CONCLUSION OF THE SWINE DEBATE
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Aidid Safar has also decided to translate lahma khinzeerin by contaminated meat.
(Aidid Safar) Indeed it is only prohibited on you the carrion and the blood and the contaminated meat and what has been legalised by way of - for other than God. Thus whoever is strained without malice and not being deliberate - surely there is no fault on him. Indeed God is forgiving - merciful.
cf http//aididsafar.com/translation.html
PS my rebuttal here
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4031&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=625#55205
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4031&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=625#55493 -
Aidid Safar has also decided to translate lahma khinzeerin by contaminated meat.
(Aidid Safar) Indeed it is only prohibited on you the carrion and the blood and the contaminated meat and what has been legalised by way of - for other than God. Thus whoever is strained without malice and not being deliberate - surely there is no fault on him. Indeed God is forgiving - merciful.
Yes, Aidid, being the rational and non-superstitious individual that he is, has come to the same conclusion that I and many others have as well that, khinzerin cannot and does not mean the specie of animal pig in Al-Quran.
In your "rebuttal" you simply wanted to toss out ayat 6146, but you can't. This ayat, as I have stated many times now, tells us what specie of animals Allah made haram to the Jews/POTB, those with claws. This ayat is so powerful in what it declares that, you cannot/will not work through your denial that, it totally excludes the pig, in that, as an animal, pigs don't have claws. This ayat PROVES three things conclusively
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The specie of animal pig CANNOT and is not represented in the haram animals to the Jews, as it doesn't possess claws.
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That the Jews LIED when they claim that Allah made the pig haram to them.
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In that, the pig was not made haram by Allah to the Jews/POTB, it was then halal. Humans cannot make anything haram that Allah has not.
There is NO rebutting the above three realities and staying within Al-Quran at the same time.
Now, in that, the specie of animal pig was not made haram to the Jews/POTB, it was halal, hence, at the time ayat 55 is being revealed the pig being halal was therefore halal to the those who were given Al-Quran. There is simply NO WAY out this sequence of events...none.
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I'm sorry PBM your bubblling makes no sense especially the Quran said that the pigs were forbidden on the Jew
would you like to see the proof? lol
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Yes, Aidid, being the rational and non-superstitious individual that he is, has come to the same conclusion that I and many others have as well that, khinzerin cannot and does not mean the specie of animal pig in Al-Quran.
I find it funny though that your mentors, you and aidid safar come to the same conclusion based on the stuff that your mentor started touting in the first place?!? I did some research and apparently this contaminated/diseased meat is first argued by your mentor and his wife and then spread over the net (OQS board as well)?!? Have you heard of this before they told it to you for the first time? I haven't read this through any other source. It's just very surprising to me.
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I'm sorry PBM your bubblling makes no sense especially the Quran said that the pigs were forbidden on the Jew
would you like to see the proof? lol
Really, then post the ayat where Al-Quran, definitively, states that the pig was haram to the Jews.
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Yes, Aidid, being the rational and non-superstitious individual that he is, has come to the same conclusion that I and many others have as well that, khinzerin cannot and does not mean the specie of animal pig in Al-Quran.
I find it funny though that your mentors, you and aidid safar come to the same conclusion based on the stuff that your mentor started touting in the first place?!? I did some research and apparently this contaminated/diseased meat is first argued by your mentor and his wife and then spread over the net (OQS board as well)?!? Have you heard of this before they told it to you for the first time? I haven't read this through any other source. It's just very surprising to me.
Yes, my mentors did raise this first, but what is your point? Aidid Safar, having wide depth and breadth of knowledge in the Arabic, as well as, being rational and non-superstitious, came to the same conclusion as my mentors. What is the difficulty here, I don't see any. Looking to your reply.
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Yes, my mentors did raise this first, but what is your point? Aidid Safar, having wide depth and breadth of knowledge in the Arabic, as well as, being rational and non-superstitious, came to the same conclusion as my mentors. What is the difficulty here, I don't see any. Looking to your reply.
I think they are all linked like the borg.
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I'm sorry PBM your bubblling makes no sense especially the Quran said that the pigs were forbidden on the Jew
would you like to see the proof? lol
Really, then post the ayat where Al-Quran, definitively, states that the pig was haram to the Jews.
do you think I'm kiddin or somethin? wink
but I have a problem in hand, you don't speak arabic and consequently you don't understand arabic, I'm not saying I will present a grammar refute, no, I know you will never understand it as a non arabic speaker rather something else you never heard of as a non arabic speaker
I don;t want to waste my valued time, but I have a suggestion, how about you nominate an arabic speaker member that you trust so I can explain it to him, while you shut up and watch
you see I'm trying to help a non arabic confused muslim and a brother like you
your call
peace
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In your "rebuttal" you simply wanted to toss out ayat 6146, but you can't. This ayat, as I have stated many times now, tells us what specie of animals Allah made haram to the Jews/POTB, those with claws. This ayat is so powerful in what it declares that, you cannot/will not work through your denial that, it totally excludes the pig, in that, as an animal, pigs don't have claws. This ayat PROVES three things conclusively
- The specie of animal pig CANNOT and is not represented in the haram animals to the Jews, as it doesn't possess claws.
I have decided not not talk anymore with PB because he has been unrespectful to me.
But I will try to give you a chance, hoping that, with this new identity,
- you will not duck out my questions, or refuse to respond to them
- you will not do as if you don't understand what I write
- you will not repeat again and again the same refuted arguments.
- you will try to be logic, honest, and to avoid bad faith
If you do not respect this line of conduct with me, our dialog will cease again.
Here are some food restrictions availing to the jews (assuming is about the jews)
- As a punishment for their rebellion ()
- all that have claws
- the fat of the cattle and the sheep (except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone)
- As it is foul (|6145])
- what is already dead
- blood
- lahma khinzeerin (the flesh of swine)
So, as you can see, is not exhaustive about the food restrictions to the jews. There are also food restrictions to them in .
Now, the food restrictions listed in are only valid to the jews because of their rebellion. They do not apply to the muslims after the revelation of the quran.
So, had the pig had claws, this would have changed nothing for us, because does not apply anymore.But the food restrictions listed in , including lahma khinzeerin, apply to the jews, as well as to us.
A priori, lahma khinzeerin can mean either "ill-seaming flesh", or "flesh of swine", but, because of the grammatical inconsistency put forth by Marie (among others), it can mean only "flesh of swine"
So, the flesh of swine is haram to us (as well as to the jews).
Peace
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Peace JM
very short and to the point, i hope PBM gets it this time, but do you mind if I ask, do you speak arabic?
peace
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Peace JM
very short and to the point, i hope PBM gets it this time, but do you mind if I ask, do you speak arabic?
peace
No, alas, I don't.
Nut I am learning it. -
Yes, my mentors did raise this first, but what is your point? Aidid Safar, having wide depth and breadth of knowledge in the Arabic, as well as, being rational and non-superstitious, came to the same conclusion as my mentors. What is the difficulty here, I don't see any. Looking to your reply.
I think they are all linked like the borg.
Then you would be wrong and very unfair of you to say that.
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ahmedI'm sorry PBM your bubblling makes no sense especially the Quran said that the pigs were forbidden on the Jew
DHULQARNANE Really, then post the ayat where Al-Quran, definitively, states that the pig was haram to the Jews.
ahmed do you think I'm kiddin or somethin? wink
No, I do not thik you are kidding, I know that you are just outright lying about it.
but I have a problem in hand, you don't speak arabic and consequently you don't understand arabic, I'm not saying I will present a grammar refute, no, I know you will never understand it as a non arabic speaker rather something else you never heard of as a non arabic speaker
I don;t want to waste my valued time, but I have a suggestion, how about you nominate an arabic speaker member that you trust so I can explain it to him, while you shut up and watch
you see I'm trying to help a non arabic confused muslim and a brother like you
lol Just as I thought. All you do is run-off at the mouth, but cannot back up what you assert, please. I thought you were going to post the ayat where Allah, definitively, states that He made the pig haram t the Jews...so, where is this ayat? lol
Look, do us both favor and stop pestering me, o.k., thanks. wink
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Here are some food restrictions availing to the jews (assuming is about the jews)
Don't fret, drop the assumption--Jew, and let's simply go with--a people who came before Al-Quran, how's that? wink
- As a punishment for their rebellion ()
- all that have claws
- the fat of the cattle and the sheep (except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone)
Correct.
- As it is foul (|6145])
- what is already dead
- blood- lahma khinzeerin (the flesh of swine)
Why are you connecting ayat 6146 with blood and lahma khinzeer? The ayat does not address those concepts. The ayat is discussing haram species of animals and a particular part of two halal animals. Your deciding ( trying to sneak in) that lahma khinzir means pig, when, obiviously, their not having claws, per ayat 6146, automatically disqualifies them as being haram. Please read the ayat.
So, as you can see, is not exhaustive about the food restrictions to the jews. There are also food restrictions to them in .
Tell you what, post the entire list of animals which Allah made haram to Jews, since you believe, despite what Allah says, that what is contained in ayat 6146, relative to haram species of animals, is not exhaustive. If you cannot or won't do this, then you are conjecturing/opining and assigning something to Allah which you cannot, by His own Word, prove. That, per ayat 733, is HARAM to do.
The rest of your post is irrelevent, unless of course, you can brig the prof I asked for. Let's see what you have wink
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- As it is foul (|6145])
- what is already dead
- blood- lahma khinzeerin (the flesh of swine)
Why are you connecting ayat 6146 with blood and lahma khinzeer?
You have misread me.
The above prohibitions are from .
Please read my message again, and rebut it if you can.Peace
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- As it is foul (|6145])
- what is already dead
- blood- lahma khinzeerin (the flesh of swine)
Why are you connecting ayat 6146 with blood and lahma khinzeer?
You have misread me.
The above prohibitions are from .
Please read my message again, and rebut it if you can.Peace
Pardon, my mistake.
Again, per ayat 6145, you are assuming that lahma khinzeer means the specie of animal the pig. I contend that, per ayat 6146, this cannot be so, because the haram species of animals...all have claws, which, of course, the pig does not.
JM So, as you can see, is not exhaustive about the food restrictions to the jews. There are also food restrictions to them in .
Tell you what, post the entire (name them) list of animals which Allah made haram to Jews, since you believe, despite what Allah says, that what is contained in ayat 6146, relative to haram species of animals, is not exhaustive. If you cannot or won't do this, then you are conjecturing/opining and assigning something to Allah which you cannot, by His own Word, prove. That, per ayat 733, is HARAM to do.
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Again, per ayat 6145, you are assuming that lahma khinzeer means the specie of animal the pig. I contend that, per ayat 6146, this cannot be so, because the haram species of animals...all have claws, which, of course, the pig does not.
Ayat is about prohibitions specific to the jews due to their rebellion.
Ayat is about prohibitions availing to all mankind due to uncleanness.These are 2 different things.
The pig has been prohibited to the jews, not because of their rebellion, but because of its uncleanness.
Assuming khinzeer is pig, there is no contradiction between and .
JM So, as you can see, is not exhaustive about the food restrictions to the jews. There are also food restrictions to them in .
Tell you what, post the entire (name them) list of animals which Allah made haram to Jews, since you believe, despite what Allah says, that what is contained in ayat 6146, relative to haram species of animals, is not exhaustive.
What do you want as a supplement to what I have already listed above ?
i.e.- As a punishment for their rebellion ()
- all that have claws
- the fat of the cattle and the sheep (except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone)
- As it is foul (|6145])
- what is already dead
- blood
- lahma khinzeerin (the flesh of swine)
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4171&start=100#61337
Peace
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Then you would be wrong and very unfair of you to say that.
I guess arab conspiracies are hot and swine conspiracies are not. No matter.
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see following post.
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Again, per ayat 6145, you are assuming that lahma khinzeer means the specie of animal the pig. I contend that, per ayat 6146, this cannot be so, because the haram species of animals...all have claws, which, of course, the pig does not.
JM Ayat is about prohibitions specific to the jews due to their rebellion.
Not only is ayat 6146 about specif things made haram, but the specific species of animal made haram by Allah, are only those with claws (why do you continue to ignore this fact?!), which, of course, excludes the animal pig. Is this not correct, yes or no?
The pig has been prohibited to the jews, not because of their rebellion, but because of its uncleanness.
When did Allah make the pig haram to the Jews, before or after Moses?
Assuming khinzeer is pig, there is no contradiction between and .
LOL! well, the fact that it doesn't mean pig, creates a contradiction. Allah made haram to the Jews animals with claws and seeing how pigs do not have claws, khinzeer, cannot possibly be pig, because that creates a contradiction.
JM So, as you can see, is not exhaustive about the food restrictions to the jews. There are also food restrictions to them in .
DHULQARNANETell you what, post the entire (name them) list of animals which Allah made haram to Jews, since you believe, despite what Allah says, that what is contained in ayat 6146, relative to haram species of animals, is not exhaustive.
Why do you want as a supplement to what I have already listed above ?
i.e.- As a punishment for their rebellion ()
- all that have claws
- the fat of the cattle and the sheep (except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone)
My request is...provide an exhaustive list of other species of animals made haram to the Jews. You cannot claim that the pig was ever haram to the Jews, because as a specie of animal, it is among the species of animals that don't have claws. Thus, Allah, could not have made the pig haram, because as with the sheep and ox ( remember, the sheep and oxen were not haram...just their fat), it too, as a specie animal, has.... hooves and not claws (sheep, goats, oxen, cows, pigs etc. do not have claws and that is why their sepcies were not haram to the Jews. Is this correct, yes or no.
Shahm/fat, although made haram to the Jews, is NOT A SPECIE OF ANIMAL. All species of animals both land and sea which possessed claws were haram to the Jews. Ayat 6146 is making entire species of animals haram due t their having claws and making a particular part of two halal animals, the fat. Specific to the Jews then, the pig is not represented in either of these two groups. Is this correct, yes or no.
Ayat 6145 cannot undo what constitutes a specie of animal, hence, khinzeer, in ayat 6145, cannot mean the specie animal pig, becuase then there would be a contradiction between 6146 and 645.
Looking to your reply.