Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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Salaam all,
Jaxal wroteA society cannot be based on Quran becoz the Quran wasnt meant to run a society.
How do you know that so well? So you think Quran is only a guide nothing else!?
Hmn I think Quran can be more than just a guide, I see Quran as a lifeline or something, you hold on to it and won't let it go if you are familiar with it.
Sis Pm you don't either think that Quran can contains enough laws for creating a society.
But this isn't about how many laws there actually is in Quran, I mean we can create an islamic state with these laws and with a big portion of freethinking when we already have achieved high morals.
Quran teaching alot of morals with its many sayings of right and wrong and based on that we can have so high good moral so we can create an state, why not!?
I really can't believe why we can't create a state when we have goodness in our souls.
Or you want to live in this corrupted world forever!?
I know we can all achieve peace even if we live like we are today but why not strive for something better?
I think it's so sad to see that so many of you don't trust Quran like it should be trusted.
I'm living by Quran and for me it's not only a nice book in the bookshelfs.
Peace Sis Majidah
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Peace,
Is that so? Quranic verses please?
When I said, "Of Course not!" I was sentimentalizing with you that Allah does not mention those rusul/envoys who shall be coming.
Well, God did mention the arrival of prophet Mohammed in gospel. is that nonsesnsical? Now, I wouldnt do that.
And heres some good reading
http//www.islamworld.net/Muhammad.in.Bible.htmlSorry but I'm a student of the Bible and the idea of a prophet like Moses being a referrence to Muhammad in the Old Testament is not true according to my studies. Your author states
'JESUS IS A GOD', but Moses is not God. Is this true?"
In the Bible the term God refers to authority figures such as kings or governers . Moses was God according the the scripture. Jesus, like Moses , had had intimate relations with God, and Jesus too was given authority .
Like Moses Jesus will speak not of his own accord, but of the Father's accord.
Looks like u r contradicting Allah's statement here. Has He said that He perfected the religion before Quran in any previous scriptures? Perfecting something means the absolute best.
Allah has completed the favour to all nabiyeen and rusul .
what assumptions am I making?
You have assumed that supposedly Allah had only completed the deen at a certain point, where other rusul were only given an incomplete version. Since it is this way, you say that NOW people are expected to have certain responsibilities which Allah has already expected from the people from before this. Those people who, were not given a complete, or perfected deen.
Are u not the one assuming that there are more messengers to come to govern mankind in the Quranic way and we should wait around for them?
You have no idea as of yet what I believe?
no, i asked u if it was a fact stated in the Quran.
You asked if it was my opinion.
so, is 'more nabi/rasul to come' ur assumption
I said yes. Is it a fact that more will come, in my opinion, yes it is a fact.
And u have agreed it is just ur opinion in the matter and not a fact stated in the Quran.
No I did not. I never agreed with you that it was not a fact.
Allah does not change His sunna/method and never mentioned that He will stop sending rusul.
Peace Nabi! No ill founded tactics here. I merely stated what u said.
Your first question was whether or not it was my assumption. Then when I said yes it is my opinion you said that I agreed it was not a fact. This is how you were being unfair, by saying I said something I did not. Here, I'll put the discussion in chronological order for you so that maybe you can grasp what I'm talking about.
so, is 'more nabi/rusul to come' ur assumption?
In my opinion yes, there will be more.
so, u agree, its just ur opinion. and not a clear fact stated in the Quran. Peace!
You did ask my opinion did you not?
==I then refer you to that earlier post.==
So I gave you my opinion. Let's not resort to ill-founded tactics.
I hope that clarifies.
there are no ayatin in Quran stating that Allah will keep sending messengers until the final day or infact after prophet Mohammed, to govern mankind.
There are signs explaining Allah's method and not sending anymore rusul is not part of them, any of them.
A very nonsensical use of Allah verse!(the Al-kafirin one)
Explain howso. What do you take from those signs?
I acknowledge 'seal of the prophets' and 'prefected the religion' and ' completed my favour'.
You can acknowledge what you do not understand.
So, that indicates a stop.
Not according to my studies.
Like I said anything can happen.
No not really. Allah is not spontaneously changing what He should and should not do. His method is one which involves the sending of rusul to the nations.
God can send more prophets or may not send any.
He did not say that He will stop sending rusul.
He makes those decissions according to His will. He knows it all. I do not know the future nor do u. He does. He for sure has not told us to wait around for prophets in His last message, to govern mankind.
I never said one should be latent. Nor do I agree with your opinion. Nor have you shown me an ayat that says Allah will stop sending rusul.
Nabi, there is no point ranting the same over and over.
Then you should stop.
I gave u 2 verses but u do not acknowledge them.
I do not know what you are referring to.
What 2 signs did you show me to acknowledge?
When i asked u to give me one verse that said Allah will send more prophets after Prophet Mohammed, u failed to do so.
Lady, I already gave you such a sign.
u quote 251. Allah has been talking of Moses and jesus and other pasr apostles in the verses 244- 250. in 251, i find Allah adressing Prophet Mohammed who has joined the rank of the other apostles who came before Him.
What?? I did not make such a quote nor do I know how it pertains to 251.
if indeed Allah decides to send a messenger, it will be very evident.
when Prophet Mohammed came, there were clear signs. Allah also challenged mankind then, to produce any verse like Quran.
so, whatever the sign be, it will be very clear and evident. and So will the message from God. The real purpose of the messenger is only to convey the message of God.What were the clear signs Muhammad came with and what are the clear signs that will be evident to you? What is this message that God will send along with these clear signs? The rasool is not a mere postman lady. His duties extend beyond bringing the message.
u said we need messengers to govern mankind from time to time and we cant do without them.
I did not say we can't do without rusul.
where in Quran does Allah say that?
1st where did I say that?
Infact some of the messengersof the past(like jesus) didnt govern their people.they only conveyed the message from God.
Really?
I ask why do we need messengers to govern mankind justly, coz Allah never said any such thing that only mesengers are capable of governing mankind.
I agree. We see the Queen of Sheba governing her people just as Solomon did his.
Anyways, as I said this is just pointless and I see no sense in going on again and again saying the same thing.
Peace to u!Yes, you should stop. Thank you.
that is a cheap retreat!
No it's not.
But who cares?
Maybe you do since you felt the need to respond.
u obviously think u r the most wise and most knowledegable. Believe what u want!
You're wrong. I said you're don't seem familiar with quranic concepts. That does not make me all-knowing.
looks like i wasted my time after all. i thought i was discussing with a human being and not a being who knew it all.
I think you think too much.
The way i see it, u dont have any answers or any facts to prove ur claims.
I know. )
And ur arrogance is evident as well when u say u r more familiar with the book than me or anyone else!
I never said that. That's what you get out of me sating that you're not too familiar with quranic concepts. A clear indication of how people, like yourself, can blow things out of proportion.
Believe what u want.
I do.
I am not here to say I am great. So, I would not join the parade.
Parade? I see no parade.
Joe
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whew! what a post! there is so much ego out here that i am kinda suffocating!
am gonna go for some fresh air! ) -
The questions are simple, clear and easy to grasp
1] Who is the messenger today
2] Who were the messengers in the last 1400 years who goverened their kingdom under laws sctriclty from the QuranSeem 2 very simple questions to me anyone care to answer?
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salaa,
I'm living by Quran and for me it's not only a nice book in the bookshelfs.
I suppose it tells you at what speed to travel as well, please also let me know so I can also drive as written in the Quran.
Regards -
salaam
Peace Stillearning,
See post #342.
Sorry some defect with my computer I cannot seem to make out the present day messenger or all those for the past 1400 years. Please do you mind simply repeatingg their names for me. Thanks.
Regatds -
Peace,
I suppose it tells you at what speed to travel as well, please also let me know so I can also drive as written in the Quran.
Why do you have such a supposition?
Do you feel al-quran is of necessity today?
If not do you agree with the following
so if u see, the purpose was to bring law and order, in accordance to the conditions that exsisted then!
Do you believe that Allah has given laws in alkitab?
If so, how does one implement them in a society which may already have a set of laws.
Do you believe people, say 3000 years ago, were less civilized than we are today?
Joe
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Peace,
Sorry some defect with my computer I cannot seem to make out the present day messenger or all those for the past 1400 years. Please do you mind simply repeatingg their names for me. Thanks.
A defect with your computer is preventing you from seeing a modern rasool? What has that got to do with what I said to you anyways?
If you will read post #342 I will not need to repeat what was said already.
Joe
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salaam
The questions are simple, clear and easy to grasp
1] Who is the messenger today
2] Who were the messengers in the last 1400 years who goverened their kingdom under laws sctriclty from the QuranSeem 2 very simple questions to me anyone care to answer?
I still have not seen the answer to the above questions-are they really that difficult?
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Dear Stillearning,
The questions are simple, clear and easy to grasp
1] Who is the messenger today
2] Who were the messengers in the last 1400 years who goverened their kingdom under laws sctriclty from the QuranSeem 2 very simple questions to me anyone care to answer?
I still have not seen the answer to the above questions-are they really that difficult?
I will answer now. If you could be so kind as to ACKNOWLEDGE the answer this time as opposed to just ignoring it.
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Who is the messenger today ? I don't know, I haven't met one yet.
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Who were messengers for last 1400 years? I don't know. I trust al-quraan and my experiences only. Not historical reports.
Now let me ask you, what do your questions prove? I'd like to see if you're honest enough to engage this question instead of your usual tactic of throwing it over your shoulder sir. Thank you.
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salaam mquran
Against my own better judgement I am reponding to your post.
I am astonished that you feel I have not answered your questions. I cannot recall many answers from you other than vague ramblings I will try for possibly the last time. If we stick to numbers then it migght help
(1) You are correct that I said democracy, not perfect, is best system to date-no response reqd
(2) According to you, correct me if I am mistaken, that the best system is NOT DEMOCRACY but the one according to the rasul.
(3) Does it not logically follow that we need the rasul to give us the rules for any society to function and I have given you simple examples of the rules required.
(4) So let us assume that I accept your arguement that the rasul will give us the best rules
(5) So we come to the cruical question-Who is the rasul that will give simple laws to you and me.
Let us deal with what you have raised first then I will deal with your assertion what my questions prove.
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I am glad that you are answering his question.
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SaLaM LT
I merely commented that when other people are not responding to your questions directly, sometimes it is best to leave them alone and not get irate about it...
Do you think if you would have told him to get down on his al-knees and bark like a al-dog, he would done it? loooooooollll coz you seem to have some leash on him wink
Can you not see the difference between two sentences of your own writing Jaxal
LT i dont know what you are looking at but no.. i dont see any difference between the two statments. Perhaps its your old age causing you to see something thats not there.... old chap? wink
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SaLaM SM
How do you know that so well? So you think Quran is only a guide nothing else!?
Becoz that is all it is. Infact SM, did you know , you dont even need the Quran to be a guided? Quran is just a book. An altered, corrupt, abused book. Its not the physical book that matters. Its the spiritual message that God breathed into us when he created us that matters.
But this isn't about how many laws there actually is in Quran,
Ofcourse it is SM. The Quran was never a book of laws. The Quran was never a book on how to run a country for dummies. The Quran was never there to tell me how to be a politician. It was simply there to guide. That is about it.
Quran teaching alot of morals with its many sayings of right and wrong and based on that we can have so high good moral so we can create an state, why not!?
That is what i am saying. Quan has only given us moral fabric. It is our job to look at that moral fabric and derieve the laws.
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SaLaM stillearning
(3) Does it not logically follow that we need the rasul to give us the rules for any society to function and I have given you simple examples of the rules required.
(4) So let us assume that I accept your arguement that the rasul will give us the best rules
(5) So we come to the cruical question-Who is the rasul that will give simple laws to you and me.
There it is. All its shining glory. we need the messenger. Messenger is sooooo important. But umm... right now.... we dont know who the messenger is. WE dont even know if there ever WAS a messenger. So all this time, people have been getting it wrong becoz there was no messenger. I think tht alone explains the absurdity.
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Salaam Stillearnig
Against my own better judgement I am reponding to your post.
If your judgement is 'better', then why go against it?
I am astonished that you feel I have not answered your questions. I cannot recall many answers from you other than vague ramblings I will try for possibly the last time. If we stick to numbers then it migght help
It might.
(1) You are correct that I said democracy, not perfect, is best system to date-no response reqd
(2) According to you, correct me if I am mistaken, that the best system is NOT DEMOCRACY but the one according to the rasul.
(3) Does it not logically follow that we need the rasul to give us the rules for any society to function and I have given you simple examples of the rules required.
(4) So let us assume that I accept your arguement that the rasul will give us the best rules
(5) So we come to the cruical question-Who is the rasul that will give simple laws to you and me.
Let us deal with what you have raised first then I will deal with your assertion what my questions prove.
once again, i have not met the rasul, so i dont know
ball is in your court. Please address my question what does this prove ?
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With due respects to you mquran, I did not use those words exactly (I have the transcript of our conversations). You raised the point that Jaxal was annoying you. I merely commented that when other people are not responding to your questions directly, sometimes it is best to leave them alone and not get irate about it...
Hardly annoying. I was just wondering how long it would take to get this person to understand. I think at this rate, monkeys would evolve and understand your point before this person does. The Quran actually predicted about people who worse like cattle who do not understand (7/179) It was good advice though, peacefulmuslim and stillearning have actually understood what joe and my points were and however small, progress has been made.
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And Mquran, its pretty lame to label people who disagree with u as kafirs.
try correcting urself coz u r not the best of mankind nor r u the judge.PM, I'M not labelling. Al-quraan does the labelling. Is it my fault if it doesn't agree with your thinking. You apply historical elements to it but al-quraan categorically denies it. Im not saying you're a kafir. Im just saying the quran explicitly labels your act. So come off it , please. Unlike some, you actually discuss with sincerety. Bring your ayaat as evidence and we can continue.
And ur second escape seems to be throwing label of sunnism on people who disagree with u.
I understand Quran and the way i see it, Allah doesnt tell us to blinfold ourselves, or call each other names or act arrogant.
Peace!Sunnism is an ideology. If you follow its philosophy or approach, then you're a sunni. I conject that your tafseer methodology mirrors sunnism's approach. This is why im telling you this. Al-quraan doesn't approve of this method. It calls those who think its a historical text as kafireen. So if you're a believer, why are you still doing it?
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Salaam sis Majidah,
SMHow do you know that so well? So you think Quran is only a guide nothing else!?
Hmn I think Quran can be more than just a guide, I see Quran as a lifeline or something, you hold on to it and won't let it go if you are familiar with it.
Al-quraan is a guide correct and we need to hold on to it. What does a guide do ? It provides you LAWS which if you follow, you will be evolved. This is whole point of al-quraan. This person cannot even understand what a guide does and so there's no point in saying anything to this person. He doesn't even know what part of al-quraan is authentic since he claims the quran is corrupted despite proof to the contrary.