Why other prophets never came to kaaba?
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salam,
I can read Arabic since my childhood, but I dont understand this language, not even a fraction of it as compaired to you guys. my study of quran for understanding is mostly in urdu which is our national language.we live in a society dominated by mullahs who teach us to read quran in arabic, but they themselves dont understand arabic, any question which they cant answer, you are sure to be snubed for that, you can be in biiiiiiiiiiiiig trouble.
such forums are the best place for better understanding and I am thankful to all of you guys n gals wink
can someone tell me why the verses of quran are not in exact chronological order?
layth says about ch 105My reading is that it refers to what happened to the town of Lot (unless Mekka is the town of Lot, which I doubt).
The key word is 'rocks of Sijeel' which is found in 1182 and 1575 as reference to the destruction wreaked upon the town of Lot.these verses should have be in the same chapter together if they relate to the same event? what i mean to say is why the verses are scattered like a jigsaw puzzle pieces and to prove any point or issue we have to pick one verse from ch1, one from5 and the other may be some place else?
I have seen dr zakir naik do that Ahmed dedad does it, as well as most of our other scholars here in pakistan.
my question is, has this been done intentionally by those who arrange it or is it unintentional? also why no efforts have been made to arrange it catagorically, subject wise, to make it easy for everyone to understand.take care.
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salam to all,
"Kaaba" the house of Allah was built by Adam and then by Abraham. what make me wonder is why the prophets never tried to come to the house of Allah the most sacred place on earth.
Why the immidiate decendends of Abraham isaac, Jacob,
Joseph etc never thought of coming to the house of Allah? Did Abraham or God forgot to mention kaaba to them?Moses wandered in the wilderness along with his followers for 40 years in search for the promised land but never mentions kaba or tries to come to Mecca. solomon and david were kings, what prevented them from coming to mecca to visit the house of Lord?
ch 2847
And you were not present on side of the mount when we called to Moses. all these revelations are the mercy of your Lord, so that you may warn the people TO WHOME NO PROPHET CAME BEFORE YOU, and they may take heed.This has made me more confused, this verse say no prophet came to warn them before Muhammad?
what about Abraham and Ismael, were they not prophets when they built Kaaba? did they not warn the people? did they forgot to tell the people the reason for the constuction of kaba?
why the Muslims were initially commanded to perform salat facing "qibla awal" and then years after hijrat they were commanded by God to turn towards kaaba? did Allah not informed our prophet from the first day about his house?
Why did God send birds with stones to defend kaba and then send rain and flood water to destroy its walls after couple of decades?
please help me understand,
thankyou.This is a really good question and I think that I would like to know the answer myself.
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Layth
My reading is that it refers to what happened to the town of Lot (unless Mekka is the town of Lot, which I doubt).
The key word is 'rocks of Sijeel' which is found in 1182 and 1575 as reference to the destruction wreaked upon the town of Lot.
Speaking about the town of Lot and his people
Layth, please look closely at the following verses, and read them thouroughlyAnd We left remains of it as a clear sign for a people who understand.
And We have left in it a sign for those who fear the painful retribution.
These two verse state that the remains of the town of Lot have been left behind as "signs" so that the people can learn a lesson from it.
Looking closely at the next three verses, you will notice that the people who can learn most from this sign are the Meccans themselves. The town of Lot was very close to Mecca. So close, that anyone riding a camel, can make the trip to and fro, in a single day.
In this are signs for those who seek concrete signs.
And it was on an established path.
In that is a sign for the believers.Verse 1575 states that in it (the remains of the town) are signs for the "mutawassimeen"
-1 ) The way I see it, "mutawassimeen" are those who like (or seek) material or concrete evidences or signs. We know that there were always hippocrites who kept asking the prophet about "material signs" ( miracles).
This verse can be thought of as a kind of mocking reply to such people ( the "mutawassimeen")-2) Note the italics in 1576. It says that the remains of the town are "on a well established path"
We can interpret that the path or road that leads to it, is well established -clear, and very well known - to the Meccans.
Therefore, it serves as an excellent sign to those who believe .
The last and strongest case to support this theory, would have to be the following verse
And you pass by their ruins in the morning;
And in the night. Do you not understand?I believe he is addressing the Meccans here.
Conclusion Mecca is NOT the town of Lot, but it's very close to it D
Your feedback is welcome!
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Salaam Agentxxx
Please learn Arabic. Following link will help you to lear Arabic easily as well as understand the message. I am not Arabic Speaking myself but there are Arabic speaking people who also have difficulty understanding the message clearly.
Word for Word Translation of Qur'an
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Layth
My reading is that it refers to what happened to the town of Lot (unless Mekka is the town of Lot, which I doubt).
The key word is 'rocks of Sijeel' which is found in 1182 and 1575 as reference to the destruction wreaked upon the town of Lot.
Speaking about the town of Lot and his people
Layth, please look closely at the following verses, and read them thouroughlyAnd We left remains of it as a clear sign for a people who understand.
And We have left in it a sign for those who fear the painful retribution.
These two verse state that the remains of the town of Lot have been left behind as "signs" so that the people can learn a lesson from it.
Looking closely at the next three verses, you will notice that the people who can learn most from this sign are the Meccans themselves. The town of Lot was very close to Mecca. So close, that anyone riding a camel, can make the trip to and fro, in a single day.
In this are signs for those who seek concrete signs.
And it was on an established path.
In that is a sign for the believers.Verse 1575 states that in it (the remains of the town) are signs for the "mutawassimeen"
-1 ) The way I see it, "mutawassimeen" are those who like (or seek) material or concrete evidences or signs. We know that there were always hippocrites who kept asking the prophet about "material signs" ( miracles).
This verse can be thought of as a kind of mocking reply to such people ( the "mutawassimeen")-2) Note the italics in 1576. It says that the remains of the town are "on a well established path"
We can interpret that the path or road that leads to it, is well established -clear, and very well known - to the Meccans.
Therefore, it serves as an excellent sign to those who believe .
The last and strongest case to support this theory, would have to be the following verse
And you pass by their ruins in the morning;
And in the night. Do you not understand?I believe he is addressing the Meccans here.
Conclusion Mecca is NOT the town of Lot, but it's very close to it
Your feedback is welcome!
Thanks for posting up those verses and I know taht I do not read my Qu'ran as much as I am soppose to, but that is a good reference for the topic.
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SaLaM Fatima
welcome Fatima to the forums )
Salaam and thanks for welcoming me to the board.
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I think maybe I should have posted those verses in the History/Archaeology section. ??
Oh, but where are my manners?! oops
Welcome to the boards, Fatima.
I hope your stay is a fruitful one -
I think maybe I should have posted those verses in the History/Archaeology section. ??
Oh, but where are my manners?! oops
Welcome to the boards, Fatima.
I hope your stay is a fruitful oneThanks and that is ok. I understand and I do not know where to post things yet, but that is a great topic. I think that we all need a little more knowledge on Islam.
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Peace,
"Kaaba" the house of Allah was built by Adam and then by Abraham.
This is false. The building that is presently called Kaaba was built by the Saudis in 1996.
what make me wonder is why the prophets never tried to come to the house of Allah the most sacred place on earth.
Why the immidiate decendends of Abraham isaac, Jacob,
Joseph etc never thought of coming to the house of Allah? Did Abraham or God forgot to mention kaaba to them?They did come to its real location
- And when We assigned to Ibrahim the house's place DO NOT PARTNER WITH ME A THING
This is what Ibrahim mentioned to his descendents and Jacob did the same thing on his death bed (see 2130-133) when he said to his children
"What do you serve after I pass away?" They said "We serve your god, the god of your forefathers Ibrahim, Ismail, and Isaac, ONE GOD AND TO HIM WE ARE SUBMITTERS."
Moses wandered in the wilderness along with his followers for 40 years in search for the promised land but never mentions kaba or tries to come to Mecca. solomon and david were kings, what prevented them from coming to mecca to visit the house of Lord?
There was no place called Mecca before the revelation of 4824. The word "mecca" in 4824 is a common noun and it means "destruction". Here is Yusuf Ali's translation but instead of leaving "mecca" untranslated, I translated it as a common noun using the meaning from Classical Arabic Lexicons and the context of war
048.024
YUSUFALI And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.As for the following comment by ichephren
The Ka'ba was most likely a center of worship before Muhammad. See http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html If Ptolemy really did reference the city and state that it was built around a sanctuary, then it was recognized as such long before Muhammad came.
The fact is that neither Ptolemy nor any pre-quranic source says anything about Mecca or about a sanctuary. Ptolemy doesn't attach any significance to the place that he referred to as Macroba and doesn't point to it being in the location of present day Mecca. The web site is twisting the facts.
Moreover, the fact is that Ptolemy is not the only one who left us evidence about towns in Arabia. There are many pre-quranic inscriptions that talk about towns in Arabia and none mention a town called Mecca.
ch 2847
And you were not present on side of the mount when we called to Moses. all these revelations are the mercy of your Lord, so that you may warn the people TO WHOME NO PROPHET CAME BEFORE YOU, and they may take heed.This has made me more confused, this verse say no prophet came to warn them before Muhammad?
what about Abraham and Ismael, were they not prophets when they built Kaaba?
They didn't build the shrine called Kaaba because we know for sure that the Saudis built it as recently as 1996.
did they not warn the people?
They certainly warned the people.
did they forgot to tell the people the reason for the constuction of kaba?
There is no logical reason for the construction of a black stone cube no more than there is a logical reason for the construction of any cube, sphere, or pyramid for people to spin around.
why the Muslims were initially commanded to perform salat facing "qibla awal" and then years after hijrat they were commanded by God to turn towards kaaba? did Allah not informed our prophet from the first day about his house?
The concept of "qibla" is not specific to any performance of any ritual. We are clearly commanded to face it WHEREVER we are and not just on the prayer mat or in a mosque.
Why did God send birds with stones to defend kaba and then send rain and flood water to destroy its walls after couple of decades?
He didn't send any birds with stones. We are fortunate in possessing irrefutable archeological evidence (the inscription of Abaraha) that shows that the Abyssinians defeated the Arabs and not the other way around, as history contends. Please see
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean_img.htm
please help me understand,
You don't need help and you don't have to be a big scholar to answer those questions. You can empirically verify for yourself that the present day so-called Kaaba has nothing to do with Ibrahim. The fact that the black stone cube is a cultic pagan symbol built for pagan Arab idols is easily verifiable. One does not even need to look at the abundant archeological evidence to know it. Just by one using his God-given mind, one can easily verify it through empirical observation.
If you go to Mecca, you will see that the focal point of the stone cube is the Black Stone, which is set in the southeast corner of the cube precisely facing the winter sunrise. This precise alignment is not coincidental. The pagan Arab goddess Allat was a fertility goddess and as typical of such fertility goddesses their symbols and rituals are related to the sun. In this case, the direction of the winter sunrise marks the location where the sun is "reborn".
Now if you take a closer look, you will see that the enclosure of the Black Stone is in the shape of a dilated female vulva and the Black Stone is in the shape of the crown of the head of the new-born baby deity as it is coming out of the vulva.
Come closer yet and you will see that people are kissing the head of the new-born baby deity. Ask one of them why he is doing so and he will explain to you that by kissing the stone his sins will be forgiven and he will return sinless as if he was new-born. Kissing the head is an ancient Arab tradition for asking for forgiveness. One can immediately see the strong connection between ideology, rituals and symbols. Kissing the top of the head of the new-born idol as traditionally done to ask for forgiveness, results in the pagan's sins being wiped out like a new-born.
Now hang around for a while and you will observe that people spin seven times around the Black Stone. A pre-quranic manuscript written by Epiphanius in the fourth century CE describes the ritual of spinning seven times as part of the festivals of the Nabataean idols Allat and Dhushara. The number seven was considered sacred in Arab and pagan symbolism in general because of the seven sacred planets that the ancients venerated. To this day many people in the Arab world celebrate what is termed in Arabic Subu3 which is a traditional festival that takes place on the seventh day after the birth of a new-born and on the seventh day after a pilgrims' return! Like the pagan pilgrimage that we observed and Epiphanius described, as part of the Subu3 birth celebrations, people traditionally go around the house seven times while carrying the new-born baby.
During the Hellenization period, Allat became associated with Aphrodite, also a fertility goddess. Like Allat, similar black stones were also venerated at Aphrodite's temple and you can see one such black stone in a museum in Cyprus where her main temple is. Cyprus, the island of Aphrodite, is also home to the fourth most sacred site of Islam after Mecca, Medina, and Al-Quds. It is where the highly venerated Hala Sultan Tekke shrine is located. It too has a Black Stone like the one in Mecca and is dedicated to a female saint/idol named Umm Haram, who traditions claim is the foster mother of the prophet.
There is nothing particularly unique or amazing about what I am saying. All monotheistic religions have reverted to paganism to one degree or another shortly after the death of their prophet. We can see this, for example, in Christianity's appropriation of pagan symbols and festivals such as Christmas. This is human nature. To think that we are somehow unlike other humans is nothing more than arrogant denial. This is in line with what the great reading tells us
- And the majority of them do not have faith in The God except while they are idolaters.
If you believe in 12106, then you must know that the majority of people who have faith in The God are idolaters who associate idols such as Allat with The God as we saw above. I hope this helps.
Salam,
Ayman
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Peace,
Looking closely at the next three verses, you will notice that the people who can learn most from this sign are the Meccans themselves. The town of Lot was very close to Mecca. So close, that anyone riding a camel, can make the trip to and fro, in a single day.
There is nothing about Meccans in the passages that you quoted. You are making a baseless assumption.
Peace,
Ayman
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peace brother Ayman, all,
I think you have commented on this before, but can you give me your thoughts on what Lane says about Al-Lat
Al-Lat - female idol of the pagan Arabs, the prototype of the Greek semi-goddess Leto, one of the wives of Zeus and mother of Apollo.
It is interesting to note the dominance of those who upheld Al-Lat over Mecca, building a house over it, possible involvement of the tribe of Kureysh and the practice to compass it.
5319-23 shows that this was present during the messenger's time.
All a coincidence?
Wakas
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Peace brother Wakas,
I think you have commented on this before, but can you give me your thoughts on what Lane says about Al-Lat
Al-Lat - female idol of the pagan Arabs, the prototype of the Greek semi-goddess Leto, one of the wives of Zeus and mother of Apollo.
It is interesting to note the dominance of those who upheld Al-Lat over Mecca, building a house over it, possible involvement of the tribe of Kureysh and the practice to compass it.
5319-23 shows that this was present during the messenger's time.
All a coincidence?
Thank you for your comments and the info from Lane. The part about Allat being a mother goddess is indeed verified by physical archeological evidence. On the other hand, there is a bunch of baseless pious fiction that Lane recounts. I think that Lane should stick to etymology as opposed to trying to recount pious fiction. We know from pre-quranic inscriptions that the idols Allat, Al-3uzza, and Manat are Nabataean idols. So the answer to what their names mean will not be found by Classical Arabic dictionaries in baseless hearsay stories, but one must look at the abundant inscriptions in Nabataean and North Arabian dialects.
The name of the deity Allat occurs in Safaitic graffiti as Ha'ilat. In the Safaitic North Arabian dialect, the Ha is the definite article as opposed to Al in Arabic. The meaning in Safaitic is "the goddess". So this is most likely to be the original meaning in Arabic too.
Interestingly, 5319-23 give us very important clues about where the great reading was originally revealed. Specifically, the script of the great reading and even the spelling of certain words in it help us to determine where the great reading was or was not originally written.
For example, there is an Old Arabic inscription, from eastern Arabia where the deity Manat is invoked, and spelt "mnt" in Old Arabic (i.e. presumably with a long /a/ which would not be represented in a medial position), rather than mnwtw as in Nabataean. Interestingly, unlike the Old Arabic inscription, in the great reading we see the name spelled with a medial wa, which is in line with the Nabataean spelling. This indicates that the great reading was revealed in an area where Nabataean was the prestige script and hence the scribes adopted the foreign Nabataean spelling of the proper name that they are used to instead of the Old Arabic spelling, which matches the Arabic pronunciation. The name in Nabataean was most likely pronounced mnot with a long "o".
The script of the great reading helps us to pinpoint where it was revealed. As an informal language of the common people, Arabic did not have a specific script associated with it. When it was written, people simply used the prestige script of the area where it was written. For example, all the pre-quranic Arabic inscriptions in Central Arabia are written in the South Arabian (Musnad) script, which was the script of prestige of that region. On the other hand, the great reading is written in the Nabataean script, which was the script of prestige in Northern Arabia, specifically the Lakhmid provinces and border towns. This completely negates a Central Arabian origin of the great reading. This also completely negates that the great reading was revealed in a Christian Roman province such as Jerusalem where the script of prestige was Greek and in fact we have an Arabic manuscript which came from this area and indeed it was written in Greek script. So the evidence from the script and spelling of words in the great reading itself points to a location in Northern Arabia, somewhere between Hira in Southwest Iraq and Sakakah and Hegra in Northern Arabia.
I hope this helps.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace Jaxal,
This is false. The building that is presently called Kaaba was built by the Saudis in 1996.
And what was in its place before this allegdely happened?
In its place was nothing since the Saudis had to tear down the previous structure, which was also built by them some years back.
Also, what do you mean by "allegedly happened"?
The fact that the structure that people call Kaaba was built by the Saudis in 1996 is indisputable. In fact, we know that the stone cube had to be torn down and rebuilt every number of years due to natural disasters, fire, and just regular wear and tear. Or do you think that it withstands forever all the millions of rubs, kisses, and fondling by the millions of pagans every year?
This is so indisputable that even the most fanatic Sunnis are forced to admit that only the so-called Black Stone supposedly remains from the original shrine (in reality it is a bunch of broken stones tied together with a silver strap). So what are you disputing?
Peace,
Ayman
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SaLaM Ayman
The reason i say it allegdey happened is becoz the saudis didnt built the Kabbah in 1996. Ibrahim did. And even leaving that aside, as you said, there is no way a structure can survive for that long. But for some reason, you think that Kabbah has lost its place simply becoz it was rebuilt. Why is that? Ibrahim built it. It got damaged so the people rebuilt it. It is as simple as that. The symbolism it carries has not been lost. If our house was damaged, we would do our best to fix it. Why should it be any differernt for something built by Prophet Ibrahim so long ago, symbolising something so important?
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Salaam Ayman and Wakas,
Which bit of Lanes can you authenticate ? I'd be interested to know how. And while you're at it, please tell me how you interpret archeological findings.
Wakas, if Al-laaat was a statue, why is it not called 'asnaam' and 'tamathil' even though al-quraan uses those words ? al-laat, manaat and uzza were alled 'aaliha'. So if we say al-quraan says all there needs to be said, Lanes is wrong in this case.
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Peace Pazuzu,
Speaking about the town of Lot and his people
Layth, please look closely at the following verses, and read them thouroughlyAnd We left remains of it as a clear sign for a people who understand.
And We have left in it a sign for those who fear the painful retribution.
These two verse state that the remains of the town of Lot have been left behind as "signs" so that the people can learn a lesson from it.
Looking closely at the next three verses, you will notice that the people who can learn most from this sign are the Meccans themselves. The town of Lot was very close to Mecca. So close, that anyone riding a camel, can make the trip to and fro, in a single day.
In this are signs for those who seek concrete signs.
And it was on an established path.
In that is a sign for the believers.Verse 1575 states that in it (the remains of the town) are signs for the "mutawassimeen"
-1 ) The way I see it, "mutawassimeen" are those who like (or seek) material or concrete evidences or signs. We know that there were always hippocrites who kept asking the prophet about "material signs" ( miracles).
This verse can be thought of as a kind of mocking reply to such people ( the "mutawassimeen")-2) Note the italics in 1576. It says that the remains of the town are "on a well established path"
We can interpret that the path or road that leads to it, is well established -clear, and very well known - to the Meccans.
Therefore, it serves as an excellent sign to those who believe .
The last and strongest case to support this theory, would have to be the following verse
And you pass by their ruins in the morning;
And in the night. Do you not understand?I believe he is addressing the Meccans here.
Conclusion Mecca is NOT the town of Lot, but it's very close to it
Your feedback is welcome!
Your analysis makes perfect sence ifMecca is the place where Mohammed was preaching and where his mission was based (which is not what I see).
I see Mohammed beginning his mission in Jerusalem where Abraham was originally based and where he made the following prayer
"And as Abraham raised the foundations for the sanctuary with Ishmael ?Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable. Our Lord, and let us surrender to You and from our progeny a nation surrendering to You, and show us our rites and forgive us; You are the Forgiving, the Merciful. Our Lord, and send amongst them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the Scripture and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.? (The Message 2127-129)
If we look at the evidence from the Scripture that Lot was with Abraham, and that he established a town near the shrine...Then the town of Lot would be in present day Jordan or Palestine (the town of Petra has a high probability in my opinoin of being that town).
After this, we know for certainty that Mohammed emigrated in the face of persicusion and hardship...And that his migration was to the town of Yathrib.
Yathrib would be a prime candidate for 'a people who have not received any prophet' as brother agent has pointed out.
