Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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Peace,
I suppose it tells you at what speed to travel as well, please also let me know so I can also drive as written in the Quran.
Why do you have such a supposition?
Do you feel al-quran is of necessity today?
If not do you agree with the following
so if u see, the purpose was to bring law and order, in accordance to the conditions that exsisted then!
Do you believe that Allah has given laws in alkitab?
If so, how does one implement them in a society which may already have a set of laws.
Do you believe people, say 3000 years ago, were less civilized than we are today?
Joe
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Peace,
Sorry some defect with my computer I cannot seem to make out the present day messenger or all those for the past 1400 years. Please do you mind simply repeatingg their names for me. Thanks.
A defect with your computer is preventing you from seeing a modern rasool? What has that got to do with what I said to you anyways?
If you will read post #342 I will not need to repeat what was said already.
Joe
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salaam
The questions are simple, clear and easy to grasp
1] Who is the messenger today
2] Who were the messengers in the last 1400 years who goverened their kingdom under laws sctriclty from the QuranSeem 2 very simple questions to me anyone care to answer?
I still have not seen the answer to the above questions-are they really that difficult?
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Dear Stillearning,
The questions are simple, clear and easy to grasp
1] Who is the messenger today
2] Who were the messengers in the last 1400 years who goverened their kingdom under laws sctriclty from the QuranSeem 2 very simple questions to me anyone care to answer?
I still have not seen the answer to the above questions-are they really that difficult?
I will answer now. If you could be so kind as to ACKNOWLEDGE the answer this time as opposed to just ignoring it.
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Who is the messenger today ? I don't know, I haven't met one yet.
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Who were messengers for last 1400 years? I don't know. I trust al-quraan and my experiences only. Not historical reports.
Now let me ask you, what do your questions prove? I'd like to see if you're honest enough to engage this question instead of your usual tactic of throwing it over your shoulder sir. Thank you.
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salaam mquran
Against my own better judgement I am reponding to your post.
I am astonished that you feel I have not answered your questions. I cannot recall many answers from you other than vague ramblings I will try for possibly the last time. If we stick to numbers then it migght help
(1) You are correct that I said democracy, not perfect, is best system to date-no response reqd
(2) According to you, correct me if I am mistaken, that the best system is NOT DEMOCRACY but the one according to the rasul.
(3) Does it not logically follow that we need the rasul to give us the rules for any society to function and I have given you simple examples of the rules required.
(4) So let us assume that I accept your arguement that the rasul will give us the best rules
(5) So we come to the cruical question-Who is the rasul that will give simple laws to you and me.
Let us deal with what you have raised first then I will deal with your assertion what my questions prove.
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I am glad that you are answering his question.
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SaLaM LT
I merely commented that when other people are not responding to your questions directly, sometimes it is best to leave them alone and not get irate about it...
Do you think if you would have told him to get down on his al-knees and bark like a al-dog, he would done it? loooooooollll coz you seem to have some leash on him wink
Can you not see the difference between two sentences of your own writing Jaxal
LT i dont know what you are looking at but no.. i dont see any difference between the two statments. Perhaps its your old age causing you to see something thats not there.... old chap? wink
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SaLaM SM
How do you know that so well? So you think Quran is only a guide nothing else!?
Becoz that is all it is. Infact SM, did you know , you dont even need the Quran to be a guided? Quran is just a book. An altered, corrupt, abused book. Its not the physical book that matters. Its the spiritual message that God breathed into us when he created us that matters.
But this isn't about how many laws there actually is in Quran,
Ofcourse it is SM. The Quran was never a book of laws. The Quran was never a book on how to run a country for dummies. The Quran was never there to tell me how to be a politician. It was simply there to guide. That is about it.
Quran teaching alot of morals with its many sayings of right and wrong and based on that we can have so high good moral so we can create an state, why not!?
That is what i am saying. Quan has only given us moral fabric. It is our job to look at that moral fabric and derieve the laws.
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SaLaM stillearning
(3) Does it not logically follow that we need the rasul to give us the rules for any society to function and I have given you simple examples of the rules required.
(4) So let us assume that I accept your arguement that the rasul will give us the best rules
(5) So we come to the cruical question-Who is the rasul that will give simple laws to you and me.
There it is. All its shining glory. we need the messenger. Messenger is sooooo important. But umm... right now.... we dont know who the messenger is. WE dont even know if there ever WAS a messenger. So all this time, people have been getting it wrong becoz there was no messenger. I think tht alone explains the absurdity.
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Salaam Stillearnig
Against my own better judgement I am reponding to your post.
If your judgement is 'better', then why go against it?
I am astonished that you feel I have not answered your questions. I cannot recall many answers from you other than vague ramblings I will try for possibly the last time. If we stick to numbers then it migght help
It might.
(1) You are correct that I said democracy, not perfect, is best system to date-no response reqd
(2) According to you, correct me if I am mistaken, that the best system is NOT DEMOCRACY but the one according to the rasul.
(3) Does it not logically follow that we need the rasul to give us the rules for any society to function and I have given you simple examples of the rules required.
(4) So let us assume that I accept your arguement that the rasul will give us the best rules
(5) So we come to the cruical question-Who is the rasul that will give simple laws to you and me.
Let us deal with what you have raised first then I will deal with your assertion what my questions prove.
once again, i have not met the rasul, so i dont know
ball is in your court. Please address my question what does this prove ?
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With due respects to you mquran, I did not use those words exactly (I have the transcript of our conversations). You raised the point that Jaxal was annoying you. I merely commented that when other people are not responding to your questions directly, sometimes it is best to leave them alone and not get irate about it...
Hardly annoying. I was just wondering how long it would take to get this person to understand. I think at this rate, monkeys would evolve and understand your point before this person does. The Quran actually predicted about people who worse like cattle who do not understand (7/179) It was good advice though, peacefulmuslim and stillearning have actually understood what joe and my points were and however small, progress has been made.
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And Mquran, its pretty lame to label people who disagree with u as kafirs.
try correcting urself coz u r not the best of mankind nor r u the judge.PM, I'M not labelling. Al-quraan does the labelling. Is it my fault if it doesn't agree with your thinking. You apply historical elements to it but al-quraan categorically denies it. Im not saying you're a kafir. Im just saying the quran explicitly labels your act. So come off it , please. Unlike some, you actually discuss with sincerety. Bring your ayaat as evidence and we can continue.
And ur second escape seems to be throwing label of sunnism on people who disagree with u.
I understand Quran and the way i see it, Allah doesnt tell us to blinfold ourselves, or call each other names or act arrogant.
Peace!Sunnism is an ideology. If you follow its philosophy or approach, then you're a sunni. I conject that your tafseer methodology mirrors sunnism's approach. This is why im telling you this. Al-quraan doesn't approve of this method. It calls those who think its a historical text as kafireen. So if you're a believer, why are you still doing it?
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Salaam sis Majidah,
SMHow do you know that so well? So you think Quran is only a guide nothing else!?
Hmn I think Quran can be more than just a guide, I see Quran as a lifeline or something, you hold on to it and won't let it go if you are familiar with it.
Al-quraan is a guide correct and we need to hold on to it. What does a guide do ? It provides you LAWS which if you follow, you will be evolved. This is whole point of al-quraan. This person cannot even understand what a guide does and so there's no point in saying anything to this person. He doesn't even know what part of al-quraan is authentic since he claims the quran is corrupted despite proof to the contrary.
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Salaam Mq and all,
I'm give up!
Not because I have wrong understanding but it feels like it's no meaning to go further with people who can't see.
Peace and take care,
Sis Majidah
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salaamonce again, i have not met the rasul, so i dont know
ball is in your court. Please address my question what does this prove ?
Across 16 pages you have argued again and again that rasul is the one who will give us the rules and you dont know who this rasul is-ignorance and stupidity is a lethal combination
and you hhave the nerve to make remarks likeI was just wondering how long it would take to get this person to understand. I think at this rate, monkeys would evolve and understand your point before this person does.
It is often said ignorance is a bilss in your case it is heavenly.
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SaLaM stillearning
Have you watched the movie Contact? one of my favourite movies. Akum razor. All explaination given, the simplest one tends to be the right one. So lets consider the 2 possibilities put forward here.
1] An all knowing messenger comes and saves mankind by teaching them the laws of God from the Quran. Where everything is fair. Everything is beautiful and everything is just damn lovely. Where the messenger chooses the best of the best for a specific purpose who will do their job to the best of their abilities. Where one book... a corrupted and altered book has it all. All the formulas and explaination of why things are and how to run a country for dummies and all the laws required needed to run a fair, balanced, tolerent, peaceful society. This messenger is strong, smart, intelligent, all knwoing, full capable of handleing all situation and has excellent presentation skill. Basically a superhero. (PS this has already been admitted that no such person is known to have come for the last 1400 years after the revelation of the quran. )
or...
2] It is up to each and every single induvidual one of us to change our ways. that we as humans try to sort the mess out that we created.
I think the answer is clear. The ONLY from these people was that its a messenger who gives the rule and what not. Now they admit that they have no idea who the messenger is for this generation OR who were the messengers for the last 1400 years. or even the last 100 years. OR EVEN THE PAST 50 YEARS. The argument doesnt hold any weight anymore. It has been dismanteled, disected and completely proved absurd. I think we are ready for the next point
How does the Quran tells us to choose a government
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Hi
Do you believe people, say 3000 years ago, were less civilized than we are today?
OH no! Dare i believe or disagree with u!
On a serious note,
come on Nabi, ofcourse people 3000 yrs ago were less civilized than we are today.(6) "Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-m others; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATI ON.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form.
"From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, 'into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREA SECTION OF THE WORLD. ...' The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before.
Exerpts fromhttp//www.islamworld.net/Muhammad.in.Bible.htmlor are u saying that mankind behaved very civilized and orderly on their own, from the time mankind originated? propably their knowledge and wisdom was as good too.
U surprise me!
Peace! -
Hi Mquran,
And Mquran, its pretty lame to label people who disagree with u as kafirs.
try correcting urself coz u r not the best of mankind nor r u the judge.PM, I'M not labelling. Al-quraan does the labelling. Is it my fault if it doesn't agree with your thinking. You apply historical elements to it but al-quraan categorically denies it. Im not saying you're a kafir. Im just saying the quran explicitly labels your act. So come off it , please. Unlike some, you actually discuss with sincerety. Bring your ayaat as evidence and we can continue.
Mquran, its pretty lame to use Allah's verse from Quran out of context, at people who disagree with ur views and interpretations. And what act of mine does Allah label?
Well, nice to know that u appreciate the sincerity but I would like some reciprocation without resorting to 'judging my views or me' for that matter. I am open to discussion with anyone who wants to talk sense and truth.And ur second escape seems to be throwing label of sunnism on people who disagree with u.
I understand Quran and the way i see it, Allah doesnt tell us to blinfold ourselves, or call each other names or act arrogant.
Peace!Sunnism is an ideology. If you follow its philosophy or approach, then you're a sunni. I conject that your tafseer methodology mirrors sunnism's approach. This is why im telling you this. Al-quraan doesn't approve of this method. It calls those who think its a historical text as kafireen. So if you're a believer, why are you still doing it?
Quran doesnt approve calling each other names as well. Nor does it approve arrogance. Nor does it approve blind beliefs.
And what exactly are u saying is sunnism's ideology? using our brains and thinking? Coz thats what i did. Is that the sunnism ideology?
Infact using Quran's kafir verse to address any one else who disagrees with ur views is very sunni, coz thats what those guys do.Anyway, Peace Mquran!
I am not here to judge anyone.
I am here to discuss views/ideas/ beliefs and thus understand & learn or re-learn the truth.
If u r in for it, I am in. -
I am making an earnest approach here once again.
For all those who say Quran is anti-democratic
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Is there any verse in Quran that says Mankind should not be governed by an elected representative and team, who would help maintain law and order among mankind in a transparent manner taking into consideration the views of all?
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What kind of governance does Quran propose?
I suppose we have had discussions over this and the conclusion from u guys being According to Quran, man should be governed by Al-rasul who would govern according to Quranic laws. (Though no Quranic verses have been offered as a proof yet)
It has also been agreed that no one is aware of any rasul after prophet Mohammed. And no, We are not going into history here.
And it has also been said by u guys that we would know only the rasul of one's time and cant know the past.
Well, I checked out with my grandparents. And no rusul seem to have come to govern them during their time either.
So, can it be said that ' there is no rasul now'.
So, how are we to be governed?
3.Well, getting back to reality, in today's world, there are three kinds of governance democracy, monarchy, dictators.
Lets try understanding each.
Democracy Every human being is equal and every human being has a right of opinion. And man has a right to choose a leader who will work to maintain law and order in the society. In short, democracy is for the people, by the people, of the people and a transparent system where the elected leader is very accountable to the people who elect him.
What its supposed to achieve law and order, human rights, good safe society with good values.Monarchy Theres a king who rules the country acording to his wish. No human being in the country can question or oppose the king if he is wrong about anything. And the king is the absolute authority and is neither accountable nor transparent.And it just goes on in the family. And if its good governance or not, is really dependent if the king is good or not. But then, u cant do anything about it even if its bad governance coz once u opine about anything against the king, u will be slayed.
Dictators Pretty much similar to monarchy but the only difference being there's no inheritance here. Whoever is powerful enough takes over and dictates over the people.
Looking at all these systems, which do u think, upholds the values and righteousness mentioned in Quran?
4.On a closer look at countries and their governance in the present age, the muslim countries of the arab world claim to stand by the rules/laws mentioned in Quran and claim that they live by it. Now, lets see the progress they have made. Have they made any? In any front? Inspite of being very rich with natural resources such as oil? Are they able to maintain law and order or infact bring about development/growth? Why not?
O yeah, the guys there believe its important to live by Quran, and thus recite it and try reliving 610 AD.
Is that what Qurans says?
I'll tell u an example of that attititude and blindness. There was this highly religious old man who just kept making babies though he could not afford to take care of them. When asked why he did that, he quoted that God has asked to produce children and as for the upbringing and affording, God would take care of it.1731 Kill not your children for fear of want We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin.
Is this what God meant by that verse? But thats how he understood what God said. People abuse and misuse Quranic verses to stay in ignorance and manipulate it to use to their advantage.
And this is what happens when u do that.
The focus should be on living life righteously and striving for wisdom and knowledge, which is the message of the Quran. U dont do any good if u hold the book in ur hand and stare at it religiously.
Look at pakistan and India for example. Two countries who started from square one at the same time.
Pakistan( a country with muslims and hence no differences based on religion) focussed on religion and is still struggling to come out of blind beliefs and practices, which is hampering its growth as well.
India( a country with many religions and hence differences) focussed on growth and develoment, instead, and guess what? All the people who got educated( muslims and non muslims) stopped doing nonsense their ancestors did. Why? Coz they woke up. Coz they realised. Coz their eyes are open. Thats what knowledge and wisdom does to one. There are still illiterates who practice crude beliefs in india as well, but the majority have woken up.
5. We live in a society where most of the people are prepared to think beyond religious differences.
People want to be united by the humanity factor first. Is that so wrong? Does Quran say human beings should not be united and live by righteous values? Doesnt Quran command tolerance and compassion? Doesnt Quran command a righteous life?
What are we doing wrong then? -
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SaLaM PM
First of all, brilliant post. I swear women have a way with these things. loollll. Second, a bit about monarchy. According to what is being said, the messenger will NEVER be wrong. HE will be THE BEST OF THE BEST in making judgement. Quran says there can be no man like that. So assuming the whole 'messenger can be the only one who rules us' is true then even if the he is wrong, there aint a damn thing we can do about that coz he is the messenger. That in itself goes againt what God teaches in the Quran, gospel and Torah.