Monistic Panentheism
-
I think I heard a paradoxical horn!
Sorry, guys, for stepping away from the discussion. All this physics jargon is way over my head- although Sytalls and Neo did a heck of a job articulating it for us laypeople.
It's funny how I hated science in HS, and now, I wish I could go back and re-energize that fertile mind I had. I was too busy trying to be cool
Anyhow, I've been putting into practice some of what I've been reading and just thought I'd share...
in "the Power of Now", Tolle continuously stuffs the idea of body recognition down the reader's throat. The idea is that when you focus on the body at any given point in time, you force the mind into the "now", essentially forcing the mind to release the soul into the foreground. I've been trying this periodically and the results are pretty freakin awesome.
At first, when I focused on my body, I had to keep "hushhhh"-ing my mind from thought. I focused on my breathing, then the conditioned air interacting with my skin, then my limbs, and so on. Before I knew it, my mind was silent, and the "white noise" of daily life came into focus. And then my mind barged back into thought and the experience was over.
What's interesting is the more often I do it, the easier it is, and the more peaceful I feel throughout the day. There's almost a romance to the sound of the fan oscillating back and forth. Even the hum of the computer is somehow soothing. The idea is to pay attention to everything around you - now. When you shower, rather than plan your day, let yourself enjoy the feeling of the water running through your hair, and down your back, all the way down to your toes. When you walk, pay attention to the muscles in your legs contracting with every stride. When you're outdoors, look at the clouds, the trees. Listen to the sounds of life. When you eat, focus on the explosion of tastes, the grinding of the food into digestable paste, the throat muscles working the food down your throat, into your stomach. Heck, even my craps are enjoyable!
All this attention on the now keeps the mind from burying the soul with constant inner dialogue. One of the benefits I'm noticing is the angle of my attention during conversation. I've always been a pretty good listener, but recently, the connections have been deeper. I don't just listen to what the person is saying, I'm starting to see past the words and see right into their soul. I know it may sound strange, but that's the only way I can describe it.
And the more I talk to people, the more I'm seeing that we're all the same. I don't mean this in the sense that we are similar, but that we are identical, beneath the mind. We can truly understand each other if we cease with the silent judgement. It's difficult, because the mind is programmed to take everything it perceives and either compare it to the past, project it into the future, or file it away into the memory banks. This all happens in milliseconds throughout conversation. Observe your mind in action as you listen to someone and see how quickly it works. Count how many judgements you've made in a 5 minute conversation. It's amazing.
And this is how most people spend their days - reflecting on the past or worrying about the future, or judging every person or thing they see, cross-referencing past experiences and future possibilities. How many times have you had a complete conversation with someone in your mind, only to get worked up or stressed out for absolutely nothing? The mind can run wild with any thought and conjure up all the emotions that go along with it. Recognizing this is the first step to getting back control of your infinite soul.
Thanks for listening.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
Nicely done. Reading the first half of your post, was summed up in one word for me, which is awareness. This is something you don't need to read in a book to experience (which you already know), but it's practice can be improved on. To illustrate, Karachi in the peak of summer, coming home from school, listening to samba pa ti, that was it. In that one exp, you felt the lull/heaviness/silence in the atmosphere, yet the signs of life/business/noise at the same time...oppositional yet complementing each other...a fusion of sorts that normally should not co exist. These kind of experiences happen now and then, but I think the key is a heightened sense of awareness/perception. You could practise it regularly, I personally would rather let it come to me...not a big fan of ohming and finding my center. Normally, these experiences come regularly and I'm not 'meditating' as it's called. Just a sudden rush and a heightened awareness, akin to intuition, akin to perception...those are what I believe in...but it's different for everyone as we know...
The latter part i completely agree with, and it's truly amazing how the mind works...as for the infinite soul, imo there is only one infinite, the rest is either indefinite or finite. Since infinity can't be divided, can't be split into smaller parts and retain it's intrinsic quality of infinity, that spells it out for me...I can't speculate as to what the indefinite soul is, where will it go etc in the end, so we are all on the same page on that!
Best wishes,
Nadia -
Peace Nadia,
Reading the first half of your post, was summed up in one word for me, which is awareness.
Exactamundo!
These kind of experiences happen now and then, but I think the key is a heightened sense of awareness/perception. You could practise it regularly, I personally would rather let it come to me...not a big fan of ohming and finding my center.
I understand completely. I've bought meditation tapes, read countless books on meditation, and long for the day that I can actually have an hour every morning to sit on the beach and just listen to life. What this book is teaching me is that it's not necessary. Just a simple recognition of now practised throughout the day, in between and during the routines of life, will accomplish the same goal - awareness, and reconnecting with the infinite.
If you wait for it to come to you, you're relinquishing control to the mind and to external influence.
Hope that makes sense.
as for the infinite soul, imo there is only one infinite, the rest is either indefinite or finite.
Let me ask you this Can you think of anything that is truly finite-something that doesn't transform?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
I understand completely. I've bought meditation tapes, read countless books on meditation, and long for the day that I can actually have an hour every morning to sit on the beach and just listen to life. What this book is teaching me is that it's not necessary. Just a simple recognition of now practised throughout the day, in between and during the routines of life, will accomplish the same goal - awareness, and reconnecting with the infinite.
If you wait for it to come to you, you're relinquishing control to the mind and to external influence.I understand and agree, the kind of awareness I illustrated was an example of this, you could consciously bring it about. The other kind that just happens is more difficult to describe, y'know the inspirational/intuitional kind...that is something that won't happen unless it does...don't know if thats clear?
Let me ask you this Can you think of anything that is truly finite-something that doesn't transform?
Finite by definition is something that has limits. Something created, something ending, whichever way you look at it...so the transforming would be? Another start/end? Or would it be seamless in which transformation would not affect it? In which case you would have everything infinite? Please clarify, 'cause these days the words pig meat are revolving in my head to many ideas' detriment...
Nadia
-
Peace Nadia,
The other kind that just happens is more difficult to describe, y'know the inspirational/intuitional kind...that is something that won't happen unless it does...don't know if thats clear?
Perfectly. I am starting to wonder, however, if there really is a difference between the 2. Perhaps the one would evolve into the next if we just allowed it a little time to cultivate.
Finite by definition is something that has limits. Something created, something ending, whichever way you look at it...so the transforming would be? Another start/end? Or would it be seamless in which transformation would not affect it? In which case you would have everything infinite? Please clarify, 'cause these days the words pig meat are revolving in my head to many ideas' detriment...
LOL
OK...I'll give it my best shot with the hope that this doesn't get technical. The other day I noticed a massive spider crawling on my floor. While I usually don't kill web spiders, since they are beneficial to my environment, this one was a ground spider that looked big enough to inflict a nasty bite. So I smacked it with my sha'hata (flip-flop) and instantly it was dead - from a biological standpoint. From a spiritual perspective, the life force left the being. From a physics perspective, the spider was still very much alive, as the atoms of hydrogen and oxygen and carbon and whatever else, were still there, in front of me, doing their little imperceptible dance.
Focusing on the spiritual perspective, where did the life force go, if it existed in the first place? Currently, I'm of the opinion that the life force, the energy that animates, is not an individual soul that exists in each being, but an infinite blanket of energy that animates all beings. When you step on a spider, the energy just transfers elsewhere, or retreats back to the Source. It's like taking a sponge and dipping it in the ocean, taking it home, and wringing it out in your sink. The water does not disappear. It makes it's way back to the ocean. Perhaps, on it's way, it's absorbed by the roots of a tree, or evaporated into the clouds, or ingested by a thirsty mammal. No matter what, however, the water does not disappear.
In this sense, I feel it's safe to say that the sum total of all of life is ever-changing, but never-ending, atleast from a human perspective.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
Perfectly. I am starting to wonder, however, if there really is a difference between the 2. Perhaps the one would evolve into the next if we just allowed it a little time to cultivate.
Had to edit to get this in, thats a good question. I suppose unless we have that by practising the other...kinda hard to say...also even if it happens then, could it just be something that was given to you because it was the right time as opposed to something that came solely out of your own efforts?
OK...I'll give it my best shot with the hope that this doesn't get technical. The other day I noticed a massive spider crawling on my floor. While I usually don't kill web spiders, since they are beneficial to my environment, this one was a ground spider that looked big enough to inflict a nasty bite. So I smacked it with my sha'hata (flip-flop) and instantly it was dead - from a biological standpoint. From a spiritual perspective, the life force left the being. From a physics perspective, the spider was still very much alive, as the atoms of hydrogen and oxygen and carbon and whatever else, were still there, in front of me, doing their little imperceptible dance.
That's clear enough, so i'll ask a question, does that mean that there was nothing that made that particular spider that particular spider (indv entity)? Thus all spiders are the same, thus everything is the same? Animals might be a tad difficult to work with here, so let's choose humans. Say a human died, let's call him Tom, does that mean that which made that human, in particular Tom, also disperse? Or was it a collection of energy that made that human, in particular Tom, go somewhere else as a collective (as in still intact)? Is there anything that makes us unique or different from the rest? If not, and all souls are the same, then where is the individuality? In which case could two people, Tom and Bill be put through the same situation and make the exact same choices? There has to be an individuality, a difference imo that would remain even after the death, or there is no point in life as we know it (test), and everyone would have the same results if the outside variables are the same. Don't know if this is where you wanted to go but just thoughts i had reading the first half...
Focusing on the spiritual perspective, where did the life force go, if it existed in the first place? Currently, I'm of the opinion that the life force, the energy that animates, is not an individual soul that exists in each being, but an infinite blanket of energy that animates all beings. When you step on a spider, the energy just transfers elsewhere, or retreats back to the Source. It's like taking a sponge and dipping it in the ocean, taking it home, and wringing it out in your sink. The water does not disappear. It makes it's way back to the ocean. Perhaps, on it's way, it's absorbed by the roots of a tree, or evaporated into the clouds, or ingested by a thirsty mammal. No matter what, however, the water does not disappear.
This brings me to my reply above. If it's not an individual soul, then we are all the same and there is no point in being put through this existence as it's called a test. Could there be a point if I didn't know there was a purpose? I don't know. But what I do think as is mentioned in the reading, that it is for a purpose and that purpose is a test for distinguishing those among us that would make the 'right' choices as specified by the infinite creator itself. For that individual entity to make choices and then disperse is kinda huh? But for that entity to make right choices or wrong choices and then be taken somewhere collectively makes sense...
In this sense, I feel it's safe to say that the sum total of all of life is ever-changing, but never-ending, atleast from a human perspective.
I would have to say, that it could be changing from one status to another, but with an individuality intact and that we had a starting point, as in we are distict from the creator, thus we are indefinite...as it's not specified when, if ever, we will cease to exist.
Hope I didn't go off on a tangent...It's difficult discussing abstract concepts without doing that )
Nadia
-
Peace Tay,
I am going to take a long break from FreeMinds Forum. I'll reply to your post when I get back.
Anwar Azim
Peace Anwar,
You stated
The CPU is likened to the brain. I can hardly see how the CPU is likened to the mind.
As Neo stated, they are one and the same.
8< 8< 8< snip snip snip >8 <8 <8
Tay
-
Peace Nadia,
also even if it happens then, could it just be something that was given to you because it was the right time as opposed to something that came solely out of your own efforts?
I suppose. Seems a bit random but I wouldn't rule it out. I saw "the Skeleton Key" the other night, and one line from the movie that stuck with me..."It can only happen if you believe". Perhaps we all have these experiences and just give them different names, or perhaps only those that believe can truly feel the effects of the inspirations/intuitions. And perhaps those that believe can work on catalyzing these inspirations through their own efforts. I'm beginning to think this is possible, from my own experiences.
does that mean that there was nothing that made that particular spider that particular spider (indv entity)? Thus all spiders are the same, thus everything is the same?
I've been chewing on this for a few days and, to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure. This touches on the rest of your replies so I'll run with it from here...
On the one hand, I see and experience the "Oneness". On the other, I see and experience the indivuality. I find myself asking, "Is it the mind that tricks us into thinking we are seperate entities? Is this the true essence of the ego, of Iblis?? Afterall, it was Iblis that seperated from the path. But of course, seperation cannot happen unless God allows the seperation, or better yet, unless God decides on a seperation. But then again, if God is Omnipresent, then can seperation ever even happen?
This is the mystery of all mysteries.
God is everywhere.
I am here.
God is here.Is there seperation?
Is there individuality?I don't know, but it seems to me that God's omnipresence and our individuality are at odds.
What are your thoughts?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
I suppose. Seems a bit random but I wouldn't rule it out. I saw "the Skeleton Key" the other night, and one line from the movie that stuck with me..."It can only happen if you believe". Perhaps we all have these experiences and just give them different names, or perhaps only those that believe can truly feel the effects of the inspirations/intuitions. And perhaps those that believe can work on catalyzing these inspirations through their own efforts. I'm beginning to think this is possible, from my own experiences.
It could possible...but I would also say what you are targeting and how would/could be a factor...
On the one hand, I see and experience the "Oneness". On the other, I see and experience the indivuality. I find myself asking, "Is it the mind that tricks us into thinking we are seperate entities? Is this the true essence of the ego, of Iblis?? Afterall, it was Iblis that seperated from the path. But of course, seperation cannot happen unless God allows the seperation, or better yet, unless God decides on a seperation. But then again, if God is Omnipresent, then can seperation ever even happen?
This is the mystery of all mysteries.
God is everywhere.
I am here.
God is here.Is there seperation?
Is there individuality?I don't know, but it seems to me that God's omnipresence and our individuality are at odds.
I would tend to disagree on the ego bit, because being an individual doesn't mean you are following your ego. You could have an opinion and it doesn't necessarily follow that it is egoistical, or rebellious. Tom could think a certain way and Bill could think a certain way, why do we have to be the same for there to be no seperation? There is unity in diversity as you said as well (don't remember which post now). I think that our individuality is in perfect harmony with God, think a.i...it's created, individual yet seperate? Thoughts?
Nadia
edit sp corr
-
God is everywhere.
I am here.
God is here.Is there seperation?
Is there individuality?God can't be one with humans; humans can't be a part of god. However, god's intellect can be ever-present over us - but that's distinguished from god physically being 'everywhere'. So yes, there is individuality.
-
Peace Nadia, Neo,
Nadia, you stated
I would tend to disagree on the ego bit, because being an individual doesn't mean you are following your ego. You could have an opinion and it doesn't necessarily follow that it is egoistical, or rebellious.
I'm not speaking of ego as rebellious nature or in any negative sense, ie, pride. Think more in terms of
- The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ego
We are told in the Qur'an that Iblis split from the path. Iblis is the only character beside mankind mentioned as not being in perfect harmony with God. Everything else submits. Do you see the connection?
Tom could think a certain way and Bill could think a certain way, why do we have to be the same for there to be no seperation?
Thinking is exactly the point. What we think does not define us, it only defines the sum total of experiences.
There is unity in diversity as you said as well
Of course. And I still believe that, as humanity, we are one in our diversity. But what I'm grasping at right now is beyond the effects of the diverse environments. What I'm grasping at is what lies under the consciousness that experiences the diversity. I'm trying to understand that being that remains when the mind stops talking, and reflecting, and projecting, etc. That silent entity that simply observes without judgement, that listens and feels and empathizes without word or mental construct, is the real me. The mind is just a product of it's environment. All we can do is direct the mind, but who is doing the directing?
Neo, you stated
God can't be one with humans; humans can't be a part of god.
Why not? The Qur'an tells us that God is closer than the jugular vein, and the jugular vein is an internal part of the human anatomy. What could be closer than the internal human anatomy?
However, god's intellect can be ever-present over us - but that's distinguished from god physically being 'everywhere'.
What, exactly, is the difference?
Peace,
Tay - The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.
-
Why not? The Qur'an tells us that God is closer than the jugular vein, and the jugular vein is an internal part of the human anatomy. What could be closer than the internal human anatomy?
I don't think that verse was meant to be taken literally because that would mean there's a discreet distance between the 'god' that is apparently within us and our 'minds'. A more consistent way of interpreting that verse would be to mean god's intellect is omnipresent ('the all seeing eye') since we are god's creation.
However, god's intellect can be ever-present over us - but that's distinguished from god physically being 'everywhere'.
What, exactly, is the difference?
Peace,
TayIntellect is not tangible, however god being physically present is tangible (meaning its consequences can effectively be measured...). Our universe is tangible (i.e. detectable through our senses) and god is defined as the intangible (I'm pretty sure the Qu'ran explicitely states that god is beyond our senses) thus there's a direct incoherency between the universe we know and god's attributes.
-
Peace Neo,
you stated
I don't think that verse was meant to be taken literally because that would mean there's a discreet distance between the 'god' that is apparently within us and our 'minds'.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by a distance within us. Please elaborate.
Intellect is not tangible, however god being physically present is tangible (meaning its consequences can effectively be measured...). Our universe is tangible (i.e. detectable through our senses) and god is defined as the intangible (I'm pretty sure the Qu'ran explicitely states that god is beyond our senses) thus there's a direct incoherency between the universe we know and god's attributes.
As you know, the closer we look at the tangible, the less tangible anything really is. Certainly, God is beyond our thought processes. But I still don't see this as an answer to the problem of me being "here" and God being "here".
The problem comes in understanding what "here" really is. I am amidst a field of atoms that are comprised of nearly 100% space, or nothing. Yet I have self awareness amidst this nothing. So what seperates me from the nothing?
Peace,
Tay -
I'm not quite sure what you mean by a distance within us. Please elaborate.
If you interpret it literally, the statement "closer than the jugular vein" sets up a locale for the 'closeness' of god right? It's closer than the left ventricle, it's closer than our vocal chords, it's closer than the jugular vein however it's not closer than, say, the frontal lobe of the brain. For example, if I say "I'm closer than two blocks from where you live" it mplies I live somewhere between you and two blocks; meaing the distance is greater than 0 but less than 2. Thus there's a discreet distance between 'god' and 'us', if the statement was interpreted literally.
As you know, the closer we look at the tangible, the less tangible anything really is. Certainly, God is beyond our thought processes. But I still don't see this as an answer to the problem of me being "here" and God being "here".
The problem comes in understanding what "here" really is. I am amidst a field of atoms that are comprised of nearly 100% space, or nothing. Yet I have self awareness amidst this nothing. So what seperates me from the nothing?
Peace,
TayI think saying 'nearly 100% space' is a bit misleading since it isn't. It's true there's a lot of 'space' relative to the number of particles within an atom, but it's not 100%. Reality as we exerience it is still tangible (as is the jugular vein ); it can be seen, heard, felt, and smelt. God is not tangible and god is inpenetrable to our senses. Also, if god was 'with us' then it would imply god's attributes would be reduced to the finite and it would no longer be 'god'. If you assume the contrary, which is 'we transcend the tangible reality and live in gods realm' - you'll have to explain how the universe, which is bound by time, can reside inside eternity where time doesn't exist. And then you'll have to explain how infinite can be divisible and broken up into discreet quantities. Not to mention that it would mean we are all 'gods'.
-
Peace Neo,
If you interpret it literally, the statement "closer than the jugular vein" sets up a locale for the 'closeness' of god right? It's closer than the left ventricle, it's closer than our vocal chords, it's closer than the jugular vein however it's not closer than, say, the frontal lobe of the brain.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree. You've taken one view and applied it as universal. The way I see it, the jugular vein is within. God is closer to us than the jugular vein, or, God is closer to us than the body part that is within. If God is closer than that which is within, then something else is being demostrated here. This does not set up a locale, but in fact, demonstrates the transcendance of any possible locale we can fathom in tangible terms. I'm not saying that my view is the right view, just that it is a possibility that happens to work.
I think saying 'nearly 100% space' is a bit misleading since it isn't. It's true there's a lot of 'space' relative to the number of particles within an atom, but it's not 100%.
What is the statistic you refer to by saying "a lot of space", if it's not nearly 100%?
Reality as we exerience it is still tangible (as is the jugular vein ); it can be seen, heard, felt, and smelt.
and tasted wink
but that doesn't mean it's really there. All perception only takes place in the mind. Green to me may not look the same as green to you, though we both may like green. We'll never know if it's perceived the same way because the only place the perception exists is in the mind.God is not tangible and god is inpenetrable to our senses. Also, if god was 'with us' then it would imply god's attributes would be reduced to the finite and it would no longer be 'god'.
What is finite? Time and space? These are illusions. They do not exist. The only thing that exists is thought/consciousness/awareness. Everything else is just theory... more thought.
Just because God seems beyond our physical senses does not mean we are not immersed in God's energy.
If you assume the contrary, which is 'we transcend the tangible reality and live in gods realm' - you'll have to explain how the universe, which is bound by time, can reside inside eternity where time doesn't exist.
I don't make that assumption. My assumption is only that there is one possible reality and we are swimming in it. Time does not exist, nor does space. It's always "Now" and I'm always "here".
Peace,
Tay