Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi

stillearning

salaam jaxal

Laws regarding running a country and Quran are just 2 different things. The only thing we can be sure of is that Quran is democratic. No questions about that. Even NOW, there isnt even ONE sensible argument against Quran being democratic. Its all personal opinion and personal interpretation
.
In complete agreement.
Regards

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Still-learning,

To continue our discussion, I'd like to ask you

If Allah and his messenger gives you a rule, would you confer with people who didn't believe to get the go-ahead to implement it?

I'd appreciate you answering it if you wish to continue our discussion.

stillearning

Salaam mquran
Please bare with me. It is not always possible ro reply promptly, however I will try to do my best.

If Allah and his messenger gives you a rule, would you confer with people who didn't believe to get the go-ahead to implement it?

I was not aware that the messenger gave his personal rules. I thought the messengers job was to convey Gods message only.
Can you be bit more specific when as to what rules you are referring to?
Any rule has to be implemented by a goverment, legislative body or any other name one cares to give it. In a muslim society that body will be bound by the constraints laid down in the Quran. The individual rules governing enormous amount of issues will be determined by this particular body. As previousouly stated by number of different correpondance there is nothing in the Quran that prohibits this rule Governing body to be elected, selected etc by the majority of the people in any given society.
If we accept that any given society requires rules to to exist then question is who determines these rules. As much as i would like all or the majority of people to follow what appeals to me. Unfortunately I have no right to overule the majority no matter how righteous I feel I am.
Although my understanding of the Quran is that it has very few specific rules but is a moral code for those that choose to follow it. Even leaving this arguement aside let us assume that the Quran contains all the rules necessary to enable functioning of a given society, one cannot force the majority if they do not wish to live by these rules.
One simple question- in which ever society you live, how would you form a body or system which would implement the rules according to the messenger and Allah as you have stated.
Regards

ADIL

I haven?t read all replies to this topic but here is a portion of my post from another forum which likewise discussed this issue from social perspective

Democracy lives in the heart of civil society where there is the presence of democratic culture. If you don?t have the presence of democratic culture, you should forget about democracy. Democratic culture implies tolerance, the willingness of the person to accept divergent political, economic, cultural and religious views. Democracy cannot flourish in a society steeped in fanaticism, bigotry, dogmatism and obscurantism. Democratic culture leads to the formation of civil society which then paves the way for various groups, clubs, unions, parties, associations to come together to provide a buffer between the State and the citizen.

The Western origin of the modern concept of democracy begins with ?the Social Contract? by Jean Jacques Rousseau 1692. According to him ?Human beings must be made citizens before they can be made men; but in order that they may be citizens, government must give liberty under law, must provide for material welfare and remove gross inequality distribution of wealth.? The social contract in essence paves the way between the individual and community so the individual can give and receive such rights in return. The community is instead governed by the General Will of its member, which enjoys the status of a sovereign and all civil laws flow from the General Will.

Jaxal

SaLaM

Along with stillearning's reply, i will add that a democratic society give the induvidual the freedom to excercise whatever religion it is they follow. Be it christianity, judaism, islam, budhism and whatnot. So the laws implemented by a true democratic govt cannot simply be for just ONE group of people. Take UK for example. Its a pretty much democratic society. It also gives me the right to excercise my islamic faith. It would be hard for me to live in a society where christian beliefs were imposed onto me. That i had to follow some ritual in the bible if i am to live in this country.

The Quran has given an excellet understanding of what is wrong and right. Killing innocent is wrong. Cheating on your spous is wrong. Taking money from orpahns is wrong. So on and so forth. But implementing these ideas in a society is completely different than they are in the Quran. Hence, following the Quran and implementing a democratic system are just completely different.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Stilllearning,

Salaam mquran
Please bare with me. It is not always possible ro reply promptly, however I will try to do my best.

Don't worry about it. We're here to learn rather than to massage our egos. As long we discuss with civility and honesty. Take your time.

If Allah and his messenger gives you a rule, would you confer with people who didn't believe to get the go-ahead to implement it?

I was not aware that the messenger gave his personal rules. I thought the messengers job was to convey Gods message only.

Yes, that's precisely what I meant. If the messenger commanded us to do something from al-quraan, should we confer with non-believers first (that being the definition of democracy).

Can you be bit more specific when as to what rules you are referring to?
Any rule has to be implemented by a goverment, legislative body or any other name one cares to give it. In a muslim society that body will be bound by the constraints laid down in the Quran. The individual rules governing enormous amount of issues will be determined by this particular body. As previousouly stated by number of different correpondance there is nothing in the Quran that prohibits this rule Governing body to be elected, selected etc by the majority of the people in any given society.
If we accept that any given society requires rules to to exist then question is who determines these rules. As much as i would like all or the majority of people to follow what appeals to me. Unfortunately I have no right to overule the majority no matter how righteous I feel I am.

Ok. If the majority of people in this muslim society tells u 'we think the death penalty is too harsh', would you rescind the punishment to please them?

Although my understanding of the Quran is that it has very few specific rules but is a moral code for those that choose to follow it. Even leaving this arguement aside let us assume that the Quran contains all the rules necessary to enable functioning of a given society, one cannot force the majority if they do not wish to live by these rules.

Ok. What if a person killed another person in your domain and said 'i dont believe in islam, you therefore cannot judge me with the quran. What would your response me.

One simple question- in which ever society you live, how would you form a body or system which would implement the rules according to the messenger and Allah as you have stated.
Regards

Im currently living in a western secular domain. I have taken a social contract to abide by the laws here. Therefore, I can only be as Muslim as the laws allow me, for example, I could help the poor and orphans. However, if a messenger comes, I'd be happy to follow his program to establish al-madeenah.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Adil,

Would you mind defining 'democracy' for me?

unknownuser

Any rule has to be implemented by a goverment, legislative body or any other name one cares to give it. In a muslim society that body will be bound by the constraints laid down in the Quran.

Then there can be no DEMOCRACY. In a DEMOCRACY there are no such constraints. It is the PEOPLE that make the LAWS. The Laws are not derived or constrained by a IMMUATABLE DIVINE LAW.

Regards,

stillearning

Salaam mquran

We're here to learn rather than to massage our egos. As long we discuss with civility and honesty.

Agree.

Yes, that's precisely what I meant. If the messenger commanded us to do something from al-quraan, should we confer with non-believers first (that being the definition of democracy).

I must admit that is definition of democracy i have not come across before. Messanger brought you the Quran you can follow it according to your understanding, why do you have to confer with anybody if you do not wish to do so. You do not have to confer with anybody about being a honest, generous, compassionate person.
Please do not confuse moral guidance with specific rules needed to govern a society, country state etc.
I will state the very obvious again A state, society etc requires thousands, if not millions of rule, to function. These rules are formulated and implemented by some form of a governing system. These sytems to date have include monarchy, military dictatorship, so called communist system, democracy and others. The Quran clearly states you are given intelligence do not accept anything which yo cannot verify for yourself. Which system your intelligence tells you is appropriate is a decision for yourself-do not try to find it in the Quran because it simply does not exist.
According to the Quran there is no compulsion in religion and yet there are many, like yourself, who are trying to prove that the Quran has has compulsive governing system.

Ok. If the majority of people in this muslim society tells u 'we think the death penalty is too harsh', would you rescind the punishment to please them?

As I have stated previousouly that you cannot force a society to follow the Quran if it does not wish to do so. There is no compulsion in religion.
Being for or against the death penalty neither makes you for or against democracy.

Ok. What if a person killed another person in your domain and said 'i dont believe in islam, you therefore cannot judge me with the quran. What would your response me.

I am afraid it is another of your points which I fail to understand. I do not know of any Quranic, non Quranic anti Quranic society where murder of another person is condoned. Your example is the exact reason why we need system to enable justice to prevail. You cannot excuse a crime just because individual claims to have specific belief can you imagine the chaos in a planet of 6 billion people.

Im currently living in a western secular domain. I have taken a social contract to abide by the laws here. Therefore, I can only be as Muslim as the laws allow me, for example, I could help the poor and orphans. However, if a messenger comes, I'd be happy to follow his program to establish al-madeenah.

Well i have not signed any social contract or any one else that I know has in relation to obeying specific laws. All I know is that I get my chance every few years to participate in choosing a goverment which will hopefully form rules and regulation which will be hopefully will be predisposed to my way of thinking. Compared to any other form of governing system it is probably the best system that allows me to practice Islam the way I understand it. Without freedom of mind you cannot have Islam and the best system which allows the most freedom is democracy. If a better system arises the I will gladly change my views.
I dont understand your messenger system at all.You did not give an answer when the last messenger was. According to my understnadin it was over 1400 years ago- that is lot of generation who will need rules and laws cannot have choas waiting for your system to come into being.

To lottree

Then there can be no DEMOCRACY. In a DEMOCRACY there are no such constraints. It is the PEOPLE that make the LAWS. The Laws are not derived or constrained by a IMMUATABLE DIVINE LAW.

If nit picking was an occupation you would be the world leader.
You started with an arguement that the Quran is anti democratic rather than prove your point you have resorted to misinterpting others quotes to justify your patently miguided and misinformed view. Give us your own reasons why you think Quran is anti democratic do not keep quoting other people as it appears to be a very poorly formulated opinion. Every society, system works with certain constraints it is often called a constitution which can be in written or unwritten form. Every society works within certain moral boundaries you can call them constraints, moral values, prejudices but they exist and will continue to exist. All the Quran does is provide you with moral boundries i.e Murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, opperssion of theweak is wrong, helping the weak and needy is good etc.

Regards

unknownuser

Then there can be no DEMOCRACY. In a DEMOCRACY there are no such constraints. It is the PEOPLE that make the LAWS. The Laws are not derived or constrained by a IMMUATABLE DIVINE LAW.

Every society, system works with certain constraints it is often called a constitution which can be in written or unwritten form.

The Constitution itself is DECIDED BY THE PEOPLE in a DEMOCRACY. And just as constitution can be made so it can be unmade this is contrary to the DIVINE LAW which is immutable for all time...

Regards,

stillearning

The Constitution itself is DECIDED BY THE PEOPLE in a DEMOCRACY. And just as constitution can be made so it can be unmade this is contrary to the DIVINE LAW which is immutable for all time...

How about reading the rest of what i wrote. Heard of the phrase taken out of context!

unknownuser

The Constitution itself is DECIDED BY THE PEOPLE in a DEMOCRACY. And just as constitution can be made so it can be unmade this is contrary to the DIVINE LAW which is immutable for all time...

How about reading the rest of what i wrote. Heard of the phrase taken out of context!

Above is the crux of the matter....rest of your post is extraneous words...

For example - Quran proscribes lashings for adultery. You can't delegislate this DIVINE LAW. But in DEMOCRACY you can...

Regards,

stillearning

As I have stated previousouly that you cannot force a society to follow the Quran if it does not wish to do so. There is no compulsion in religion.

Above is what I also wrote. If people wish to choose a system which will follow the guidance given by the Quran and implement 100 lashes as advocated that is their choice, it is known as democracy. If on the other hand they decide thay do not wish to follow that path and select a system which does not advocate the above punishment they are free to do so, as there is no compulsion. This is also known as democracy.
In democracy you are given choices, sometimes very limited, and you are free to choose. The Quran gives you that choice you can either accept it and be a muslim or you are free to reject it.
Regards

Jaxal

SaLaM LT

For example - Quran proscribes lashings for adultery. You can't delegislate this DIVINE LAW. But in DEMOCRACY you can

If you were a christian, and you cheated on your husband how would you feel if i lashed you becoz it is in the Quran? Quran advocates democracy. That is it. It doesnt lay down the rules and laws and regulations for a country to take on. Quran is not a book of laws and regulations. Its a book of guidence. Or do you thik Saudi is a country according to Quran? Or how about Iran? You agree with the way they run their country?

unknownuser

SaLaM LT

For example - Quran proscribes lashings for adultery. You can't delegislate this DIVINE LAW. But in DEMOCRACY you can

Quran advocates democracy.

How can it? Democracy means people making the laws this will go against the IMMUATABLE DIVINE LAW...therefore why would quran advacate democracy when democracy will UNDERMINE the DIVINE law... it does not make sense....

Regards,

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Still-learning,

I must admit that is definition of democracy i have not come across before. Messanger brought you the Quran you can follow it according to your understanding, why do you have to confer with anybody if you do not wish to do so. You do not have to confer with anybody about being a honest, generous, compassionate person.

I'm not saying you should confer at all. Democracy however requires you to do so. To me, the messenger says and I obey , I have no qualms in the matter (33/36).

The messenger tells us more things than being an honest, genernous and compassionate person though. He tells us to stand up for those who are oppressed (4/75) but in a democracy, we may not be allowed to do so.

This is what im getting at, you see. Is it ok to disobey the messenger if the polity which you live in says 'no, we vote you down'

Please do not confuse moral guidance with specific rules needed to govern a society, country state etc.
I will state the very obvious again A state, society etc requires thousands, if not millions of rule, to function. These rules are formulated and implemented by some form of a governing system. These sytems to date have include monarchy, military dictatorship, so called communist system, democracy and others. The Quran clearly states you are given intelligence do not accept anything which yo cannot verify for yourself. Which system your intelligence tells you is appropriate is a decision for yourself-do not try to find it in the Quran because it simply does not exist.

Sorry brother, but al-quraan never calls itself a 'moral guidance'. The word 'moral' (Arabic akhlaaq) does not exist in al-quraan. Al-quraan rather speaks of taqwaa, mindfulness of Allah and His laws.

I am surprised that you limit al-quraan to moral guidance. Al-quraan clearly gives laws for given situations

public acts of debauchery (24/2)
sedition and mischief (5/33)
stealing (5/38 )
murder (2/17

This is not 'moral guidance' in the normative sense. These are clear hard and fast rules.

As I have stated previousouly that you cannot force a society to follow the Quran if it does not wish to do so. There is no compulsion in religion.

So a person can, in an islamic domain, commit murder and say 'well, where i come from, we just jail murderers for 10 years and thats my deen and u cant force islam on me'. How would you respond to this guy?

Being for or against the death penalty neither makes you for or against democracy.

Per se, you' right.

I am afraid it is another of your points which I fail to understand. I do not know of any Quranic, non Quranic anti Quranic society where murder of another person is condoned. Your example is the exact reason why we need system to enable justice to prevail. You cannot excuse a crime just because individual claims to have specific belief can you imagine the chaos in a planet of 6 billion people.

No, murder isn't condoned, you're right. The problem is, instead of the ahl (people connected to) of the victims having the right of punishment, it is the democracy which ultimately decides on the punishment. Politicians who are hungry for votes will follow the majority's whims and therefore limit the right of the victim's ahl.

If someone killed my brother and is convicted, its not I who has the right to decide his fate but a person not connected to him at all. THis is unquranic but currently its going on due to a democracy.

And you agree that, just because an individual says that 'i dont believe murder is wrong', this doesn't excuse him. Well, isn't this compulsion then? Are you not forcing the guy to accept your values by forcing him to accept your punishment for murder?

Well i have not signed any social contract or any one else that I know has in relation to obeying specific laws. All I know is that I get my chance every few years to participate in choosing a goverment which will hopefully form rules and regulation which will be hopefully will be predisposed to my way of thinking. Compared to any other form of governing system it is probably the best system that allows me to practice Islam the way I understand it. Without freedom of mind you cannot have Islam and the best system which allows the most freedom is democracy. If a better system arises the I will gladly change my views.
I dont understand your messenger system at all.You did not give an answer when the last messenger was. According to my understnadin it was over 1400 years ago- that is lot of generation who will need rules and laws cannot have choas waiting for your system to come into being.

You sign it by being born in a western society. They signed it for you. I agree that you can participate in choosing a government, but to hope that they will be predisposed to your way of thinking is futile. The messengers of god never went around trying to win votes. What they did was, established the system as much as they possibly could and left the rest to Allah. No democratic process was inolved.

I don't believe in last messengers. I believe a messenger is one under inspiration who practises the book, gives information about the book and faciliates growth. He's also the leader of the believers.

many thanks for this stimulating discussion.

stillearning

Salaam mquran

Please be patient. I will probably not be able to respond for another week. Time is very limited at present.
Salaam

Jaxal

SaLaM LT

How can it?

This is what happens when you dont read the previous replies wink . So far neither you or mquran or anyone for that matter has not been able to prove that Quran is anti democratic except a few excuses here and a few excuses there. Once again, if you are against democracy, live in saudi or iran for a month or two to see what an anti democratic country is like and tell me if you think Quran is anti democratic wink

mquran

Salaam Stillearning,

Please be patient. I will probably not be able to respond for another week. Time is very limited at present

That's no problem at all. The fact that you're actually able to understand what a discussion is (i.e. an exchange of information relevant to the said point as opposed to a cheerleading contest for people who never open the text) is blessing enough. Take all the time you need and I look forward to a nice civilised discussion. You have given me much food for thought.

unknownuser

SaLaM LT

How can it?

This is what happens when you dont read the previous replies

No chap. I think you don't just get it do you? DIVINE LAW - immutable. Human laws changeable.

Regards,