Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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salaam
So its ok for the systems to have rules and PUNISH people? So why do you have a problem with ISLAM having rules? Why the double standards please?
Would you be kind enough to find where I have stated I have problems with Islam having rules?
The whole discussion has been that Quran does not have rules to govern a given society-I have given you simple examples of cars schools etc.
In fact I would be happy to accept these rules if you can find them for me.
Let us start with a very simple one speed of a car in built up area. -
The whole discussion has been that Quran does not have rules to govern a given society
Lashings for Adultery is not part of a rule of a given society?
Regards,
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Lashings for Adultery is not part of a rule of a given society?
Well thats settled it then we can run a whole society by lashing people for adultery. That covers just about everything i guess.
How many lashes for overspeeding?
regards -
Lashings for Adultery is not part of a rule of a given society?
Well thats settled it then we can run a whole society by lashing people for adultery. That covers just about everything i guess.
How many lashes for overspeeding?
regardsTwo! Since in Muhammads time they sped on Camels, so two lashes for each hump wink
But you don't get it do you? Just like jaxal...
Still learning YOU HAVE A SET OF DIVINE IMMUTBLE LAWS like LASHING FOR ADULTERY. THESE LAWS CAN'T BE CHANGED. IN DEMOCRACY YOU CAN - DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS AND MAN MADE LAWS?
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Two! Since in Muhammads time they sped on Camels, so two lashes for each hump
Humor is suppose to be funny-not a repetitive s---- jokes
But you don't get it do you? Just like jaxal...
I suppose you do. Let us start from beginning for the umpteenth time
You said Quran is anti-democratic! full stop!
Democracy is a system used to govern any given society.
In any given society there will be number of differnt groups
with different set of rules for any given problem
There may be group of muslims who want to be part of this
democratic process and form a party who if elected will have urban
road speed for cars of 37.4567 miles/hour, severe beating for those
who tell crap jokes and think they are funny and also lashes for
adultery. Unless the majority accept them they will not be entitled to
rule and implement the lashes.
How do you find this antidemocratic-or are you going to disappear
again.
regardsStill learning YOU HAVE A SET OF DIVINE IMMUTBLE LAWS like LASHING FOR ADULTERY. THESE LAWS CAN'T BE CHANGED. IN DEMOCRACY YOU CAN - DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS AND MAN MADE LAWS?
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There was this new guy in town and one day, he asks a pastor on the street where the post office was. The pastor tells him, the right way would be to walk down this road, then turn right and turn left.he follows the pastors instruction and finds the post office and mails his letters.
A month later, he had to mail again. he went through the same way. when he asked someone on the street, the guy said ' they have relocated to west street and u need to go right then turn right then left. the guy thought, 'how can i believe this guy? the pastor had told me to go straight then right then left. HOW CAN THE PASTOR LIE? since the pastor cant lie, the man is.well, the pastor did give the right directions to the post office earlier. but what the guy didnt understand was, the directions were right becoz they served the purpose. and that is why they were said.
now this is what happens when a man doesnt use the so called 'common sense', as to understand why something was said in the first place.
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Two! Since in Muhammads time they sped on Camels, so two lashes for each hump
Humor is suppose to be funny-not a repetitive s---- jokes
Its hard to make some people laugh wink
But don't upset yourself over it winkBut you don't get it do you? Just like jaxal...
I suppose you do.Yes -)
And here it is DIVINE IMMUTBLE LAWS are not COMPATIBLE with DEMOCRACY.
Let us start from beginning for the umpteenth time
You said Quran is anti-democratic! full stop!Yes, for above reason. DEMOCRACY - human make the laws. This always will be incompatible with DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS. You either ignore divine immutable laws and embrace DEMOCRACY...but you can't have both....
The rest of your argument is extraneous words...
In any given society there will be number of differnt groups
with different set of rules for any given problem
There may be group of muslims who want to be part of this
democratic process and form a party who if elected will have urban
road speed for cars of 37.4567 miles/hour, severe beating for those
who tell crap jokes and think they are funny and also lashes for
adultery. Unless the majority accept them they will not be entitled to
rule and implement the lashes.Hey you seems to be funny -)
How about lashings for people who want to make DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW into a democractic process? wink
Regards,
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Peace,
The whole discussion has been that Quran does not have rules to govern a given society
I'm going to assume that you are not too familiar with quranic concepts so it's application to the modern epoch has evaded you.
I believe al-quran does have laws to govern a society.
For example, one's power is to be cut for theft, we should have a strong standing military to avert threats, house arrest for certain obscenities, contracts, et cetera.
You wonder how the rasool could lead in the modern epoch, take the exemplars of David and Solomon.
Al-Kitaab is not stagnant in the flow of time. It means something even now. It will benefit those who know. Knowledge of alkitaab is a preriquisite to understanding .
Joe
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Salaam Stillearning,
I have reread the thread in its entirety and have formulated the issues which I think remains unresolved.
Im going to assume one thing that you're a person who believes AL-QURAAN IS YOUR CRITERIA. If im wrong in this assertion, then forget the points below and peace be upon you.
- You wrote Lottree I am in full agreement with you that democracy, without being perfect, is the best system to date
My question Is democracy better than God's system? If you still believe in al-quraan, prove this from al-quraan please?
- Do you believe that we should confer with people who DO NOT BELIEVE when operationalising God's laws? Yes or no please.
That's all for now.
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now this is what happens when a man doesnt use the so called 'common sense', as to understand why something was said in the first place.
What's the use of abandoning hadith when you take on other stories as your criteria for right and wrong?
If you can't produce evidence from al-quraan, then really what's the point of discussing anything?
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Salaamun alaikum to you,
I will ask one more time before abandoning this thread completely
PRODUCE EVIDENCE FROM AL-QURAAN PLEASE.
SOME VERSES FROM THE QURAN TO PROVE THAT IT SUPPORTS DEMOCRACY.
if you will not or cannot do this, ask yourselves why.
I'm not continuing this discussion without evidence from al-quraan. To me, al-quraan is how to run our lives. If you feel al-quraan isnt important enough to quote in this discussion, peace be upon you.
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Hi Mquran,
now this is what happens when a man doesnt use the so called 'common sense', as to understand why something was said in the first place.
What's the use of abandoning hadith when you take on other stories as your criteria for right and wrong?
yes, i believe all form of goodness, wisdom, knowledge contained within and outside Quran are from Allah.
Thats why reality, common sense matters to me coz i try not to be shortsighted.
Peace, anyways. u r free to believe as u understand is right, and so am i. -
Hi Nabi,
You're not getting me at all. You should be able to show that Allah said that he will stop sending rusul and nabiyeen and that there is a final one.
I get u, loud and clear.
Ok, Here it is. Allah acknowledges that He sent rusul/nabi's before prophet Mohammed. Infact, names are mentioned too.
Allah acknowledges that Prophet Mohammed is indeed His messenger.
But Allah doesnt mention any more of them. I would take seal of the prophet as the last prophet. And Allah also says He has 'perfected' the religion and completed His favour on mankind which would also imply that mankind is now expected to take up the responsibility of upholding Allah's values by themselves.If its not mentioned, are u saying u r making an Assumption urself, becoz u dont agree on 'seal of the prophets' or Allah saying he had perfected the religion and He had completed His favour etc.
It does not need to be mentioned that more rusul will come because Allah has not said that He is stopping them from coming.
Even if you take khatem to mean seal, you must understand that a seal can be popped. Again I ask that you read the link provided below.Thanks for the link. I did go through it. Yes, the seal can be popped up. Infact anything can happen. We do not know what is to to come in future. Only Allah knows coz its He who decides and makes things happen.
But yes, We are not expected to wait around for a messenger to govern people coz Allah didnt tell us to do so. So, We ought to go on and do our best to uphold the values of goodness, righteousness, justice etc which Allah has asked us to do.so, is 'more nabi/rusul to come' ur assumption?
In my opinion yes, there will be more.
so, u agree, its just ur opinion. and not a clear fact stated in the Quran. Peace!
Peace Nabi, i just dont see it.
You do not need to see it for it to be as such.
I know. Same goes for u.
Where exactly has He said that?That more nabis/rusuls will come from time to time after prophet Mohammed?
There are many ayatin stating this. Allah sends rusul and has not said that He will stop.
There are many ayatin stating that Allah sent rusul before Prophet Mohammed and that Prophet Mohammed was a messenger. there are no ayatin in Quran stating that Allah will keep sending messengers until the final day or infact after prophet Mohammed, to govern mankind.
What are u talking about?
I'm talking about how the rejectors believed that God will not send other rusul. From them you should derive a lesson.
Currently, I have no rusul to accept or reject so its pointless to say that I should accept a non exsistent Nabi.
If Allah does send a prophet today or in future, it will be very evident and the messenger will have clear signs.
Please describe to me these bayyinat you will know of? Could you explain your view on ayatin 2351-52?
2344 Then sent We our apostles in succession every time there came to a people their apostle, they accused him of falsehood so We made them follow each other (in punishment) We made them as a tale (that is told) So away with a people that will not believe!
2345 Then We sent Moses and his brother Aaron, with Our Signs and authority manifest,
2346 To Pharaoh and his Chiefs But these behaved insolently they were an arrogant people.
2347 They said "Shall we believe in two men like ourselves? And their people are subject to us!"
2348 So they accused them of falsehood, and they became of those who were destroyed.
2349 And We gave Moses the Book, in order that they might receive guidance.
2350 And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.
2351 O ye apostles! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.Like i said, Allah is narrating about the prophets who came before prophet Mohammed. so, the apostles would indicate them.We can not pull a verse out of context, single it out and try to make sense out of it.
Peace! -
Peace,
But Allah doesnt mention any more of them.
Of course not!
How much of a guidance would such a declaration be that Allah will send Joseph in the future or any man by any name?
What you are looking for is nonesensical.
And Allah also says He has 'perfected' the religion <cut>
Yes Allah has said this. This does not mean that the very same din that was promulgated before by Allah and His rusul were incomplete. He has perfected it as it has been perfected before.
and completed His favour on mankind which would also imply that mankind is now expected to take up the responsibility of upholding Allah's values by themselves.
You are making wrong assumptions and are not taking the quranic principles into account. People have always been expected to take such responsibility .
so, u agree, its just ur opinion. and not a clear fact stated in the Quran. Peace!
You did ask my opinion did you not?
so, is 'more nabi/rusul to come' ur assumption?
So I gave you my opinion. Let's not resort to ill-founded tactics.
there are no ayatin in Quran stating that Allah will keep sending messengers until the final day or infact after prophet Mohammed, to govern mankind.
This does not mean that no more rusul will come! You still have not shown me where Allah said He will stop the sending of rusul. You're adopting the practice of al-kafireen who deny any more rusul will come after the one's thay have heard of.
Currently, I have no rusul to accept or reject so its pointless to say that I should accept a non exsistent Nabi.
It is you who have adopted the belief that no more rusul are to be sent. You say Allah will send no more because you have not come across any ayatin stating specific rusul to be looking for and because He does not say that He will send more rusul. So I ask you to show me where Allah has said that He will stop sending rusul.
so, the apostles would indicate them.We can not pull a verse out of context, single it out and try to make sense out of it.
So Allah is mentioning past rusul and then says "O rusul"? Please explain how you come to the conclusion that God is speaking to past rusul? Why is He telling those who have already passed away to do certain things? I ask again, please describe to me these bayyinat you will know of?
Joe
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SaLaM
Again the whole discussion is going off tangent becoz of the people who cant answer simple questions. You dont know who the messenger is. You dont know who to follow. Without a messenger a country cannot be ruled. Simple questions
1] Who is the messenger today
2] Who were the messenger in the last 1400 years that governed their kingdom under laws strictly from the Quran -
Peace to you PM,
yes, i believe all form of goodness, wisdom, knowledge contained within and outside Quran are from Allah.
Thats why reality, common sense matters to me coz i try not to be shortsighted.
Peace, anyways. u r free to believe as u understand is right, and so am i.Interesting. So a reliance on Allah for a criteria is short-sighted? Honestly , I am amazed at how 'muslims' can say this? In my opinion, your view simply shows a lack of familiarity with the book and its concepts, but that's just my opinion. peace.
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SaLaM
Lashings for Adultery is not part of a rule of a given society?
HAHAHA rotfl is that the only rule in your society?? Lashing??
Thats one of the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS in the QURAN but there are also laws on murder and inheritance etc... Jaxal - but obiviously you can ignore all the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS wink and say QURAN promotes democracy - where human make the LAWS... wink
Regards,