Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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Salaam Ali Omar,
Yes, I agree, there has to be a leader in a community. However, the leaders task is to serve the community, not to rule it.
The leader serves Allah by helping the community to actualise its potential through righteous rule, in my view.
The basic laws, and codes of conduct, are laid down by the one and only ruler, or what we call God.
All chosen leaders are responsible for implementing these lawsYes, these 'ahkaam' or laws of Allah are implemented by his servants. For example, as his servant now, even without any power in the land, we try to help people. However, certain ahkaam necessitate acquistion of power first, like the zinaa punishement.
So, I believe we need guidance to run a community, but we do not find a detailed guidance in any book, whether from God or humans. However, we may find some pointers here and there, and we find basic laws in the words of God and in the other signs of God, in the world around us
The thing is, hukmullah, God's laws penetrates all aspects of our existence. For example, while God didn't tell you how fast you can drive, He did tell you the value of human life. So you can adjust accordingly. That's on a personal level. When the Islamic dominion comes, the rasul will allocate responsibility to believers according to thier level of expertise.
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SaLaM LT
LT you old chap, unlike you, I have the COURTESY to give a direct simple answer. So, you answer my question. and i will GLADLY answer yours.... old chap wink
If you are able to answer my question then you able to answer your own question. The crux of the matter is DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS vs MAN MADE LAWS IN A DEMOCRACY. In a democratic government people don't look in the scripture for laws - they create the laws themselves to regulate how the society operates. You can't have DEMOCRACY and DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS. You have to choose one Jaxal. And you have chosen to ignore the DIVINE DECREES...
Regards,
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And you have chosen to ignore the fact that Quran , a changed and altered book on which you want to base the running of the whole country, which is not possible in the first place, , is NOT a guide to how to run a country. So boo hoo.. old chap wink
Jaxal you either accept QURAN AS DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW OF GOD or you don't. But soon as you do then it will be INCOMPATIBLE with DEMOCRACY...because DEMOCRACY allows the people to make the laws and change them...that is the crux of the matter.
We got there in the end...didn't we Jaxal wink
Regards,
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We got there in the end...didn't we Jaxal
No we didnt
Oh well....I blame myself for trying so hard wink
Regards,
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Hi Nabi,
Thanks for the Link.
are there any verses in Quran where God mentions future prophets arriving after prophet Mohammed?
since there is a debate on 'seal of the prophets' of 3340, where else according to u are future prophets mentioned in Quran?
God surely wouldnt have missed mentioning if thats the case.Take the example of the firawn where the doubt of a rasool being sent after a previous one lurked . I believe there will be more rusul/envoys even though there may be a cessation or abatement .
4026 Said Pharaoh "Leave me to slay Moses; and let him call on his Lord! What I fear is lest he should change your religion, or lest he should cause mischief to appear in the land!"
4027 Moses said "I have indeed called upon my Lord and your Lord (for protection) from every arrogant one who believes not in the Day of Account!"
4028 A believer, a man from among the people of Pharaoh, who had concealed his faith, said "Will ye slay a man because he says, 'My Lord is Allah.?- when he has indeed come to you with Clear (Signs) from your Lord? and if he be a liar, on him is (the sin of) his lie but, if he is telling the Truth, then will fall on you something of the (calamity) of which he warns you Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies!
4029 "O my People! Yours is the dominion this day Ye have the upper hand in the land but who will help us from the Punishment of Allah, should it befall us?" Pharaoh said "I but point out to you that which I see (myself); Nor do I guide you but to the Path of Right!"
4030 Then said the man who believed "O my people! Truly I do fear for you something like the Day (of disaster) of the Confederates (in sin)!-
4031 "Something like the fate of the People of Noah, the 'Ad, and the Thamud, and those who came after them but Allah never wishes injustice to his Servants.
4032 "And O my people! I fear for you a Day when there will be Mutual calling (and wailing),-
4033 "A Day when ye shall turn your backs and flee No defender shall ye have from Allah. Any whom Allah leaves to stray, there is none to guide...
4034 "And to you there came Joseph in times gone by, with Clear Signs, but ye ceased not to doubt of the (Mission) for which he had come At length, when he died, ye said 'No apostle will Allah send after him.' thus doth Allah leave to stray such as transgress and live in doubt,-IN 434 Allah is clearly telling about the history before Prophet Mohammed.
518 (Both) the Jews and the Christians say "We are sons of Allah, and his beloved." Say "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"
519 O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our apostles, lest ye should say "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from evil)" But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil). And Allah hath power over all things.
520 Remember Moses said to his people "O my people! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you, when He produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the peoples.In these verses, Allah is referring to the past and to the people during the time of Prophet Mohammed.
where is the mention of future prophets?
And if there were more prophets to come to govern mankind from time to time, where are the prophets who must have come from 570AD to 2005?
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HI Mquran, Nabi,
The thing is, hukmullah, God's laws penetrates all aspects of our existence. For example, while God didn't tell you how fast you can drive, He did tell you the value of human life. So you can adjust accordingly.
Thats what we are all doing. Thats what democracy is all about or atleast meant to be. We take guidance from Quran. we take the principles of righteousness, justice, honesty, sincereity, humility etc from God's message and implement these with a set of rules that can safeguard these values to the best in today's society.
Quran is not meant to spoon feed us about everything. its meant to guide.
And Quran is not an instruction manual of 'how to run a country' or how to ride a car' etc. In Quran, Allah tells us to strive for knowledge, wisdom and values and uphold them.
And Mquran, no offence meant, but Quran is not a dictionary to find definitions of all words. this is not the purpose of Quran. Its there to guide us.
230 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said "I know what ye know not."
So, u see Allah doesnt think Man is only capable of Mischief. we are capable of goodness and wisdom too and we need to strive for it.
And Lotetree, Nobody is refusing divine law. we are keen to safeguard the values with a system that would best uphold the values. and man made laws are not necessarily antonyms for divine laws. and if u look at man made laws, they are not made by mere whim and fancy. There are cohort studies etc and these laws are updated to yield the best outcome. so, they are always reviewed over and over.
Jaxal, I wont say Quran is corrupted. No proof of that.And God has said He would safeguard the Quran Himself. agreed, interpretations have varied.
But yeah, It sure is not an instruction manual, nor is it a dictionary etc. Its meant to make people think and do the right thing.
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peace
And Quran is not an instruction manual of 'how to run a country' or how to ride a car' etc. In Quran, Allah tells us to strive for knowledge, wisdom and values and uphold them.
peace to you too
The thing is, hukmullah, God's laws penetrates all aspects of our existence. For example, while God didn't tell you how fast you can drive, He did tell you the value of human life. So you can adjust accordingly.
And what exactly is accordingly and who decides this?
That's on a personal level. When the Islamic dominion comes, the rasul will allocate responsibility to believers according to thier level of expertise
What happens until your rasul comes i.e what about today!
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salaam
And if there were more prophets to come to govern mankind from time to time, where are the prophets who must have come from 570AD to 2005
List of names would be sufficent!
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Peace,
are there any verses in Quran where God mentions future prophets arriving after prophet Mohammed?
You mean prophecies? I doubt it. Allah sends rusul and nabiyeen and never says that He will stop. Tis' the sunnah of Allah.
since there is a debate on 'seal of the prophets' of 3340, where else according to u are future prophets mentioned in Quran?
Again, none that I know of.
God surely wouldnt have missed mentioning if thats the case.
Of course not. Allah has already told us that He sends nabiyeen and rusul.
IN 434 Allah is clearly telling about the history before Prophet Mohammed.
Ah, I think I see where your interpretations may lie. Thus you shall not understand where I am coming from. Read the narrative of Moses if you must, all of it. The lessons for our guidance will be given therein. Maybe you will be able to grasp these lessons and then see where I have come from.
If you take it as a historical account than think of the significance of the belief of the rejectors and how that should waylay you from acting upon the same mistakes.
where is the mention of future prophets?
Again, Allah has said that He sends nabiyeen and rusul. Allah never says that this will stop.
Joe
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Salaamun alaikum PM,
IN 434 Allah is clearly telling about the history before Prophet Mohammed
PM, how is al-quraan to be a book of guidance if its about stories of the past? Al-quraan categorically denies that its tales of the ancients (83/17) and that it a mentioning of us (21/10). The sunna of Allah doesn't change and so , despite people saying there are no more messengers, messengers will keep coming.
And if there were more prophets to come to govern mankind from time to time, where are the prophets who must have come from 570AD to 2005?
This is going into the field of history which can be distorted. We are to focus on our situation, here and now.
Thats what we are all doing. Thats what democracy is all about or atleast meant to be. We take guidance from Quran. we take the principles of righteousness, justice, honesty, sincereity, humility etc from God's message and implement these with a set of rules that can safeguard these values to the best in today's society.
In a democracy, tacit approval must be obtained from the majority. Would you care to seek the approval of humankind before serving Allah, brother?
And Quran is not an instruction manual of 'how to run a country' or how to ride a car' etc. In Quran, Allah tells us to strive for knowledge, wisdom and values and uphold them.
al-quraan may not tell you what to call an instution, but certainly it tells you the ahkaam regarding institutions. For example, it tells you that the majority of people arent on sabeelilllah. Therefore, people who believe cannot trust them.
And Mquran, no offence meant, but Quran is not a dictionary to find definitions of all words. this is not the purpose of Quran. Its there to guide
Can you please tell me how al-quraan guides you if you don't know the meaning of its words? Al-quraan is in a set language and also offers principles of interpretation. And no offense taken.
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Stillearning, if you'll answer this question first, I will address your point. I believe in reciprocity in discussions. Thank you
Excellent. Now the question, WHY is it ok to compel others to follow your law? Please read the operative word...WHY is it ok if they don't believe in it? Remember, in a democracy, FREEDOM is paramount. FREEDOM.
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SaLaM PM
Jaxal, I wont say Quran is corrupted. No proof of that.And God has said He would safeguard the Quran Himself. agreed, interpretations have varied.
Sorry PM, but it HAS been altered and changed. Even if 1 letter has been added (which is not the case but MANY letters have been added), it makes the book corrupted. Quran has been changed and altered. It IS corrupted.
LT
Oh well....I blame myself for trying so hard
No. Blame yourself for trying so hard and still failing to grasp a simple sentence... old chap wink
The main argument argument that is being repeated over and over and over , without any basis what so ever, is that Allah sends the ruler to us. WE dont choose them. So... another question which i know will go unanswered but that is ok becoz it only cements the case against such absurdity that Quran is ant- democratic
In the last 1400 years, how many messengers have come who ruled their kingdom according to the Quran?
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Hi Nabi,
You mean prophecies? I doubt it. Allah sends rusul and nabiyeen and never says that He will stop. Tis' the sunnah of Allah.
ok, where in Quran does Allah mention that more rusul/nabiyen are to come after prophet Mohammed from time to time, to govern the people on earth?
If its not mentioned, are u saying u r making an Assumption urself, becoz u dont agree on 'seal of the prophets' or Allah saying He had perfected the religion and He had completed His favour etc.
so, is 'more nabi/rusul to come' ur assumption?
And where are the prophets from 570 AD TO 2005 who should have come to the givern people on earth? absentees?
Peace Nabi, i just dont see it.Allah has already told us that He sends nabiyeen and rusul.
Where exactly has He said that?That more nabis/rusuls will come from time to time after prophet Mohammed? And who were the ones who supposedly came to govern from 570 AD to 2005?
If you take it as a historical account than think of the significance of the belief of the rejectors and how that should waylay you from acting upon the same mistakes.
What are u talking about? where is the prophet/nabi now that i need to accept? Are u saying I should accept a non exsistent prophet?
If Allah does send a prophet today or in future, it will be very evident and the messenger will have clear signs. But Allah has never mentioned in Quran that there are more messengers to come where as, there was mention of arrival of specific prophets in the earlier guidances such as torah, gospel etc and they came. -
Hi Mquran,
PM, how is al-quraan to be a book of guidance if its about stories of the past? Al-quraan categorically denies that its tales of the ancients (83/17) and that it a mentioning of us (21/10). The sunna of Allah doesn't change and so , despite people saying there are no more messengers, messengers will keep coming
In Quran, Allah narates the past, the present(570 AD), The future, and some general messages such as values etc. One can not single out a verse where Allah is narrating the past and apply it to the 'now'. We should see things as they are, and not how we want to see them.
Again, is that an assumption made by you that messengers will keep coming? coz Allah doesnt seem to have mentioned so in Quran.And if there were more prophets to come to govern mankind from time to time, where are the prophets who must have come from 570AD to 2005?
This is going into the field of history which can be distorted. We are to focus on our situation, here and now.
What is 'going into the field of history'? U claimed that Allah would send messengers to govern people from time to time. All I asked was, Where were the messengers who were supposed to arrive between 570 AD AND 2005? And since Quran was revealed in 570 AD, Are u saying it is history and We should not focus on it too and instead discuss 'here and now'?
Thats what we are all doing. Thats what democracy is all about or atleast meant to be. We take guidance from Quran. we take the principles of righteousness, justice, honesty, sincereity, humility etc from God's message and implement these with a set of rules that can safeguard these values to the best in today's society.
In a democracy, tacit approval must be obtained from the majority. Would you care to seek the approval of humankind before serving Allah, brother?
yes, approval from majority is required. And that apparently is to safeguard the very same principles mentioned in Quran such as honesty, justice, righteousness, humility, safety, etc. And are u saying the rules mentioned in the Quran are not for the betterment of mankind? If they are, then we are working on the same goal, arent we?
And Quran is not an instruction manual of 'how to run a country' or how to ride a car' etc. In Quran, Allah tells us to strive for knowledge, wisdom and values and uphold them.
al-quraan may not tell you what to call an instution, but certainly it tells you the ahkaam regarding institutions. For example, it tells you that the majority of people arent on sabeelilllah. Therefore, people who believe cannot trust them.
Inappropriate answer
And Mquran, no offence meant, but Quran is not a dictionary to find definitions of all words. this is not the purpose of Quran. Its there to guide
Can you please tell me how al-quraan guides you if you don't know the meaning of its words? Al-quraan is in a set language and also offers principles of interpretation. And no offense taken.
Quran guides me by giving the message, by giving me the truth, by giving the faith , by giving me the strength to uphold the values mentioned in Quran. In Quran Allah tells us to strive to attain wisdom, knowledge and uphold good values. Thats how it guides me. And no, its purpose is not to be a dictionary. Its not there to spoonfeed us. Its there to guide.
And yeah, no more of this discussion on future messengers for me, coz its pointless.
anyways, Peace.
May Allah guide us all unto the right path and truth! -
Peace,
ok, where in Quran does Allah mention that more rusul/nabiyen are to come after prophet Mohammed from time to time, to govern the people on earth?
You're not getting me at all. You should be able to show that Allah said that he will stop sending rusul and nabiyeen and that there is a final one.
If its not mentioned, are u saying u r making an Assumption urself, becoz u dont agree on 'seal of the prophets' or Allah saying he had perfected the religion and He had completed His favour etc.
It does not need to be mentioned that more rusul will come because Allah has not said that He is stopping them from coming.
Even if you take khatem to mean seal, you must understand that a seal can be popped. Again I ask that you read the link provided below.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3000
so, is 'more nabi/rusul to come' ur assumption?
In my opinion yes, there will be more.
And where are the prophets from 570 AD TO 2005 who should have come to the givern people on earth? absentees?
I'm not sure who they are and when they may have come. Al-quran presents to us every aspect pertaining to the rasool that we should know. I do not see the need to worry about which rasool came at what time and making a list of names. As Jibreel has mentioned "And rusul we have mentioned to thee before and rusul We have not mentioned to thee."
Peace Nabi, i just dont see it.
You do not need to see it for it to be as such.
Where exactly has He said that?That more nabis/rusuls will come from time to time after prophet Mohammed?
There are many ayatin stating this. Allah sends rusul and has not said that He will stop.
What are u talking about?
I'm talking about how the rejectors believed that God will not send other rusul. From them you should derive a lesson.
where is the prophet/nabi now that i need to accept?
I do not know.
You do not need to accept or believe in such a nabiy or rasool should he appear .
If Allah does send a prophet today or in future, it will be very evident and the messenger will have clear signs.
Please describe to me these bayyinat you will know of? Could you explain your view on ayatin 2351-52?
Joe
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Peace PM.
In Quran, Allah narates the past, the present(570 AD), The future, and some general messages such as values etc. One can not single out a verse where Allah is narrating the past and apply it to the 'now'. We should see things as they are, and not how we want to see them.
Again, is that an assumption made by you that messengers will keep coming? coz Allah doesnt seem to have mentioned so in Quran.Well, therein lies the difference in our world-views. You believe 'the present' is 570AD (actually, it should 610-632AD, the time Muhammad ibn Abdullah historically recieved revelation to his death) whereas I don't see evidence of that in al-quraan at all. Al-quraan is about now. It uses naaba'ul ghaib (unseen higher news) to explain to us our own situation. But hey-ho, that's how you look at it, its cool.
What is 'going into the field of history'? U claimed that Allah would send messengers to govern people from time to time. All I asked was, Where were the messengers who were supposed to arrive between 570 AD AND 2005? And since Quran was revealed in 570 AD, Are u saying it is history and We should not focus on it too and instead discuss 'here and now'?
I understand what you're asking but I live in the present. I don't believe in going into historical reports. For all I know, Bahaullah, Guru Nanak and Meister Eckhardt could have been rusul. But I'm not going to assert that because history is not proof for me and nor is it for al-quraan.
yes, approval from majority is required. And that apparently is to safeguard the very same principles mentioned in Quran such as honesty, justice, righteousness, humility, safety, etc.
Ah i see. Well, I don't see it that way. I will serve Allah to the best of my ability regardless of what humankind thinks.
And are u saying the rules mentioned in the Quran are not for the betterment of mankind? If they are, then we are working on the same goal, arent we?
Ahkaam of Allah are there for human evolution, but the majority of HUMANKIND, according to ALLAH, are against his path. Therefore, to seek THIER approval is pointless, even kufr. Thier idea of betterment is different from al-quraan's idea.
And Quran is not an instruction manual of 'how to run a country' or how to ride a car' etc. In Quran, Allah tells us to strive for knowledge, wisdom and values and uphold them.
al-quraan may not tell you what to call an instution, but certainly it tells you the ahkaam regarding institutions. For example, it tells you that the majority of people arent on sabeelilllah. Therefore, people who believe cannot trust them.
Inappropriate answer
Would you kindly elaborate on that?
Quran guides me by giving the message, by giving me the truth, by giving the faith , by giving me the strength to uphold the values mentioned in Quran. In Quran Allah tells us to strive to attain wisdom, knowledge and uphold good values. Thats how it guides me. And no, its purpose is not to be a dictionary. Its not there to spoonfeed us. Its there to guide.
How does it give you the truth? If you read it without understanding any Arabic, what does it give you? If you read the word 'salaat' as prayer, would the message be the same?
How does al-quraan guide if you don't know the words?!
And yeah, no more of this discussion on future messengers for me, coz its pointless.
anyways, Peace.I respect your decision. peace
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Peace Mquran,
Well, therein lies the difference in our world-views. You believe 'the present' is 570AD (actually, it should 610-632AD, the time Muhammad ibn Abdullah historically recieved revelation to his death) whereas I don't see evidence of that in al-quraan at all. Al-quraan is about now. It uses naaba'ul ghaib (unseen higher news) to explain to us our own situation. But hey-ho, that's how you look at it, its cool.
Some of examples of Allah adressing the present(you are right 610-623 AD . the prophet was born on 570 AD)
519 O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our apostles, lest ye should say "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from evil)" But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil). And Allah hath power over all things.
7184 Do they not reflect? Their companion is not seized with madness he is but a perspicuous warner.
7188 Say "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith."
3446 Say "I do admonish you on one point that ye do stand up before Allah,- (It may be) in pairs, or (it may be) singly,- and reflect (within yourselves) your Companion is not possessed he is no less than a warner to you, in face of a terrible Penalty."
3447 Say "No reward do I ask of you it is (all) in your interest my reward is only due from Allah. And He is witness to all things."
The above verses are clearly adressed to prophet Mohammed telling him, what to tell the people of then.
I did say some of the messages apply in a general sense to mankind in general.I understand what you're asking but I live in the present. I don't believe in going into historical reports. For all I know, Bahaullah, Guru Nanak and Meister Eckhardt could have been rusul. But I'm not going to assert that because history is not proof for me and nor is it for al-quraan.
I live in the present too. But since we are talking of a revealation that arrived in 610-623 AD and since u r predicting messengers would keep coming from time to time to govern people,its only natural that i ask who they were who came after 623 AD.
Are u saying messengers of Allah dont need to uphold Quran and govern people? If no, Guru Nanak and Meister Eckhardt dont seem to have.Nor have they followed the Rules mentioned in Quran. But didnt u say messengers will govern people by Quranic rules and ways?
I think they were divine good people coz they understood the true divine message.Ahkaam of Allah are there for human evolution, but the majority of HUMANKIND, according to ALLAH, are against his path. Therefore, to seek THIER approval is pointless, even kufr. Thier idea of betterment is different from al-quraan's idea.
Which system of democracy says its correct to be dishonest, to steal, to murder, to comit adultery, to rape etc?
Like u are, I am talking of the majority of the mankind who insist on good human values. Is that non-Quranic way? How are they against Allah's path when the majority are saying all that is wrong and should be stopped with adequate rules and regulations?Quran guides me by giving the message, by giving me the truth, by giving the faith , by giving me the strength to uphold the values mentioned in Quran. In Quran Allah tells us to strive to attain wisdom, knowledge and uphold good values. Thats how it guides me. And no, its purpose is not to be a dictionary. Its not there to spoonfeed us. Its there to guide.
How does it give you the truth? If you read it without understanding any Arabic, what does it give you? If you read the word 'salaat' as prayer, would the message be the same?
How does al-quraan guide if you don't know the words?!Knowing Quran, I think is not restricted only to those who understand arabic. The most important thing is to understand the message(from Quran in a language one understands), its essence and that I do, to the best of my ability and thus I know the truth of Quran.
Again, it guides me coz I understand the message through a language I understand. -
Hi Stilllearning,
Peace to u too!
Hi Jaxal,
why would u say Quran is corrupted? ur reasons,please.?