THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS...ARE NOT MUSLIM AT ALL?
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So what...what is it that that you're soing for?
Because I have no idea why you said This verse obviously adresses the current belivers, those with faith; that is to say alla??n 'aman? - and asks them to have faith in God, the carrier of his message etc...
You're right, m?'m?n might be considered a synonyme thereof...I agree that far.
ok.
I don't really get the question. It's like asking me "what do you think happens to the masseur as he is asked to give massage to customer X"
It is an invitation to do something, that's it.Invitation? these people who are being addressed are 'mumin'. The mumin say 'we hear and we obey' (2/285) so this is no 'invitation' . This is a command and its in command form.
I didn't say there is a difference. Regardless if there is a commandment, encouragement - this verse is not a definition of the word m?'m?n/alla??n 'aman? but contains an encouragement/commandment (call it whatever) to th ones that does have faith already
No, you didn't say there's a difference. Here's what you said
The verse does not imply that alla??n 'aman? is the same thing as m?'m?n, nor does it explain that either one of them IS the one believing in the beliefs stated in that verse, it only encourages them to...God's not running a feel-good course here. The mumin are told to believe in these things. They are not at liberty to choose between these things. Remember, mumin hear and obey. Of course, no one's forcing anyone to be a mumin.
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Salaams SB,
you said" "
is it realy, and you can prove this then!
please show us.
Salaams.
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PEACE, MQURAN,
Main entry SALIMA To be in sound condition well without a blemish safe and sound to surrender to submit blameless faultless clearly proven peace.
Main Entry AMINA To trust be secure be in safety pledge covenant faith
PBM Regardless, by definition, a muslim is one who surrenders to Allah, that is, the indivdual agrees not to be a polytheist. Mumin, that is, conviction, comes later. One, however, cannot reach the status of mumin until one is first a muslim and a muslim does not take other than Allah as his/her guidance.
Disagreed. Please look at this Say "We BELIEVE in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God we are MUSLIMEEN (3/84)
I don't see the point that you are trying to make with ayat 384.
PBM Conclusion Allah demands that only He be served, that is, only His Guidance be follwed. Once an individual takes two or more things for one's guidance, then one cannot claim to be a muslim and is in fact a mushrik.
Once again, disagreed. A muslim is one who submits. He may still have other dieties which he needs to get rid of like as such his own hawaa (25/43). Only when he's done this can he be 'haneefan muslimaan'...No, Ibrahim was called muslim as well as haneef. Therefore he didn't have the disease of shirik. This is different from bani israil who were muslim (as per firaun's recognition in 10/90) but resorted to worshipping the calf after Musa took them across. That's what im trying to get at here. a 'muslim' isnt the same as 'muslim haneefa'. A muslim haneefa truly has achieved the ideal you set.
In the following ayat, Abraham, is referred to as haneefan, but not haneefan muslim.
395 Say "(Allah) speaketh the Truth follow the religion of Abraham, the sane in faith; he was not of the polytheists."
395 Qul sadaqa Allahu fattabiAAoo millata ibraheema haneefan wama kana mina almushrikeen.
Once again, muslim and haneefan muslim, both share the common term----muslim. Muslim, is one who surrenders to Allah and only takes Him alone as God and Guide. Even before Allah mentions Abraham as being haneefan muslim, He identifies him as muslim and, further, Allah, defines muslim as one who is not of the polytheists, hence, you cannot make the term to mean a muslim can be of the polytheists, that would contradict Allah outright. Now, how deep this conviction is another matter, however, the muslim, by definition, stops taking other things as gods/guidance, hence, your quoting 2543, is incorrect. The person in 2543, of set purpose, takes himself/herself as a god, however, in contrast, the muslim renounces any such behavior. Haneefan and mumin, it is my understanding, speaks to a deepening of commitment towards serving Allah alone, however, the first requirement, being muslim/to renounce polytheism, that is, to serve Allah alone, is fulfilled once an individual says "I surrender".
Can you provide an ayat where Allah uses muslim as a negative? What I mean is, if a muslim can be a polytheist as you are suggesting, then where in Al-Quran does Allah identify a muslim as polytheist? I'm not looking for an allusory example or what might be construed as such, but a definitive ayat where muslim is defined as a negative.
Musa for example told his people to trust Allah if they are 'muslimeen'. Clearly, if his people were haneefan, he wouldn't need to say this for they would already be in that state.
What ayat are you referring to?
I repeat the following
Abraham, per ayat 2131, says that he surrenders to Allah and that made him a muslim at that point. In ayat 2135, Allah defines Abraham as not being one of the mushriks/polytheists. Now, in ayat 367, Abraham is defined as haneefan muslim and not a mumin. Remember now, the operative term here is muslim and not mumin and Abraham is not labelled a mumin in these ayats. Do you believe that although Abraham is not labelled a mumin in these ayats that, he had the disease of shirk? Nothing supports that notion at all. Haneefan, that is, determined, suggests that he uninhibited in his muslimness. Can we legitimately equate haneefan muslim and mumin? If so, why does Allah make a disticntion in these terms?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, MQURAN,
Salaams SB,
you said" "
is it realy, and you can prove this then!
please show us.
Salaams.
4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).
4116 Inna Allaha la yaghfiru an yushraka bihi wayaghfiru ma doona thalika liman yashao waman yushrik billahi faqad dalla dalalan baAAeeda.
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Peace PBM,
PBM In the following ayat, Abraham, is referred to as haneefan, but not haneefan muslim
I take the quran as a whole book, so that really doesn't affect my understanding. But what's your point with this statement?
Once again, muslim and haneefan muslim, both share the common term----muslim. Muslim, is one who surrenders to Allah and only takes Him alone as God and Guide. Even before Allah mentions Abraham as being haneefan muslim
If haneefan muslim implies 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen' (never was he associted with shirik), then what's the point of having it there if it means exactly the same thing as 'muslim' ? In effect , 'haneefan muslimaan' would be 'muslim muslim' ?
Can you provide an ayat where Allah uses muslim as a negative? What I mean is, if a muslim can be a polytheist as you are suggesting, then where in Al-Quran does Allah identify a muslim as polytheist? I'm not looking for an allusory example or what might be construed as such, but a definitive ayat where muslim is defined as a negative.
Im thinking of this passage. See early chapter 9 please up to 9/11
But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brothers in ad-deen (fa ikhwaanukum fee ad-deen)..So brotherhood in ad-deen (you might remember that ad-deen in the sight of Allah is al-islaam) is defined by iqamussalaat and itauzzakaat. But who are the 'they' in the verse?
see 9/12 But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith (aimmatul kuffar)...
So you see, it is possible AFTER the submission to violate and return to the state of conflict and kufr.
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PEACE, MUQURAN,
PBM In the following ayat, Abraham, is referred to as haneefan, but not haneefan muslim.
I take the quran as a whole book, so that really doesn't affect my understanding. But what's your point with this statement? If haneefan muslim implies 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen' (never was he associted with shirik), then what's the point of having it there if it means exactly the same thing as 'muslim' ? In effect , 'haneefan muslimaan' would be 'muslim muslim' ?
My point is this, haneefan, isn't changing the meaning of the term muslim, rather, it is a term of emphasis. As I said to you previously, haneefan, that is, determined, suggests that, as a muslim, he was uninhibited/bold/of powerful character. As a muslim, do you think you could fully compare yourself to Abraham?
PBM Can you provide an ayat where Allah uses muslim as a negative? What I mean is, if a muslim can be a polytheist as you are suggesting, then where in Al-Quran does Allah identify a muslim as polytheist? I'm not looking for an allusory example or what might be construed as such, but a definitive ayat where muslim is defined as a negative.
Im thinking of this passage. See early chapter 9 please up to 9/11
But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brothers in ad-deen (fa ikhwaanukum fee ad-deen)...So brotherhood in ad-deen (you might remember that ad-deen in the sight of Allah is al-islaam) is defined by iqamussalaat and itauzzakaat. But who are the 'they' in the verse? see 9/12 But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith (aimmatul kuffar)...So you see, it is possible AFTER the submission to violate and return to the state of conflict and kufr.If I'm not mistaken the ayats you are referring to are not talking about muslims, but the polytheists and unbelievers. Read the context beginning with 91.
Also, as I said prveviously, Allah, has defined the term muslim as one, who is not a polytheist. Are you going to take it upon yourself to change the definition to mean that a muslim can be a polytheist? Wouldn't that contradict Allah directly?
Looking forward to your reply.
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Salam PBM,
My point is this, haneefan, isn't changing the meaning of the term muslim, rather, it is a term of emphasis. As I said to you previously, haneefan, that is, determined, suggests that, as a muslim, he was uninhibited/bold/of powerful character.
Haneefan doesn't mean 'uninhibited/bold/of powerful character'. It means as the Quran implies, a total dissociation from shirik. The phrase 'maa kaana' indicates this.
As a muslim, do you think you could fully compare yourself to Abraham?
If I did, i'd be imam of mankind. But this question of yours is irrelevant to the discussion.
If I'm not mistaken the ayats you are referring to are not talking about muslims, but the polytheists and unbelievers. Read the context beginning with 91
.You're not mistaken. The passage deals 'al-mushrikeen'/'al-kafireen' but once they return, establish as-salaat and render az-zakaat, they are 'brothers in ad-deen' (9/11). Ad-deen, once again is al-islaam (3/19) therefore these people are Muslims once they do this. However, as I've pointed out, as soon as they step out of line, the Muslims are to fight their leaders. So they became kafir once again. Im just pointing out to you, that being a 'muslim' but not haneefa muslim doesnt preclude the possibility of reneging.
Also, as I said prveviously, Allah, has defined the term muslim as one, who is not a polytheist. Are you going to take it upon yourself to change the definition to mean that a muslim can be a polytheist? Wouldn't that contradict Allah directly?
Sir, Allah used the term 'haneefan muslimaan' so if you want to forget that, that's your business.
In my understanding a muslim is one who is outwardly in submission to God's laws. In his heart, he may bear the notions of shirik and kufr and he may rescind his islaam and fall prey to them. However, if he is haneefan musliman, this possibility is nullified. So far, I do not see this in contradiction with the book.
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peace mq,
The passage deals 'al-mushrikeen'/'al-kafireen' but once they return, establish as-salaat and render az-zakaat, they are 'brothers in ad-deen' (9/11). Ad-deen, once again is al-islaam (3/19) therefore these people are Muslims once they do this.
They are not 'Muslims'. Since they are akhw in ad-deen they become Muslims is an assumption. Please refute the following article which discusses this point extensively
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/disproved_salatequalsprayer.htm
Wakas
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Peace Wakas,
They are not 'Muslims'. Since they are akhw in ad-deen they become Muslims is an assumption. Please refute the following article which discusses this point extensively
Please tell me what you think I mean when I say 'muslims' in this context. I don't think you need to prove to me that 'salat' isn't 'prayers', Wakas.
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Salaams SB,
You say
4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).4116 Inna Allaha la yaghfiru an yushraka bihi wayaghfiru ma doona thalika liman yashao waman yushrik billahi faqad dalla dalalan baAAeeda.
But you are missing ? I think, the point .When do you associate other gods with God.
Is making a statue and saying that is The God, Associating?
What is the quranic concept of Associating?
022.017
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.Why is Allah Judging the polytheist if they are indeed where unforgivable?
I do strongly advice checking the ayah?s surrounding 4116 or anywhere such a statement accur ? as I noticed it is always saying this about people who are Zalimeen and not necessarily polytheists.
And remember people of the Book, who say God has a son, are polytheist as well ? I think.
Why are they forgivable?
Gods Blessings.
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peace mq,
Please tell me what you think I mean when I say 'muslims' in this context. I don't think you need to prove to me that 'salat' isn't 'prayers', Wakas.
lol Dude, I know that. Dont be put off by the title of the article, within it, it discusses the point you raised about twb, establish slw, bring zkw, akhw in dyn, dyn = islam, thus they = muslim.
From what I gather, you regard a 'muslim' as one who is outwardly submissive/compliant/conforming/submissive. This is not correct from my reading of 'al quran' in which a mindset/belief is also intermingled for one who is muslim, see 352, 380, 1084 for some examples.
Wakas
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Salaamun alaikum Wakas,
From what I gather, you regard a 'muslim' as one who is outwardly submissive/compliant/conforming/submissive. This is not correct from my reading of 'al quran' in which a mindset/belief is also intermingled for one who is muslim, see 352, 380, 1084 for some examples
Right, its possible to have belief intermingled, sure. However, the guys in 49/14 are clearly not mumin yet. This is where I'm going with this.
Suppose there's an an 'islamic' domain. Anyone who enters it, takes the oath to produce growth, that person's a muslim. However, we know there are guys who get in there but really don't believe in it. These guys may or may not work against the system, depending on which benefits them the most. So these guys are 'legally' muslim, but in the soul sense of the word, they have sowed the seeds of thier own destruction for lack of imaan.
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peace mq,
Suppose there's an an 'islamic' domain. Anyone who enters it, takes the oath to produce growth, that person's a muslim.
I disagree. Where did you get that? They would more closely be termed 'akhw' not 'muslim'. Strictly speaking, if one pledges to establish/uphold the bond (e.g. state law in this case) and bring forth betterment, they are 'akhw' , perhaps more closely called 'citizen' in your context.
So these guys are 'legally' muslim
As far as I'm aware, one cannot be legally 'muslim'.
By the way, I do agree with your original comments in this thread about 'muslim' having nothing to do with 'al quran'.
Wakas
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Peace Wakas,
I disagree. Where did you get that? They would more closely be termed 'akhw' not 'muslim'. Strictly speaking, if one pledges to establish/uphold the bond (e.g. state law in this case) and bring forth betterment, they are 'akhw' , perhaps more closely called 'citizen' in your context.
Akhw in what though? 9/11 says ikhwaanu fee ad-deen. So they are brothers in the ad-deen in sight of Allah (because its AD-deen, not just deen). I dont need to mention to you what ad-deen in the sight of Allah is, Im sure. And yes, a muslim is a 'citizen' in an islamic domain, that domain can even be a home.
As far as I'm aware, one cannot be legally 'muslim'
.In what dimension do you suggest a muslim is, if not 'legally'. If it is spiritual, then what of the hypocrites?
By the way, I do agree with your original comments in this thread about 'muslim' having nothing to do with 'al quran'.
Yes but you're muslim to God's laws which are detailed in Al-quraan, mechanically speaking. Its not possible to be muslim to an abstract Allah.
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peace mq,
Maybe its just me, but I get confused trying to work out what you mean sometimes. P But I'll answer what I think you're asking...
Akhw in what though?
As per your example, an 'islamic' domain. I assumed by that you meant a state.
In what dimension do you suggest a muslim is, if not 'legally'. If it is spiritual, then what of the hypocrites?
Being 'muslim' is personal between you and The God. Can you clarify what you meant by the latter question above.
Its not possible to be muslim to an abstract Allah.
If you're saying its impossible to be a 'muslim' without knowing whats in 'al quran', then I disagree. The God's laws are not only expounded in 'al quran' but they can also be found in the nature/essence of man. A user can successfully utilise an operating system without a manual. The manual is for those who wish to advance.
Wakas
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PEACE, MQURAN,
PBM My point is this, haneefan, isn't changing the meaning of the term muslim, rather, it is a term of emphasis. As I said to you previously, haneefan, that is, determined, suggests that, as a muslim, he was uninhibited/bold/of powerful character.
Haneefan doesn't mean 'uninhibited/bold/of powerful character'. It means as the Quran implies, a total dissociation from shirik. The phrase 'maa kaana' indicates this.
Unfortunately, openburhan.com is down at the moment, however, when I put haneefan into the phonetic search at Islamic Cities, I did not find haneefan to be associated with the Last Prophet. Now, according to your logic, he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik".
Main Entry HANAFA turn away from error to guidance stand firmly on one side one inclining towards a right state or tendency upright man striaght forward. The Dict. of the Holy Quran, by Omar, pg. 139
Main Entry STRAIGHTFORWARD free from evasiveness or obscurity.
Straightforward, does suggest "unhibited"/bold etc., especially, in the time of Abraham.
Main entry SALIMA To be in sound condition well without a blemish safe and sound to surrender to submit blameless faultless clearly proven peace. The Dict. of the Holy Quran, by Omar, pg. 267
Salima, from which the term muslim derives, does not support your conjecture that a muslim can be a polytheist.
Consider the following ayat
152 Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Muslims.
I think you will notice that, Allah, doesn't say they will wish they had been haneefan muslim, but muslim. You will further notice the contrasting of kafirun with Muslim. Kafiruns and hypocrites are polytheists...muslims, haneefan or otherwise, are not.
PBM As a muslim, do you think you could fully compare yourself to Abraham?
If I did, i'd be imam of mankind. But this question of yours is irrelevant to the discussion.
On the contrary, being iman of the nations is another issue. Had he not been muslim first, then he could not have been given the title of Iman to the nations. My question stands...as a muslim, do you think you could fully compare yourself to Abraham? Yes or no?
You're not mistaken. The passage deals 'al-mushrikeen'/'al-kafireen' but once they return, establish as-salaat and render az-zakaat, they are 'brothers in ad-deen' (9/11). Ad-deen, once again is al-islaam (3/19) therefore these people are Muslims once they do this. However, as I've pointed out, as soon as they step out of line, the Muslims are to fight their leaders. So they became kafir once again. Im just pointing out to you, that being a 'muslim' but not haneefa muslim doesnt preclude the possibility of reneging.
Once they return to what?! These people were not Muslims in the first place so how did they become muslims again?! As far as oaths and agreements go, the polytheist, were not required by Allah to give up their beliefs before entering into certain agreements with the muslims or vice versa. If a muslim turns back from faith, which certainly has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen in the future, then, that individual is no longer muslim, but a munafiq. Now, of course, a munafiq can repent and become muslim again, however, if one is not a muslim, then, one is a polytheist. These terms are referring to particular states of action/being.
PBM Also, as I said previously, Allah, has defined the term muslim as one, who is not a polytheist. Are you going to take it upon yourself to change the definition to mean that a muslim can be a polytheist? Wouldn't that contradict Allah directly?
Sir, Allah used the term 'haneefan muslimaan' so if you want to forget that, that's your business.
I'm not forgetting anything, but I think you are. Does Allah not know how to define His Words? I repeat my question Allah, has defined the term muslim, as one who is not a polytheist. Are you going to take it upon yourself to change the definition to mean that a muslim can be a polytheist? Wouldn't that contradict Allah directly (see ayat 151 again)?
In my understanding a muslim is one who is outwardly in submission to God's laws. In his heart, he may bear the notions of shirik and kufr and he may rescind his islaam and fall prey to them. However, if he is haneefan musliman, this possibility is nullified. So far, I do not see this in contradiction with the book.
One can harbor all sorts of things in one's heart. Even the Messenger Yunus, harbored doubts...did he cease being a Muslim? Was he less of a Muslim than Abraham? Remember, we are commanded to make no distinctions between Allah's prophets and Messengers. Look, harboring ill thoughts of shirk ( taking something else along with or exclusive of Allah, for one's guidance) doesn't undo one being a Muslim, however, carrying out thoughts of shirk into practice certainly would.
Please post the ayat where Allah says that being haneefan muslim precludes one from reneging and turning back from faith/this possibility is nullified. You are simply extrapolating and assigning this value to this term.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, MZ357,
Glad you are participating.
You say
4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).4116 Inna Allaha la yaghfiru an yushraka bihi wayaghfiru ma doona thalika liman yashao waman yushrik billahi faqad dalla dalalan baAAeeda.
But you are missing ? I think, the point . When do you associate other gods with God. Is making a statue and saying that is The God, Associating? What is the quranic concept of Associating?
Main Entry GUIDANCE/Al-QURAN the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
When an individual takes some being, some inanimate object, someone along with or exclusive to Allah for their guidance, then that individual is associating with Allah.
022.017
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.Why is Allah Judging the polytheist if they are indeed where unforgivable?
The ayat doesn't say anything about Allah forgiving the polytheists, it simply says that Allah will judge between them, however, according to ayat 4116, the judgement will be unforgiveness. Consider the following ayats
- Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
4 18. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Salam PBM,
Unfortunately, openburhan.com is down at the moment, however, when I put haneefan into the phonetic search at Islamic Cities, I did not find haneefan to be associated with the Last Prophet. Now, according to your logic, he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik".
Is this argument meant to affect me in some way? I have no sentiments towards the messenger If he wasn't totally dissociated, thats not my problem is it? FYI, he was inspired to follow ibrahim (16/123) but once again, your argument is not relevant at all.
Straightforward, does suggest "unhibited"/bold etc., especially, in the time of Abraham
It might to you and that's your right. I prefer Quranic definitions.
Salima, from which the term muslim derives, does not support your conjecture that a muslim can be a polytheist.
Some questions here
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What does a munafiiq resemble outwardly?
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This munafiq guy, what does he harbour in his heart?
I think you will notice that, Allah, doesn't say they will wish they had been haneefan muslim, but muslim. You will further notice the contrasting of kafirun with Muslim. Kafiruns and hypocrites are polytheists...muslims, haneefan or otherwise, are not.
I disagree. To kafireen, all they see is 'muslim', they cannot tell the difference between either point. A haneefan muslimaan rejects the ego god, for example. Its not possible to see that happening. Its something inner.
On the contrary, being iman of the nations is another issue. Had he not been muslim first, then he could not have been given the title of Iman to the nations. My question stands...as a muslim, do you think you could fully compare yourself to Abraham? Yes or no?
ANOTHER issue ? It's right there in the context. He fulfilled God's concepts and Allah made him imam to humankind. How can it be another issue?
I ask you to please desist from these personal questions. We're discussing something theoretical. As I told you, if i was comparable to Ibrahim, i'd be imam of humankind but clearly im not.
Once they return to what?! These people were not Muslims in the first place so how did they become muslims again?! As far as oaths and agreements go, the polytheist, were not required by Allah to give up their beliefs before entering into certain agreements with the muslims or vice versa. If a muslim turns back from faith, which certainly has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen in the future, then, that individual is no longer muslim, but a munafiq. Now, of course, a munafiq can repent and become muslim again, however, if one is not a muslim, then, one is a polytheist. These terms are referring to particular states of action/being
Return to the covenant. They became muslim from returning and establishing salaat and rendering zakaat.
From your post, you consider 'ad-deen' as faith, 'tauba' as repent, and 'muslim' as some spiritual term. However, you forget that a munafiq doesn't automatically show his nifaaq
They were that day nearer to Unbelief than to Faith, saying with their lips what was not in their hearts but God hath full knowledge of all they conceal. (3/167)
I'm not forgetting anything, but I think you are. Does Allah not know how to define His Words? I repeat my question Allah, has defined the term muslim, as one who is not a polytheist. Are you going to take it upon yourself to change the definition to mean that a muslim can be a polytheist? Wouldn't that contradict Allah directly (see ayat 151 again)?
Answered above.
One can harbor all sorts of things in one's heart. Even the Messenger Yunus, harbored doubts...did he cease being a Muslim? Was he less of a Muslim than Abraham? Remember, we are commanded to make no distinctions between Allah's prophets and Messengers. Look, harboring ill thoughts of shirk ( taking something else along with or exclusive of Allah, for one's guidance) doesn't undo one being a Muslim, however, carrying out thoughts of shirk into practice certainly would.
Right, now you introduce the dimension of 'practice'. Presumably, the opposite of practice is theory , or in this case, in the heart. This is precisely what im trying to tell you. A muslim isn't the same as haneefan muslim for precisely this reason. Remember, Ibrahim went to Allah with qalbeen saliim, so his heart was in it).
You see kufr, muslim as a discrete block. I don't. To me, its possible to increase kufr just like imaan.
Please post the ayat where Allah says that being haneefan muslim precludes one from reneging and turning back from faith/this possibility is nullified. You are simply extrapolating and assigning this value to this term.
No, thats my interpretation of 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen'. If one's being is free from shirik, then the possibility of reneging isn't there.
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Peace Wakas,
Maybe its just me, but I get confused trying to work out what you mean sometimes. But I'll answer what I think you're asking...
Dude, you know me. Do you think im gonna be planning a hajj trip for us or something?
As per your example, an 'islamic' domain. I assumed by that you meant a state.
Well no, a nation state is something else. An Islamic domain is any space where the laws of islam is enacted. It could be your house and garden or neighbourhood. No formal declaration necessary.
Being 'muslim' is personal between you and The God. Can you clarify what you meant by the latter question above
Dude, how can it be personal? You can only be muslim by submitting to God's laws, man. That external. Im just saying, being muslim is something outward. Your heart may be in it, but it may also not be in it.
If you're saying its impossible to be a 'muslim' without knowing whats in 'al quran', then I disagree. The God's laws are not only expounded in 'al quran' but they can also be found in the nature/essence of man. A user can successfully utilise an operating system without a manual. The manual is for those who wish to advance
you know there's no way i'd say you need al-quraan to be muslim . But you do need the book of nature if you like, thats al-kitaab. So you can either submit knowingly or guessingly. So it'd be better to have the manual but its not necessary, of course.
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Salaams PB,
You said
"022.017
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.Quote
Why is Allah Judging the polytheist if they are indeed where unforgivable?The ayah doesn't say anything about Allah forgiving the polytheists, it simply says that Allah will judge between them, however, according to ayah 4116, the judgment will be unforgiveness. Consider the following ayahs"
Why on earth will you or anybody judge someone if they arn?t going to have a chance?
I will say it again
4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one, who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).
We need to identify what is associating ? to my knowledge we associate when we do Zulm, when we are Zalim because then we do obey other then Allah or act in opposition to Allah ? now that is associating , and simply creating idols is not associating.
People going around stone structures or bowing to idols is not Associating at all because we are not acting in opposition to the nature of Allah/T he attributes.
Salaam.
