Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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Salaam Stillearnig
Against my own better judgement I am reponding to your post.
If your judgement is 'better', then why go against it?
I am astonished that you feel I have not answered your questions. I cannot recall many answers from you other than vague ramblings I will try for possibly the last time. If we stick to numbers then it migght help
It might.
(1) You are correct that I said democracy, not perfect, is best system to date-no response reqd
(2) According to you, correct me if I am mistaken, that the best system is NOT DEMOCRACY but the one according to the rasul.
(3) Does it not logically follow that we need the rasul to give us the rules for any society to function and I have given you simple examples of the rules required.
(4) So let us assume that I accept your arguement that the rasul will give us the best rules
(5) So we come to the cruical question-Who is the rasul that will give simple laws to you and me.
Let us deal with what you have raised first then I will deal with your assertion what my questions prove.
once again, i have not met the rasul, so i dont know
ball is in your court. Please address my question what does this prove ?
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With due respects to you mquran, I did not use those words exactly (I have the transcript of our conversations). You raised the point that Jaxal was annoying you. I merely commented that when other people are not responding to your questions directly, sometimes it is best to leave them alone and not get irate about it...
Hardly annoying. I was just wondering how long it would take to get this person to understand. I think at this rate, monkeys would evolve and understand your point before this person does. The Quran actually predicted about people who worse like cattle who do not understand (7/179) It was good advice though, peacefulmuslim and stillearning have actually understood what joe and my points were and however small, progress has been made.
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And Mquran, its pretty lame to label people who disagree with u as kafirs.
try correcting urself coz u r not the best of mankind nor r u the judge.PM, I'M not labelling. Al-quraan does the labelling. Is it my fault if it doesn't agree with your thinking. You apply historical elements to it but al-quraan categorically denies it. Im not saying you're a kafir. Im just saying the quran explicitly labels your act. So come off it , please. Unlike some, you actually discuss with sincerety. Bring your ayaat as evidence and we can continue.
And ur second escape seems to be throwing label of sunnism on people who disagree with u.
I understand Quran and the way i see it, Allah doesnt tell us to blinfold ourselves, or call each other names or act arrogant.
Peace!Sunnism is an ideology. If you follow its philosophy or approach, then you're a sunni. I conject that your tafseer methodology mirrors sunnism's approach. This is why im telling you this. Al-quraan doesn't approve of this method. It calls those who think its a historical text as kafireen. So if you're a believer, why are you still doing it?
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Salaam sis Majidah,
SMHow do you know that so well? So you think Quran is only a guide nothing else!?
Hmn I think Quran can be more than just a guide, I see Quran as a lifeline or something, you hold on to it and won't let it go if you are familiar with it.
Al-quraan is a guide correct and we need to hold on to it. What does a guide do ? It provides you LAWS which if you follow, you will be evolved. This is whole point of al-quraan. This person cannot even understand what a guide does and so there's no point in saying anything to this person. He doesn't even know what part of al-quraan is authentic since he claims the quran is corrupted despite proof to the contrary.
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Salaam Mq and all,
I'm give up!
Not because I have wrong understanding but it feels like it's no meaning to go further with people who can't see.
Peace and take care,
Sis Majidah
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salaamonce again, i have not met the rasul, so i dont know
ball is in your court. Please address my question what does this prove ?
Across 16 pages you have argued again and again that rasul is the one who will give us the rules and you dont know who this rasul is-ignorance and stupidity is a lethal combination
and you hhave the nerve to make remarks likeI was just wondering how long it would take to get this person to understand. I think at this rate, monkeys would evolve and understand your point before this person does.
It is often said ignorance is a bilss in your case it is heavenly.
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SaLaM stillearning
Have you watched the movie Contact? one of my favourite movies. Akum razor. All explaination given, the simplest one tends to be the right one. So lets consider the 2 possibilities put forward here.
1] An all knowing messenger comes and saves mankind by teaching them the laws of God from the Quran. Where everything is fair. Everything is beautiful and everything is just damn lovely. Where the messenger chooses the best of the best for a specific purpose who will do their job to the best of their abilities. Where one book... a corrupted and altered book has it all. All the formulas and explaination of why things are and how to run a country for dummies and all the laws required needed to run a fair, balanced, tolerent, peaceful society. This messenger is strong, smart, intelligent, all knwoing, full capable of handleing all situation and has excellent presentation skill. Basically a superhero. (PS this has already been admitted that no such person is known to have come for the last 1400 years after the revelation of the quran. )
or...
2] It is up to each and every single induvidual one of us to change our ways. that we as humans try to sort the mess out that we created.
I think the answer is clear. The ONLY from these people was that its a messenger who gives the rule and what not. Now they admit that they have no idea who the messenger is for this generation OR who were the messengers for the last 1400 years. or even the last 100 years. OR EVEN THE PAST 50 YEARS. The argument doesnt hold any weight anymore. It has been dismanteled, disected and completely proved absurd. I think we are ready for the next point
How does the Quran tells us to choose a government
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Hi
Do you believe people, say 3000 years ago, were less civilized than we are today?
OH no! Dare i believe or disagree with u!
On a serious note,
come on Nabi, ofcourse people 3000 yrs ago were less civilized than we are today.(6) "Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-m others; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATI ON.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form.
"From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, 'into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREA SECTION OF THE WORLD. ...' The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before.
Exerpts fromhttp//www.islamworld.net/Muhammad.in.Bible.htmlor are u saying that mankind behaved very civilized and orderly on their own, from the time mankind originated? propably their knowledge and wisdom was as good too.
U surprise me!
Peace! -
Hi Mquran,
And Mquran, its pretty lame to label people who disagree with u as kafirs.
try correcting urself coz u r not the best of mankind nor r u the judge.PM, I'M not labelling. Al-quraan does the labelling. Is it my fault if it doesn't agree with your thinking. You apply historical elements to it but al-quraan categorically denies it. Im not saying you're a kafir. Im just saying the quran explicitly labels your act. So come off it , please. Unlike some, you actually discuss with sincerety. Bring your ayaat as evidence and we can continue.
Mquran, its pretty lame to use Allah's verse from Quran out of context, at people who disagree with ur views and interpretations. And what act of mine does Allah label?
Well, nice to know that u appreciate the sincerity but I would like some reciprocation without resorting to 'judging my views or me' for that matter. I am open to discussion with anyone who wants to talk sense and truth.And ur second escape seems to be throwing label of sunnism on people who disagree with u.
I understand Quran and the way i see it, Allah doesnt tell us to blinfold ourselves, or call each other names or act arrogant.
Peace!Sunnism is an ideology. If you follow its philosophy or approach, then you're a sunni. I conject that your tafseer methodology mirrors sunnism's approach. This is why im telling you this. Al-quraan doesn't approve of this method. It calls those who think its a historical text as kafireen. So if you're a believer, why are you still doing it?
Quran doesnt approve calling each other names as well. Nor does it approve arrogance. Nor does it approve blind beliefs.
And what exactly are u saying is sunnism's ideology? using our brains and thinking? Coz thats what i did. Is that the sunnism ideology?
Infact using Quran's kafir verse to address any one else who disagrees with ur views is very sunni, coz thats what those guys do.Anyway, Peace Mquran!
I am not here to judge anyone.
I am here to discuss views/ideas/ beliefs and thus understand & learn or re-learn the truth.
If u r in for it, I am in. -
I am making an earnest approach here once again.
For all those who say Quran is anti-democratic
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Is there any verse in Quran that says Mankind should not be governed by an elected representative and team, who would help maintain law and order among mankind in a transparent manner taking into consideration the views of all?
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What kind of governance does Quran propose?
I suppose we have had discussions over this and the conclusion from u guys being According to Quran, man should be governed by Al-rasul who would govern according to Quranic laws. (Though no Quranic verses have been offered as a proof yet)
It has also been agreed that no one is aware of any rasul after prophet Mohammed. And no, We are not going into history here.
And it has also been said by u guys that we would know only the rasul of one's time and cant know the past.
Well, I checked out with my grandparents. And no rusul seem to have come to govern them during their time either.
So, can it be said that ' there is no rasul now'.
So, how are we to be governed?
3.Well, getting back to reality, in today's world, there are three kinds of governance democracy, monarchy, dictators.
Lets try understanding each.
Democracy Every human being is equal and every human being has a right of opinion. And man has a right to choose a leader who will work to maintain law and order in the society. In short, democracy is for the people, by the people, of the people and a transparent system where the elected leader is very accountable to the people who elect him.
What its supposed to achieve law and order, human rights, good safe society with good values.Monarchy Theres a king who rules the country acording to his wish. No human being in the country can question or oppose the king if he is wrong about anything. And the king is the absolute authority and is neither accountable nor transparent.And it just goes on in the family. And if its good governance or not, is really dependent if the king is good or not. But then, u cant do anything about it even if its bad governance coz once u opine about anything against the king, u will be slayed.
Dictators Pretty much similar to monarchy but the only difference being there's no inheritance here. Whoever is powerful enough takes over and dictates over the people.
Looking at all these systems, which do u think, upholds the values and righteousness mentioned in Quran?
4.On a closer look at countries and their governance in the present age, the muslim countries of the arab world claim to stand by the rules/laws mentioned in Quran and claim that they live by it. Now, lets see the progress they have made. Have they made any? In any front? Inspite of being very rich with natural resources such as oil? Are they able to maintain law and order or infact bring about development/growth? Why not?
O yeah, the guys there believe its important to live by Quran, and thus recite it and try reliving 610 AD.
Is that what Qurans says?
I'll tell u an example of that attititude and blindness. There was this highly religious old man who just kept making babies though he could not afford to take care of them. When asked why he did that, he quoted that God has asked to produce children and as for the upbringing and affording, God would take care of it.1731 Kill not your children for fear of want We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin.
Is this what God meant by that verse? But thats how he understood what God said. People abuse and misuse Quranic verses to stay in ignorance and manipulate it to use to their advantage.
And this is what happens when u do that.
The focus should be on living life righteously and striving for wisdom and knowledge, which is the message of the Quran. U dont do any good if u hold the book in ur hand and stare at it religiously.
Look at pakistan and India for example. Two countries who started from square one at the same time.
Pakistan( a country with muslims and hence no differences based on religion) focussed on religion and is still struggling to come out of blind beliefs and practices, which is hampering its growth as well.
India( a country with many religions and hence differences) focussed on growth and develoment, instead, and guess what? All the people who got educated( muslims and non muslims) stopped doing nonsense their ancestors did. Why? Coz they woke up. Coz they realised. Coz their eyes are open. Thats what knowledge and wisdom does to one. There are still illiterates who practice crude beliefs in india as well, but the majority have woken up.
5. We live in a society where most of the people are prepared to think beyond religious differences.
People want to be united by the humanity factor first. Is that so wrong? Does Quran say human beings should not be united and live by righteous values? Doesnt Quran command tolerance and compassion? Doesnt Quran command a righteous life?
What are we doing wrong then? -
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SaLaM PM
First of all, brilliant post. I swear women have a way with these things. loollll. Second, a bit about monarchy. According to what is being said, the messenger will NEVER be wrong. HE will be THE BEST OF THE BEST in making judgement. Quran says there can be no man like that. So assuming the whole 'messenger can be the only one who rules us' is true then even if the he is wrong, there aint a damn thing we can do about that coz he is the messenger. That in itself goes againt what God teaches in the Quran, gospel and Torah.
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salaam jaxal
I think the answer is clear. The ONLY from these people was that its a messenger who gives the rule and what not. Now they admit that they have no idea who the messenger is for this generation OR who were the messengers for the last 1400 years. or even the last 100 years. OR EVEN THE PAST 50 YEARS. The argument doesnt hold any weight anymore. It has been dismanteled, disected and completely proved absurd. I think we are ready for the next point
How does the Quran tells us to choose a government
Like you I thought It has been dismanteled, disected and completely proved absurd. I think we are ready for the next point
until PM-wow!Salaam PM
First of all, brilliant post. I swear women have a way with these things
Could not agree more .
So, can it be said that ' there is no rasul now'.
So, how are we to be governed?I think that encapsulates the whole discussion. If Quran is anti democratic then So, how are we to be governed?
peace.
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Peace,
OH no! Dare i believe or disagree with u! )
It does not matter to me.
come on Nabi, ofcourse people 3000 yrs ago were less civilized than we are today.
Why would you say that people 3000 years ago were less civilized than we are today?
or are u saying that mankind behaved very civilized and orderly on their own, from the time mankind originated?
I'm not sure what mankind did when they originated but I think man could be disorderly and orderly at the same time. I believe tribes of long ago had their sthical standards. In Rome tribes which did not meet Roman ethical and hygenic standards were considered barbaric, i.e. bathing was what the civilized did on a daily basis and the uncivilized did not. In Egypt they were civilized, with their social heirarchies and labor divisions and economies. Such as you will find in Mesopotamia , and China.
However, what does distinguish men from animals is man's ability to think. We think because we speak. Speech puts us above the animal kingdom in this way. Speech is a way that we use abstract signals for the material signals in nature. Thus with these abstract signals we reflect on what is said, we think, have conciousness. Those 19th century thinkers were really cool. Especially Pavlov. ) With the use of our hands to build things and to create, we became social, learned to interact and to talk one to another.
propably their knowledge and wisdom was as good too.
These people did have knowledge I believe. Thier use of abstract ideas and symbols to express different things in nature beyond the senses was uncanny. The gods of the people represented forces in the world.
U surprise me!
Okay.
So, how are we to be governed?
According to the standards/statutes of Allah.
Joe
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Hi Jaxal and stillearning,
well, thank u for thinking the post is good.
I hope it also makes sense to those who keep saying Quran is anti-democratic for no obvious reasons.
I hope people remove the blinfold they have created for themselves and be more realistic and practical in today's world!
Covering up ignorance or mulishness with Quran, is not what Quran is for!
And Quran is there to guide us and not spoon feed us about everything!
I hope they see it. !
Peace! ) -
Across 16 pages you have argued again and again that rasul is the one who will give us the rules and you dont know who this rasul is-ignorance and stupidity is a lethal combination
and you hhave the nerve to make remarks likeStilllearning, it seems you're too cowardly to take on the question. The reason is you ask this IS in fact IGNORANCE. Joe has pointed out the condition of fatratin min ar-rasool which you obviously don't know. That's why you can't answer my question. My lack of a positive answer has no bearing on al-quraan's concepts. How do you know, just because I don't know of a messenger, there isn't one? That's like saying, because I never met God, there's no God. THAT'S stupid and it's ok, you're 'stilllearning', after all.
Why do you think you cannot ONCE quote al-quraan? Its because al-quraan ISN'T YOUR BOOK. It doesn't stand by you in the least. Allah calls its 'ayaatun bayyinah' but you cannot call upon it to clarify for you? Why do you think that is? Because the concept you defend is KUFR. It's a concept which flies in the face of submission to Allah.
I CHALLENGE YOU to bring quranic verses to support your arguments. A SINGLE VERSE supporting democracy. Are you a muslim or what????
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Hi Nabi,
Civilization is a continuous evolving process.
And yes, people of those ages were less civilized than we are today and thats very understandable. Coz there was ignorance about life and all things around them. Ignorance reaps fear. Since they didnt understand how nature works, they feared nature and considered them as Gods and prayed to them to gain their favours, and sacrificed fellow humans to gain their favours, and did all sort of nonsense to prevent the Gods from getting angry with them.
They didnt know women were not sex slaves.
They didnt know that men and women were equal.
They didnt know gambling, killing, stealing were wrong.The second largest linguistic and racial group in the world is the Indo-European community of nations. Most of the countries of present day Europe have Indo-European roots.
The pagan war god Wotan, one of the symbols of pagan barbarism and bigotry.
All these various civilizations have had their prophets who proclaimed the existence and the unity of God and made His commands known. But when we examine recorded history, we see that Indo-European peoples from ancient times always believed in paganism. The Greek and Roman civilizations, the Teutons, Vikings and other Barbarian peoples living in southern Europe at that time were all polytheistic pagans. For this reason, these communities remained completely without moral guidance. Violence and savagery were regarded as praiseworthy; homosexuality and adultery were widely practiced. (The most important historical representative of Indo-European civilization was the Roman Empire, and we must not forget that it was a savage society that delighted in seeing people torn apart in the arenas.)
These peoples who ruled Europe encountered monotheism through Jesus Christ, a prophet sent to Semitic people. Sent as a prophet to the children of Israel, the teaching of Jesus spread throughout Europe in the course of time and all the formerly pagan peoples gradually accepted Christianity.
But in the 18th and 19th centuries, with the weakening of Christianity and the growth of ideologies and philosophies that promoted the rejection of religion, a strange current of thought circulated in Europe- Neo-Paganism. The leaders of this movement claimed that European societies must reject Christianity and return to ancient pagan beliefs. According to the adherents of Neo-Paganism, the way European societies understood morality in ancient pagan times (i.e., a warlike, pitiless, bloodthirsty, unbounded barbarous morality), was much superior to the morality they adopted when they accepted Christianity (i.e., a humble, compassionate, peace-loving and religious morality).Nietzsche was an antisemite, because he sympathized with the pagan culture of violence and hated Theistic religions.
One of the most important representatives of this trend is also one of the greatest theorists of Fascism- Friedrich Nietzsche. He hated Christianity; he believed that it had destroyed the warlike spirit of the German people (*), that is, it's very essence.
The adherents of Neo-Paganism were hostile to Christianity; at the same time, they adopted a great hatred for Judaism which they saw as the source of Christianity. Indeed, they saw Christianity as the disseminator of Jewish ideas throughout the world and regarded it as a kind of Jewish plot.
So, this Neo-Paganism, on the one hand incited hostility against religion and, on the other, gave birth to fascism and antisemitism. Especially when we look at the foundations of the Nazi ideology, we can see clearly that Hitler and his confreres were, in fact, pagans.
excerpt from http//www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/antisemitism.htmlNow we are not that ignorant, are we?
We understand certain things more than they did. We understand how nature works, dont we? They couldnt reason out things. we can.
so, how can u say people of that age and today are the same? -
Covering up ignorance or mulishness with Quran, is not what Quran is for!
And Quran is there to guide us and not spoon feed us about everything!This is very funny indeed. Allah sent the book for guidance, but according to you, its SILENT about MANKIND'S RULING SYSTEM? Have you actually opened the Quran, peaceful muslim?
Stillearning thinks the best system is DEMOCRACY and you think the Quran is SILENT on how man should rule society? Wow ! Really amazing the extent of your ignorance.
I issue the challenge the evidence FROM AL-QURAAN. Or denounce it altogether. What's the point of having it if it's not meant to govern us? Maybe you guys can use it to sing hymns or something
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Mquran, its pretty lame to use Allah's verse from Quran out of context, at people who disagree with ur views and interpretations. And what act of mine does Allah label?
Well, nice to know that u appreciate the sincerity but I would like some reciprocation without resorting to 'judging my views or me' for that matter. I am open to discussion with anyone who wants to talk sense and truth.Once again, I accept the possibility that im wrong. But do this one little thing for me, will you?
PROVIDE EVIDENCE PLEASE.
Do you know that book you keep on the top shelf with funny looking calligraphy? Well, its actually taught by Allah. Allah is the supreme authority of all creation. He actually issued LAWS for humankind. Read that book please and if you believe in it, SHOW ME WHERE I'VE QUOTED WRONGLY. I'm more than happy to listen.
As for the 'dont judge me' rant, this isn't Christianity. Christians love to crow 'judge not lest ye be judged' malarkey. Al-quraan is different. It's telling you TO JUDGE and further, to judge BY THE BOOK. Obviously if you don't wanna do this, its cool. But its really pathetic to claim to be a muslim if the book is totally alien to you.
How do I know the book is alien to you? Well, if you read it, you wont find a single verse telling to you to go to a disbeliever asking him to VOTE FOR YOU. No believer in al-quraan did that.
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Well Mquran,
the only true follower of Quran,
please enlighten me with a verse where Allah says democracy is wrong,
or showing compassion and tolerance towards righteous non believers is wrong?And if u cant do that, please dont rant or Judge people.
u r no better than anyone else and only Allah judges. Allah has asked us to judge sins so that they can be punished. Allah doesnt tell u to judge ur fellow beings for no obvious reasons or show disrespect towards them.
Stop acting like u r the only one who understands and follows Quran.And if u do read and understand Quran as u claim, u ought to know this
4910 The Believers are but a single Brotherhood So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy.
4911 O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor let some women laugh at others It may be that the (latter are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong.
4913 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
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Civilization is a continuous evolving process
.False. Civilsations can also DEVOLVE. Try reading al-quraan for a change in place of Hegel, PM. When the 'ajl' of a society's triggered, the count begins to the hour of destruction.
And yes, people of those ages were less civilized than we are today and thats very understandable. Coz there was ignorance about life and all things around them. Ignorance reaps fear. Since they didnt understand how nature works, they feared nature and considered them as Gods and prayed to them to gain their favours, and sacrificed fellow humans to gain their favours, and did all sort of nonsense to prevent the Gods from getting angry with them.
Once again False. People of today may not worship stone idols so much, but they do worship thier idols. Movie stars, figures in high society. All of them command the devotion of the masses. Shirik is alive and well.
They didnt know women were not sex slaves.
For God's sake, just go to a London phone booth in Central or the West End. What do you think those women are??? There for the fun of it ? Poverty FORCED them into this. Why do you analyse so superficially, PM? Do you think slavery is defined by steel chains around your ankles?
They didnt know that men and women were equal.
Didn't they? Funnily, the only revert in Islam in al-quraan was a woman who lived in pre-muhammadan times. Queen of Sheba. So false yet again.
They didnt know gambling, killing, stealing were wrong.
And we do now? Is that why crimes still go on and now gambling is a NATIONAL INSTITUTION called the lottery?
Don't be so proud of living in these times, Peaceful Muslim. In some ways, our present society are worse than animals. Allah Himself says so.