Is Love an Illusion?
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Peace all,
When you are so called in love it is when you walk on clouds and you feel warm in your body and so on and this period lasts not long.After this hot beginning it will turn to real LOVE or just fading away.
"real love" should be respect for each other. The primary act in acheiving a long lasting relationship.
Arranged marriages tend to last longer due to the respect that surrounds them.
And now I know I'm going to come under criticism but I have to say it.
Men only want to sleep around, females are looking for that attachment, that "love". When it comes to the topic of "love" females are clouded by emotions, they are a lot more emotional then males. A male simply wants to spread his seed.
What about people who marry without any intention of having children?
Do I know all???????? wink
Honestly, I see marriage as "ownership", "ownership" for both parties involved.
Marriage is not needed, but once again humans have changed in that they now have to protect their assets. Marriage is a way of saying "stay away", to other potential suitors.
As far as people whitout the intention of having children goes, as I said to Lote Tree humans have been around for thousands and thousands of years, our thoughts and actions have changed.
At the moment the evolution of our minds (morals and ethics) has really screwed humans over. I think we (humans) need to take a step back and understand who we (our core essentials) are. There is a lot of confusion in this world because we no longer understand our roles.
Actually, most pack animals share.
Not the sharing I'm talking about.
Pack animals are generally a sole entity. It is the pack and only the pack. When the pack kills the alpha male/female eats first, then the beta males/females fight for the rest of the food.
That's not sharing.
What's found with vampire bats is that they hunt at night, suck their blood and come back to their nest. If there are bats who haven't been able to find food, then other bats regurgitate and share their blood with that bat. The next time the bat that didn't find food, the first time, is EXPECTED to share with others. If a bat doesn't share the rest of the nest remembers and isolates that particular bat.
This is sharing.
Is there anyone here who disbelieves in love, but hasn't been hurt in the past?
Yep, me.
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"real love" should be respect for each other. The primary act in acheiving a long lasting relationship.
Love is too subjective to be bound by 'shoulds' and 'betters'.
Men only want to sleep around, females are looking for that attachment, that "love". When it comes to the topic of "love" females are clouded by emotions, they are a lot more emotional then males. A male simply wants to spread his seed.
No. When it comes to humans, there's no such thing as a 'simple want'. That is unless you want to discount cultural evolution; and even so, you'll find that humans were monogamous long before 'civilisations' took form.
Honestly, I see marriage as "ownership", "ownership" for both parties involved.
Marriage is not needed, but once again humans have changed in that they now have to protect their assets. Marriage is a way of saying "stay away", to other potential suitors.
Marriage is just another word for monogamy, and plenty of animals are monogamous. Anyway, cultural evolution and conscious thought processing > instincts.
At the moment the evolution of our minds (morals and ethics) has really screwed humans over. I think we (humans) need to take a step back and understand who we (our core essentials) are. There is a lot of confusion in this world because we no longer understand our roles.
Yes. Let's go back to looting and pillaging.
Pack animals are generally a sole entity. It is the pack and only the pack. When the pack kills the alpha male/female eats first, then the beta males/females fight for the rest of the food.
That's not sharing.
Chimpanzees share. In fact, they exhibit a lot of traits once thought were exclusive to humans.
Is there anyone here who disbelieves in love, but hasn't been hurt in the past?
Yep, me.
How can you 'disbelieve' in love when someone says "I am in love"? You can say 'I've never been in love" but you have absolutely no logical ground to label them liars.
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Peace be upon you,
"Love" is an e-motion (an energy in motion). It is the energy that manifests giving without expecting anything in return. The sun is a good example of that idea.
This discussion of "warm and fuzzy" are chemical reactions in your body from emzymes and such that are released from mental stimulation, just like the way a mans reproduction tool becomes erect, etc. Butterflies in your stomach and all these things are just bodily reactions. One should not associate that with the energy that manifests "Love".
"Love" is not the type of energy that you should direxct to one or the other thing, it should be given to all. Again, like the example of the sun. This way, one does not fall into the deception of "falling in love" or "love at first sight", etc. One becomes a more loving person to all creation.
To say "I love this" implies that everything else is NOT loved. The greatest energy is that of ONENESS, and we must direct our Love to the WHOLE (Holy).
Love is the most beutiful state of mind
NO, PEACE is the most beautiful state of mind D
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Peace Esimsek,
You stated
Not the sharing I'm talking about.
Pack animals are generally a sole entity. It is the pack and only the pack. When the pack kills the alpha male/female eats first, then the beta males/females fight for the rest of the food.
That's not sharing.
First, I find it fascinating that the bats ostracize the selfish bastards!
But getting back to pack animals in general, you're right, to a degree. Wolves for instance, fit this mold, but not always. Smaller families of wolves, particularly when it's just a male, female, and pups, act very similar to bats(minus the ostracizing). The male hunts while the female stays with the pups. When the male returns, he regurgitates the food for the female to eat so that the pups can have their precious milk. When they're older, he regurgitates the food for them to eat directly. That's sharing.
Honestly, I see marriage as "ownership", "ownership" for both parties involved.
Interesting, although I highly doubt you'd find many happily married people who would agree with you. They'd say they're in love.
Marriage is not needed, but once again humans have changed in that they now have to protect their assets. Marriage is a way of saying "stay away", to other potential suitors.
I see...so this is an evolution of the neanderthal method of clubbing potential suitors to death? I think there's a little more to it than that.
As far as people whitout the intention of having children goes, as I said to Lote Tree humans have been around for thousands and thousands of years, our thoughts and actions have changed.
I agree with you here, but that does not explain people marrying with no intention of reproducing.
At the moment the evolution of our minds (morals and ethics) has really screwed humans over.
I echo Neo's comments
I think we (humans) need to take a step back and understand who we (our core essentials) are.
Apes?
There is a lot of confusion in this world because we no longer understand our roles.
Agreed. But going back to animal instinct is a bit of a stretch wouldn't you say? Perhaps compassion is one of those attributes that sets us apart from the animal kingdom. Perhaps compassion is a manifestation of love. And perhaps love is something that you've yet to experience, atleast in a romantic sense.
I've been down the path of "making girls fall in love", as you mentioned in a different post. What I learned, in retrospect, was not that I made them fall in love with me, but that I learned how to represent the ideal of what each girl expressed she desired in a person. I molded myself to fit each fantasy. This is not love. It's completely superficial and very temporary. It lacks substance.
Real love cannot be conjured, I'm afraid. It takes a willingness to completely open onesself up to another person, and to learn that it's ok to be completely open, atleast with that one person. And this can only be accomplished when one is completely open and forgiving of onesself.
Overall, it seems you have a very mechanical view of the world. Do you love anyone? Friends? Family? Pets? Are all your relationships strictly those that provide some sort of tangible advantage over not having those relationships, ie, security, nourshment, shelter, etc?
Peace,
Tay -
Hello esimsek100 -)
LoteTree what I'm sensing is that you don't want to let go, that you want to believe that love is real. My friend it aint.
I am not interested in "letting go". I am interested in understanding it.
And I don't just "believe" in Love, I experience Love but I continually struggle to understand the meaning of Love.Love has everything to do with reproduction, every aspect of the human has to do with reproduction. Reproduction is our (humans) PRIMARY GOAL on this planet.
In no way does Love go "beyond" this, love is a SMALL part of it.Only a small part? People have given up their thrones, their kingdom and empires and even their very lives for Love and that is just only for Love of a another individual! So can you not see how powerful Love is? Is it still small part?
Poets, musicians, Artists have been inspired and transformed by Love (or lack of Love) and some have wasted away trying to understand what Love is. So is it still small part?
Why does a Healthy Love a cancer patient full knowing that they will die in few months? Where is the survival value in loving the living "dead"?
Ummm see you're mistaken here. You're only looking at one small corner of the picture, you have to take a look at the WHOLE picture.
But it is this "small corner" as you say it, that tells us what we are, as human beings. It is this small corner that give us a glimpse to what Love is.
We (humans) have lived for thousands and thousands of years, without a doubt there has been changes in our actions and thoughts.
No doubt we have evolved. But so has our understanding of Love.
We are once again changing, we are trying to beat cancer (by finding a cure for it), once again we are in a mode of self-preservation. If we do find a cure for cancer, it means a greater population for our "tribe"/family, hence strenght in numbers and better self-preservation.
I think Love is not about self-preservation. Love has no fear of Death.
As I've said before I HAVE manipulated girls into falling in "love" with me and purely by using the supply/demand concepts.
After being able to manipulate girls into "falling in love" with me, I now
understand that love is all an illusion.I am incapable of such manipulations (I am not being moralistic here but that is just me). But you can't make someone Love you like this. It does not work that way. I am sure if you are beautiful then it is easy to manipulate young, naieve and inexperienced girls, who are trying to understand the meaning of love themselves to "fall in" love with you as you say. But this is not love but a sexual power-play between the strong and the weak. Love is anti-thesis of this kind of Power. I would say Love and Power are opposites. But I am sure with experience these girls that you have made to fall in love with you will realise what a ogre of a person you are. And they too will come to understand one day what love means and continually seek its meanings.
Yes at one stage I believed in love and "was in love", but years have passed and do I still "love" that person????
No.
I say stop believing in love but let yourself experience what Love is.
Regards,
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Hello Andya,
If you are able to understand this then you will be able to understand what I am talking about
Please define using more precise terms. I know we hold different standards, you value subjectivity while I, due to the nature of my field, value precision and objectivity. Even if I try to understand that poem it will still be my own understanding, not yours; so I ask you for your understanding, not mine. Your poetry example is too imprecise.
O Andya you make me smile. Define Love in precise terms? I wish I could Andya. But love is not a mathematical formula. Love is not logical. Just like belief in a God is not logical. If I was able to give you a formula for love, I would have patented it myself and traded it on the stock market -)
But love does not work this way.
Love is indeed very subjective experience and it is through the power of poetry, art and music that you can convey at least some of the meaning of that experience. We are not just rational human beings Andya. We have intuitions and imaginations. It is these things that allow us to "see" beyond logic. Greatest breakthroughs and insights in science came about when human beings took an imaginative and intuitive leap into the unknown.
Why does a Healthy Love a cancer patient full knowing that they will die in few months? Where is the survival value in loving the living "dead"?
You concentrate on a particular case. To love (of which I think you mean care and support, not desire in the sexual sense?) a terminally ill person is just an extension of the general tendency to help others, and it is this general tendency that has survival values.
Care and support? There are nurses for that. But love goes beyond this.
If Love was simple as supply and demand then business people would have made a killing with it. But Love goes beyond mere economics.
I thought they already did? Businesses thrive in making people beautiful, supplying ideas about love (movies, music), etc.
That is all to do with Sex Andya. And sex sells -)
That is why brothels are very popular!!!Regards,
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O Andya you make me smile. Define Love in precise terms? I wish I could Andya. But love is not a mathematical formula. Love is not logical. Just like belief in a God is not logical. If I was able to give you a formula for love, I would have patented it myself and traded it on the stock market -)
Not define love in precise terms, give an example case of 'unrequited love' as you understand it. The poem is too vague.
Love is indeed very subjective experience and it is through the power of poetry, art and music that you can convey at least some of the meaning of that experience. We are not just rational human beings Andya. We have intuitions and imaginations. It is these things that allow us to "see" beyond logic. Greatest breakthroughs and insights in science came about when human beings took an imaginative and intuitive leap into the unknown.
And don't forget that imagination and intuitions are restricted by evidence science. People can make all sorts of crazy theories but they must survive tests of empirical falsification.
Again, I ask for an example. Of course I know you think it's subjective, therefore I ask for your understanding. It would be subjective if I offer my own, which is probably different from yours given said subjectivity.
Why does a Healthy Love a cancer patient full knowing that they will die in few months? Where is the survival value in loving the living "dead"?
You concentrate on a particular case. To love (of which I think you mean care and support, not desire in the sexual sense?) a terminally ill person is just an extension of the general tendency to help others, and it is this general tendency that has survival values.
Care and support? There are nurses for that. But love goes beyond this.
Beyond care and support in what way? And what makes it go beyond the general tendency to help others?
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I think that love is real. The problem is that it is often equated with romance, lust, or maybe just liking someone as much as is convenient for you at that time, or the worst of them all, being "in love.". Love is feeling bonded to someone through your souls. It isn't something that you can decide to do, you either love someone or you don't. You love a person because of who they are, and their spirit. It is the ability to almost see their soul and feel bonded and conforted by what you see. And this kind of love is the same regardless of the subject of your love. It is the same love that you have for your mother, father, siblings, lover, friends, etc. The problem is when people think that "liking" someone a lot means that they love them. That is not love, it is just usually a strong like that is combined with sexual interest or the joy of having fun with that person. A true test of love is 1. Does it go away regardless of the actions of the other person 2. Do you have to compromise yourself for this love? If so, then it is not love. I'd like to add that the Quran says that Allah puts love between spouses as a mercy to mankind.
I also do not think that love between lovers is evolutionarily sound. Men and women can reproduce though lust and stay together through a love for the child.
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Peace,
No. When it comes to humans, there's no such thing as a 'simple want'. That is unless you want to discount cultural evolution; and even so, you'll find that humans were monogamous long before 'civilisations' took form.
Um, would you like to bring forth the evidence that humans were monagamous long before civilisations took form.
I think you'll find that you are mistaken. It is still not known whether humans were mongamous or not, I've heard more favouritism denying monagmous relationships.
Marriage is just another word for monogamy, and plenty of animals are monogamous. Anyway, cultural evolution and conscious thought processing > instincts.
And plenty of animals of polygamous, what's your point?????
As far as you undermining instincts, then can you explain why our gaols are filled with murderers and bank robbers????????
Yes. Let's go back to looting and pillaging.
Whoever said looting and pillaging???
If your mind works at that rate, then sure go for it.
Chimpanzees share. In fact, they exhibit a lot of traits once thought were exclusive to humans.
Actually once again it's the alpha male who decides who gets to eat when.
How can you 'disbelieve' in love when someone says "I am in love"? You can say 'I've never been in love" but you have absolutely no logical ground to label them liars.
Fine you say love exists, prove it.
And neo, please if you're going to be pedantic don't bother replying. Looting and pillaging, please........ roll
Peace idolfree,
Agree with your post and....
This discussion of "warm and fuzzy" are chemical reactions in your body from emzymes and such that are released from mental stimulation, just like the way a mans reproduction tool becomes erect, etc. Butterflies in your stomach and all these things are just bodily reactions. One should not associate that with the energy that manifests "Love".
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!
Evolution of the human once again.
But getting back to pack animals in general, you're right, to a degree. Wolves for instance, fit this mold, but not always. Smaller families of wolves, particularly when it's just a male, female, and pups, act very similar to bats(minus the ostracizing). The male hunts while the female stays with the pups. When the male returns, he regurgitates the food for the female to eat so that the pups can have their precious milk. When they're older, he regurgitates the food for them to eat directly. That's sharing.
Peace Tay,
Yes I agree with you but wasn't I talking about self-preservation, survival of the fittest???????
By the male wolf taking care of his family is he ensuring his genetics survive?
I see...so this is an evolution of the neanderthal method of clubbing potential suitors to death? I think there's a little more to it than that.
But two people who love each other and know they're going to be together forever, why the need for a piece of paper????
Why not live together without that ring???
I agree with you here, but that does not explain people marrying with no intention of reproducing.
http//www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%22stop+human+reproduction%22&meta=
http//www.deathandhell.com/corpus/manifestos/notbreeding.html
See what I mean by humans being confused of their roles????
Apes?
And You've proved my point. We don't know who we are. And no I'm not saying I know, I don't know. We need to be at PEACE with who we are.
Agreed. But going back to animal instinct is a bit of a stretch wouldn't you say? Perhaps compassion is one of those attributes that sets us apart from the animal kingdom. Perhaps compassion is a manifestation of love. And perhaps love is something that you've yet to experience, atleast in a romantic sense.
I'm not saying go back to animal instincts only. But we sure do need to understand ourselves better. With the amount of multi-million corporations screwing the little people over, the amount of murderers, the amount of thieves running rampant in our world, we are having a problem containing our animal instincts.
I've been down the path of "making girls fall in love", as you mentioned in a different post. What I learned, in retrospect, was not that I made them fall in love with me, but that I learned how to represent the ideal of what each girl expressed she desired in a person. I molded myself to fit each fantasy. This is not love. It's completely superficial and very temporary. It lacks substance.
YOU know that, but do the girls?????
Was it love for them?????
Was it real for them???????
Overall, it seems you have a very mechanical view of the world. Do you love anyone? Friends? Family? Pets? Are all your relationships strictly those that provide some sort of tangible advantage over not having those relationships, ie, security, nourshment, shelter, etc?
Of course I'm not a robot, I have emotions and feelings. However, I do realise that I have been created in such a way to be confused. wink
Only a small part? People have given up their thrones, their kingdom and empires and even their very lives for Love and that is just only for Love of a another individual! So can you not see how powerful Love is? Is it still small part?
Poets, musicians, Artists have been inspired and transformed by Love (or lack of Love) and some have wasted away trying to understand what Love is. So is it still small part?
Peace LoteTree,
But see passing on genetics with that particular partner is there once again. The sub-concious has chosen the best vessel to pass down genetics.
But it is this "small corner" as you say it, that tells us what we are, as human beings. It is this small corner that give us a glimpse to what Love is.
Actually what I was getting at is that morals and ethics have evolved thorught the years aswell.
It may have been acceptable to kill anyone who disrespected you but today that is no longer acceptable.
I believe with the advancement of our morals and ethics that stronger bonds have been formed between family members.
I am incapable of such manipulations (I am not being moralistic here but that is just me). But you can't make someone Love you like this. It does not work that way. I am sure if you are beautiful then it is easy to manipulate young, naieve and inexperienced girls, who are trying to understand the meaning of love themselves to "fall in" love with you as you say. But this is not love but a sexual power-play between the strong and the weak. Love is anti-thesis of this kind of Power. I would say Love and Power are opposites. But I am sure with experience these girls that you have made to fall in love with you will realise what a ogre of a person you are. And they too will come to understand one day what love means and continually seek its meanings.
Sorry to dissappoint you but everyone is capable of manipulating the opposite sex. Some very minor examples, make-up, car, clean shaven, etc, etc, etc......
And yes I have "preyed" on the younger ones, but I've also had my fair experience with the older experienced ones. It can be manipulated.
and it is being manipulated by everyone. -
peace to all,
"Love" is just a word....what matters most is the connection.
peace
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Peace Esimsek,
Yes I agree with you but wasn't I talking about self-preservation, survival of the fittest???????
By the male wolf taking care of his family is he ensuring his genetics survive?Of course. I just wanted to let you know that other animals share as well. Nothing of importance, really.
But two people who love each other and know they're going to be together forever, why the need for a piece of paper????
Why not live together without that ring???I agree. The ring and the paper are technicalities; logistics, if you will. That's really not what's being discussed. We're talking about the connection between the two, which you described as mutual ownership. That's where I disagree, although, I do agree that there probably are folks who are married and feel some sort of ownership in the union. I just don't think that describes all the people who say they're in love.
I hope that's clear.
See what I mean by humans being confused of their roles????
Yes. And I'm not saying that people aren't confused. All I'm saying is that someone who says they're in love cannot be lumped into the category of "confused". We're all confused, and people have always been confused. That does not negate the existence of love.
And You've proved my point. We don't know who we are. And no I'm not saying I know, I don't know. We need to be at PEACE with who we are.
If we don't know who we are, how can we be at peace with who we are?
The answer is We are not our minds, we are soul.I'm not saying go back to animal instincts only. But we sure do need to understand ourselves better. With the amount of multi-million corporations screwing the little people over, the amount of murderers, the amount of thieves running rampant in our world, we are having a problem containing our animal instincts.
Esimsek, this has always been the nature of mankind- back to pharoanic times, and before. Things are no different today. They've just evolved a different disguise. We're no longer building pyramids, we're selling real estate and flipping burgers and fixing computers and producing machinery, etc. Different mode, same outcome. But again, this has nothing to do with the existence of love.
YOU know that, but do the girls?????
Was it love for them?????
Was it real for them???????At the time, I'm sure it felt very real. But if each person chooses to let themselves grow and to love themselves, then eventually they'll be able to differentiate between falling in love with the idea of falling in love, and truly making a loving connection with someone - something that is deeper than exterior qualities and achievements.
Of course I'm not a robot, I have emotions and feelings. However, I do realise that I have been created in such a way to be confused.
Join the club wink
What I'm learning, however, is that confusion is usually caused by letting the mind run wild to govern itself, or when the mind acts out of sync with the soul. The soul knows without words. That's why you'll find yourself doing something you know is wrong. Where does that "knowing" come from if not the soul? The mind cannot comprehend love, because love cannot be put into words and ideas- which are the only tools of the mind. Love can only be felt. And it can only be expressed by the one word which symoblizes, yet does not define, the experience lovePeace,
Tay -
Salaam sweet Br Jaxal,
Don't say this is because you can't get those women you longing for.
Love is both pleasure and pain.
Peace Sis Majidah
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SaLaM My Sweet Sweet Lovely Sister
Its the truth. I am not saying this out of my personel experiances. Ive seen this happen. I usually form my opinions by observing other people and resources. There is a hadith somewhere that one of Adam's son killed his brother over a love for a woman. Lollllllllllllllllll
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Salaam Sweet Br Jaxal,
I know people can do crazy things out of love, but I guess it is weak persons who do that.I mean a normal persons have obstacles who prevent him from doing such a crazy thing to kill someone out of jealousy.
Peace
Sis Majidah -
Peace esimsek100,
Arranged marriages tend to last longer due to the respect that surrounds them.
If that, that they last longer, is true, it could be also because in the cultures where arranged marriage is practiced, divorce is frowned upon. Besides "last longer" is not synonymous of success or good relationship.
As I've said before I HAVE manipulated girls into falling in "love" with me and purely by using the supply/demand concepts.
And yes I have "preyed" on the younger ones, but I've also had my fair experience with the older experienced ones.
...bragging a lot?? )))
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Hello Andya,
Not define love in precise terms, give an example case of 'unrequited love' as you understand it. The poem is too vague.
The poem is too vague? The Poem made me cry!
Looking up at the stars, I know quite well
That, for all they care, I can go to hell,Here is the anger.
How should we like it were stars to burn
With a passion for us we could not return?
If equal affection cannot be,
Let the more loving one be me.Trying to understand.
Admirer as I think I am
Of stars that do not give a damn,
I cannot, now I see them, say
I missed one terribly all day.Coming to terms with it.
Were all stars to disappear or die,
I should learn to look at an empty sky
And feel its total dark sublime,
Though this might take me a little time.A glimmer of hope in coming to terms with Love.
So on simplest level Unrequited Love is like loving the stars.
Here is a web definition for your scientific mind.
Unrequited love is love is that is not reciprocated, even though reciprocation is desired .
And don't forget that imagination and intuitions are restricted by evidence science. People can make all sorts of crazy theories but they must survive tests of empirical falsification.
But without that initial imaginitive and intuitve leap those breathroughs may not have come about. Logic is wonderful thing Andya. Using logic you can make a an elephant dance on a pin-head. This is the Greatness of logic but also perhaps it's greatest flaw. Never underestimate the power of imagination and intuition because they allow you to "see" beyond logic.
Love is illogical and therefore will never conform to tests of empirical falsification. Therefore you can't discount love because it fails empirical tests. If you discount love in this way then you must discount God also.
Beyond care and support in what way? And what makes it go beyond the general tendency to help others?
Care and support can be bought with money. And nurses get paid well. Love can't be bought with money Andya. In fact people have given up wealth and power for Love -)
As I have said I am still struggling to understand what Love is. So far I have come to this view that Love is not Sex. For me Love, on the simplest level, (if we just take the love between two individuals for instance), is about an intellectual and spiritual connection with a another individual. I would say Love is a meeting - no, not just meeting, but the coming together and joining of the mind, body and the spirit. And this love is not just about sex. Sex is the need of the body and can be done with anyone if you have little imagination (that?s what the vast majority of the people do on their Friday night?s out). Love is the need of the soul. Love is the need of the spirit.
But on a deeper level, Love is an contemplation (theoria) of the Idea of the Good. And on deeper level still our human Love is just a pointer to the Divine Love. But I have not had any insights into Love on these levels yet. Perhaps we need to exhuast all our rational thinking before we have an insight into the the Divine Love.
So there you have it Andya. I think Love goes beyond any general care and support, love goes beyond any mere survival value of the family unit/pack. In fact Romantic Love seems to cause a lot of disruption, strife and grief in the family unit/pack! -) and also is the cause of many break-ups of the family unit/pack!
Regards,
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Hello esimsek100,
But see passing on genetics with that particular partner is there once again. The sub-concious has chosen the best vessel to pass down genetics.
How will you pass on your genetics when the person you "love" will die of cancer in few months?
I believe with the advancement of our morals and ethics that stronger bonds have been formed between family members.
But Love as a theme have been celebrated as soon as we became recognisably human in our evolutionary past. We seem to also create Art and God's and religon at the same time. So perhaps Love and compassion made us into human?
Sorry to dissappoint you but everyone is capable of manipulating the opposite sex. Some very minor examples, make-up, car, clean shaven, etc, etc, etc......
Sorry to say I have never been interested in cars, make up etc and I have not knowingly manipulated the opposite sex for my own personal gain in terms of romantic liasons. Perhaps thats because I am ugly as sin?
And yes I have "preyed" on the younger ones, but I've also had my fair experience with the older experienced ones. It can be manipulated.
and it is being manipulated by everyone.This is sexual power game. This is nothing to do with Love because Love is not sex. Sex is a bodily gratification. Sex is like a consumer product. You consume it and thats that. And the more you consume it, there more you want it just like any other consumer product. But lets not mix Sex and Love. Lets try to differentiate between the two. Romantic love does indeed have a sexual component but its not the "Be All" or "End All". But I say to you when you have Love Sex is not important. In fact sex can be discarded easily. Love is an intellectual and spiritual connection esimket. Love is the need of the Soul. Love is the need of the spirit.
Regards,
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Peace all,
Peace Tay,
First off, I'm just going to have to say we should agree to disagree. What I'm sensing is that your outlook on life is too spiritual (for me).
You seem to be able to differentiate the mind and soul, I can't because to me the soul doesn't exist as a seperate entity. The mind is the soul (for me).
And whatever doesn't follow rational logic does not make sense to me, actually I refuse to accept it. Everywhere I look I see rational logic in Allah's creations and that's why I cannot accept too much spirituality (emotions).
Peace Elena,
If that, that they last longer, is true, it could be also because in the cultures where arranged marriage is practiced, divorce is frowned upon. Besides "last longer" is not synonymous of success or good relationship.
True, but I meant it in a way where people grow in "love".
...bragging a lot?? )))
Well not really, only confirming that I've got personal experience to back up my argument. But if you consider it bragging, what you doing tonight? wink
Peace LoteTree,
But see passing on genetics with that particular partner is there once again. The sub-concious has chosen the best vessel to pass down genetics.
How will you pass on your genetics when the person you "love" will die of cancer in few months?
My reply was not in relation to someone with cancer.
My reply to someone with cancer was that after thousands of years of evolution we have changed, thus, possibly, resulting in stronger family bonds.
Once again strength in numbers, survival of the fittest.
But Love as a theme have been celebrated as soon as we became recognisably human in our evolutionary past. We seem to also create Art and God's and religon at the same time. So perhaps Love and compassion made us into human?
How can love and compassion make us human????
We are human even without love and compassion. Love and compassion are small parts of humans, definitely not the other way around. Art reflects emotions, not just love in particular. There's even arguments against religion which debunk marriage.
Sorry to say I have never been interested in cars, make up etc and I have not knowingly manipulated the opposite sex for my own personal gain in terms of romantic liasons. Perhaps thats because I am ugly as sin?
Who said you do it knowingly, who says I do it knowingly??? I'm talking about sub-concious, INSTINCTS.
Every single human has the natural instinct to find a mate, that is why the human race is thriving in numbers at this day and age. As far as the concept of some people finding loads of partners and some people not being able to find many partners, it's the case of practice makes perfect. But yet EVERYONE HAS THAT ABILITY.
This is sexual power game. This is nothing to do with Love because Love is not sex. Sex is a bodily gratification. Sex is like a consumer product. You consume it and thats that. And the more you consume it, there more you want it just like any other consumer product. But lets not mix Sex and Love. Lets try to differentiate between the two. Romantic love does indeed have a sexual component but its not the "Be All" or "End All". But I say to you when you have Love Sex is not important. In fact sex can be discarded easily. Love is an intellectual and spiritual connection esimket. Love is the need of the Soul. Love is the need of the spirit.
As I said to Tay, there is no soul, no spirit for me. Excuse my language but for me it's a load of BS.
For me there is only mind, mind over all matter. I do not desire, my mind controls. I have only need, not want. Water, food, clothes, shelter, mating. That's it. My mind has control.
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The poem is too vague? The Poem made me cry!
Well, it doesn't make me cry?
So on simplest level Unrequited Love is like loving the stars.
Here is a web definition for your scientific mind.
Unrequited love is love is that is not reciprocated, even though reciprocation is desired .
OK. I'll take that as your example. Unrequited love is like loving the stars.
Which, if taken at face value, has no survival value.
Although I can still try to stretch the adaptationist explanation You love the stars, which are balls of gas light-years away, because they are beautiful.
Because they are beautiful, they appeal to your innate tendency to love beautiful objects.
Now here is where I think my adaptationist explanation is overstretched The tendency to love beautiful is surely an adaptation, because individuals who love beautiful objects will tend to try to look for beautiful mates, and tend to produce beautiful children which are more desired by others, and therefore have a better chance to reproduce. I say overstretched because I don't know how a fondness for a beautiful mate can be stretched into a general sense of aestheticism. But a lot of animals have this aesthetic tendency for example, males of an Australian bird species builds elaborate nests, trying to attract the females. The nests themselves do not correspond directly to the males' fitness; it's just that the females have an aesthetic tendency.
And don't forget that imagination and intuitions are restricted by evidence science. People can make all sorts of crazy theories but they must survive tests of empirical falsification.
But without that initial imaginitive and intuitve leap those breathroughs may not have come about. Logic is wonderful thing Andya. Using logic you can make a an elephant dance on a pin-head. This is the Greatness of logic but also perhaps it's greatest flaw. Never underestimate the power of imagination and intuition because they allow you to "see" beyond logic.
So you say. I appreciate your view you seem to be (or want to be) in an artistic field so I can understand your defense of imagination and intuition. You remind me of a friend of mine with sufist tendencies who talks of intuition all the time.
Note that I give more weight to empiricism (compatibility with evidence) and not logic. Even logic (or 'common sense') in science sometimes must be tampered by evidence.
Love is illogical and therefore will never conform to tests of empirical falsification. Therefore you can't discount love because it fails empirical tests. If you discount love in this way then you must discount God also.
You misrepresent me. I never said love should be discounted. On the contrary I think love, as an adaptation, is real. Just like our hands are real. I'm not in the 'everything-is-illusion' crowd.
Love doesn't fail empirical tests. People can show their love to whatever in visible ways kissing, giving support, sacrificing their live.
Beyond care and support in what way? And what makes it go beyond the general tendency to help others?
Care and support can be bought with money. And nurses get paid well. Love can't be bought with money Andya. In fact people have given up wealth and power for Love -)
What part of loving a terminally ill person goes beyond care and support then? I didn't get your drift.
As I have said I am still struggling to understand what Love is. So far I have come to this view that Love is not Sex. For me Love, on the simplest level, (if we just take the love between two individuals for instance), is about an intellectual and spiritual connection with a another individual. I would say Love is a meeting - no, not just meeting, but the coming together and joining of the mind, body and the spirit. And this love is not just about sex. Sex is the need of the body and can be done with anyone if you have little imagination (that?s what the vast majority of the people do on their Friday night?s out). Love is the need of the soul. Love is the need of the spirit.
But on a deeper level, Love is an contemplation (theoria) of the Idea of the Good. And on deeper level still our human Love is just a pointer to the Divine Love. But I have not had any insights into Love on these levels yet. Perhaps we need to exhuast all our rational thinking before we have an insight into the the Divine Love.
So there you have it Andya. I think Love goes beyond any general care and support, love goes beyond any mere survival value of the family unit/pack. In fact Romantic Love seems to cause a lot of disruption, strife and grief in the family unit/pack! -) and also is the cause of many break-ups of the family unit/pack!
Well that's your opinion. I still think love is an elaboration of an assortment of adaptations such as aestheticism, lust, tendency to care and support, and sociability. Many people think that scientific explanations tend to devalue things, but I can't see why people would think so. Is it because science take out the mysteries and miracles people crave so much?