DO AYATS 5:5 AND 6:146, PRECLUDE THE PIG AS BEING HARAM...?
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PEACE, TO ALL,
Please pardon this, yet, another spin-off of the thread.. "Is Swine Halal". Hopefully, this will be the last.
To date, none of my opponents i.e. Marie, Savage Carrot, Tanveer, Jm, Jaxal, Sweden, have been able to overcome the following analysis. If my analysis is incorrect, then, I am hoping that Layth, Wakas, Joe, Idol, Ayman, Idris, Someone, or whoever, will step in and expose the flaw in it. It is my understanding that, when the following two ayats are taken together, they absolutely preclude the pig, either in whole or part, as being haram for food for the eater to eat.
6146 And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws/talons, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.
55 This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them;...
This is my understanding. At the time Al-Quran was being revealed, the species of animal, the pig, was not haram to the People of the Book i.e the Jews. This is my understanding, because Allah chooses His Words and means what He says, meaing, Allah made an entire category/species of animals haram to the Jews i.e. those with claws. Now, given the very fundamental fact/reality that pigs do not have claws, absolutely precludes their species of animals as being one of the species of haram animals. With this in mind then, because Allah did not make the pig haram to the Jews and, even if the Jews did forbid to themselves, it was not by Allah's Decree, that they did this, hence, the pig, at the the time Al-Quran was being revealed, was not by Allah's Decree an haram species. Given that the pig was not haram, ayat 55, clearly, tells us that the food of the People of the Book is lawful to us, hence, the pig, has to be halal to us, because it was never haram to the People of the Book in the first place and their food is halal for us.
- /JM/, wrote We have no direct knowledge of whether or not God forbade the Jews to eat pig. The torah may have been altered, so, it cannot be regarded as a reliable source of knowledge.
Now, Allah, per ayat 55, tells us that the food of the People of the Book/the Jews, is halal for us and vice versa. I've established without doubt that, prior to Al-Quran, the pig was not haram, because there exists no Quranic evidence to support such a claim, (JM, backs this up), thus, the pig, at the time Al-Quran is being revealed, is halal for the Muslim, because it was halal for the Jews/People of the Book, in that, it was NEVER haram to them in the first place. The fat of oxen and sheep and clawed animals become halal for the People of the Books/Jews, because these things were never haram for mankind in general in the first place, just for the Jews in particular, as punishment for their transgressions and not due to these things being in and of themselves rijsun/fasiqun/unhealthy for the eater to eat.
Now, prior to Allah taking away clawed animals and the fat of oxen and sheep (as punishment to the Jews), these things WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE BEEN HALAL for the Jews, otherwise, if they were already haram, how does Allah punish them? Does He make them MORE haram? Where is the pig haram before Al-Quran? Does Allah, before He revealed His Quran, decree that the pig was haram? If not, then ayats 55 and 6146, destroys the argument that the pig, either in part or whole, is haram as food.
Now, unless I've missed something in these two ayats, I don't see how the pig, either in whole or part, can possibly be haram.
Looking forward to your replies.
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If you think the evanagel, or Gospel, or the New Testament says that pig is bad then you must read it again. It is taught that it is not what enters the mouth that is dirty, it is what proceeds therefrom that is.Joe
Joe, Math 511 in the Gospel is talking about a different type of Unclean than what the food laws of the OT is talking about. The food laws of the OT list the foods that are Physicaly Unclean and unhealthy.
But in Math 511 Jesus is talking about what is spiritualy Unclean NOT physicaly unclean.
When the disciples questioned him about it, Jesus explained further in Math 1517-20 to make it clear he was talking about spiritual cleaneness.
Mat 1517 Perceive ye not, that whatsoever goeth into the mouth passeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 1518 But the things which proceed out of the mouth come forth out of the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 1519 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, railings
Mat 1520 these are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not the man. -
Priest
Can you provide me with any historical evidence of Muslims eating Pork, or even discussing that it is Halal or Haram?? I will be thankful.
I have no idead. My concern is not the history written by man, but what Allah has revealed in Al-Quran.
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I have no idead. My concern is not the history written by man, but what Allah has revealed in Al-Quran.
MUHAMMAD(PIUH) was there to explain the Quran, and we find no historical evidence which shows eating of posk during his time by Muslims.
Therfore it can safely be concluded that Quran never said Pork is Halal.
And the vice versa is just your wishful thinking.Allah Ho Akbar.
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Salaam all,
An interesting thing is to find out where the pigs are coming from, I mean where are they in their wild nature located!?
Today we have farmers who breed pigs for their meats and skins.
Was there wild pigs in SAUDI ARABIA during the time of Prophet Muhammad?
Peace
Sis Majidah -
I have no idead. My concern is not the history written by man, but what Allah has revealed in Al-Quran.
MUHAMMAD(PIUH) was there to explain the Quran, and we find no historical evidence which shows eating of posk during his time by Muslims.
Therfore it can safely be concluded that Quran never said Pork is Halal.
And the vice versa is just your wishful thinking.Allah Ho Akbar.
You have no idea what the Last Prophet ate or didn't eat. Where you there in his presence to know for a fact what he ate or didn't eat or are you simply taking the so-called "historical reports" of others as to what he ate or didn't eat? Your conclusion is simply ignorant.
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You have no idea what the Last Prophet ate or didn't eat. Where you there in his presence to know for a fact what he ate or didn't eat or are you simply taking the so-called "historical reports" of others as to what he ate or didn't eat? Your conclusion is simply ignorant.
Funny indeed!
I asked; can you provide me any Historical evidence that Muslims eat the Pig? or even they discussed about it being Halal or Haram?
and you answeredI Have No idea.
And now you call me Ignorant. roll
Wow, just looking at your logic
Where you there in his presence to know for a fact what he ate or didn't eat or are you simply taking the so-called "historical reports" of others as to what he ate or didn't eat?
One can assume a lot.
I have never been to the MOON, I never met Armstrong, but I read What Armstrong tells us.
I never met any of Mughal emperors, but I know what they ate, through history.hmmmmmm a Priest??
How can we be sure there was Jesus?? no existing priest ever met him.
Well I think churches should reconsider their induction policy for Priests. -
Salaam all,
I think I must defend Pb here!
My understanding is that Pb wants to follow Al-Quran as the only true source, then he can't look in the history books.
If you want to be a true believer in God and his scripture then you'll have to study Quran and verify what's in there.
Much things in Quran isn't literal but instead it telling us a story behind it so i can figure it out if I lay down some energy on it.
My understanding is that you cannot take each word in Quran for what it is you'll have to look behind the word or read between the lines sometimes.
That is what God wants us to do, to study to dig for knowledge and not only get all served on a plate.
Peace
Sis Majidah -
Salaam Br Jaxal,
Well not I, but other people don't have to be so smart as I am
God is advice us about what can harm us and therefore we should take his advice seriously.
I don't eat red meats only fish and I'm nearly a vegetarian so i think I take God's advice for real.
To eat healthy is a good way.
Peace
Sis Majidah -
Raj-ah,
PBM You have no idea what the Last Prophet ate or didn't eat. Where you there in his presence to know for a fact what he ate or didn't eat or are you simply taking the so-called "historical reports" of others as to what he ate or didn't eat? Your conclusion is simply ignorant.
Funny indeed! I asked; can you provide me any Historical evidence that Muslims eat the Pig? or even they discussed about it being Halal or Haram? and you answered I Have No idea. And now you call me Ignorant. roll Wow, just looking at your logic.
History, as many so rightly define it as, is nothing more than agreed upon fiction/opinion/conjecture. If you found out that the Last Prophet did eat pork...would you believe it? If that information did come out others would counter by claiming that that "historical report" is false. So, who would be right? Al-Quran has no doubt in it about what it discusses/provides guidance on. You should endeavor to emulate my logic.
Where you there in his presence to know for a fact what he ate or didn't eat or are you simply taking the so-called "historical reports" of others as to what he ate or didn't eat?
One can assume a lot.
Allah, per ayats 733 and 1736, makes assumption making/opinion making, about Him and and His Deen...haram. Go and read the ayats for yourself.
I have never been to the MOON, I never met Armstrong, but I read What Armstrong tells us. I never met any of Mughal emperors, but I know what they ate, through history.
You don't know, that is, for a fact, any of the above. You simply have come to believe fervently what others have told you about the above, but you don't know for a fact, because you didn't personally witness any of it. Study the following
- Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram/unlawful are indecencies, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.
1736 And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.
Ayat/proof 378, tell us there will be those among mankind, who will say Allah, His Deen, His Quran, and His Messenger, that which Allah did not say of those subjects. Ayat/proof 733, tells mankind it is haram/forbidden to say anything of Allah with out knowledge And, ayat/proof 1736, warns mankind not to pursue anything of which he has no knowledge.
2844 You were not on the Western side when We decreed the Commission to Moses, nor were you a witness.
2844 Wama kunta bijanibi algharbiyyi ith qadayna ila moosa alamra wama kunta mina ashshahideen.
Main Entry SHAHIDA to be present with that which is witnessed. page 299
Main Entry WITNESS see for oneself one who has personal knowledge of something something serving as evidence or proof.
Main Entry PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE done in person without the intervention of another.
Main EntryRAMA to throw, cast, hit, blame, cast on, charge to speak conjecturally.page 223
Main Entry IMPRESSION a vague idea in which some confidence is placed.
Main Entry OPINION belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge.
Main Entry CONJECTURE supposition inference from defective or presumptive evidence b a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork.
From the above ayat/proof and definitions then, when one speaks of a person or an event and was not a witness to either, then, that individual isn't speaking from personal knowledge, hence, cannot be called a shahideen/witness. When an individual relates a story of a person or an event and was not a witness, then that story is...hearsay.
Main Entry HEARSAY EVIDENCE evidence based on what someone has told the witness and not of direct knowledge The evidence of those who relate, not what they know themselves, but what they have heard from others.
When one loses focus of the above ayat and definitions, the following is the result
5328 And they have no knowledge of it; they do not follow anything but conjecture, and surely conjecture does not avail against the truth at all.
6116 And if you obey/follow the majority of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow nothing but conjecture and they only lie.
hmmmmmm a Priest?? How can we be sure there was Jesus?? no existing priest ever met him. Well I think churches should reconsider their induction policy for Priests.
My forum name, Priest Bokmei, has nothing at all to do with Christianity, but with the alleged founder of White Eyebrow/Bok Mei Kung-fu. Your ignorance continues to manifest itself.
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PEACE SWEDEN,
I think I must defend Pb here! My understanding is that Pb wants to follow Al-Quran as the only true source, then he can't look in the history books. If you want to be a true believer in God and his scripture then you'll have to study Quran and verify what's in there.
Thank you for your support on this point. Yes, you are correct. Al-Quran, for its purpose, that is, to Guide
Main EntryGUIDANCE/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
is the only source of guidance for mankind.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, TO ALL,
Many destitute people around the world, to survive,...eat smelly bad looking things for food. (
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"Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah."
Say, "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except (1) carrion, (2) running blood, (3) the meat of pigs, for it is contaminated, and (4) the meat of animals blasphemously dedicated to other than GOD." If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
I have choosed these two verses from the chapters that you quoted, to show you if that is so? what you are trying to propogate than it means there is a claer contradiction in QURAN, but NO that is not the case Dear Priest. For a Muslim above verses are more than enough to believe what Quran is saying clearly but for you and Swedish lady we have to analyze it further.
The priest base his arguments on following verses
For those who are Jewish we prohibited animals with undivided hoofs; and of the cattle and sheep we prohibited the fat, except that which is carried on their backs, or in the viscera, or mixed with bones. That was a retribution for their transgressions, and we are truthful.
55] Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you, *. Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.and tries to tell us that Swine is not Haram as is clearly mentioned in other verses.
He statesThis is my understanding. At the time Al-Quran was being revealed, the species of animal, the pig, was not haram to the People of the Book i.e the Jews
Albion noting the blunder in his statements quickly comes in for his support and with complete dishonesty or ignorance discusses some chapters like mathew of bible and leaves the main issue discussed in Leviticus.
Here are some verses open to discussion for all
"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you".
"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."
And then Deutronomy
"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass."
So wht you say Now? my dear priest.
The translation is from KINGS JAMES of Leviticus and can be checked
It is not from me. winkSwedish Lady
Salaam all,
I think I must defend Pb here!
Yes; please go on.
SaLaM Raj-ah
Excellent point
THanks JAXAL.
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Raj-ah,
"Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah."
Say, "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except (1) carrion, (2) running blood, (3) the meat of pigs, for it is contaminated, and (4) the meat of animals blasphemously dedicated to other than GOD." If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
I have choosed these two verses from the chapters that you quoted, to show you if that is so? what you are trying to propogate than it means there is a claer contradiction in QURAN, but NO that is not the case Dear Priest. For a Muslim above verses are more than enough to believe what Quran is saying clearly but for you and Swedish lady we have to analyze it further.
LOL! My Dear Raj-ah, you and the vast majority of the so-called Muslims, continue to, and erroneously so, mistranslate khinzerin as pig and this is why you imagine that I'm in contradiction with Al-Quran.
The priest base his arguments on following verses
For those who are Jewish we prohibited animals with claws/thufur; and of the cattle and sheep we prohibited the fat, except that which is carried on their backs, or in the viscera, or mixed with bones. That was a retribution for their transgressions, and we are truthful.
"Undivided hoof", is gross mistranslation. Thafara, means claws/talons. See
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The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, by Omar, pg. 350.
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The Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, by Wehr, pg. 581.
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The English-Arabic Translator Dictionary, by Steinglass, pg. 146.
None of these dictionaries translates thafara, as hoof. Look it up for yourself.
Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you, ...
and tries to tell us that Swine is not Haram as is clearly mentioned in other verses. He states
PBM This is my understanding. At the time Al-Quran was being revealed, the species of animal, the pig, was not haram to the People of the Book i.e the Jews.
Albion noting the blunder in his statements quickly comes in for his support and with complete dishonesty or ignorance discusses some chapters like mathew of bible and leaves the main issue discussed in Leviticus.
Here are some verses open to discussion for all
"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you".
"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."
(Leviticus 117-And then Deutronomy "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass." (Deuteronomy 14
So wht you say Now? my dear priest.
The translation is from KINGS JAMES of Leviticus and can be checked
It is not from me. winkLOL! What say I, you ask? Let me ask you the following
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Is Al-Quran the The Book of Guidance for mankind or is the Torah the Book of Guidance for mankind or...are both Books the Guidance for mankind? If you need a clue, please look at ayat 2185 wink
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Is Al-Quran without error or doubt? Is the Torah without error or doubt? Are both Books without error or doubt? Or, do both Books contain error and doubt? Tell us what you...know.
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Al-Quran says that...the animals with claws were made haram to the Jews as food, because the Jews transgressed. Now, pigs don't have claws, so, Al-Quran is contradicting the Torah...which do you believe is the true account? They both cannot be the true account.
Swedish Lady Salaam all, I think I must defend Pb here!
Raj-ah Yes; please go on.
Sweden, all praises due to Allah, is beginning to work through the scam.
SaLaM Raj-ah
Excellent point
THanks JAXAL.
Jaxal, has made no points excellent or otherwise.
You are very ignorant of Al-Quran, Raj.
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