation and innocent, have to work out his bad karma.
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As a result of the hardships that have to be endured by the new incarnations of Hitler, it is almost certain that they will react with indignation instead of resignation to their situation, and thus will accumulate a growing karmic debt. Each new reincarnation of Hitler becomes a source of newly acquired karma, initiating a new chain of individuals who have to pay the consequences. The same happened in the case of Hitler himself. Whoever he was in a previous life, he made his karma a lot worse during the years of The Third Reich. Therefore, instead of solving the puzzle of global justice, the problem worsened. Starting with a single individual such as Hitler, we reach a huge number of persons who pay his karma and accumulate a new one. This is just one case of human history. Any attempt to imagine what happens at a larger human scale would reveal a catastrophe impossible to ever be solved.
As a result, karma and reincarnation cannot provide any kind of justice. Reincarnation cannot solve the problem of evil but only amplify it, leaving the original evil unpunished. If reincarnation were true, Hitler will never be punished for his deeds because he ceased to exist, right before any human person or circumstance of life could truly punish him.
Even if disagreement persists in accepting the growth of evil as an effect of karma and reincarnation, at least its conservation should be admitted in human history. This results from analyzing the links that exist between people and their karma from a global perspective. There are two points to be made here.
First, there is a moral issue involved. As suffering is the result of one?s bad deeds performed in previous lives, a possible way of reacting consistently with the law of karma might lead to a total lack of compassion toward people who suffer. One might think that the person who suffers deserves to be equitably punished, and anyone who dares to help him interferes with the unrolling of his karma and consequently is gathering bad karma for himself.
Second, the man who is the instrument of karma?s punishment records bad karma for himself and therefore will have to be punished at his turn, in a next life. Then the next person who acts as the instrument of karma will have to be punished in his turn, etc. A possible solution to this endless cycle would be that the one who acts as the instrument of karma in another one?s life should do it in a completely detached manner, without any interest in the results, according to the demand of Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita (2,47; 3,19; etc.). In this case it is considered that he doesn?t acquire new karma. However, such a solution would be limited, at best, to the few "detached" people that actually follow this rule, and thus has no significance on the larger scale of human society. Most people are far from considering themselves as detached executioners of karma in their neighbor?s life.
Let?s examine these two points in the case of the millions of Jews who were killed in gas chambers by the Nazis during World War II. First, it would seem absurd to have any feeling of compassion towards them, because they deserved to be killed like that, as a result of crimes done by them in previous lives. One could conclude that, after all, the Nazis did the right thing against the Jews, according to the dictates of karma. Using this reasoning any conceivable crime of the past or present could be justified, without bothering about moral values. This opens a horrifying perspective on the past and future of mankind, with implications difficult to grasp.
Second, the killing of millions of Jews requires that their executioners should be killed in their turn, in a similar way, in further lives. But this implies that the executioners of the reincarnated Nazis will be killed in their turn, etc., etc. The cycle would never end. The same reasoning could be used also back in time, which would require finding in each generation those millions of people executed and their executioners. An objection to this could be that killers may be punished (killed) in turn by other means, not necessarily by involving other new acquirers of karma. Natural calamities such as earthquakes could be the instrument of karma. However, this option doesn?t work because karma is generated not only by the actions themselves, but also by the desires that lead to the actions. The desire to kill has to be rewarded as well, not only the killing. Therefore, if reincarnation were a logical concept, it would imply that it has neither a beginning nor an end. This cannot be a solution for justice, but only a kind of eternal circus.
A further analysis of karmic justice proves that the basic principle of Hindu morality, that of non-killing (ahimsa), is absurd. According to this principle we should not participate in the killing of any living being, otherwise we will reincarnate in order to pay the consequences. (This is the basis of eastern religious vegetarianism.) For instance, the butcher who slaughters a pig will have to reincarnate as a pig in order to be slaughtered in his turn. However, the very principle of reincarnation contradicts the meaning of ahimsa and proves it to be futile. The pig had to be slaughtered, because he probably was the reincarnation of another butcher, who had to be punished that way. Neither in this case can the vicious cycle be stopped by natural means (i.e. the pig dying of a disease) because the butcher?s desire to kill the animal (for food or to earn his salary) also generates karma. Therefore the infringement of the non-violence principle becomes a necessity in order to fulfill karmic justice. The butcher was at the same time the instrument of working out one?s karmic debt and the generator of a new one for himself. In a strange and contradictory way, the fulfilling of karmic debt requires the punishment of its executioners. In other words, karma paradoxically acts through condemning the executioners of its "justice".
In conclusion, the concept of reincarnation stands in contradiction with logic, social justice, morality and even common sense. Looking beyond the apparent comfort it provides to this life by promising further lives in which perfection may be attained, belief in reincarnation cannot bring any beneficial result, but only resignation and despair in facing fate. Why then accept it as a major spiritual belief?
The various emphasis by underlining in the above article is mine.
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Peace all,
228 How can you reject God when you were dead and He brought you to life? Then He makes you die, then He brings you to life, then to Him you return.
There was the first creation, then death, then second creation, then death, then final resurrection followed by eternal life. These 3 existences are on separate planes of existence. This is not what the reincarnation theory says. Reincarnation theory implies multiple lives in a linear fashion on the SAME PLANE OF EXISTENCE. Reincarnation theory implies karmic debt which has to be resolved quantitatively and qualitatively, WITHOUT ANT CONCEPT OF FORGIVENESS.
The God clearly indicates many times in Qur'aan that if someone commits a sin or mistake and then repents truly and earnestly soon after, The God forgives. That is totally contrary to the theory of reincarnation, in which the karmic debt has to be paid in the next life, without ANY forgiveness.
Also note the following ayat which confirms the 2 deaths, and subsequently no way out after that
4011 They will Say "Our Lord, You have made us die twice, and You have given us life twice. Now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out of this path?"
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Peace bro Kyle,
Firstly, congrats on your post as mod...we haven't had much discussion for quite some time )
The person begging wishes to go back to thier very same life, but its too late, the game is reset at the beginning, when they are "raised". (just another possible look at the verses)
I don't believe so as the rest of the verses right after are referring to the 'day' as being the day of final judgement. In my view, we have one life on this temporal plane (earth) in which death is permanent...by permanent i mean, thats it...no coming back to the same plane in different guises...That is what is meant by a barrier till the DAY they are raised...the day we all are brought to and submit to God and the judgement. Why are they begging for the same? Could it be that there is just one life and thus the desperate need to make it all as right as they can before the final judgement? I believe so...
Nadia
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Peace tanveermd,
I was going to add another post to address the same, you beat me to it tho'... some excellent points there...
Nadia
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Peace Tanveer,
You stated
The central theme of reincarnation is resolving KARMIC DEBT accumulated in previous lives, by being punished for evil deeds or bad karma from prior lives, or being rewarded for good deeds or good karma from prior lives. It is not just about living the entire gamut of human experiences. So reincarnation is primarily about learning from your previous deeds and improving by correcting your mistakes in past lives.
Forgive me, Tanveer, but this understanding, though microscopic, still does not require a person remembering past lives. This is the point I'm trying to address. The Karmic debt, in Hindu context, is the energy responsible for choosing the next life that the person will have to endure because of the way the person dealt with previous lives.
In other words, to grossly oversimply, let's say John committed murder. In his next life, he may be required to endure the murder of someone close to him. This is the repayment of the Karmic debt. He does not need to remember that he is experiencing this pain because he committed murder in a past life. On the contrary. He needs to feel the complete pain of the loss so that his soul, in the spirtual next phase, can understand with empathy, the true extent of his previous actions. If he had memories of the past life, it would completely taint the process.
Nevertheless, I did not intend to confine the dialogue to the Hindu understanding of reincarnation. Hopefully we can move forward.
The fact is that the population is increasing, which implies NEW souls. Where did those new souls come from. The sum total of energy remains constant, and does not increase or decrease. Therefore the sum total number of souls is also constant and cannot increase or decrease. Creation of new souls contradicts that.
This logic is flawed without further evidence. You would need to demonstrate that there was never a time of population decrease in order to call this energy constant. You would also need to demonstrate that there can never be a time of population decrease in the future. Think about nuclear holocaust, plagues, ice ages, etc.
The second possibility is that the total number of souls is constant and fixed from the beginning, and some souls are being introduced into the reincarnation cycle at a point later than other souls, then that is UNFAIR.
It is only unfair if the new souls did not have a chance to complete the cycle. You did not address the possibility I suggested previously. Here it is again
How do you know that the population will not decrease as the day of judgement nears? Would this not explain away the "logical trap"? Perhaps the day of judgement is 10 million years down the road. Perhaps at that time there will only be a few million people left on Earth, finishing up their final cycles, while the rest of us wait in peace. Is this impossible?
This, of course, is just a hypothetical, but we do not know that it can or cannot happen. This is all I'm trying to say. You argument is not logically bullet-proof. I can't say if it's wrong or right, only that there are other possibilities.
Peace,
Tay -
peace all
While I am still unsure about reincarnation, I do think that our perception of time is an issue in this discussion. Is it as linear as we think it is? Or do our brains take care of putting it in an order that makes sense to us?
The electron I mentioned earlier didn't take one path then another. It took all possible paths at the same time.
When you turn on, say, a slide projector, you see the image on the screen. In the double-slit experiment, the electron hits the screen just as quickly. The card with the slits doesn't slow anything down--any more than putting a piece of cardboard with a hole in it would slow down the light coming from a slide projector.
Feyman's theory works mathematically, using the sum of all possible paths, when predicting the outcome observed. The evidence is there to see, but the understanding of how the electron accomplishes its seemingly impossible feat is not.
Our perception of time is extremely limited. Since we live in four dimensions (holographic theory aside for the moment), we can only perceive three. Therefore, we don't really know whether the past is the past or the future is the past...which means a "past" life may very well take place in 3005 instead of 1005, because I am limited in measuring this from what I perceive as my current position in 2005.
And a note about memory here--in studies done with witnesses of events, only very well trained observers are able to recall what happened with any degree of accuracy. Plus, our minds have filters that protect us. People in shock after witnessing or experiencing something traumatic may take hours or days or even longer to recall what happened.
Even in ordinary circumstances, we toss out what doesn't suit us and keep what is useful in our mental closets. Supposedly, everything is stored somewhere; most of us just can't access our memory file cabinet all that easily.
Maybe what we learn through living, whether one life or multiple lives, is how to free ourselves from the shelter of our own filters...so that we can totally rely on God instead of our flimsy illusions.
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That is totally contrary to the theory of reincarnation, in which the karmic debt has to be paid in the next life, without ANY forgiveness.
Where did you get that theory from... and why are you making this connection with karma and reincarnation.
Karma is the Law of Cause and Effect. The Effect of the Cause can and often does take in this life time. Like if a person is very nasty towards another person, that person who is the cause of the nastiness will feel the effect of nastiness at a latter stage, sometimes even within a few days..
The Effect follows the Cause and the majority of the time the Effect takes place within this life time.. often within a few days, sometimes longer.. and sometimes can carry over to reincarnation..
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Peace Tay, all,
Forgive me, Tanveer, but this understanding, though microscopic, still does not require a person remembering past lives. This is the point I'm trying to address. The Karmic debt, in Hindu context, is the energy responsible for choosing the next life that the person will have to endure because of the way the person dealt with previous lives.
In other words, to grossly oversimply, let's say John committed murder. In his next life, he may be required to endure the murder of someone close to him. This is the repayment of the Karmic debt. He does not need to remember that he is experiencing this pain because he committed murder in a past life. On the contrary. He needs to feel the complete pain of the loss so that his soul, in the spirtual next phase, can understand with empathy, the true extent of his previous actions. If he had memories of the past life, it would completely taint the process.
Nevertheless, I did not intend to confine the dialogue to the Hindu understanding of reincarnation. Hopefully we can move forward.
Where did you get that theory from... and why are you making this connection with karma and reincarnation.
Karma is the Law of Cause and Effect. The Effect of the Cause can and often does take in this life time. Like if a person is very nasty towards another person, that person who is the cause of the nastiness will feel the effect of nastiness at a latter stage, sometimes even within a few days..
The Effect follows the Cause and the majority of the time the Effect takes place within this life time.. often within a few days, sometimes longer.. and sometimes can carry over to reincarnation..
5 billion different humans can have 5 billion different definitions of reincarnation theory ranging from "living the entire gamut of experiences" to "murder of someone being repaid by enduring the murder of someone close to the murderer" to "repayment of karma in same life". PLEASE COME UP WITH A UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTABLE ACCURATE AND CORRECT DEFINITION OF THE REINCARNATION THEORY BEFORE CONTINUING THE DISCUSSION FURTHER. Who cares what the Hindu understanding, or Jewish, or Christian, or "muslim" or "Tay's" or "albion's" or "tanveermd's" understanding is; if reincarnation phenomenon is true, there can be only one absolute definition.
For a logical debate to take place we need to accurately define the topic of the debate which is universally acceptable. IMO according to the mainstream reincarnation theory if someone murders someone else, the only way the karmic debt can be paid off is by the murderer getting murdered himself/herself in the next life. However this definition of reincarnation theory contradicts yours. So in the absence of an accurate and universally acceptable definition of reincarnation theory, any further discussion is futile.
According to my understanding of the reincarnation theory, a karmic debt due to a deed performed in a past life can be repaid only by performance of a deed in the current life, the nature and magnitude of which is EXACTLY similar to the deed in the past life, and for that one needs to have memory of the deed in the past life, including its nature and magnitude.
This logic is flawed without further evidence. You would need to demonstrate that there was never a time of population decrease in order to call this energy constant. You would also need to demonstrate that there can never be a time of population decrease in the future. Think about nuclear holocaust, plagues, ice ages, etc.
I am trying to discuss the explanation for the factual increase in population of Earth in the present, if reincarnation theory is true. Population decrease would not mean decrease in the total number of souls, but the movement of souls out of the reincarnation cycle and out of this earthly existence due to their achievement of nirvana and moving on to another plane of existence, the total number of souls still remaining constant. Population increase can mean creation of new souls (implying creation of new energy) OR introduction of the souls into the reincarnation cycle at different times (implying constant energy). Either way, the soul entering the reincarnation cycle at an earlier time will have MORE TOTAL TIME/CYCLES than the soul entering the cycle at a later time which is UNFAIR. What is the fault of the soul entering the cycle at a later time for having lesser time/cycles in order to achieve nirvana?
It is only unfair if the new souls did not have a chance to complete the cycle. You did not address the possibility I suggested previously.
"OLDER" soul -------------------------------------------------------------------------->Last Day
_____________"NEWER" soul ----------------------------------------------------->Last Day<----------------TOTAL TIME/# OF CYCLES------------------------------------------>Last Day
As you can clearly see in the above diagram, The soul entering reincarnation cycle earlier will have MORE TOTAL OR ABSOLUTE TIME/CYCLES than the soul entering the cycle later. The end point is fixed and is the same for all souls as per the following
4172 ..............then He will gather them all towards Him TOGETHER.
That is not fair for the "newer" soul. Why should the "newer" soul have LESSER ABSOLUTE TIME/CYCLES to achieve nirvana ?
Maybe what we learn through living, whether one life or multiple lives, is how to free ourselves from the shelter of our own filters...so that we can totally rely on God instead of our flimsy illusions.
I agree that the best course of action is to totally rely on The God, and when we do that we find evidence that demolishes the reincarnation theory ( 2399-100, 228, 4011)
Regards,
Tanveer
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Peace Tanveer,
I sincerely hope I'm not frustrating you with this dialogue. This is not my intent.
For a logical debate to take place we need to accurately define the topic of the debate which is universally acceptable.
I agree.
IMO according to the mainstream reincarnation theory if someone murders someone else, the only way the karmic debt can be paid off is by the murderer getting murdered himself/herself in the next life.
That certainly seems valid, but I've never read a description of Karma in such concrete terms.
According to my understanding of the reincarnation theory, a karmic debt due to a deed performed in a past life can be repaid only by performance of a deed in the current life, the nature and magnitude of which is EXACTLY similar to the deed in the past life, and for that one needs to have memory of the deed in the past life, including its nature and magnitude.
This is the first point where we seem to seperate in our understandings. You say one must remember and repair in the current life. I say one remembers in the in-between. I agree to disagree.
Either way, the soul entering the reincarnation cycle at an earlier time will have MORE TOTAL TIME/CYCLES than the soul entering the cycle at a later time which is UNFAIR. What is the fault of the soul entering the cycle at a later time for having lesser time/cycles in order to achieve nirvana?
The soul entering reincarnation cycle earlier will have MORE TOTAL OR ABSOLUTE TIME/CYCLES than the soul entering the cycle later. The end point is fixed and is the same for all souls as per the following
4172 ..............then He will gather them all towards Him TOGETHER.That is not fair for the "newer" soul. Why should the "newer" soul have LESSER ABSOLUTE TIME/CYCLES to achieve nirvana ?
Let me try this this example, oversimplified (please try to ignore the biological impossibilities)
There is only 1 person on Earth Jane
Jane is on her 9th life. Population 1
John is born. Population 2
The day of ressurrection is fixed at the point when John completes his cycle, since John is now the last new soul.
Jane eventually finishes her cycle. John is left. Population1
She waits in peace, in some in-between state, until John finishes his cycle.
John completes his cycle. Population0
The day of judgement, as was set, is upon John and Jane.So the population increased(present), and then decreased(future) as the day of judgement drew near and no new souls were brought into the loop. Jane finished her cycle, and waited for John to finish his cycle. So, even though John was introduced later than Jane, he still had equal opportunity with Jane. There is nothing unfair about this scenario. Do you agree?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
This is the first point where we seem to seperate in our understandings. You say one must remember and repair in the current life. I say one remembers in the in-between. I agree to disagree.
Once again we need an accurate and universally acceptable definition of the reincarnation phenomenon. Your version is that the soul remembers in-between cycles and chooses the next experience. My version is that the next experience is FORCED on the soul as a result of the karmic debt accumulated in the previous life. Which version is true ?
Regardless of which version is true, in order to repay the karmic debt one has to remember while actually living the current life. If one remembers in-between cycles, one may only be able to choose the next experience/situation (which I disagree) but cannot choose all the ACTIONS/DEEDS in the next life in that particular experience/situation. The actions/deeds are the ones that repay the karmic debt. One needs to remember in the current life the deeds done in the previous life, including their nature and magnitude, in order to appropriately repay and neutralize the karmic debt.
So the population increased(present), and then decreased(future) as the day of judgement drew near and no new souls were brought into the loop. Jane finished her cycle, and waited for John to finish his cycle. So, even though John was introduced later than Jane, he still had equal opportunity with Jane. There is nothing unfair about this scenario. Do you agree?
I have the same explanation for the increase and decrease in population in this plane of existence without changing the sum total number of souls. The problem is no one knows how many cycles it will take to repay/resolve the karmic debt. It could take one cycle or a million cycles. In order to be fair, each soul should have EQUAL TOTAL TIME/CYCLES available from the outset.
Let's make some concrete assumptions. Soul "A" is introduced in the reincarnation cycle now. Soul "B" is introduced in the reincarnation cycle 1000 years later. Last Day is fixed at say 10,000 years from now. The soul "B" that is introduced in the reincarnation cycle at a point 1000 years later than the soul "A" has a lesser TOTAL TIME (9,000 years) to be able to repay/resolve the karmic debts, as compared to 10,000 years for soul "A" and that makes it unfair for soul "B".
Both souls have no idea how long it will take to resolve the karmic debt, especially with no memory of past deeds and trying to repay the karmic debt in a blind, trial and error fashion. That makes it unfair for soul "B" to have lesser total time/cycles to resolve the karmic debt.
You are assuming that even though soul "B" has 1000 years less than soul "A", it will still be able to repay/resolve the karmic debt in the lesser time. It may or it may not. What is the fault of soul "B" to start with an unfair disadvantage of having lesser time right from the outset ?
The other objection that you have still not addressed is that even though the soul is the same, why should a BODY "Y" in the current life that is genetically, physiologically, and metabolically DIFFERENT from the BODY "X" in the previous life, be responsible for the actions/deeds of BODY "X". In order for reincarnation theory to be true the body in this life has to be PERFECTLY IDENTICAL in every way to the body in the previous life, only then it will be fair.
A person is combination of soul and body and rooh. The "nafs" is combination of soul and body.
2136 Every nafs will taste death. And We burden you with evil and good as a test, and it is to Us that you will return.
Soul does not die, but the body does. So "nafs" has to include body.
6167 Say "Shall I seek other than God as a Lord when He is the Lord of everything?" And every nafs earns what is for it, and none will bear the burden of another.
Regards,
Tanveer
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But this "PARADIGM" that "this world is a MENTAL CREATION of the God" has a very negative implication that the God is a psychopath, very sick mentally, I should say.
Anwar Azim
Peace Bro,
Why the judgement? The only basis you have for that comment are your perceptions...which, as a human, are limited to say the least.
Peace Sis,
The basis for your comment to my comment is your perception about me making a judgement.
Anyway, think about what is going on in this world. If you think it is the "MENTAL CREATION of the God", then I think you too must be sick. No offense meant. Tell me, why should anyone be responsible for one's actions if one is someone else's mental creation?
Anwar Azim
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Salaamun alaykum.
If I may add my thoughts
I think noone of us would ponder about reincarnation if the western interest in eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism hadn`t brought this idea into western esotericism and spirituality.
Sure, there were European ideas of reincarnation before (like with Pythagoras) but these were also likely introduced from the east.
We are pondering about an interesting philosophy but we wouldn?t ponder much about it if we had just the Qur?an as our only source of knowledge and not these influences of our time.
I am not saying that it is wrong to think about this philosophy to get clues on the real meaning of the Quran. Let?s not forget that the ancient people of South Asia also had their true messengers of God. But one should always think about why one is kept busy with these thoughts. Is it out of a certain trend in society, or out of definit statements in the book od God??Now, the interesting thing is that the current ideas on reincarnation in the west are largely based on misunderstandings and folk religion and not on a true and wholesome knoweledge of the Hindu or Buddhist philosophy.
When you ask the great philosophers of Hinduism and Buddhism many of them will tell you that the concept of reincarnation has to be seen more as symbolic than as physical.
I once had a Buddhist monk explain to me that one needs to understand that the center of the Buddhist struggle is always the current human life and all teachings of Buddhism need to be understood in that frame.
Thus, when the Buddhist scriptures speak of reincarnation as an animal, a rich person, a plant etc. this is about psychological states in this life.
This is also the teaching of the Thai Buddhist philosopher Buddhadasa. Interestingly, Buddhadasa had in Buddhism a similar path to the `Quranis? in Islam, by the way. He went back to the most original scriptures of Buddha and left aside all the innovations of later times.This Buddhist interpretation of a psychological reincarnation is probably pretty identical to the Quranic verses that tell us how God turned some people into swines and dogs, I think.
The traditionalist Hindu author Coomaraswamy also writes in his "The Desacrilization of Hinduism for Western Consumption" (the title already tells a lot!)
What is forgotten is that reincarnation as such is not a Hindu doctrine, but rather a theosophist one and that, if reincarnation were in fact something that could occur, it would be seen from the Hindu point of view as a failure. The purpose of life from the Hindu point of view is not to be reborn and given another chance to indulge one's passions, but rather a liberation from the entire process of becoming. It is true that many Hindus believe in a vague kind of reincarnation. However, there is no mention of reincarnation as such in the Vedas and the criteria for Hindu orthodoxy requires a Vedic source.There is one more aspect that one should think about when pondering about reincarnation from a muslim?s perspective. I pesonally think the Quran is clear that we only have this human life as our trial for eternity. However, the Quran is also clear that our life is not an independent entity. It depends on God as does everything else. Everywhere you turn to you will see the expression of Allah.
So, all lifes and all planes of being of all times in this universe are interconnected. There is no solitary life in this world.
My nafs, I think, was only in this world in this life. However, the Quran also tells us that all human souls were created from one soul. My nafs has a deep connection to the nufus (?) of all the humans before me and we are all based on one nafs.Allah Hafiz,
Leyla