MANIFESTO for Islamic Reform

mquran

Oh Chap this is not a school play ground and we are not kids! This is a forum. Answer the question if you like, if not it does not matter

LT, behind that facade of sophistication you project, lies an empty vessel. The truth is, you have done zero reading and even with that, you opine on the Quran. No wonder your opinions appear hollow. You don't even know what a 'muslim' is.

And no, the Quran doesn't promote democracy. Not at all.

unknownuser

And no, the Quran doesn't promote democracy. Not at all.

Then we are in AGREEMENT here (suprisingly enough! -))

QURAN IS ANTI-DEMOCRATIC

So why is Mr. Edip Yuksel saying Quran promotes DEMOCRACY?

LT, behind that facade of sophistication you project, lies an empty vessel.

Did I project such sophistication to you?
You make me smile -)

I am so unsophisticated, chap. I am just an ordinary Joe Bloggs.

And yes I have emptied myself of everything so that I contain your all your sublime wisdom. So lets have it -)

The truth is, you have done zero reading and even with that, you opine on the Quran.

Really? -)
Where do you think the login ID "Lote-Tree" comes from?
Here is a clue sidrati-almuntaha

No wonder your opinions appear hollow.

Another critic?
A critic knows the price of everything and value of nothing.
(a joke -))

But it looks like there is no getting away from you personalising this thread!
-(

Regards

mquran

Then we are in AGREEMENT here (suprisingly enough! )

QURAN IS ANTI-DEMOCRATIC

So why is Mr. Edip Yuksel saying Quran promotes DEMOCRACY?

I don't know. Long time ago, Mr Yuksel rightly told me to make my own opinions about Islam. Now im saying the same thing to you. If you have a problem with my opinions, don't tell me Mr so and so said so and so. This shows that you have no mind of your own. Opine for yourself and bring your opinions forward.

Did I project such sophistication to you?
You make me smile

What does the word 'FACADE' mean ?

Really?
Where do you think the login ID "Lote-Tree" comes from?
Here is a clue sidrati-almuntaha

And where does the word 'dhimmi' come from ?

Now why are you so afraid to tell us what a Muslim is? You have avoided this question for so long. For all your blustery bravado of calling me to another thread, you shy away from a very simple question. Rather strange.

unknownuser

Then we are in AGREEMENT here (suprisingly enough! )

QURAN IS ANTI-DEMOCRATIC

So why is Mr. Edip Yuksel saying Quran promotes DEMOCRACY?

I don't know. Long time ago, Mr Yuksel rightly told me to make my own opinions about Islam. Now im saying the same thing to you. If you have a problem with my opinions, don't tell me Mr so and so said so and so.

Well if Quran is ANTI-DEMOCRATIC then it has serious implications for all the Quran Alone believers that live in democratic societies around the world - does it not?

I think that is the question that needs to be addressed!

This shows that you have no mind of your own. Opine for yourself and bring your opinions forward.

Says the guy who does not trust his own REASON!
As for my opinions I think I have made it clear to you in countless threads.

Did I project such sophistication to you?
You make me smile

What does the word 'FACADE' mean ?

Yes, even FACADE of sophistication.
I am amused that I could do that to you! -)

And where does the word 'dhimmi' come from ?

Now why are you so afraid to tell us what a Muslim is?

This thread is about democracy and the Quran. Keep to the theme of the thread.

For all your blustery bravado of calling me to another thread, you shy away from a very simple question. Rather strange.

Hey you had your chances. You did not respond to that thread.
Little Anwar and kindly Leyla came and spoke on your behalf. Nice of them. Why did you hide.

But I say lets not go personal.

The Real issue on this thread is DEMOCRACY and the QURAN!
How do you reconcile the two?

Regards,

Jaxal

SaLaM LT and mquran

Just becoz it dont mention in the Qruan, dont mean Quran is anti-democratic. roll

mquran

Well if Quran is ANTI-DEMOCRATIC then it has serious implications for all the Quran Alone believers that live in democratic societies around the world - does it not?

I think that is the question that needs to be addressed!

Why would it? In a 'democracy' (not that the UK and USA are democracies) everyone has a right to vote or not to vote. I don't vote.

Says the guy who does not trust his own REASON!
As for my opinions I think I have made it clear to you in countless threads.

False. I said I trust the quran over my reasoning. Just like you trust books you never read over yours.

This thread is about democracy and the Quran. Keep to the theme of the thread.

Duly noted. Here's the thread where you criticised the quran and where I posed the question before. Lets see if you'll answer the question there

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4061

After all, that thread's all about that.

Hey you had your chances. You did not respond to that thread.
Little Anwar and kindly Leyla came and spoke on your behalf. Nice of them. Why did you hide.

But I say lets not go personal.

I didn't know I was being called for as I was away. As for going 'personal', I think its quite cheeky that its coming from you who actually NAMES threads after people.

The Real issue on this thread is DEMOCRACY and the QURAN!
How do you reconcile the two?

Why should I reconcile the two , for a start?

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Jaxal,

Just becoz it dont mention in the Qruan, dont mean Quran is anti-democratic

Democracy is obviously not mentioned in Al-quraan. However, what we can do here is deconstruct the meaning of democracy in normative usage.

Democracy simply means power of the people. In 'democracies' ALL legislative power belongs to the people. People can formulate laws over and above God's laws. This is how it is in the world.

Al-Quraan on the other commands a body of laws called 'al-ahkaam' (sing. hukm) . These laws are not up for negotiation as it would be shirik/associators to accept other legislators.

So yes, I would say Al-quraan is anti-democratic.

savage_carrot

Peace mquran,

I agree in the most part with your post, I have a question though.

Al-Quraan on the other commands a body of laws called 'al-ahkaam' (sing. hukm) . These laws are not up for negotiation as it would be shirik/associators to accept other legislators.

I would like to know if these laws would be up for different interpretations? Basically, would non negotiable include just one interpretation thats static for all time?

Thanks,
Nadia

unknownuser

Well if Quran is ANTI-DEMOCRATIC then it has serious implications for all the Quran Alone believers that live in democratic societies around the world - does it not?

I think that is the question that needs to be addressed!

Why would it? In a 'democracy' (not that the UK and USA are
democracies) everyone has a right to vote or not to vote. I don't vote.

Perhaps that is the reason why Pakistan and many of the middle eastern countries is so undemocratic, because whole ethos of the Quran is anti-democractic and this is reflected in their societies too?

Says the guy who does not trust his own REASON!
As for my opinions I think I have made it clear to you in countless threads.

False. I said I trust the quran over my reasoning.

This is called abdicating your REASON.
You have no REASON of your OWN because QURAN is your REASON.

Just like you trust books you never read over yours.

At least I am not limited to just ONE book! -)
For you Quran is your entire story and history and everything.
As for reading check surah 53, verse 14 - another clue -)

This thread is about democracy and the Quran. Keep to the theme of the thread.

Duly noted.

About time!

I didn't know I was being called for as I was away. As for going 'personal', I think its quite cheeky that its coming from you who actually NAMES threads after people.

Yes, I got tired of your personal remarks in countless other threads things like "he is so full of himself etc..", so I created a thread in your honour but you did not respond did you? though knew about the thread! But you had your opportunity but now its gone.

The Real issue on this thread is DEMOCRACY and the QURAN!
How do you reconcile the two?

Why should I reconcile the two, for a start?

Because you live in a society that goes against the whole ethos of the Quran which is anti-democratic.

Regards,

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Nadia,

I would like to know if these laws would be up for different interpretations? Basically, would non negotiable include just one interpretation thats static for all time?

If you see 3/159 , it does talk about consulting with the believers but the decision making ability lies with the messenger (or one currently in that role). One guy has to lead, the one who has the dominion/mulk. Of course, that person's understand is susceptible to growth and people are free to disobey him if they so choose.

savage_carrot

Peace mquran,

If you see 3/159 , it does talk about consulting with the believers but the decision making ability lies with the messenger (or one currently in that role). One guy has to lead, the one who has the dominion/mulk. Of course, that person's understand is susceptible to growth and people are free to disobey him if they so choose.

Yes, that makes sense. I asked the question before in this thread and wasn't clear on this aspect.

Regards,
Nadia

mquran

Perhaps that is the reason why Pakistan and many of the middle eastern countries is so undemocratic, because whole ethos of the Quran is anti-democractic and this is reflected in their societies too?

YOU are a bigger fan of the Quran than they are so before you accuse the Quran of anything, read it first. Plucking out two words from a translation doesn't constitute reading, unless of course you took two years to pick up the phrase (and to imagine the word 'dhimmi')

This is called abdicating your REASON.
You have no REASON of your OWN because QURAN is your REASON

If I had reasoning like yours, I would acquire a pet chimpanzee and ape him (no pun intended).

Yes, I got tired of your personal remarks in countless other threads things like "he is so full of himself etc..", so I created a thread in your honour but you did not respond did you? though knew about the thread! But you had your opportunity but now its gone.

Wow, are you the queen of england or something ? Perhaps Prince Phillip, considering your racist tendencies.

Why should I reconcile the two, for a start?

Because you live in a society that goes against the whole ethos of the Quran which is anti-democratic.

WHOLE ethos ? What utter nonsense. Seriously, are you pretending to be this blind, because no one can intentionally speak like this.

The UK has many similar values to al-quraan, such as social welfare and the promotion of knowledge. However , UK society does have elements which are anti-quranic such as the teleologisation of the holiday, the ideal home and the good life. The crucial element however, is that in this society, we're allowed freedom of views. Even socialists and anarchists, who are also anti-democracy, are allowed thier freedom.

unknownuser

YOU are a bigger fan of the Quran than they are so before you accuse the Quran of anything, read it first. Plucking out two words from a translation doesn't constitute reading, unless of course you took two years to pick up the phrase (and to imagine the word 'dhimmi')

Before you said I have done ZERO reading of the Quran now I am plucking out two words!! Please make your mind up (but sorry you don't have a mind of your own, time to dive into the scripture again chap -))

This is called abdicating your REASON.
You have no REASON of your OWN because QURAN is your REASON

If I had reasoning like yours, I would acquire a pet chimpanzee and ape him (no pun intended).

I thought you already got a chimpanzee - and you know what I am talking about don't you? -)

Yes, I got tired of your personal remarks in countless other threads things like "he is so full of himself etc..", so I created a thread in your honour but you did not respond did you? though knew about the thread! But you had your opportunity but now its gone.

Wow, are you the queen of england or something ? Perhaps Prince Phillip, considering your racist tendencies.

Queen of England? - I thought that was you!! -)

You call me soft liberal and now a racist! Please make up your mind up (but sorry you don't have mind of your own do you, time to dive into the scripture again)

WHOLE ethos ? What utter nonsense. Seriously, are you pretending to be this blind, because no one can intentionally speak like this.

Hey you said yourself that Quran is anti-democractic. So make your mind up (but sorry you dont.... etc etc..)

The UK has many similar values to al-quraan, such as social welfare and the promotion of knowledge.

How fortunate but it's democracy is anti-quranic isn't it.

However , UK society does have elements which are anti-quranic such as the teleologisation of the holiday, the ideal home and the good life.

tele... what? Ideal Home and Good life is anti-quranic -)
blimey!

The crucial element however, is that in this society, we're allowed freedom of views. Even socialists and anarchists, who are also anti-democracy, are allowed their freedom.

But previously you said freedom, demcracy, tolearnce are guilt words! make your mind up chap (but sorry you don't have .... etc. etc.

Regards,

Nural_Amin

Peace,

Democracy is an idea but it doesn't seem to be working very well today! Look at the state of the world, something clearly went wrong with democracy, and this is not the first time democracy has failed, lets hope it'll be the last major failure for a long time.

Have you heard the saing 'Same sh*t, different day'? Well this is the case with the human struggle, it looks like a continous struggle and fight between ideas whether they are good or evil are for us to decide.

Nural

Fahad1

peace all .

i agree that democracy is not right .
but how about a "democratic theocracy" ? .
because ppl will have different understandings of the koran . so who will decide which understanding to follow ?

peace.

Jaxal

SaLaM mquran

Of course, that person's understand is susceptible to growth and people are free to disobey him if they so choose.

So if the people see that their leader is unfit to lead them, they can choose to throw him out and put someone in who they agree is more fit to lead them. Ok... its called voting. It happens in every democratic country. The people CHOOSE who will lead them. Unlike pre-war Iraq where saddam was the only ruler. Now, Iraq is democratic coz it can choose its own leader. And i dont find anything in the Quran that contradicts that.

zenje

because ppl will have different understandings of the koran . so who will decide which understanding to follow ?
Follow God alone, and everything will be clear. )

Peace

Fahad1

because ppl will have different understandings of the koran . so who will decide which understanding to follow ?
Follow God alone, and everything will be clear. )

Peace

there will always be difference in opinions . what is clear to me might not be clear to you .

peace.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum,

Nurul AminDemocracy is an idea but it doesn't seem to be working very well today! Look at the state of the world, something clearly went wrong with democracy, and this is not the first time democracy has failed, lets hope it'll be the last major failure for a long time.

Brother, democracy doesn't exist to begin with. 'Labour' and 'conservative' are but names now, not actual policies. It's akin to people calling themselves 'muslims' but not actually identifying the essence of the meaning.

i agree that democracy is not right .
but how about a "democratic theocracy" ? .
because ppl will have different understandings of the koran . so who will decide which understanding to follow ?

The person who has carved out a domain of power will decide. Of course, he can accept or reject advice from others. If others reject him, they are also free to leave.

Jaxal So if the people see that their leader is unfit to lead them, they can choose to throw him out and put someone in who they agree is more fit to lead them.

They cannot do this if it's HIS domain. In today's terms, lets say you establish an organisation and the HQ is your building. Can people vote you out of your own building? They are of course free to leave but they can't kick you out of your ownership.

Jaxal Ok... its called voting. It happens in every democratic country. The people CHOOSE who will lead them. Unlike pre-war Iraq where saddam was the only ruler. Now, Iraq is democratic coz it can choose its own leader. And i dont find anything in the Quran that contradicts that.

Contradicts ? The quran clearly tells us how David attained mulk/power. Please see 2/251. He didn't attain power by being voted into power. He attained it. The illusion of the state gives only illusory notions of power. In truth, people who hold the cards are the financiers.

mquran