thufur (6:146) and animal hunting/aljawarih (5:4)
-
PEACE, /JM/
For me, the torah (as well as the injeel) come from God, but may have been corrupted by humans. So, we can conclude nothing based on these books. But, studying these books can help us raise hypotheses, that have then to be validated by the quran.The assertion that a thufr is a hoof is such an hypothesis. God narrates us stories about the children of Israel, so, I think that there is no sin in gathering information about them in their history and traditions.
I'm certainly not discounting the prior books/scriptures, because Allah does tell us to refer to them on a specific issue, however, we aren't to refer to these books for general guidance. We don't have to hypothesize about the definition of thufr, because it simply means claws in...Arabic. Neither Omar's nor Wehr's nor Steinglass's dictionaries, list hoof under THAFARA. Many Muslims remain dominated by Judeo-Christian theological concepts, because they insist on going outside of Al-Quran to for their guidance.
Have you checked other dictionnaries, like Lane's lexicon or Taj al-arus ?
Peace
-
Salam Nadia,
Peace Marie all,
Whatever the classical meaning attributed to thufur, what I try to say according this translation, that implies the God forbade for COI all birds because they also have the claws.
I think according to 6146 God forbade for the Jews everything with nails/claws. The title CoI is not used in 6146. Just an observation, I think there is something important about this distinction, as maybe this restriction came down with Moses in the Torah, in other words the Jews (those guided by the scripture/torah/law?), applicable to them after revelation of this restriction in the Torah.
You make a good observation, indeed 6146 is about "allatheena hadoo" not COI.
I would like to draw your attention that in Al Quran the people called Al Yahood are not one and the same as those called Allatheena Hadoo (= those who followed Guidance).
I'm not sure if is not the same thing than . I also doubt that those who followed Guidance is the good translation for "allatheena hadoo", the God mentioned some from them in a negative way
-
From amongst "those who followed Guidance?/allatheena hadoo" there are those who take the words out of context, and they Say We hear and disobey, and listen but let not any listen, and shepherd us, in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the system! And had they said We hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us, it would have been better for them and more upright; but God has cursed them for their disbelief, they do not believe except very little.
-
O messenger, do not be saddened by those who increase in disbelief from among those who said We believe with their mouths while their hearts did not believe. And from among those who followed Guidance?/allatheena hadoo, there are those who listened to lies; they listened to people who never came to you; they distort the words from their context, and they Say If you are given this, then take it, but if you are given anything different, then beware! And whoever God wants to test, then you will not posses anything for him against God. These are the ones whose hearts God did not want to cleanse; in this world they will have humiliation, and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
See also 6146, 16118
We read in 1976, allatheena ihtadaw = those who follow the guidance
See also 4717Chronologically, Can we say that the prophet Israel and COI existed before the revelation of the torah (393) until its revelation and "alyahood and "allatheena hadoo" are those who are described in the Reading after the revelation of the torath?
Salam
-
-
Peace sister Marie,
Chronologically, Can we say that the prophet Israel and COI existed before the revelation of the torah (393) until its revelation and "alyahood and "allatheena hadoo" are those who are described in the Reading after the revelation of the torath?
I agree. I think the "alyahood and "allatheena hadoo" are the ones talked about after revelation of the Torah (following the torah? claiming to?). When the title CoI is used to describe people after the revelation of the Torah, it is very interesting. Could it be referring back to the lineage? Or is it something else? I find the ways these descriptions (just one part of so many) used so precisely to be amazing, one of the things I love about the quran...it's logical precision.
edited to include
Additionally I wanted to add, I think guidance in these places where "alyahood and "allatheena hadoo" is used is referring to those following the torah/law/'guidance by particular scripture i.e torah'?. I think it is a bit more specific than general guidance...
As in 4717 and 1976 the guidance is being referred to as general, it could be guided by any scripture/anything...this definitely puts the"alyahood and "allatheena hadoo" terms in a more specific bracket. Would it be safe to say the above might be a possibility?
Nadia
-
PEACE, S. CARROT,
I think we can say this with certainty about the COI, and the Jews.
A. No food, at anytime, was made haram to the COI--393.
B. The Jews, at a certain point in their history, were forbidden to eat all animals with claws and the fat of oxen, because of their transgressions--6146.
C. The Messenger Jesus, made one of those two forbidden items made haram to the Jews, halal--350.
What do you think?
-
PEACE, /JM/
For me, the torah (as well as the injeel) come from God, but may have been corrupted by humans. So, we can conclude nothing based on these books. But, studying these books can help us raise hypotheses, that have then to be validated by the quran.The assertion that a thufr is a hoof is such an hypothesis. God narrates us stories about the children of Israel, so, I think that there is no sin in gathering information about them in their history and traditions.
I'm certainly not discounting the prior books/scriptures, because Allah does tell us to refer to them on a specific issue, however, we aren't to refer to these books for general guidance. We don't have to hypothesize about the definition of thufr, because it simply means claws in...Arabic. Neither Omar's nor Wehr's nor Steinglass's dictionaries, list hoof under THAFARA. Many Muslims remain dominated by Judeo-Christian theological concepts, because they insist on going outside of Al-Quran to for their guidance.
Have you checked other dictionnaries, like Lane's lexicon or Taj al-arus ?
Peace
I don't have Lane's, do you?
-
Peace PB,
I think we can say this with certainty about the COI, and the Jews.
A. No food, at anytime, was made haram to the COI--393.
B. The Jews, at a certain point in their history, were forbidden to eat all animals with claws and the fat of oxen, because of their transgressions--6146.
C. The Messenger Jesus, made one of those two forbidden items made haram to the Jews, halal--350.
What do you think?A. Not possible due to the same ayat 393 and the except therein.
B. Yes but after the revelation of this in the torah, keep in mind they were not the only restrictions on food.
C. We don't know. There is NO ayat that says Jesus used this authority and what he used it on.PS If you use the word swine/pig/hog or anything to do with those animals here, I'm going to request the mods to remove those posts. Thanks!
-
Salam Nadia,
Additionally I wanted to add, I think guidance in these places where "alyahood and "allatheena hadoo" is used is referring to those following the torah/law/'guidance by particular scripture i.e torah'?. I think it is a bit more specific than general guidance...
As in 4717 and 1976 the guidance is being referred to as general, it could be guided by any scripture/anything...this definitely puts the"alyahood and "allatheena hadoo" terms in a more specific bracket.
I think you are right.
The difference between allatheena ihtadaw = those who follow the guidance (4717 and 1976) and "allatheena hadoo" (6146..)
- Hadoo is conjugated in the past tense
- Ihtadaw is the same verb than Hadoo but conjugated in the present tense (those who fllow the guidance in general).
Salam
-
Salams Marie,
The difference between allatheena ihtadaw = those who follow the guidance (4717 and 1976) and "allatheena hadoo" (6146..)
- Hadoo is conjugated in the past tense
- Ihtadaw is the same verb than Hadoo but conjugated in the present tense (those who fllow the guidance in general).
Ihtadaw is in the past tense, the same as the verb Hadoo.
What does conjugated in the present tense mean since the verb 'Ihtadaw' is in the past tense? -
Salam Taj,
Salams Marie,
The difference between allatheena ihtadaw = those who follow the guidance (4717 and 1976) and "allatheena hadoo" (6146..)
- Hadoo is conjugated in the past tense
- Ihtadaw is the same verb than Hadoo but conjugated in the present tense (those who follow the guidance in general).
Ihtadaw is in the past tense, the same as the verb Hadoo.
What does conjugated in the present tense mean since the verb 'Ihtadaw' is in the past tense?I think Ihtadaw concerns those who follow the guidance in general both in the past, the present and the futur. (1976). It is not specific for a period. This is not a specific present (Now) but a general information whatever the time.
Can you tell me the present tense of this verb ?
Can you explain according to you the difference between Ihtadaw and hadoo in the light of the Reading?
Thanks
-
Salam Marie,
I think Ihtadaw concerns those who follow the guidance in general both in the past, the present and the futur. (1976). It is not specific for a period. This is not a specific present (Now) but a general information whatever the time.
Al Quran is for every time and every place.
Can you tell me the present tense of this verb ?
Ihtadaw masculine plural past tense.
Yahtadoona masculine plural present tense.Ihtadayna feminine plural past tense.
Yahtadeena feminine plural present tense.Ihtadaamasculine singular past tense.
Yahtadee masculine singular present tense.Ihtadatt feminine singular past tense.
Tahtadee feminine singular present tense.'Allatheena Hadoo' is different than 'Allatheena Ihtadaw'. They have different meanings.
'Allatheena Hadoo' means 'Those who have retreated to the right path/to the Truth/ to Allah'.
'Allatheena Ihtadaw' means 'Those who have arrived to the right path/the Truth'.'Allatheena Ihtadaw', 'Allatheen Hadoo' and 'Inna Hudna' can be applicable for all of us.
-
PEACE, S. CARROT,
Peace PB,
I think we can say this with certainty about the COI, and the Jews.
A. No food, at anytime, was made haram to the COI--393.
B. The Jews, at a certain point in their history, were forbidden to eat all animals with claws and the fat of oxen, because of their transgressions--6146.
C. The Messenger Jesus, made one of those two forbidden items made haram to the Jews, halal--350.
What do you think?A. Not possible due to the same ayat 393 and the except therein.
B. Yes but after the revelation of this in the torah, keep in mind they were not the only restrictions on food.
C. We don't know. There is NO ayat that says Jesus used this authority and what he used it on.A. Both you and Marie, if I am not mistaken, per ayat 393, state that the prophet Israel made something haram for himself. There is no evidence that what he imposed upon himself was also imposed on the COI.
B. If other species of animal for food or parts of particular species of animals for food , where made haram to the Jews outside of what is mentioned in ayat 6146, well, neither you nor I not anyone else, for a certainty, can determine what they were. What we do know for a certainty is that ayat 6146 names the haram things for food and it wasn't because these foodstuffs were haram due to their being fasiiqun/rijisun by their created nature, but as punishment for the transgressions of the Jews.
C. Not so. Ayat 6146, tells us what Allah made haram to the Jews. The following ayat tells us that Jews was allowed to make part of what was haram to them, halal again
350 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
PS If you use the word swine/pig/hog or anything to do with those animals here, I'm going to request the mods to remove those posts. Thanks
Why would you do that?! How do we discuss food restrictions and not mention the what the the restricted items were? Puzzling.
-
Peace PB,
These questions have been answered on the swine thread multiple times. Why don't you keep them to that thread then instead of branching out into a discussion where we are talking about the finer points of what some specific terms mean that have nothing to do with this infernal animal?!? Thats what your pork is isn't it? Is pig halal...it's amazing how all threads lead to this...
A. Both you and Marie, if I am not mistaken, per ayat 393, state that the prophet Israel made something haram for himself. There is no evidence that what he imposed upon himself was also imposed on the COI.
Like Marie said, ponder upon the verses...your questions have been answered on the swine thread.
B. If other species of animal for food or parts of particular species of animals for food , where made haram to the Jews outside of what is mentioned in ayat 6146, well, neither you nor I not anyone else, for a certainty, can determine what they were. What we do know for a certainty is that ayat 6146 names the haram things for food and it wasn't because these foodstuffs were haram due to their being fasiiqun/rijisun by their created nature, but as punishment for the transgressions of the Jews.
Again the same ole?!? Yes we can determine them, remember the and on the swine thread?
C. Not so. Ayat 6146, tells us what Allah made haram to the Jews. The following ayat tells us that Jews was allowed to make part of what was haram to them, halal again 350 '(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.
To phrase more clearly in case you didn't get it, please let us know what Jesus uses this authority on in any ayat in the quran so you can stop conjecturing? Does he use it on food? Does he use it on other restrictions? Please post the ayat that tells us what he used it on. Thanks. Remember the same response on the swine thread?
Why would you do that?! How do we discuss food restrictions and not mention the what the the restricted items were? Puzzling.
I would do that because I don't like discussing this demonic animal every single time I post especially when I am talking about something else, so please respect the rules and respect my freedom for posting about something not having to do with PIG AND ITS COUSINS! Thank you in advance for your understanding that would require you to post a response, if having to do with this creature, on the SWINE thread.
Nadia
-
PEACE, S. CARROT,
I replied to you on the, IS SWINE HALAL, thread.
-
You hit it on the nail sister marie lol
I really appreciate this post by you
peace sister
-
Salam,
TH-Fa-RA can be read as thufr = nail, claw in the singular form or thufur which can be considered as the singular or the plural form of thufr.
Let us suppose that TH-Fa-RA means claws in 6146, the birds have also claws/nail like human and several animals.
From 7160 we read that the people of Moses enjoyed delicious bird meat (quail).
The hunting animals like dogs, some birds (falcons), lions are quilified as aljawarih in the light of the Reading (54).
all that have claws are not under the hunting animals/aljawarih.
Looking for your thoughts,
Salam
This my reply to JM
Maybe they have...The accessory, or dew, claws have short conical horn capsules. Those of the pig are quite well developed.
http//137.222.110.150/calnet/Lfoot/page3.htmMaybe?! Well, don't you KNOW? If you are claiming that pig is haram, then you must be certain of your facts. The article you posted begins with the following
Anatomy of the Ox, Sheep, Goat and Pig's Foot
The article, relative the hoof being referred to as a...claw, means that, the hoof of these animals consist of two "dew claws", however, this notwithstanding, the aforementioned animals are said to have hooves not claws. Once again, if these animals truly had claws, then the sheep, goat, and ox, in their entirety, as well as the following, would have been haram to the Jews the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope and the mountain sheep. Jews, both before and after Al-Quran and the Torah, ate these animals. Thus, thufr, in ayat 6146, cannot mean "dew claw"/hoof, likewise, khinzeer, cannot mean the specie of animal pig, otherwise, the goat, ox, and sheep would have had to have been haram before Al-Quran and still be haram today, if thufr means\t "dew claw"/hoof and not simply claw. Is this not correct?
Looking toward your reply.