thufur (6:146) and animal hunting/aljawarih (5:4)
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Salam,
TH-Fa-RA can be read as thufr = nail, claw in the singular form or thufur which can be considered as the singular or the plural form of thufr.
Let us suppose that TH-Fa-RA means claws in 6146, the birds have also claws/nail like human and several animals.
From 7160 we read that the people of Moses enjoyed delicious bird meat (quail).
The hunting animals like dogs, some birds (falcons), lions are quilified as aljawarih in the light of the Reading (54).
all that have claws are not under the hunting animals/aljawarih.
Looking for your thoughts,
Salam
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Salaams ,
according to my understanding from lanes - th-f-rzufurun , is reffering to animals with claws used for fighting their enemies to kill and or cause damage, and may not be any animal with nails .
Salaams.
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Salam,
Salaams ,
according to my understanding from lanes - th-f-rzufurun , is reffering to animals with claws used for fighting their enemies to kill and or cause damage, and may not be any animal with nails .
Salaams.
Thanks MZ for your anderstanding, but it cannot be supported by the Reading.
In 6146,we read ALL that have thufur/kulla thee thufurin without any exception. both the nail of human or claw of the bird are called thufur in arabic.nail or claw are not the only meaning of the word thufur/thufr
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Salaams Marie,
you said "cannot be supported by the reading"
lets see the only other place this word accurs is
Wahuwa allathee kaffa aydiyahumAAankum waaydiyakum AAanhum bibatni makkata min baAAdi ANATHFARAKUM AAalayhim wakana Allahubima taAAmaloona baseeran
And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.And it is fighting ??????
Salaams.
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Salaams Marie,
you said "cannot be supported by the reading"
lets see the only other place this word accurs is
Wahuwa allathee kaffa aydiyahumAAankum waaydiyakum AAanhum bibatni makkata min baAAdi ANATHFARAKUM AAalayhim wakana Allahubima taAAmaloona baseeran
And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.And it is fighting ??????
Salaams.
Ideed the verb athfarakum can have the same root than thufur.
But athfarakum which means He gave you the victory whatever the tools of the war has nothing to do with all that have thufur (6146).
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Salam,
For the moment I don't think that Thufur means claw(s) because this translation is vague and ambiguous. It implies that The hunting animals + all birds are prohibited for COI.
If the God would mean the animals which hunt with their claws or carnivore; the word "aljawarih" like in 54 is more accurate than "all that have thufur"(6146).
Since the language of the Reading is concise "all that have thufur" concerns a specific category of animals and we should be able to define it in the light of the Reading GW.
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I think PB is on the right path again.
Salaams.
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PEACE, MZ357 and MARIE,
That thurfur means claws is really indisputable, however, what is up for clarification are definitions for manna and quail. It is my present understanding that neither are food stuffs. Following is my comments to S. CARRROT, on Is Swine Halal, thread
Thurfur, without doubt, means claws and quails have claws, this is clear. As Al-Quran cannot contradict itself, you may have the correct response to what, initially, may appear to be a discrepancy. Another possibility is that, manna and quail may have absolutely nothing to do with food at all, but states of well-being.
Main Entry MANNA/ MIM- NUN to fatigue to be gracious reproach lay under obligation to be liberal to bestow a grace or favor on any one. The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, Abdul Mannan Omar, pg. 543
Main Entry SALWA/SALA/QUAIL to be careless about a thing diverted from console be dispelled from grief comfort consolation quail honey. The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, Abdul Mannan Omar, pg. 269.
From the above definitions then, manna , these definitions, then, are totally consistent with what they COI must have experienced during their sojourn and, at the same time, these definitions dispell any notion of a discrepancy between ayats 6146 and 7160, as albion is claiming.
All I have as resources are, The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, by Omar and A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, by Hans Wehr. The Hans Wehr dictionary has the same meaning for manna and quail as Omar's and this is what lead me to consider that manna and quail were probably not food stuffs, as neither dictionary listed manna as being any kind of known food. Where I did find manna defined as a plant, it use was medicinal (laxative) and not a food.
"The term manna is also used in the modern context to refer to a secretion from various plants, including certain desert or semi-desert shrubs and especially the Ash Fraxinus ornus (manna or flowering ash) of Southern Europe. The material is produced by sap-sucking insects that secrete a honeydew like liquid, that when dried forms manna; it has a sweet taste. Eaten in large quantities, it is mildly laxative and has been used medicinally for that purpose."--Retrieved from "http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manna"
Looking forward to your reply.
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Peace PB,
For the moment I don't think that Thufur means claw(s) because this translation is vague and ambiguous. It implies that The hunting animals + all birds are prohibited for COI.
Whatever the classical meaning attributed to thufur, what I try to say according this translation, that implies the God forbade for COI all birds because they also have the claws.
"All that have claws" is ambigous, vague and can generate contradictions inside the Reading.
The goal is not to put the obvious meaning (like dharaba/to beat, shahr/month) in the translation but to choose the best translation which is coherent with the whole Reading.
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Peace Marie all,
Whatever the classical meaning attributed to thufur, what I try to say according this translation, that implies the God forbade for COI all birds because they also have the claws.
I think according to 6146 God forbade for the Jews everything with nails/claws. The title CoI is not used in 6146. Just an observation, I think there is something important about this distinction, as maybe this restriction came down with Moses in the Torah, in other words the Jews (those guided by the scripture/torah/law?), applicable to them after revelation of this restriction in the Torah.
I'm all for looking at alternative meanings, at the moment this does seem the best and least confusing meaning...
Nadia
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PEACE, MARIE,
For the moment I don't think that Thufur means claw(s) because this translation is vague and ambiguous. It implies that The hunting animals + all birds are prohibited for COI. Whatever the classical meaning attributed to thufur, what I try to say according this translation, that implies the God forbade for COI all birds because they also have the claws.
Al-Quran, if I am understanding ayat 6146 in context, is stating that animals with claws were made haram as food for the Jews, but not haram to be used in other ways. For example, dogs.
"All that have claws" is ambigous, vague and can generate contradictions inside the Reading. The goal is not to put the obvious meaning (like dharaba/to beat, shahr/month) in the translation but to choose the best translation which is coherent with the whole Reading.
I can't agree that thufur... "all that have claws" or "animals with claws", is vague and ambiguous. Would you please give some examples of how thufur, to mean claws, generates contradictions within Al-Quran? Albion, presented one with the quail issue. Do you have any others?
Looking forward to your reply.
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Maybe you could have a look at Muhammad ali's explanations for the verses we are studying.
(thufr) -> see note 146a
http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch006-e.pdf(mann and salwa) -> see note 57b
http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch002-97.pdf-> see notes 93a an 93b
http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch003-123.pdfYou can also check out Sher Ali's one
(thufr) -> see note 886
http//www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=751®ion=E1(mann and salwa) -> see note 64
http//www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=119®ion=E1
http//www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=120®ion=E1-> see note 380
http//www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=427®ion=E1
http//www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=428®ion=E1Why not using the bible to understand the stories implying the children of Israel ?
Peace
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PEACE, /JM/,
Why not using the bible to understand the stories implying the children of Israel ?
The so-called Torah, is not mankind's book of guidance, Al-Quran is. Yusef Ali, attempts to explain Al-Quran by using material that is doubtful. Al-Quran is without doubt and, explains itself.
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PEACE, /JM/,
Why not using the bible to understand the stories implying the children of Israel ?
The so-called Torah, is not mankind's book of guidance, Al-Quran is. Yusef Ali, attempts to explain Al-Quran by using material that is doubtful. Al-Quran is without doubt and, explains itself.
Leviticus, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Ye shall eat no manner of fat, of ox, or of sheep, or of goat.
(cf http//www.godrules.net/library/kjv/kjvlev7.htm)Quran, And for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
Is this similitude only a coincidence ?
Peace
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Some explanations according to Jewish sources...
What did Israel forbid to himself in ?
The Torah prohibits eating the gid hanasheh - the sciatic nerve in both hind thighs of any kosher land animal (domesticated or wild).
http//www.ahavat-israel.com/torat/treif.php
genesis, The Israelites therefore do not eat the displaced nerve on the hip joint to this very day. This is because touched Jacob's thigh on the displaced nerve.
http//bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?action=displayanchor&pentid=P931
What is Displaced nerve ?
Gid ha-nasheh in Hebrew. This is the sciatic nerve, the large main nerve of the lower extremity, running down the back of the leg. Therefore, before the hindquarter of any animal can be eaten, this nerve, with all its branches, must be carefully removed. Since it is very difficult to do this, hindquarters are usually not eaten by Jews. The nerve touched by the angel is seen as the place where evil has strong influence (Zohar).
http//bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?action=displayanchor&pentid=P931
Jacob is Israel
genesis, 'Your name will no longer be said to be Jacob, but Israel (Yisra'el). You have become great (sar) before God and man. You have won.'
http//bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?action=displayanchor&pentid=P931
So, according to Jewish sources, what Israel forbade unto himself could have been the sciatic nerve.
What is thufr ?
The Torah forbids us to eat any land animal (or the milk of that animal) that does not have two distinctive simanim (signs, indications) that attest to its kashrut. The animal must both chew its cud (ruminate) and have completely cloven hooves. Cows, goats, sheep, deer, bison, gazelle, antelope, ibex, addax and giraffe are animals that have both of these characteristics and are considered beheimah tehorah (kosher animals) and need not be inspected individually. A pig does not chew its cud although it has split hooves. A camel chews its cud but has no split hooves. Both of these animals (and certainly an animal possessing neither of the simanim, like a donkey or horse) are therefore considered beheimah temeiah - ("unclean") non-kosher animals.
http//www.ahavat-israel.com/torat/treif.php
So according to Jewish sources, a thufr is a hoof. An animal with one hoof is permitted, and an animal with split hooves is forbidden.
What about quails ?
Some communities have a tradition that the quail is a kosher fowl.
http//www.ahavat-israel.com/torat/treif.php
So, quails would be permitted.
Peace
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PEACE, /JM/.
Most Muslims, I would assume, have never read the so-called Torah. So, what would an individual, who, has no knowledge of the so-called Torah, conclude from reading the following ayat, concerning what Allah made haram as food for Jews? Remember, per ayat 2185, Al-Quran and not the so-called Torah, is the guidance for mankind
6146 And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.
Given the following ayat and definitions, does Al-Quran really suggest that, salwa is a bird/animal?
7160 And We divided them into twelve tribes, as nations; and We revealed to Musa when his people asked him for water Strike the rock with your staff, so outnowed from it twelve springs; each tribe knew its drinking place; and We made the clouds to give shade over them and We sent to them manna and quails Eat of the good things We have given you. And they did not do Us any harm, but they did injustice to their own souls.
Main Entry MANNA/ MIM- NUN to fatigue to be gracious reproach lay under obligation to be liberal to bestow a grace or favor on any one. The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, Abdul Mannan Omar, pg. 543
Main Entry SALWA/SALA/QUAIL to be careless about a thing diverted from console be dispelled from grief comfort consolation quail honey. The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, Abdul Mannan Omar, pg. 269.
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For me, the torah (as well as the injeel) come from God, but may have been corrupted by humans.
So, we can conclude nothing based on these books.
But, studying these books can help us raise hypotheses, that have then to be validated by the quran.
The assertion that a thufr is a hoof is such an hypothesis.
God narrates us stories about the children of Israel, so, I think that there is no sin in gathering information about them in their history and traditions.Peace
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PEACE, /JM/
For me, the torah (as well as the injeel) come from God, but may have been corrupted by humans. So, we can conclude nothing based on these books. But, studying these books can help us raise hypotheses, that have then to be validated by the quran.The assertion that a thufr is a hoof is such an hypothesis. God narrates us stories about the children of Israel, so, I think that there is no sin in gathering information about them in their history and traditions.
I'm certainly not discounting the prior books/scriptures, because Allah does tell us to refer to them on a specific issue, however, we aren't to refer to these books for general guidance. We don't have to hypothesize about the definition of thufr, because it simply means claws in...Arabic. Neither Omar's nor Wehr's nor Steinglass's dictionaries, list hoof under THAFARA. Many Muslims remain dominated by Judeo-Christian theological concepts, because they insist on going outside of Al-Quran to for their guidance.
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Salam All,
Salaams ,
according to my understanding from lanes - th-f-rzufurun , is reffering to animals with claws used for fighting their enemies to kill and or cause damage, and may not be any animal with nails .
Salaams.
In some classic Arabic dictionaries ?Thufr? refers to the animal that cannot hunt. I would think of the deer as an example. So ?Thufr? or ?Thufur? could mean a potential ?prey?. An animal that cannot hunt yet can be hunted.
'Kulla thee Thufrin/Thufurin' is like when we read 'Kulla thee Haqinn'
'Haqinn' means (the) right (to something)'. 'Kulla' means Everyone or Everything that has/owns/gets 'the right' (to something). It could be something you would get and becomes rightfully yours.
What I want to say is that 'Haqinn' and 'Thufrin' are different entities than 'Kull'. 'Kulla thee thufrin' does not refer to one creature a creature that has a claw or a nail. It refers to two different creatures. Kulla (= Every) creature that can prey on a 'prey'.So when we read "Kulla thee thufurin" this means 'Every creature capable of preying on another creature'. So any creature that can basically hunt meaning has the means to hunt, is considered one of ?Kulla thee thufurin?. This includes humans. And so ?Kulla thee thufurin/thufrin?= ?every preying/hunting creature? is necessarily created with tools that enables it/him to consume it?s/his ?Thufur?= prey claws, canine, protein enzymes.. etc.. So 'Every preying/hunting creature' must either be a carnivore or omnivore? Rats are of ?Kulla thee thufurin? and so are the snakes...Pigs can eat and digest meat...take a look here
From http//www.thepigsite.com/pighealth/article.asp?ArticleID=3
The digestive system of the pig has the ability to convert vegetable and animal materials into highly digestible nutrients. Its anatomy and physiology are similar to that of humans. In the stomach the major disease problems are associated with inflammation of its lining called gastritis which may result in vomiting. Vomiting also occurs in systemic disease where the organism has spread throughout the body (in infections such as erysipelas), and from toxins produced by bacteria or during high fevers.