How Authentic is the Quran?
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Salaam,
Can you quote where I referred to the Torah and Injeel in this Thread. My post is about THE REMINDER
No I can't.
I brought it up because you do believe that Moses was given the Torah and you believe that tauraat equals Torah. In the quran Moses is never mentioned as the one getting the Torah.
Yes exactly, the quran is NOT the ONLY Reminder according to the quran itself and verse 159 says THE REMINDER is guarded NOT the Quran itself or at least not ONLY the quran because THE REMINDER was given to many prophets (according to what is written in the Quran)
What's the beef than that the quran is not al-dhikr, the reminder?
Are the reminders different?
Joe
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Shalom to Everyone,
With due respects to you mquran, Jaxal has given you the names of those threads for you to look at. He deserves an answer. So lets have your refutation that you have done 7 years ago on this.
Im sorry LT, Jaxal hasn't got the decency to answer questions directly, a cornerstone in civilised discussion. Therefore I will not continue. The man expects direct answers but refuses to give them himself. Then he resorts to tauntings, as if I care what anyone thinks on the matter. Well I don't. We can discuss it in private if you like.
Yes exactly, the quran is NOT the ONLY Reminder according to the quran itself and verse 159 says THE REMINDER is guarded NOT the Quran itself or at least not ONLY the quran because THE REMINDER was given to many prophets (according to what is written in the Quran)
Utter rubbish. The word the Quran uses is AZ-zikr, meaning a specific entity. So when al-quraan uses the word, we need to see the Quran itself for proof of what it is. Musa and Harun were also given AL-KITAAB (2/213) and al-furqaan. Al-furqaan is the Quran itself (25/1), so by your (sic) reasoning, Musa and Harun recieved the Quran as well?
As Joe points point, al-quraan is called DHI-DHIKR or posessor of al-zikr. Further to this, al-quraan is called 'tafseelul kitaab' (10/37) or the detailing of 'the book'. Therefore, to assert that Islam needs some other book is clearly denied by al-quraan. Albion has been shown the verses before regarding the completeness of the quran but of course, as in the case of trolls, needs to come back and repeat the story again and again. Its a shame FM practises such liberal policies.
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to assert that Islam needs some other book is clearly denied by al-quraan.
Try reading Muhammads Little Book (very little) sometime...
Ask them "Bring a Book from Allah which is a better guide THAN THESE TWO, I will follow it, if what you say be true!"
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SaLaM mquran
Are you saying that since the day of its revelation and up to this day, nothing in the Quran has been added or deleted?
Peace be upon you Jaxal
Perhaps it is our sloppy terminology which mquran has an issue with. Of course the Quran of God has not changed, but the book commonly called the 'Quran' by Sunnis, Shias and Muslims has.
Yet, this 'Quran' still seems, as far as I can see, to be free of error, erroneous statements etc. Therefore 'it' is unlikely to have been 'altered'
from the original to a large extent.
This is my current view and I think it is a common sense view. The Sunnis and the Shias through their backwardness and hostility to Islam lost the original Quran. This is what I believe 1591 may be referring to.
Roshan
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Try reading Muhammads Little Book (very little) sometime...
You have a problem with size? They have doctors for that too. If not, what has size to do with it?
Ask them "Bring a Book from Allah which is a better guide THAN THESE TWO, I will follow it, if what you say be true!"
Albion, you're very clever, I'll give u that. The number says 28/48-49 but you only quoted 49. Not very Academic, but then I can't expect much from your bible-toting self, can I?
Here's 28/48 for you, since you're now a great believer in al-quraan
But when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject which were formerly sent to Moses? They say "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say "For us, we reject all !
Now let me ask you what are the nine signs sent to Musa, o great believer in al-quraan?
There's 9 altogether.
So when they say '2 sorceries' (sihraan) they were referring to al-haqq,the truth and musa's signs. Were they talking about Torah and Gospel, albion ? We now have our 2 things.
Now we move on to 28/49 Say "Then bring ye a Book from Allah, which is a better guide than either of them, that I may follow it! if ye are truthful!"
So a book from Allah which guides better than al-quraan or the 9 signs of musa. Anywhere Torah, Gospel or its porno stories came in? Perhaps u'd like to import hadith here about Musa's own malaises. Anything to satisfy your craving for filth.
Al-quraan is not the kind of book where miscreants like yourself can find the expression of thier ideas. You need to go to the bible for that.
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Salaamun alaikum Roshan,
Perhaps it is our sloppy terminology which mquran has an issue with. Of course the Quran of God has not changed, but the book commonly called the 'Quran' by Sunnis, Shias and Muslims has.
Roshan, I dont have issues with terminology but with methodology. In Yemen some years ago, archeologists found a manuscript in the back of a mosque a manuscript predating most manuscripts. It gave another version of the Quran. Suddenly, the world was abuzz that the Quran now is fake. Why ? Because of one manuscript.
Lets do a Marty McFly here and go back there. Perhaps there was an Albion like person there who wrote a manuscript and sneakily placed it in the back of the mosque? How do we know all these things UNLESS we did a Marty McFly?
Its the same with all these manuscripts. People use them to justify all sorts of nonsense. Months ago, Ayman wanted to believe that instead of 'the romans were defeated' (30/1) , 'the romans defeated' so what did he do, he went back to the manuscripts. Did he think Allah was so blur that He would leave ambiguity between 'defeated' and 'was defeated'. This is the kind of misdeeds the Quran explicitly refutes when it says it was az-zikr, the one in EMINENCE. No one, not Warsh, not Rashad Khalifa, not any shia author or any Ansarite can never elevate thier versions of the Quran to the level of the Quran we have.
So Roshan, i apologise if this is untrue, but please don't believe in these 'academic methods' or 'literary criticism' nonsense. These theories are suspect in themselves.
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SaLaM mquran
So ur best defence is that its all a conspiracy? . Yes, everything is conspiracy mquran. Everything that ur mind is too small to understand is a conspiracy. Everything that you dont agree with is a conspiracy. roll
Roshan you actually bring up an excellent point.
Of course the Quran of God has not changed, but the book commonly called the 'Quran' by Sunnis, Shias and Muslims has.
If mquran had a clear mind while reading what i said, he would have understood that i dont mean it like complete verses have been re arranged. Rather, letters have been added. I was discussing this with a sunni friend of mine, and he said "why does it matter if a letter is added to the Quran to make it able to pronounce easily?" .I guess i have a problem with that.
In anycase, Im looking for verses from the Quran which say that Quran is a completel book. Can anyone find me such a verse?
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Peace,
I agree with Albion's initial point about the corruption, the book does refer to the reminder and I personally have not seen the reminder being defined as this particular book, as far as I am concerned the Most High can be referring to the continuous signs that unfold in our world and the Universe aswell as the reminders in history (such as the truths of religious books surviving through time).
I personally disagree with the concept of making a book, any book the ONLY source of guidance, it limits an individuals way of thinking and is not neccessarily the best way to live. Combining knowledge from other signs external from books would give a better grounding on things, plus the quran refers to signs external to the book and encourages the reader to seek by himself and to observe his/her surroundings and current situations.
For example there are stories in the book, and wars mentioned where the minority defeats the majority, throughout time this has happened, an individuals that just accepts without witnessing such an example would not be as certain as someone who spots this phenomenom. Plus the people that can relate situations to the book find better guidance and use for the book.
If you just absorb yourself into a text then your gonna become delusional, you need to keep in touch with reality and use the book to guide you through reality not live in a fantasy world that you have not verified and checked with reality. Blindly believing might be fine for some but certainty is always better for me.
Nural
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So ur best defence is that its all a conspiracy? . Yes, everything is conspiracy mquran. Everything that ur mind is too small to understand is a conspiracy. Everything that you dont agree with is a conspiracy.
A very interesting prerequisite in the participation of forums is the ability to read. Jaxal, did you see the word 'conspiracy' in my post? All im saying is, a manuscript found somewhere doesn't prove anything. You think it proves something? Then why don't you tell us, what does a manuscript prove?
Yet you say Moses/Musa wasnt given the Torah?
Again, the inability to read. Is the Quran really so closed to you? Joe quoted 2/53 RIGHT ABOVE your post and you have to ask him? Sigh....
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Its not a matter of a conspiracies at all. Its a matter of where we are and what we're left with. I noticed this some time back when comparing the philosophies of religion and al-quraan. Al-quraan doesn't require you to play Indiana Jones and look for where Ibrahim, Musa and all the other guys are buried. Who CARES? Is God going to ask you 'o mq, at what age did Aisha marry Mohamed?' . No, he gave us the operational manual. Don't find out how your ancestors used windows. YOU read the manual and YOU use it for urself. When the test comes, it'll be on how YOU used windows to exploit the potential of your pc, not how your grandfather used it.
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SaLam Joe and mquran
Joe If moses/musa wasnt given the Torah, then who was?
mquran
Then why don't you tell us, what does a manuscript prove?
How many of you are there? Anyways, you say i cant read, yet you have seemed to miss the whole point of this thread. You say its not enough. Something is in front of your eyes. And you say you dont want to beleive it. You are a true example when God says
GOD seals their minds and their hearing, and their eyes are veiled. They have incurred severe retribution.
Truth is truth. Weather written on a paper, or sent down through Angel Gabriel. Dont be threatened by it. God asks us to accept the truth, even if it is found in the previous scriptures. If the evidence is so weak, then it should be easy to refute. So far, u have just babbled and not given any actual proof that the evidence is wrong becoz of so and so. Simply denying it is no actualy proof. Pur your words where your mouth is and bring actualy evidence to prove it wrong.
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Truth is truth. Weather written on a paper, or sent down through Angel Gabriel. Dont be threatened by it.
So anyone can write anything on a goatskin and it would be truth for you? Marvellous ! very marvellous indeed
God asks us to accept the truth, even if it is found in the previous scriptures.
Where does God tell us to accept 'what is found in PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES' ? Have you actually opened the Quran before?
If the evidence is so weak, then it should be easy to refute. So far, u have just babbled and not given any actual proof that the evidence is wrong becoz of so and so. Simply denying it is no actualy proof. Pur your words where your mouth is and bring actualy evidence to prove it wrong
There's no point in giving evidence to you. You treat the Quran like a piece of excretion anyway. You claim 'quran teaches democracy' and 'god tells us to accept the truth' WITHOUT EVER CHECKING THE BOOK. Maybe you're the new messenger or something. The first messenger who never ever opens the book because it contradicts him at every point.
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Be decent and say you cant prove it wrong. That is much more noble than to rant on and on about how something cannot be accepted when you have nothig to support that.
I can't prove it wrong, you're right but only to people like you WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE BOOK. You prefer to believe the hadith , the source material for this malarkey, so that's fine. You can do whatever you want. I imagine you can't even tell me what my argument is. Care to try? You know what they say about fools keeping thier mouths shut . Want to banish the doubt ? Go on, tell me what my argument is, if you can.