MANIFESTO for Islamic Reform
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Noah
Communism failed because the one party rule become corrupted as the sytem did not put strong enough check and controls on their leadership. Communism if implemented with honesty is better system than Capitalism which called "Democracy" in USA.
Peace. no its not. its equally rotten and flawed to begin with. They are not opposites, they are opposames. Its "elite" rule. Power, true influence and access to the lions part of the resources for a very few. I am aware that the writ that Marx copyed and put his name on (or was paid for, i dont know) contains many nice thoughts. but thats how these false ideologies are sold on to us. Both are 99% sweet cookie and 1% arsenik. Problem is that 1% arsenik is enough to kill all.
This is not "gospel truth" but take a look. http//reactor-core.org/none-dare.html
The only type of government i have seen that wasnt rotten to the core was actually the republic of Americas before it became the Brittish owned coorporation called (in capital letters) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. A branch division of UNITED STATES COMPANY ANNO 1862.
But even with a good foundation look what happened. -
No. you put words in people mouths and that pisses them off.
look here
Don't be naieve Noah. Power at the hands of a single person in a DICTATORSHIP is a dangerous thing......
where am i talking about dictators? i will tell you. i aint!
Really Noah? This whole thread has been about democracy and autocratic rule!
Having failed with your argument with THEOCRACY which is also DICTATORSHIP, you now throw in ANARCHISM!
So my words "Power at the hands of a single person is a dangerous thing..." is about AUTOCRATIC RULE and DEMOCRACY. This keeping in line with discussion of the thread.
Your view on theocracy is heavily lacking neuances. thus
Hey Ayman demolished your arguments on THEOCRACY. You didn't need my views at all!
At the age of six I was grappling with concept of "God" ..
you shouldnt have stopped back then.
I haven't that is why I can easily challenge your world view.
If you think that is the case then in a DEMOCRACY you can work to change it. In a DICTATORSHIP you can't - can you not see this Noah?
Is this so hard to grasp?you know what, on paper Communism look real good too. In theory Communism have many merits. Its just...it didnt work, because like democracy it is not made by the people, thats just what were told.
No communism even on paper appealed to Idealist. But they could not see that Cummunism was dictatorship.
I cannot force you to see things for what they, thats your own problem
That is what is DEMOCRACY is about.
(And I have no problem at all. I think you do -)
But I will let you solve your problem since I am not here to solve your problem but rather challenge your world view so that you can say something brilliant that will get everyone thinking again...but so far you have not said anything exciting! (yet)Regards,
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Really Noah? This whole thread has been about democracy and autocratic rule!
and this apply to me how?
Having failed with your argument with THEOCRACY which is also DICTATORSHIP, you now throw in ANARCHISM!
No you never bothered to ask before you went out on a key about dicators. youre theone linking it together like that, not me. Dont put words in my mouth.
So my words "Power at the hands of a single person is a dangerous thing..." is about AUTOCRATIC RULE and DEMOCRACY. This keeping in line with discussion of the thread.
Power in hands of a single man or a single group of men are equally dangerous. They are two distinct beasts, so the danger of them differs.
Hey Ayman demolished your arguments on THEOCRACY. You didn't need my views at all!
Wjere did ayman do so did you think? All i saw was Ayman giving his PERSONAL oppinion, and me mine. So you like his better? thats ok )
I haven't that is why I can easily challenge your world view.
Yo havnt heard my worldview lote tree. you have forced one down my throat several times, in all debates i have had with you. PLease do tell me. what IS my world view that you so easily challenge.
No communism even on paper appealed to Idealist. But they could not see that Cummunism was dictatorship.
That is simply not true. Do your homework lote tree. it turned into a dictatorship, and i will argue it was always the idea of it, but not on paper.. Much like elite rule are now the democractic version of same. Atleast a dictator is in your face with his power. you know your enemy in a dictatorship. rather than in a democracy where the dictators are shady, hidden businness CEO's and special interrest groups, making deals that affect everybody OUTSIDE the democracy. You are intelligent, im sure this concept is not too hard to grasp.
I cannot force you to see things for what they, thats your own problem )
That is what is DEMOCRACY is about.
(And I have no problem at all. I think you do -)
But I will let you solve your problem since I am not here to solve your problem but rather challenge your world view so that you can say something brilliant that will get everyone thinking again...but so far you have not said anything exciting! (yet)What is it about? the removal of resources from the many into the hands of the few, badly dressed up as mob rule. And please enlighten me, what world view is it that you belive to have challenged? If you are so sure of what my world view is Lote tree, put weight behind it for once, and tell me what my world view is!
Its not like you excactly are shining in this debat. Putting words into peoples mouth impress noone.
Regards
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Yo havnt heard my worldview lote tree.
I have its THEOCRACY. You said it yourself and Ayman and I have showed you the absurdity of THEOCRACY.
you have forced one down my throat several times, in all debates i have had with you.
I have done no such thing! I spoke strongly about DEMOCRACY and how it serves humanity best.
No communism even on paper appealed to Idealist. But they could not see that Cummunism was dictatorship.
That is simply not true. Do your homework lote tree. it turned into a dictatorship, and i will argue it was always the idea of it, but not on paper.
Communism is an Idealist dictatorship but they can't see it because of their idealism. That is why communism failed.
Much like elite rule are now the democractic version of same.
Elite? That is nonsense Noah! Mr. Shahid Malik a Bengali from Bangladesh has risen to hights of power in the Government of UK. He came from very humble beginings and now has become a an eloquent voice for the Asian Minorities in the British Political system. And there are many examples like him. In a dictatorship people like him will have no chance to put their talent into good use.
Atleast a dictator is in your face with his power.
I don't want a dictator in my face with his POWER! And any sane, intelligent person with an ounce of self-dignity will find this very demeaning!
you know your enemy in a dictatorship.
And the DICTATOR knows you are HIS enemy. He will kill you to maintain his POWER without batting an eye-lid. And he will continue go on killing people to maintian his grip on POWER. In a DEMOCRACY electorate is NOT the enemy nor is the Electorial Candidates the Enemy.
rather than in a democracy where the dictators are shady, hidden businness CEO's and special interrest groups, making deals that affect everybody OUTSIDE the democracy.
As I said before if you think that is the case then in a DEMOCRACY you can work to change that. If you think special interest groups undermining democracy then work to change that! So Noah, work hard to change it!
What is it about? the removal of resources from the many into the hands of the few, badly dressed up as mob rule.
If you think that is the case then in a DEMOCRACY you can work to change it. That is why it is called GOVERNMENT BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE.
And please enlighten me, what world view is it that you belive to have challenged? If you are so sure of what my world view is Lote tree, put weight behind it for once, and tell me what my world view is!
I challenged your world view of THEOCRACY and have shown you how absurd it is.
Its not like you excactly are shining in this debat. Putting words into peoples mouth impress noone.
It is good to have critics.
It means that what you are saying has some weight!Regards,
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I have its THEOCRACY. You said it yourself and Ayman and I have showed you the absurdity of THEOCRACY.
Ayman and i both agreed to what a theocracy is. I dont know what youre talking about. Its the book s unchangeable guidelines, i have never claimed anything but that. You just talk so much you didnt realise it.
Are there any universel definition of theocracy that i am unaware of, or am i allowed to have my own interpretation of it?
I have done no such thing! I spoke strongly about DEMOCRACY and how it serves humanity best.
where is the evidence?
Communism is an Idealist dictatorship but they can't see it because of their idealism. That is why communism failed.
It failed because it was meant to. All part of "the game of the ages". It has nothing to do with ideology, as it didnt when it started up. thats just what people was told.
Elite? That is nonsense Noah! Mr. Shahid Malik a Bengali from Bangladesh has risen to hights of power in the Government of UK. He came from very humble beginings and now has become a an eloquent voice for the Asian Minorities in the British Political system. And there are many examples like him. In a dictatorship people like him will have no chance to put their talent into good use.
HAHAHAHAHAHA and you belive he has any power? OMG Lote Tree you seriously need to wake up. All he is, is a minority puppet that makes democracy "look good". He can change a little here and there. But the fact about democracy is that it is a train ran amok, where we dont know the real driver, and we are debating about the color of the doorknobs on the toilet door. If you think thats power. thats fine. I think it ridiculous.
Blair is not elite. Bush is the from the lower echelon of the elite. The elite is people who have REAL money. Not that paper, and credit stuff where told to take for face value, and they have more than you can imagine. In numbers it is like this. 5% of the worlds population control 95% of the worlds resources. Of those 5 %, LESS than 1% are true elite. This amounts to ca. 8000 individuals worldwide, who are the de facto power in the world today. They give you democracy, facism, communism, whatever help their agenda of want more.
Or as Rotshild, a lower echelon elite said it ; "Give me the control of a nations money, and i care not who makes the laws"
I will give you a tip. Rotschild+bank of england. Politics control NOTHING. money control ALL!
In a democracy it is the golden rule. He who has the goild makes the rule. And if your comfortable with that. fine. Im not!
I don't want a dictator in my face with his POWER! And any sane, intelligent person with an ounce of self-dignity will find this very demeaning!
Ohh lets twist again. like we did...No seriously lote tree, the example was not me prasing a dictator, but the fact that overt control are more honest than covert control. And you know it was, now behave.
And the DICTATOR knows you are HIS enemy. He will kill you to maintain his POWER without batting an eye-lid. And he will continue go on killing people to maintian his grip on POWER. In a DEMOCRACY electorate is NOT the enemy nor is the Electorial Candidates the Enemy.
Tell that to the people at WACO, The montana freemen, tell that to all the people put in jail for crimes such as smoking a joint, so a PRIVATE jail institution can make more money. Im telling you, just because you dont see it, does not mean its not there )
As I said before if you think that is the case then in a DEMOCRACY you can work to change that. If you think special interest groups undermining democracy then work to change that! So Noah, work hard to change it!
It has been like that since day one. We have had ours for 200 years, and people. THOUSANDs of people have worked incredibly hard, so ahrd some of them died. Yet...its still the same`?! I wonder why that be? A few minor adjustments here and there. And a special interrest group are often not someone who go out in public and say. "Look mates, we want to manipulate your thinking by showing you slated and biased "news", so we can get away with pretty much anything, like going to war on no basis etc. " Then we would like to manipulate you into accepting unfair taxation laws, that on the surface will be sold of as good, but in fact means that we get a hell of a lot richer, and you get to pay for it. thank you.
Get real Lote Tree.
If you think that is the case then in a DEMOCRACY you can work to change it. That is why it is called GOVERNMENT BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE.
the record is broke cracle the record is broke cracle the record is borke* cracle*.
Lote Tree, now im going to try it real simple... if framework skewed, and engine no work, no car drive, yes?
I challenged your world view of THEOCRACY and have shown you how absurd it is.
Oh,,i must have forgot, what was my view on theorcracy again? thats right, you dont know, because i didnt tell you. all you did was go out on a tangent of nonsense about the wonders of a system that is less bad than the one you came from, and dictators. So please tell me, what IS my view on theorcracy? Or could it be that you are judging my view on theorcracy by how YOU look at theorcracy? i think thats the one!
It is good to have critics.
It means that what you are saying has some weight!ofcourse it is. But only if they actually makes sense.
Regards
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Noah that link is very boring did not read it completely. Maybe latter look at it.
What you are saying I said the same things about democracy?
The majority of so called democratic system is duped with 24/7 network propaganda and they really don't have the wisdom and intelligence to elect for once a honest politician. The majority will keep voting for the biggest liar corrupt politcian and the people like me will always be on the losing side.
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Noah that link is very boring did not read it completely. Maybe latter look at it.
Information about the powerstructures ARE boring. what did you expect, a comic book? But if you belive that socialism and/or communism have any real merrits, you must read it.
What you are saying I said the same things about democracy?
yeah ofcourse, because it is so blatantly obvious to anyone, who is not easily duped by shiny things.
The majority of so called democratic system is duped with 24/7 network propaganda and they really don't have the wisdom and intelligence to elect for once a honest politician. The majority will keep voting for the biggest liar corrupt politcian and the people like me will always be on the losing side.
agreed. But not only that...both partys play the same side, they have the same paymasters. Why is it, that when one party enters, it makes a few adjustments and then continue the same politics the last pack of idiots did? and before them the same etc etc etc...because politicians are not the ones deciding on the agenda, they are merely mouthpieces, and most without their knowledge or concent. And the few good men and woman who stand up and try to expose reality as it is, have very short careers. And in the us, they have a tendency to become depressed all of a sudden and hang themself or shoot themself 2 times in the back of the head, and then drag themself out in the trunk of their car, close it at throw a match in the fuel hole ??! Or they disappear and their body turn up in places like 911 tho they had no connection to the place. I mean people must be absolutely braindead if they buy the official "suicide" story on something like that.
what Lote Tree and many others fail to understand is that it is not systems that are the problem. People are. especially extremely rich people, who have been so for ....lets say....EIGHT HUNDRED YEARS!!!
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Noah
The two party system itself is dictatorship. Republicans and Democrats have the same agendas to protect the Corporation and Elites. This simply means protection of capitalism which will benefit only the very rich. These two parties block any other political voice which is different from their vision e.g. Ralph Nader. Ralph Nader may not be able to change the system but there is nothing wrong giving him or someone like him a chance and lets see what can they do for the common poor people but the politicians like Ralph Nader will never get elected because majority of the voters are idiots. This majority will always vote for the biggest liars and most corrupt politicians because of the false image created by media.
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Ayman and i both agreed to what a theocracy is. I dont know what youre talking about. Its the book s unchangeable guidelines, i have never claimed anything but that. You just talk so much you didnt realise it.
Are there any universel definition of theocracy that i am unaware of, or am i allowed to have my own interpretation of it?
Here is the definition
In the strictest sense of the word, theocracy consists of two distinct terms "theo" which means "God" and "cracy" which means "form of government". Hence a true theocracy would be "Rule by God".
And now you want to offer your own interpretation of the above definition? OK then what is it?
I have done no such thing! I spoke strongly about DEMOCRACY and how it serves humanity best.
where is the evidence?
Evidence of what? How democracy serves humanity best? Is that not self-evident in Europe compared to middle east or pakistan or Iran or North Korea?
Communism is an Idealist dictatorship but they can't see it because of their idealism. That is why communism failed.
It failed because it was meant to. All part of "the game of the ages". It has nothing to do with ideology, as it didnt when it started up. thats just what people was told.
Is that best you can come up with. It failed because it was meant to?
It failed because it was DICTATORSHIP.
Elite? That is nonsense Noah! Mr. Shahid Malik a Bengali from Bangladesh has risen to hights of power in the Government of UK. He came from very humble beginings and now has become a an eloquent voice for the Asian Minorities in the British Political system. And there are many examples like him. In a dictatorship people like him will have no chance to put their talent into good use.
HAHAHAHAHAHA and you belive he has any power?
You say only Elite govern. And now that I have shown you how a humble individual from humble beginings, from a Bengali minority, can rise to position of power in a democracy, you now say HE HAS NO POWER?
So what is it Noah? Do elites only govern or humble individuals from humble background can participate in the political process in the Houses of Parliament or the House of Lords- Like Mr. Shahid Malik or Lord Chouwdury or Lord Desai? There are many more people like Shahid Malik who did not sit on their backsides and complained but worked hard to get where they are now. And they are making their voices heard.All he is, is a minority puppet that makes democracy "look good". He can change a little here and there.
Yes, you can say that because you have no idea of working hard to making your voice heard. You just sit on your backside and complain. This is typical adolescent behaivour! Growing up will help Noah.
But the fact about democracy is that it is a train ran amok, where we dont know the real driver...
The real driver is the people but you can't see because you can't connect with people. You rather connect with a book instead.
If you think thats power. thats fine. I think it ridiculous.
No the Ridicolous thing is sitting on your backside and doing nothing. Mr. Shahid Malik, Lord Choudhury and Lord Desai and many others did not sit on the backsides but they did something about it. They worked hard to make their voices heard in the high places of government.
In a democracy it is the golden rule. He who has the goild makes the rule. And if your comfortable with that. fine. Im not!
Mr. Shahid Malik certainly had no Gold and yet he was able to participate in the political process in the Government of UK!
I don't want a dictator in my face with his POWER! And any sane, intelligent person with an ounce of self-dignity will find this very demeaning!
Ohh lets twist again. like we did...No seriously lote tree, the example was not me prasing a dictator, but the fact that overt control are more honest than covert control. And you know it was, now behave.
No seriously! No twisting done! It is you who don't understand the implications of what you say!
Lote Tree, now im going to try it real simple... if framework skewed, and engine no work, no car drive, yes?
Because you can't get off your lazy backside and work to change things then you might as well just moan and complain and let the people that have some determination, courage and imagination like Mr. Shahid Malik and others to take up the challenge and have their voices heard...
Oh,,i must have forgot, what was my view on theorcracy again? thats right, you dont know, because i didnt tell you.
I said what you replace DEMOCRACY with? and you said THEOCRACY.
And I know what theocracy means. Now you offer your interpretation of the definition of theocracy!Regards,
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peace LT
In the strictest sense of the word, theocracy consists of two distinct terms "theo" which means "God" and "cracy" which means "form of government". Hence a true theocracy would be "Rule by God".
And now you want to offer your own interpretation of the above definition? OK then what is it?
That is excactly what it is. Rule by God. And that requires NO state institution whatsoever. It is an individual action and choice. If some people want a state institution to tell them what they can and cant, thats fine, but i want the choice not to be forced to take part in it.
Evidence of what? How democracy serves humanity best? Is that not self-evident in Europe compared to middle east or pakistan or Iran or North Korea?
So because you can mention systems that are worse, democracy becomes good? That we as a race have made the wrong choices since day one, and still do, does not mean what we have currently serve our interrests.
btw. heard this one; You cant buy alcohol in Iran, but you can get stoned
Is that best you can come up with. It failed because it was meant to?
It failed because it was DICTATORSHIP.
No it failed because it was meant to. it failed by design, and all you need to do is go to any good library AND STUDY! where it came from ,where the money came from etc.
You say only Elite govern. And now that I have shown you how a humble individual from humble beginings, from a Bengali minority, can rise to position of power in a democracy, you now say HE HAS NO POWER?
Absolutely ,just like Blair has no real power, just like Bush has no real power. The politcians put into power are just that, put into power by their masters. But perhaps you expect to see him rise to the level of prime minister? as if!
So what is it Noah? Do elites only govern or humble individuals from humble background can participate in the political process in the Houses of Parliament or the House of Lords- Like Mr. Shahid Malik or Lord Chouwdury or Lord Desai?
1.real power, sets the agenda
2.high echelon elite, promotes the agenda
3.prime ministers/presidents, enforce and promote the agenda (knowingly or not)
4.politicians, think they decide the agenda, wich they do as long as what they promote fit into the overall plan.
5.law enforcement, enforce the agenda on the microscale
6.the people, think they have a choice, wich they do. They can put anyone they want into point 4 but thats hardly power to the people.add to this a fully controlled and privately owned press and banking system. yes LT you money isnt yours! they are DEBT notes! Wich you would know if you spend your time studying rather than listen to your own voice.
There are many more people like Shahid Malik who did not sit on their backsides and complained but worked hard to get where they are now. And they are making their voices heard.
voices hehe...yeah, but talking doesnt move the wheelbarrel does it?
Yes, you can say that because you have no idea of working hard to making your voice heard. You just sit on your backside and complain. This is typical adolescent behaivour! Growing up will help Noah.
wow that is a lot of assumption in one single paragraph LT, im impressed, its low even for you.
Let see. now that you feel that you know me, how about me letting you know me?Born into a powerfull family of free masons. Dad is diplomat for the US government (and headhunted for the UN council and the world bank), uncle is the leader of the largest union in Denmark has been since forever, tho they claim its the members that keep choosing him. In a democratic process. Cousin, fastest blazing young politician in Denmark etc..
age 18, start record company
age 20, start production company
age 22 sell both of makes a lot of money
age 22 start E-learning company, get involved with local politics.
age 23 Make a famed - E-learning system for the largest insurance company in Denmark. Is chosen to represent the area in the politcal arena locally.
age 24, is asked to join seraphien masons, but blankly refuse
age 24 loose the contract all of a sudden
age 24 is asked to join seraphien masons as they are sure last time was an err. refuse again
age 24 go bankrupt as the bank withdraw the credit out of blue air, but was clever enough never to stand as responsible owner so the personal loss is minimal.
age 25 realise politics work by a sinister force behind it, that is coorporate and protective of its own interrests. Have several run ins with members who openly admit so. and tell me that if i go public they would just discredit me...same old procedure.
age 25 leave society to make my living like I chose to, by the rules that I accept. The rest is nothing but manipulation.thats lazy to you? Know you kow me Lote Tree, so please stop assuming EVER again! It is offensive.
The real driver is the people but you can't see because you can't connect with people. You rather connect with a book instead.
wow LT, you never get tired of assuming do you? Seriosly, you need to do your homework. Im sorry that your whole world will crack if democracy shows to be equally rotten to every other system man have thought up just because you left the book.
If you are so connected to people you wouldnt need to assume as much as you do, or be as snide.
No the Ridicolous thing is sitting on your backside and doing nothing.
you ASSUME!
Mr. Shahid Malik, Lord Choudhury and Lord Desai and many others did not sit on the backsides but they did something about it. They worked hard to make their voices heard in the high places of government.
And what have they changed? So they had their voices heard, then what? what happened?
Mr. Shahid Malik certainly had no Gold
neither did Hitler or Staling, yet they managed to rise to power and ovrethrow their system. how can that be you think? again, look at where the money comes from.
..and yet he was able to participate in the political process in the Government of UK!
and that has changed what? All that bloodt talking does ont change the REAL problems that we have at all.
No seriously! No twisting done! It is you who don't understand the implications of what you say!
i fully understand what i say and ts implications. and nowhere did i say i support a dictator. so it was infact THE TWIST!
Dances
Because you can't get off your lazy backside
Assumption
and work to change things then you might as well just moan and complain and let the people that have some determination, courage and imagination like Mr. Shahid Malik and others to take up the challenge and have their voices heard...
thats a lot of talking these guys do, im more of an action, kind of guy.
I said what you replace DEMOCRACY with? and you said THEOCRACY.
And I know what theocracy means.apparently you dont
Now you offer your interpretation of the definition of theocracy!
I just did
Regards
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Franklin D. Roosevelt "The whole world is run by criminals, I want to make sure that we are represented by the best that we have"
(when people asked why he had chosen Joe Kennedy to go to england as prepresentative during the war. Kennedy whom everybody knew was a gangster. Gun running, prostitution, i mean ALL the filth)
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Peace
Have you ever wondered why ministers have somone hired refered to in public as a "SPINdoctor". What might a spindoctor do? Make cofee and bake cake at the office? It would be a sad waste as nearly ALL of them are highly educated former press members who knows how to work the press and manipulate it.
This means in effect that the guy you got to elect based on his lies, s not even the guy talking to you! We all know that is how they get in. say one thing, and then just do whatever it pleases them. And when people )As predicted) moan about it, the spindoctor is put in position to tell everybody that they are wrong, that they just didnt understand what he was saying.Then there is the legal lobbyism where large companys can legally pay for a persons campaign. But wait a minute? arent part of the politicians job to control these large bodys? wouldnt that be a clear conflict of interrest ad infact make the politician the companys whore? Do you honestly think a company sponsor millions of dollars for the good of their heart?
EDIT just remembered this verse
Free-Minds And do not consume your money between you unjustly by bribing the decision makers so that you may consume a part of the other people's money sinfully while you know!
Thousands of people have workd for the past 50 years in democracy's all over the world to change both because they are obviously completely insane. So far they havent succeded. why might that be?
So when yo uhave been lied to and accepted one lie over another, and now you have your guy in there, this guy and his peers have the right to put a few people in the board of direction of our national banks, the rest of the members are from privately owned organisations. Now wait a minute?
As money are THE MOST important institution in any society, wouldnt it be more "democratic" to make it a money system working for the people rather than one that enslaves them? Could it be that it was never the intention to begin with ?Thousands of people have workd for the past 50 years in democracy's all over the world to change it becauseit is obviously completely insane. So far they havent succeded. why might that be?
is it that all these people simply doesnt have the requird talent? isnt that a little too easy an explanation?If somebody steals you car, the coppers will take him. he will go to a court of "justice" get a fine and perhaps jail. How is that going to give you, your car back? what good does that do you?
However there are insurance companys fortunally that will give you a new car (perhaps). But wait a minute? Dont i end up paying for my own car once more as insurance isnt excactly free? what kind of justice is that?In denmark this has been tried to change since the 50's. Many good men and woman have stood up and pointed out that state fines and jail is not equal justice for the offended. Nothing has changed, is that because all these good people just wasnt good enough? Or perhaps had a loud enough voice?
And it just goes on. On the surface democracy is the least bad system. But behind the scenes, it is as sinister as any dictatorship, as they have the same paymasters!
I warmly reccomed this book written by former member of congres for the republican party Gary Allen, released in 1972
http//reactor-core.org/pics/nonedare-199ae4c4.jpg
http//reactor-core.org/none-dare.html (free e-book)Peace
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Noah, I must admit that at first I was skeptical of your conspiracy-theory sounding posts in the past, but after I read your background, I'm beginning to take your word more seriously.
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Noah, I must admit that at first I was skeptical of your conspiracy-theory sounding posts in the past, but after I read your background, I'm beginning to take your word more seriously.
Look andy. even my dad openly admits that there is a conspiracy apperatus at work in the world. But he say, there is nothing that you can do about it, get the best out of it. And that is in my eyes the conspiracy itself. Sure there are the elite, but it is the mentality of the people that makes them so.
Its not like we spoke about masonry or things like that at the dinner table. Its more like the whole family knows why uncle has had that post he has forever, and will ahve untill he is carried out from there. I love my uncle, he is sweet and generous, but part of something evil to the bone. The whole family knows why dad (whom i love dearly) is hunted for those positiions. Because he accepts the system, and thus will work for it, and its promotion. Masonry is nothing but organised crime, tho to some of the lower degree (or socalled blue degrees) honestly belive it is a charity organisation, and are genuinely good people. Altso there is a big difference between different lodges, some are honest good people, and masonry is a social club. Others like seraphien...well. It might be charity, but dont you dare say no to them....sound more like mafia doesnt it?
Andy please read the book. He talks about why it is so important that we stop labeling hard critique of societys highest, as conspiracy. WE ALL belive in conspiracies, only someone decide wich ones were allowed to belive and wich are crackpot.
We went to war in Iraq based on a conspiracy theory about a mad gang of arabs.
we know that hitler burned the reichtag
we know nero set rome ablazewhy are we so stupid, as to think people crawing for power have stopped conspiring against is? why has the word conspiracy changed it meaning to mean, crackpot conspiracy THEORY?
Be aware of those who try to discredit the messenger so you dont get to hear the message brother
Peace
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It's just that before, I never actually met anyone who's actually been 'inside' before. Your background gave you more credibility than other sources, and your familiarity with us here means that it's easier to check on you, unlike other authors who are distant from us.
As I said, I believe you now. I'll pick up the book sometime... I had a feeling that I may have a lot of spare time ahead.
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In the strictest sense of the word, theocracy consists of two distinct terms "theo" which means "God" and "cracy" which means "form of government". Hence a true theocracy would be "Rule by God".
That is excactly what it is. Rule by God.
Whose God? God of the Muslims?, God of the Jews? God of the Hindus? God of the Deist? God of the Philosphers? God of the Mystics?
In a society of individuals with different beliefs can you not see how absurd Theocracy is?
So because you can mention systems that are worse, democracy becomes good?
DEMOCRACY is the BEST of the worst types of government as I said before. And it has been borne out of human experiences of the our human past. Democracy is also an evolutionary ideal. It has evolved from its initial inception by the Ancient Greeks in their city states to the parliamentary democracy of the United Kingdom. Noah, democracy is indeed is flawed but we can work with DEMOCRACY to make it better. We can't do this with DICTATORSHIP or THEOCRACY! Can you not see this?
btw. heard this one; You cant buy alcohol in Iran, but you can get stoned
Good one -) And you still want a THEOCRACY Noah?
(regarding communism) Noah wrote
No it failed because it was meant to. it failed by design, and all you need to do is go to any good library AND STUDY! where it came from ,where the money came from etc.Communism came from Karl Marx who spent years in the British Library! So Karl Marx conspired to bring about communism so that it will fail after causing so much death and destruction?
Some are born paranoid, some achieve the state of paranoia and some want paranoia thrust upon others!
You say only Elite govern. And now that I have shown you how a humble individual from humble beginings, from a Bengali minority, can rise to position of power in a democracy, you now say HE HAS NO POWER?
Absolutely ,just like Blair has no real power, just like Bush has no real power. The politcians put into power are just that, put into power by their masters. But perhaps you expect to see him rise to the level of prime minister? as if!
Blair and Bush has no power? So they are not to be blamed then when they went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan because after all they have no power? So in effect even dictators don't have power in this world do they? So you can say even vile dictators are blameless. So all those millions died in the Russian Gulags was not the fault of Stalin because Stalin had no power!
1.real power, sets the agenda
2.high echelon elite, promotes the agenda
3.prime ministers/presidents, enforce and promote the agenda (knowingly or not)
4.politicians, think they decide the agenda, wich they do as long as what they promote fit into the overall plan.
5.law enforcement, enforce the agenda on the microscale
6.the people, think they have a choice, wich they do. They can put anyone they want into point 4 but thats hardly power to the people.Who are these people then? Aliens from Planet Zog? David Ikes Lizard People? Shadow Armies of the FreeMasons or the Secretive Illumnati who hide their identity in Da Vinci paintings?
yes LT you money isnt yours! they are DEBT notes! Wich you would know if you spend your time studying rather than listen to your own voice.
Money is a human invention just like internet is a human invention. I don't own the internet just like you don't "own" money, you accumulate money. Money is the replacement for the barter system of trade of our ancient past, just like internet is the replacement for the telephone system of communications.
There are many more people like Shahid Malik who did not sit on their backsides and complained but worked hard to get where they are now. And they are making their voices heard.
voices hehe...yeah, but talking doesnt move the wheelbarrel does it?
In DEMOCRACY this is how we do things, not with guns and bullets as in a DICTATORSHIP or even THEOCRACY.
Born into a powerfull family of free masons. Dad is diplomat for the US government (and headhunted for the UN council and the world bank), uncle is the leader of the largest union in Denmark has been since forever, tho they claim its the members that keep choosing him. In a democratic process. Cousin, fastest blazing young politician in Denmark etc..
age 18, start record company
age 20, start production company
age 22 sell both of makes a lot of money
age 22 start E-learning company, get involved with local politics.
age 23 Make a famed - E-learning system for the largest insurance company in Denmark. Is chosen to represent the area in the politcal arena locally.
age 24, is asked to join seraphien masons, but blankly refuse
age 24 loose the contract all of a sudden
age 24 is asked to join seraphien masons as they are sure last time was an err. refuse again
age 24 go bankrupt as the bank withdraw the credit out of blue air, but was clever enough never to stand as responsible owner so the personal loss is minimal.age 25 realise politics work by a sinister force behind it, that is coorporate and protective of its own interrests. Have several run ins with members who openly admit so. and tell me that if i go public they would just discredit me...same old procedure.
age 25 leave society to make my living like I chose to, by the rules that I accept. The rest is nothing but manipulation.thats lazy to you? Know you kow me Lote Tree, so please stop assuming EVER again! It is offensive.
Sorry Noah, your writings does not say any of this previously. And I am not a mind reader!
Perhaps with your family background and connections it is easy to do all these things. And if you were that good why give up so easily? What I am seeing now is that you are a failed local politician and a failed business man too. And it seems you have made your personal failure a vendentta against the system that gave you so much opportunity to do these things. Trying and failing is not always bad. Sometimes we need to fail so that we can achieve even better things. Sometimes we need to taste that bitterness of failure to better ourselves. I have failed so many times Noah. And failure was constant theme in my life. Even now fear of failure still lurks in the background.
The real driver is the people but you can't see because you can't connect with people. You rather connect with a book instead.
wow LT, you never get tired of assuming do you? Seriosly, you need to do your homework. Im sorry that your whole world will crack if democracy shows to be equally rotten to every other system man have thought up just because you left the book.
DEMOCRACY is best of the rotten systems even theocracy. Do you not get this?
If you are so connected to people you wouldnt need to assume as much as you do, or be as snide.
I don't assume Noah, it is just that you don't grasp the implications of what you say.
Mr. Shahid Malik, Lord Choudhury and Lord Desai and many others did not sit on the backsides but they did something about it. They worked hard to make their voices heard in the high places of government.
And what have they changed? So they had their voices heard, then what? what happened?
Why don't you ask him?
..and yet he was able to participate in the political process in the Government of UK!
and that has changed what? All that bloodt talking does ont change the REAL problems that we have at all.
Thats how we do things in a democracy by talking not guns and bullets as in DICTATORSHIP and THEOCRACY.
and work to change things then you might as well just moan and complain and let the people that have some determination, courage and imagination like Mr. Shahid Malik and others to take up the challenge and have their voices heard...
thats a lot of talking these guys do, im more of an action, kind of guy.
Few years ago there were no people like Shahid Malik in government. And now there is. And there are more like him, talented, ambitious and determined to suceed. We need more people like him so that they can bring their brilliance and talent into the government and take up the challenges of the society that they live in and give it a new impetus for change and betterment for us all. If you are action type of guy thats good for you. But words can bring about such a momentus change in people and society as in the words of Martin Luther King "I have a dream...."
Regards,
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Whose God? God of the Muslims?, God of the Jews? God of the Hindus? God of the Deist? God of the Philosphers? God of the Mystics?
In a society of individuals with different beliefs can you not see how absurd Theocracy is?
Nope, people should judge with what God has given them. The muslims by Qur'an, jews by the taurath etc.
DEMOCRACY is the BEST of the worst types of government as I said before. And it has been borne out of human experiences of the our human past. Democracy is also an evolutionary ideal. It has evolved from its initial inception by the Ancient Greeks in their city states to the parliamentary democracy of the United Kingdom. Noah, democracy is indeed is flawed but we can work with DEMOCRACY to make it better.
If that really was so, democracy would have been far better allready. 200 years is a long test period LT. It always end up comming down tot he same in all forms of governing. the golden rule. He who has the gold maketh the rule.
We can't do this with DICTATORSHIP or THEOCRACY! Can you not see this?
To you those are one and the same. to me they arent. In a theorcracy i would have certain imutable human rights. In a democracy those arent secured. And dont talk about iran etc, because we both know that they judge with anything but what God gave them.
Good one -) And you still want a THEOCRACY Noah?
Not based on hadeeth i dont. But to be a theocracy it would have to have something to do with God, wouldnt you agree?
Communism came from Karl Marx who spent years in the British Library!
Where he found a manifesto by a pesky baverian group, that years before had been arrested for conspiring against the state. The only speculation there is to this is whether he was payed to put his name to the documents, or simply was arrogant enough to steal it and present it as his own. I dont know. But fact is that his manifesto is 11 similar to that of the illumbrades.
So Karl Marx conspired to bring about communism so that it will fail after causing so much death and destruction?
Im not so sure that he saw it this way. Rather as the manifistation of the heagelian principle. So once again, to really understand anything in politics. Follow the money...and i suggest you do so lote tree.
Some are born paranoid, some achieve the state of paranoia and some want paranoia thrust upon others!
"All complex problems has easy, simple to understand wrong answers"
Blair and Bush has no power? So they are not to be blamed then when they went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan because after all they have no power?
Twisting again are we? is it in lack of better that you do it? They are to be blamed as much as anyone participating in this system. Did i say they where blame free? its not like they seem to mins beind the pawn of evil.
So in effect even dictators don't have power in this world do they? So you can say even vile dictators are blameless. So all those millions died in the Russian Gulags was not the fault of Stalin because Stalin had no power!
Stalin didnt seem to mind being the pawn of evil like he was. Its all choices that we make ourself. Everyone in this sytem actively promoting it, is to blame. Not knowing is not even an excuse, because that makes you no less part of the problem.
Who are these people then? Aliens from Planet Zog? David Ikes Lizard People? Shadow Armies of the FreeMasons or the Secretive Illumnati who hide their identity in Da Vinci paintings?
None of the above. But it would be a very good idea to look into the royalty of the world, if you really want to know. It would be an even better idea to look into vatican money, and vatican connection to sweitzerland and what is known as international maritime admiralty law.
I have said it before and i will say it again as you obviously do not understand this simple concept...FOLLOW THE MONEY!Money is a human invention just like internet is a human invention. I don't own the internet just like you don't "own" money, you accumulate money. Money is the replacement for the barter system of trade of our ancient past, just like internet is the replacement for the telephone system of communications.
wrong analogy. The internet is not contantly being made up out of thin air and then put under usury. When you go to the bank and loan 30.000. they dont go and fetch 30.000 in the bloody vault. They make a check account in your name worth 30.000 (you name makes the money), and then you have to pay that air back, with an amount of air you have got somewhere else. The danger is the boubles that this system create, and we have seen what happens numerous times when they burt, how whole countrys are thrown into depression and hunger.
Extract from a letter written by Rothschild Bros of London to a New York firm of bankers on 25 June 1863
"The few who can understand the System (Cheque Money and Credits) will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favours, that there will be no opposition from that class. While on the other hand, the great body of people mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical (hostile, hurtful) to their interests."
Given this mans C.V i would claim that he properbly knows what he talks about.
In DEMOCRACY this is how we do things, not with guns and bullets as in a DICTATORSHIP or even THEOCRACY.
proof that you mix these two concepts up. And no, thats not how things are done. thats how you think things are done. Where in the Quran does it let us know that we are to govern eachother with bullets?
Sorry Noah, your writings does not say any of this previously. And I am not a mind reader!
then why are you assuming as much as you do? about others, about what we think, about what we "really" mean wit hwhat we say?
Perhaps with your family background and connections it is easy to do all these things. And if you were that good why give up so easily?
you are assuming that i gave up. Lote tree, you cannot read minds capich??
What I am seeing now is that you are a failed local politician and a failed business man too. And it seems you have made your personal failure a vendentta against the system that gave you so much opportunity to do these things.
you have no idea what happened. yet you are allready out guessing in the wild. Its amazing, you should be a novelist
Trying and failing is not always bad.
agreed
Sometimes we need to fail so that we can achieve even better things. Sometimes we need to taste that bitterness of failure to better ourselves. I have failed so many times Noah. And failure was constant theme in my life. Even now fear of failure still lurks in the background.
I fear failure in front of God. nothing else.
DEMOCRACY is best of the rotten systems even theocracy. Do you not get this?
Yes i have understood that YOU feel this way about democracy. I have reason to believe it is just another beast dressed up. It sure acts like it.
I don't assume Noah, it is just that you don't grasp the implications of what you say.
indeed i do.
Why don't you ask him?
becasue you brought it up. im asking you!
and that has changed what? All that bloodt talking does ont change the REAL problems that we have at all.
Thats how we do things in a democracy by talking not guns and bullets as in DICTATORSHIP and THEOCRACY.
Yes yes, but what did it change lote tree, your not even answering the question. just going off key again about dictators
Few years ago there were no people like Shahid Malik in government. And now there is. And there are more like him, talented, ambitious and determined to suceed. We need more people like him so that they can bring their brilliance and talent into the government and take up the challenges of the society that they live in and give it a new impetus for change and betterment for us all.
Like what, what has it changed that he is in there. be precise. did he get more food for the homeless on the streets? WHAT changed, because he is in there?
If you are action type of guy thats good for you. But words can bring about such a momentus change in people and society as in the words of Martin Luther King "I have a dream...."
So had mickey mouse, and none of them came true.
regards
-
Whose God? God of the Muslims?, God of the Jews? God of the Hindus? God of the Deist? God of the Philosphers? God of the Mystics?
In a society of individuals with different beliefs can you not see how absurd Theocracy is?
Nope, people should judge with what God has given them. The muslims by Qur'an, jews by the taurath etc.
Noah, you are indeed naieve! This forum is a testament to how you can't implement theocracy! We can't even agree on the meaning of Quranic verses, let alone do anything else! Samir and his blind believers will want everyone to be subservient to his hadith and sunnah and Islamic state! Damon will want to take his followers to an Island and setup a God alone society! Priest Bokmei wants us to eat pork because his understanding of Quran is different from yours. Shias want to be ruled by the secretive Mahdi etc. etc.
And what about the atheist? They don't want to be ruled by a God that they don't beleive in?
What will happen to them?DEMOCRACY is the BEST of the worst types of government as I said before. And it has been borne out of human experiences of the our human past. Democracy is also an evolutionary ideal. It has evolved from its initial inception by the Ancient Greeks in their city states to the parliamentary democracy of the United Kingdom. Noah, democracy is indeed is flawed but we can work with DEMOCRACY to make it better.
If that really was so, democracy would have been far better allready. 200 years is a long test period LT. It always end up comming down tot he same in all forms of governing. the golden rule. He who has the gold maketh the rule.
It is better already. And will be better in the future. But we will have to work hard to make it better.
Tell me Noah, how many millions of its own citizen died under democracy? How many millions sent to gulags and prisons under a democracy?
You are Swedish. And Sweden is a very peacful society under democracy. Are the any gulags there where political prisoners are tortured and maimed?
To you those are one and the same. to me they arent. In a theorcracy i would have certain imutable human rights. In a democracy those arent secured.And dont talk about iran etc, because we both know that they judge with anything but what God gave them.
But can you not see in a Theocracy or dictatorship you can't do anything about it?
Good one And you still want a THEOCRACY Noah?
Not based on hadeeth i dont. But to be a theocracy it would have to have something to do with God, wouldnt you agree?
So THEOCRACY based on the Quran? But we can't even agree amongst ourselves the meaning of the Quranic verses! No, Noah I don't think you can have THEOCRACY because rule of God means different things to different group of people. And in a society there will always be individuals of different beliefs. Therefore only secular democracy is the only way forward where everyone participates in the democratic process and decides on how to govern themselves.
Communism came from Karl Marx who spent years in the British Library!
Where he found a manifesto by a pesky baverian group, that years before had been arrested for conspiring against the state. The only speculation there is to this is whether he was payed to put his name to the documents, or simply was arrogant enough to steal it and present it as his own. I dont know. But fact is that his manifesto is 11 similar to that of the illumbrades.
So more conspiracies? Where does it end? Lets put this things aside chap on focus on democracy!
So Karl Marx conspired to bring about communism so that it will fail after causing so much death and destruction?
Im not so sure that he saw it this way. Rather as the manifistation of the heagelian principle. So once again, to really understand anything in politics. Follow the money...and i suggest you do so lote tree.
So he now unwittingly created communism and unwittingly designed it so that it fails?
I think I will follow my sanity Noah -)"All complex problems has easy, simple to understand wrong answers"
All complex problems can be explained away by conspiracies theories.
And all simple problems can be complicated by conspiracies theories.
-)Blair and Bush has no power? So they are not to be blamed then when they went to war in Iraq and Afghanistan because after all they have no power?
Twisting again are we? is it in lack of better that you do it? They are to be blamed as much as anyone participating in this system. Did i say they where blame free? its not like they seem to mins beind the pawn of evil.
Look I am tired of this game. You say Bush and Blair have no power and they are only puppets. And that they are only pawns at the hands of their shadowy masters. So if they have no power then they are not responsible for their actions are they?
So in effect even dictators don't have power in this world do they? So you can say even vile dictators are blameless. So all those millions died in the Russian Gulags was not the fault of Stalin because Stalin had no power!
Stalin didnt seem to mind being the pawn of evil like he was.
But he had no choice in becoming a evil pawn did he? since its the shadowy masters that select the pawns?
Who are these people then? Aliens from Planet Zog? David Ikes Lizard People? Shadow Armies of the FreeMasons or the Secretive Illumnati who hide their identity in Da Vinci paintings?
None of the above. But it would be a very good idea to look into the royalty of the world,
We have done away with Royalty. They are only figureheads now.
In the UK they are major tourist attractions. They have no power!It would be an even better idea to look into vatican money, and vatican connection to sweitzerland and what is known as international maritime admiralty law.
Are you implying that vatican is the Shadowy masters? Who invented the Maritime Admiralty Law? Human beings? yes? Then we can replace it!
I have said it before and i will say it again as you obviously do not understand this simple concept...FOLLOW THE MONEY!
I say this again Money is a human invention to replace the barter system of the ancient past. And I also said if money is your problem then live in a Kibutzim!
wrong analogy. The internet is not contantly being made up out of thin air and then put under usury.
It is constantly expanding out of "thin-air" and more people are communicating with each other.
When you go to the bank and loan 30.000. they dont go and fetch 30.000 in the bloody vault.
And thats the problem you have? When you go to a bank for a loan you want them to count 30,000 notes and give them to you over the counter? Look chap commerce has moved on from our early days of trading with shells and bird feathers. Current monetary system is invented by human beings. If you think it is not working then invent one better that meets the need of the modern society!
"The few who can understand the System (Cheque Money and Credits) will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favours, that there will be no opposition from that class. While on the other hand, the great body of people mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical (hostile, hurtful) to their interests."
Given this mans C.V i would claim that he properbly knows what he talks about.
Any system that ceases to be effective it will be changed. Just like communism was not effective and it was abandoned. Just like kingship was abandoned because it was not effective for the liberated individuals.
In DEMOCRACY this is how we do things, not with guns and bullets as in a DICTATORSHIP or even THEOCRACY.
proof that you mix these two concepts up. And no, thats not how things are done. thats how you think things are done. Where in the Quran does it let us know that we are to govern eachother with bullets?
Hey in Iran people are being publicly flogged for minor of offences like girls baring their hair! In a Theocracy the vast majority will not have any say in how they should be governed! And Quran is anti-democratic anway as well as anti-theoratic! So stop bringing Quran to support theocracy because it does not support theocracy!
Sometimes we need to fail so that we can achieve even better things. Sometimes we need to taste that bitterness of failure to better ourselves. I have failed so many times Noah. And failure was constant theme in my life. Even now fear of failure still lurks in the background.
I fear failure in front of God. nothing else.
I have no such fear Noah because I do not approach my "God" out of fear but only view to understand, appreciate, admire and love.
Yes i have understood that YOU feel this way about democracy. I have reason to believe it is just another beast dressed up. It sure acts like it.
Yes yes, but what did it change lote tree, your not even answering the question. just going off key again about dictators
A lot of things. Asians in the UK are now lot more confident in expressing their views, they are participating in the society where they came as penniless immigrants. They are becoming sucessful in businesses etc. They are represented in the local and national elections. Their voices are heard in the highest places in the government. Those that have succedded in businesses and other ventures taking up the challenge of social issues that concern their communities. And those that entered politics have managed to implement laws to protect and help the minorities like Race Equality, Incitement to Racial Hatred laws etc. etc.. and the list goes...these things would not have come about if people like Shahid Malik and Lord Chowdhuries sat on their backsides and did nothing...
If you are action type of guy thats good for you. But words can bring about such a momentus change in people and society as in the words of Martin Luther King "I have a dream...."
So had mickey mouse, and none of them came true.
At least micky mouse made people smile and happy -)
You make people sad and miserable and tell people to
chase after conspiracy theories -)Regards,
-
I did not have chance to visit this forum for long time. As it seems, that among all the points I discussed in the Manifesto for Islamic Reform, my positive words about democracy created the most controversy.
Democracy, by definition, is respect to the choice of people regarding THEIR own lives and lifestyles. (I do not claim that the US is a democratically governed by democracy; democracy is mostly a packaging gimmick here).
The promoters of monarchies or aristocracies forget the fact that to rule others a person or a group must have legitimacy. The Quran chastised Muhammad for his tendency to become a monarch or a tyrant "wa ma anta alayhim bi musaytir," and ordered him to consult to the very people who elected him as their leader.
Muhammad did not become a ruler by force! Again, Muhammad did not become a ruler by force! He was selected by God as a messenger, but he was elected by people (muslims, and Yathrib's nasara, jews, and pagans) as their leader. So, his authority to govern among them came from their votes (beya), and his authority continued as long as he based his decision related to their affairs after consultation.
The pro-king crowd cannot see this fact. They confuse God's messengers with their corrupt kings. God's messengers risk their lives to change their societies. They are revolutionary leaders. They do not impose their message or system on people. They deliver the message of change to a hostile audience. They claim leadership over ONLY those who elect them... Thus, many messengers came and went without being able to establish the divine system among their people....
Democracy may not exist in the Quran as a word, many Quranic principles, such as consultation, freedom of choice, freedom of expression, multiple jurisdiction, rejection of accumulation of power through monopoly, defending the rights of the weak and oppressed fight against their rulers, all describe an ecology of a democratic system.
Furthermore, the following verse unequivocally supports the natural nature of democracy
"God will not change the situation of any community, unless they change themselves."
So, it is not upto an authoritarian king to change people, it is upto people to change their situation, which includes their leadership, their government and their way of life.
I reject any king (just or unjust) who claim authority over my affairs based on his genetic superiority or birth-right. However, I accept the just leaders who are elected by me and the community which I have chosen to join through a social contract.
Anti-democratic and backward people do not have any right to complain about the corruption of kings, oligarchs, or special interest, since, according to the Quran, "they accepted the oppression."
Peace,
Edip -
Edip, when's your book on this issue coming out? I want to be the first to undertake its refutation and expose
Democracy, by definition, is respect to the choice of people regarding THEIR own lives and lifestyles. (I do not claim that the US is a democratically governed by democracy; democracy is mostly a packaging gimmick here).
Yesss, lets do that. Lets surrender to capitalists, binge-drinkers, sunni prayer-forcers and the like. Thier own lives seem to infringe on others by definition.
The promoters of monarchies or aristocracies forget the fact that to rule others a person or a group must have legitimacy. The Quran chastised Muhammad for his tendency to become a monarch or a tyrant "wa ma anta alayhim bi musaytir," and ordered him to consult to the very people who elected him as their leader.
Half the story as usual. 3/159 says 'fa izaa azamTA' so it was one guy alone who made decisions. Consulting doesn't mean accepting, it means consulting, getting opinions.
Muhammad did not become a ruler by force! Again, Muhammad did not become a ruler by force! He was selected by God as a messenger, but he was elected by people (muslims, and Yathrib's nasara, jews, and pagans) as their leader. So, his authority to govern among them came from their votes (beya), and his authority continued as long as he based his decision related to their affairs after consultation.
Show me proof that he was 'elected' so and so. Suddenly you dont find the need to back things up with verses? come on Edip, Daniel Lomax can do better than this!
The pro-king crowd cannot see this fact. They confuse God's messengers with their corrupt kings. God's messengers risk their lives to change their societies. They are revolutionary leaders. They do not impose their message or system on people. They deliver the message of change to a hostile audience. They claim leadership over ONLY those who elect them... Thus, many messengers came and went without being able to establish the divine system among their people....
Did God call David a CORRUPT king? If you find David irrelevant, say so. Don't be a coward and just overlook his existence in the book.
The author of the Quran seems to be part of the pro-king crowd. He included David, Solomon AND Ibrahim , who was placed by Allah as imam of mankind. Nowhere was he elected either.
IS THE QURAN IRRELEVANT , EDIP ?
If it is, say so. Be truthful about it. No one's gonna have a problem with you reneging on the ayat. You deleted 2 before anyway.
Democracy may not exist in the Quran as a word, many Quranic principles, such as
consultation,
After which the messenger decides and you have to obey him.
freedom of choice
limited to ones place. In an islamic domain, killing people is not a choice.
, freedom of expression,
asking to get people killed? is that ok in an islamic domain?
multiple jurisdiction,
false again. We are to be judged by Allah and his messenger.
rejection of accumulation of power through monopoly
Agreed here, but thats the command of Allah warasul, not the majority.
, defending the rights of the weak and oppressed fight against their rulers,
Same as above.
God will not change the situation of any community, unless they change themselves."
So, it is not upto an authoritarian king to change people, it is upto people to change their situation, which includes their leadership, their government and their way of life.
Where does the Quran charge a king with 'changing' people. David was given MULK, power. He cannot make people change, he just punishes them if they go wrong.
Anti-democratic and backward people do not have any right to complain about the corruption of kings, oligarchs, or special interest, since, according to the Quran, "they accepted the oppression."
Does your Quran not have info on David, Edip? Im just wondering cause you math-boys have a tendency to expunge.