Iblis?
-
Peace Nadia, all,
You said that only malaika were asked to submit. I'm not sure 100% because from 712, we know indirectly that Iblis was ordered to submit
- He said What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you? He said I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!
Qala ma manaAAaka allatasjuda ith amartuka qala ana khayrun minhukhalaqtanee min narin wakhalaqtahu min teenin
I don't believe on the theory which claims that Iblis lost his statute of malak, there is zero evidence from the Reading which support it. If I'm wrong, please do bring your evidence.
Both Adam and Iblis disobeyed the God's command, their punishment is they were driven out....Adam keeps his statute of human, Iblis was of jinn (1850) before he transgressed the God's command. There is any evidence that Iblis lost his statute of jinn after he transgressed and after he was driven out aljanna (20123). Correct me if I'm mistaken, the progeny of Iblis is the tribe of Jinn, in the same way we are the progeny of Adam.
I think the verse 230 can help us to get a better understanding
230 And when thy Lord said to the angels, I am going to place a ruler
in the earth, they said Wilt Thou place in it such as make mischief in it
and shed blood? And we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness. He said Surely I know what you know not.Let us suppose that Iblis was "one of the angel". I find the last part of 230 ambiguous (red text). the malaika know about the bad behaviour of adam on earth, How did they pretend to be a best ruler instead of Adam whereas one of them was a transgressor, disbelivers, proud?
- He said What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you? He said I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!
-
Peace marie,
You said that only malaika were asked to submit. I'm not sure 100% because from 712, we know indirectly that Iblis was ordered to submit
I don't believe on the theory which claims that Iblis lost his statute of malak, there is zero evidence from the Reading which support it. If I'm wrong, please do bring your evidence.We know that the address was only given to malaika, verse after verse consistently. There is no group called iblis or a seperate address for iblis.
If the address is only for malaika and iblis is called jinn after he rejects, the logical conclusion is that malaika is a status coupled with the verse 713 "get down from this, it is not for you to be arrogant in it". This is evidence, but everyone looks at it the way they want to.their punishment is they were driven out....Adam keeps his statute of human, Iblis was of jinn (1850)
What do you mean by using statute in the above quote (it means codified law?)? Their punishment is that they were also degraded...and coupled with the above evidence, it makes perfect sense that iblis loses his status of mlk after refusing and thus is called not by his previous status but by what he is. That doesn't change. I believe that this was a test for the malaika. There is also a connection between the jinn and the malaika (7216, 117, 3975).
Correct me if I'm mistaken, the progeny of Iblis is the tribe of Jinn, in the same way we are the progeny of Adam.
Thus the connection in the verses that I have listed above, and if they redeem themselves, they will be closer to the status of mlk that they lost.
Let us suppose that Iblis was "one of the angel". I find the last part of 230 ambiguous (red text). the malaika know about the bad behaviour of adam on earth, How did they pretend to be a best ruler instead of Adam whereas one of them was a transgressor, disbelivers, proud?
It was a test, it's readily apparent that is was a test for the malaika and those that harboured doubts came forward and that who rebelled we know of.
-
Peace to Ash Shura, JM and all
This is a long comment, so sorry in advance, I?m not a fan of posting just the verse numbers and leave it to the reader to find it themselves, it will be a bit distracting as well will slow the reading, also I developed the habit of posting the Arabic verses as well, the reason is I only refer to the Arabic words and I careless for any translation that may cause any confusion
The subject we have in hand is very complicated, we can summarize it into the followings points
- The creation of Jinn
- The nature of Iblis when he was created
- Why Iblis was up there
- The nature of Iblis while he was up there
- The creation of Adam
- The conflict between Iblis and Adam
- The outcome of the conflict
The Arabic word Jinn is a common word to describe any creature who manages to do impossible/hard things, for example in the Arab culture when they see a child doing amazing things the most common word to describe the boy is as follow ?Walad Zai Al Jinn?, i.e. ?A Child is like a Jinn?
We were told that Allah created Humans on Earth as well He created the Jinns for the same exact reason which was to worship and serve Allah
56- ?And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me?
57- ?I do not desire from them any sustenance and I do not desire that they should feed Me.?
The Quran ; 5156-57](56)
(57)-> Clear as light that Allah created the Jinns and mankind. sure He created all things like the Angels, the heaven and earth, but the point is, these two creatures (Jinns and Humans) ?and only them? share a common fact, BOTH OF THE JINN AND HUMAN RACES WERE CREATED TO SERVE ALLAH.
-> The Arabic word is clear ??, which means ?Created? ?past tense?, you can also note that the Jinns came before Mankind, possibly because they were created before humans?, well let?s assume this for the time being and see if a conflict will arise as we read all the verses I included in my comment.
-> It is also worth to note in verse 5157 that Allah is referring to the Jinns and Humans by using the word ?Them? and the word ?They?
-> From the above we can conclude that the Jinns are a physical entity that are created exactly as humans are created by Allah, if we assume that Jinns mean a symbol of evil, and I concede that Allah will also create or give us the idea about any symbol He wishes, how come Allah requests from the Symbol of Evil to serve Him as stated in verse 5156?, impossible request I guess, or a non sense request I should say?, well that is why I have to conclude that the Jinns are a physical creature, as well I have to conclude that they have freewill like humans, this is evident from the reason of creation which is to ?serve Allah?
-> We can also have a wild guess from verse 5156 that the Jinns were created before Humans, and we will see later if this wild guess conflicts with any of the Quran verses.
Working on our assumption that the Jinns being created on Earth before humans to serve and worship Allah, we can read a verse that supports this assumption
?Such are they against whom is proved the sentence among the previous generations of Jinns and men, that have passed away; for they will be (utterly) lost.?
The Quran ; 4618](1
-> We can clearly read in verse 4618 that Allah is telling us that His Judgment on the previous GENERATIONS OF JINNS AND MEN will be justified
-> The above verse can?t be talking about a symbol of Evil as previous generations who will earn Allah punishment and will be the losers, another strong evidence that support our first conclusion that the Jinns are a physical creature.
-> We can also read that the Jinns generations preceded the humans generations ?in the order of words? within the sentence which is talking about previous generations as a example for us to pay attention, this note will add some weight to our assumption that the Jinns were created before Humans.
The same message of the previous generation of the Jinns and Humans is found in another location in the Quran
?He will say Enter into fire among the nations that have passed away before you from among jinn and men; whenever a nation shall enter, it shall curse its sister, until when they have all come up with one another into it; the last of them shall say with regard to the foremost of them Our Lord! these led us astray therefore give them a double chastisement of the fire. He will say Every one shall have double but you do not know?
The Quran ; 738](3
-> Note the words order ?Jinns and Men?
Let?s move on to the part that will sound like a story tale, firstly what I?m just about to say is not my invention, it is from a book that I read with my brother when we were about 18 years old, the book was over 1000 pages as far as I remember, and it was tackling the issue of Allah plan with the Jinns and Humans, the authors of the book were a bunch of very old Arab and religious writers who resorted to hundreds of very ancient historical books to come up with their conclusion that the Jinns inhibited earth before humans, they failed to know by how long but that was not relevant to their study of Allah?s plan with us, which is already exposed to a degree in His Quran and previous holy book, they just wanted to make up a complete story by gathering all information they can find from everywhere then cross referencing with each other, then eliminate what could not make any sense.
We read in the Quran when Allah told the Malaika that he will create Humans ON EARTH, they wondered and asked Allah and between themselves, How Allah will create another creatures who will cause mischief and shed blood on earth
?And when your Lord said to the Malaika, I am going to place in the earth a khalifa, they said What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said Surely I know what you do not know?
The Quran ; 230](30)
-> How the Malaika knew that the humans will make mischief and shed blood on earth? the Malaika can not know anything on their own unless they saw it with their own vision of course
?They said Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise.?
The Quran ; 232](32)
-> Was their knowledge of shedding blood and causing mischief on earth a result of what they saw from the previous generations of Jinns when they inhibited earth freely and were requested to SERVE ALLAH as humans will be requested?, this is not a wild guess to assume as such, if we consider the verses I posted above about the previous generations of Jinns who were concluded as a creature created by Allah. If the Malaika did not see the mischief or blood shedding on earth, then their knowledge must came form Allah, i.e. it happened and He told them about it, because they can?t know anything on their own with their own admission. I lean to believe the first possibility that the Malaika saw the shedding of blood and the mischief on earth with their own vision, knowing that the Malaika are Allah?s soldiers in the universe and they were created to force the nature laws and Allah justice during this life and the hereafter, they just have no freewill to cause any mischief on earth.
-> We concluded that the Jinns were created to serve Allah and they must be of a physical nature, Allah has told us He created something called Jinns, He also told us the He created them from fire
26- ?We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;?
27- ?And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind?
The Quran ; 1526-27](26)
(27)-> We can read that the humans were created from mud moulded into shape and the Jinns from fire of scorching wind, BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT NOTE IS THE ARABIC WORD ? ?, which was translated as ?BEFORE?, I.E. WE HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT THE JINNS WERE CREATED BEFORE HUMANS AS SEEN IN VERSE 1527
Now, we know that they were created before us and we know that they were created to worship and serve Allah and we know that they were created from fire, but are all Jinns bad?
The misconception about the Jinns that they all are very bad, while the truth is there are many of them who are good Jinns, in fact there is a whole sura in the Quran that is called the Jinns, let?s read a few verses from it
1- ?Say It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur'an). They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital! ?
2- 'It gives guidance to the Right, and we have believed therein we shall not join (in worship) any (gods) with our Lord.?
3- 'And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord He has taken neither a wife nor a son.?
4- ?'There were some foolish ones among us, who used to utter extravagant lies against Allah;?
5- 'But we do think that no man or spirit should say aught that untrue against Allah.?
6- 'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.?
7- 'And they (came to) think as ye thought, that Allah would not raise up any one (to Judgment). ?
8- 'And we pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires. ?
9- 'We used, indeed, to sit there in (hidden) stations, to (steal) a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.?
10- 'And we understand not whether ill is intended to those on earth, or whether their Lord (really) intends to guide them to right conduct.
11- 'There are among us some that are righteous, and some the contrary we follow divergent paths. ?
12 'But we think that we can by no means frustrate Allah throughout the earth, nor can we frustrate Him by flight. ?
13- 'And as for us, since we have listened to the Guidance, we have accepted it and any who believes in his Lord has no fear, either of a short (account) or of any injustice.
14- 'Amongst us are some that submit their wills (to Allah), and some that swerve from justice. Now those who submit their wills - they have sought out (the path) of right conduct ?
The Quran ; 721-14](1)
(2)
(3)
(4)
(5)
(6)
(7)
(
(9)
(10)
(11)
(12)
(13)
(14)
(15)-> There will be no doubt after extracting the descriptions of the Jinns race from the above verses of surat Al Jinn that they are physical entity and for real, we can say the following about the Jinns
Verse 1 They hear and talk, and they even managed to recognise the wonderful Quran unlike our Sunni brothers and sisters
Verse 2 & 3 Some of them recognised the objective of the Quran then they declared their belief in Allah without committing Shirk, again unlike our Sunni brothers and sisters.
Verse 4 There are foolish Jinns who are Kafiroon , who used to utter extravagant lies against Allah;?
Verse 5 Some Jinns will realize, they should not say aught that untrue against Allah., amazingly some Sunni brothers do with their corrupt Hadith, the verse actually mentioned the humans as well that they should not utter extravagant lies against Allah
Verse 6 Some Humans may seek the help of some of the Jinns but the fact of the matter is the Jinns will increase them in folly.
Verse 8 & 9 They used to pried into the secrets of heaven; but not any more. Currently they will be ambushed if they try.
Verse 10- They don?t understand whether ill is intended to those on earth, or whether the Lord intends to guide them to right conduct.
-> Possibly they said the above in 7210 due to their own horrible experience which I might discuss here, I read in this huge book that when Allah created the Jinns on earth before us, they caused great mischief and they shed blood on earth, this is due to their amazing abilities which I will discuss later, but we know that they were requested to worship Allah and serve Him exactly like humans, but sure they didn?t and we know when the nations ignore Allah messages and warnings, what will happen to them,? we see it every day on earth through natural disasters and more, we also know from the Quran what Allah did to Noah people, Lut people, Aad, Thamoud and many other examples of previous arrogant generations who earned the severe punishment from Allah as documented in the Quran, and that is exactly what happened to the Jinns, however before the punishment happened there was a very good example of a believing Jinn, it was Iblis who worshiped Allah and served Him on earth like no one ever did in this life, but there was a problem, Iblis was a hypocrite, he thought he can fool Allah and show belief while inside him he was a clear cut arrogant and a hypocrite, it seems Iblis belief was so flawed that he did not realize that Allah will know what is inside him, the story goes as follow Allah lifted Iblis to the heaven as a reward, Allah was actually planing for Iblis the big surprise, some suggested that Iblis was given Malaika qualities, like the good looks for example, others also suggested that Iblis was given a job as a paradise keeper with the Paradise Angel keepers, in any case Iblis was made to think that he was an Angel and it was earned by his fake belief, then the order of punishment to the rest of the Jinns race was issued, Allah sent the Angels to earth to punish them and it was said that Iblis joined them, the task was to imprison all the Jinns under the earth crust or let?s just say inside the earth, they can live there don?t worry, aren?t they created from fire?
The Angels and Iblis then went back to the heaven unaware of Allah plan of the next Khalifa on earth.
But please before you write off the obove possibility consider the ex knowledge of the Angels of the mischief and the blood shedding that was due to what I wrote above, in fact in verse 7212, this assumption may be confirmed
Verse 11 There are among them some that are righteous, and some the contrary they follow divergent paths like humans exactly.
Verse 12 The information in this verse is very important here is the verse again 'But we think that we can by no means frustrate Allah throughout the earth, nor can we frustrate Him by flight. ?, it is like simulating exactly what they did on earth when they were khalifa and living freely on top of it, the righteous Jinns realized that they can not frustrate Allah on earth neither they can escape Him, of course we may understand that the majority of them thought that they can frustrate Allah on earth as well He will not be able to get them because of their amazing abilities that He inserted in them, very dumb indeed, it seems also the story of imprisoning them inside earth as a punishment has some integrity due to the fact the punishment was imprisoning them while they thought they can escape Allah.
Verse 13 Again some of them declare their acceptance to the guidance sent by their lord in the wonderful Quran
Verse 14 and those Jinn believers can not be true believers with out submitting to Allah after they believed in Him, so those Jinn believers declared their Islam ?Submission to Allah?
From the above it is just impossible to believe that the Jinns are not a physical entity, but there is a bit of extra info that I know about the Jinns
a) A good Jinn is called Jinn (Saleh) like human exactly
b) A bad Jinn is called Shaitan
c) A Jinn who reach great knowledge in what they can do is called ?Ifrit?, we can also call a young child ?Ifrit? if he/she manages to do some amazing things, very common indeedConsequently when the Quran mentions the word Shaitan we should know that we are talking about a bad Jinn, the word Jinns is a general word to describe all of them good or bad, a very knowledgable Jinn is called Ifrit as I mentioned above. The Quran actually told us that the Jinns can do amazing things, we know so far that they used to go up to the sky to spy on the secrets of the heaven and this was stopped and if they try to do it now they will be ambushed by a meteor, this on its own is enough to prove their amazing abilities however we can also read the following in the Quran
?And there were gathered together unto Solomon his armies of the jinn and humankind, and of the birds, and they were set in battle order;? ?
The Quran ; 2717](17)
-> The Quran is informing us that Prophet Solomon has armies of Jinns. Consequently they must been physical entities and for real. The Quran actually has given us some examples on what these armies of Jinns were doing to King Soloman
39- ?Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."?
40- ?Said one who had knowledge of the Book "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!" Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !" ?
The Quran ; 2739-40](39)
(40)-> Actually what the Jinn suggested to do in verse 2740 is a new science technology called Teleporting. Can you see that that Jinn was described as ? had knowledge of the Book??
Why Iblis is a Jinn?
This is not an assumption, the Quran told us as such, the Arabic word ?Min? means ?from the same entity?, we have a lot of examples in the Quran, like 28 and many others, for anyone to come and say ?Min? means similar is very strange indeed
?Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam" They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!?
(50)
-> You can?t get clearer than this ?Min? means literally ?From them?, used many times in the Quran, but can you see the underline words?, it says ? He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord?
I.E. WHEN HE BROKE THE COMMAND OF THE LORD HE WAS ONE OF THE JINNS, the words ? , and he broke the Command of his Lord? came after ? He was one of the Jinns? and between them ?And? in Arabic represented by the first letter ?Fa? in the word ? ? means ?and he broke the Command?, this should kill the argument of the ones who think Iblis was not a Jinn at the time of prostrating.
The arrogance which Iblis showed CAN NOT BE COMMITTED BY THE MALAIKA
?(Allah) said "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said "I am better than he Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
(12)
But we know that The Jinns were created from Fire according to 1527, so what else you reckon Iblis was?, well, we have 4 clues
A) He was one of the Jinns (1850)
B) He was created from Fire (712)
C) The Jinn were created from fire (1527)
D) Iblis has freewill (712)
E) Only the Jinns and Humans have Freewill (5156)Would Iblis be a Jinn?, sound like a reasonable answer to me. Well, according to clear Arabic Quran, it seems it is a very logical answer as well.
The arrogance of Iblis ?the Jinn?, was told in many other locations
39- (Iblis) said "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-
40- "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
41 (Allah) said "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.
42 "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."(39)
(40)
(41)
(42)-> Would the above dialogue between Allah and Iblis be a symbol?
-> Well, if it is, then the author of the Quran will look really silly, it is like he is directing a movie that does not exist, while he is going in great details and in many locations telling us things that never happened, this is a joke if considered, let?s see how the story was told again and again and again
75- (Allah) said "O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"
76- (Iblis) said "I am better than he thou createdst me from fire, and him thou createdst from clay."
77- (Allah) said "Then get thee out from here for thou art rejected, accursed.
78- "And My curse shall be on thee till the Day of Judgment."
79- (Iblis) said "O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."
80- (Allah) said "Respite then is granted thee-
81- "Till the Day of the Time Appointed."
82- (Iblis) said "Then, by Thy power, I will put them all in the wrong,-
83- "Except Thy Servants amongst them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
84- (Allah) said "Then it is just and fitting- and I say what is just and fitting-
85- "That I will certainly fill Hell with thee and those that follow thee,- every one."
(75)
(76)
(77)
(7
(79)
(80)
(81)
(82)
(83)
(84)
(85)-> Can the above intense dialogue be a fake?, I mean never happened? Allah is just teaching us a lesson about the Symbolic Evil?
Well, if this is the case then the following verses from the above dialogue will not make any sense
Verse 77- ?(Allah) said "Then get thee out from here for thou art rejected, accursed.?, from where the symbolic evil will get out exactly?
Verse 78- "And My curse shall be on thee till the Day of Judgment.", How Allah will curse a symbol till the Day of Judgment?
Vesre 84 & 85 ? ?(Allah) said "Then it is just and fitting- and I say what is just and fitting-? , "That I will certainly fill Hell with thee and those that follow thee,- every one.", How Allah is telling us the Judgment will be just and fitting, then He tells us that He will fill Hell with Iblis and with any human who will follow Him, How Allah will punish Iblis ?the symbol? in Hell?
You see Iblis was and is a Jinn, he has freewill and he is our biggest enemy, unfortunately the serious promise Iblis took ? (Iblis) said "Then, by Thy power, I will put them all in the wrong,-? is very true
20- And on them did Iblis prove true his idea, and they followed him, all but a party that believed.
21- But he had no authority over them,- except that We might test the man who believes in the Hereafter from him who is in doubt concerning it and thy Lord doth watch over all things.
(20)
(21)There is also a few verses in the Quran that confirm that the Jinns are physical entity
?Say "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.?
(8
-> Another challenge above to both Jinns and Humans
?O ye assembly of Jinns and men! If it be ye can pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, pass ye! not without authority shall ye be able to pass!?
(33)
-> And another challenge to both.
"O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.?
(130)
-> It seems prophets were sent to the Jinns as well from the above verse. Well, we know that some of the Jinn listened to the Quran and believed in it and they uphold it unlike the Sunni brothers and sisters.
?Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided for they are heedless (of warning).?
(179)
-> It seems from the above verse that the Jinns have hearts, eyes and ears, as well Hell will be filled by both Jinns and Humans
?And the Unbelievers will say "Our Lord! Show us those, among Jinns and men, who misled us We shall crush them beneath our feet, so that they become the vilest (before all).?
(29)
-> The Jinns and Humans who will be the resident of Hell will ask Allah to show them those among Jinns and Men who mislead them sure to take their revenge by crushing them beneath their feet, as if it will do relief their agony, they are still dumb I guess.
To be continued....
-
The rest of the above comment
?And the Unbelievers will say "Our Lord! Show us those, among Jinns and men, who misled us We shall crush them beneath our feet, so that they become the vilest (before all).?
(29)
-> The Jinns and Humans who will be the resident of Hell will ask Allah to show them those among Jinns and Men who mislead them sure to take their revenge by crushing them beneath their feet, as if it will do relief their agony, they are still dumb I guess.
?O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.?
(27)
-> This is also an important verse, Allah made us not to be able to see the Jinns while they can see us. That does not mean The Jinns are better than us, in fact Iblis were ordered to prostrate to us, i.e. we are in better level than the Jinns, it is just a condition by The All Mighty Allah for the test in this life, and He does what He wants as He said about Himself in many locations in the Quran.
?And Satan will say when the matter is decided "It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to call you but ye listened to me then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with Allah. For wrong-doers there must be a grievous penalty.?
(22)
-> And finally in the day of Judgment and after all matters are decided by Allah, Iblis will say ? It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to call you but ye listened to me then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with Allah. For wrong-doers there must be a grievous penalty.?, another proof that Iblis is a physical entity.
From all the above we can conclude the following
- Jinns were created before Humans
- Jinns inhibited earth before Humans
- Jinns are created from Fire
- Iblis is created from Fire
- Iblis is a Jinn as the Quran explicitly stated as well he became a Shaitan when he disobeyed Allah, the Quran in numerous times referred to Iblis as ?Shaitan? which is the opposite of the Angels
- Iblis was never called explicitly an angel, but he was up there for some reason when Adam was created
- Jinns and Humans have freewill and are required to use their freewill to worship Allah, NO OTHER CREATURE HAVE FREEWILL (INCLUDING THE ANGELS, THE HEAVEN AND EARTH)
The Angels were aware of the blood shedding and mischief that will be committed by humans before Adam was created while they can?t know the future - Iblis experienced his freewill and refused to prostrate while the Malaika did not have freewill and ALL OF THEM PROSTRATED, ALLAH EXPLICITLY STATED THAT THE MALAIKA NEVER DISOBAY ALLAH IN AT LEAST TWO LOCATIONS.
We can assume the following
- Iblis was raised to the heaven after Allah fooled him due to his hypocrisy in the belief.
- Allah made him think that he became an angel while his true nature of creation stayed the same, possibly Allah made Iblis just of a good look for example, but his soul stayed the same, that should be easy on Allah, isn?t it?. The malaika may also thought that Iblis became one of them, why not? It is quite possible if they have no knowledge except what Allah told them 232
Not too many assumptions for sure, just a couple, but that is far comprehendible than to think Iblis was a Malak all the way which contradicts the Quran big times, as well to think that his status has changed from a Jinn to a Malak then back to a Jinn is funny and does not make sense, it is like the Christian concept when they say god changes his status between three different entities each has its unique properties, simply if the Jinn becomes an Angel then the properties of the Angels should apply which is ?NO FREEWILL? ?MUST OBEY ALLAH?S COMMANDS? and ?FEAR ALLAH?, Iblis did not do any of the three and consequently he never been an angel, let?s just assume that he was made to think so, the strongest argument is in verse 1850
?He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord.?, i.e. when Iblis broke the command to prostrate, he was one of the Jinns, very clear indeed.
Thanks for the reading and I?m sorry about the long comment
Allah knows best
Peace
-
Peace Nadia,
There is no group called iblis or a seperate address for iblis.
I didn't say that Iblis is a group. Iblis like Adam is adressed in a singular form, contrary to the malaika which is the plural form of malak and were adressed by YOU (plural form).
Both Iblis and Adam have their own progeny.
Both are driven out aljannatCan you answer this question, we human being are the progeny of Adam,
who is the progeny of Iblis?Feel free to ignore 712 where the God stated clearly " He said What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you?
iblis is called jinn after he rejects
Disagree, please read the explanation bellown given by brother Ahmad Bahghat
I.E. WHEN HE BROKE THE COMMAND OF THE LORD HE WAS ONE OF THE JINNS, the words , and he broke the Command of his Lord came after He was one of the Jinns and between them And in Arabic represented by the first letter Fa in the word means and he broke the Command, this should kill the argument of the ones who think Iblis was not a Jinn at the time of prostrating.
What do you mean by using statute in the above quote (it means codified law?)?
I meant Adam remains a human being before and after he wan driven out aljannat.
There is also a connection between the jinn and the malaika (7216, 117, 3975).
Where is the connection between the jinn and the malaika from 7216, 117, 3975?
and if they redeem themselves, they will be closer to the status of mlk that they lost.
This is your own interpretation not based on the Reading, where do you come with this?
It is wrong to consider that Iblis becomes one of the jinn, whereas he is made with the same material than aljinn (fire) before he was ordered to submit to adam (712)
A) He was one of the Jinns (1850)
B) He was created from Fire (712)
C) The Jinn were created from fire (1527) -
Peace marie,
Can you answer this question, we human being are the progeny of Adam,
who is the progeny of Iblis?I have already answered and agreed with who the progeny of Iblis is in my previous post.
Feel free to ignore 712 where the God stated clearly " He said ?What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you??
God has stated clearly "we said to the malaika bow down". It does not suit to say I'm ignoring verses when the two have a logical connection.
Disagree, please read the explanation bellown given by brother Ahmad Bahghat
Iblis is a jinn. There is no denying that, why does everyone feel that being called a malaika means they suddenly transform and are not who they are? Or having to tell everyone iblis is a jinn ad nauseum? We all know he is a jinn. Malaika is a status for crying out loud.
Where is the connection between the jinn and the malaika from 7216, 117, 3975?
Why would the jinn be given abundant waters? What is the symbolic/literal connection between that and the other verses? There is more but it is irrelevant to the discussion of was iblis a jinn and/or malaika. The verses under discussion are enough to prove what he was/is. Thus, the inclusion of more food for thought for others, feel free to ignore it, it has no bearing on the salient points of what iblis is/was.
This is your own interpretation not based on the Reading, where do you come with this?
I have given you the verses. Likewise your interpretation does not take into account all the verses or their logical connections.
It is wrong to consider that Iblis becomes one of the jinn, whereas he is made with the same material than aljinn (fire) before he was ordered to submit to adam (712)
Eh? When did I say this?
In conclusion after reading the rest of the posts, I find it futile to continue the discussion when the pertinent points have been addressed time and time again, and the only 'new' thing brought to the forefront is 'together' and except means 'but' /
-
Salam brother Ahmad Bahghat,
Thank you for your informative post.
Keep good work.
Regards
no worries sister, the problem it only took me 7 hours to write lol
now heading to bed it is 230 am sydney time
good night all
-
Peace Ahmed Bahgat,
From all the above we can conclude the following
- Jinns were created before Humans
- Jinns inhibited earth before Humans
So were the controllers/"malaika".
- Jinns are created from Fire
- Iblis is created from Fire
- Iblis is a Jinn as the Quran explicitly stated as well he became a Shaitan when he disobeyed Allah, the Quran in numerous times referred to Iblis as ?Shaitan? which is the opposite of the Angels
Humans are called "shaitan" (exceeding in rebellion) too NOT just "jinn" (see 6112).
- Iblis was never called explicitly an angel, but he was up there for some reason when Adam was created
And the reason is given in passages such as 234 "We said to the controllers/"malaika" obey "adam" so they obeyed except "iblis"".
- Jinns and Humans have freewill and are required to use their freewill to worship Allah, NO OTHER CREATURE HAVE FREEWILL (INCLUDING THE ANGELS, THE HEAVEN AND EARTH)
This is false because according to 3372, everything had the freedom to CHOOSE whether to accept the trust or not.
The Angels were aware of the blood shedding and mischief that will be committed by humans before Adam was created while they can?t know the future
How do you know that they can't know the future? From the passage, it seems that they confidently know the future. In fact, like the controllers/"malaika" "iblis" seem to confidently know the future in 717. On the other hand, humans don't know the future. The "jinn" seems to have been previously able to listen to the information in the heavens but not anymore (see 729).
- Iblis experienced his freewill and refused to prostrate while the Malaika did not have freewill and ALL OF THEM PROSTRATED, ALLAH EXPLICITLY STATED THAT THE MALAIKA NEVER DISOBAY ALLAH IN AT LEAST TWO LOCATIONS.
The question is do they not disobey The God because they are controllers/"malaika" or are they malaika/controllers because they don't disobey The God? I hope that you can see the difference.
- Iblis was raised to the heaven after Allah fooled him due to his hypocrisy in the belief.
From the description given in 230. it seems that all the controllers/"malaika" were being tested NOT fooled. They were arguing and questioning The God's decision (hardly the attitude of some mechanical thing with no freedom of shoice). Next after the arguing they were asked to obey the creature who they saw committing atrocities in the future. So this was clearly not an easy test.
- Allah made him think that he became an angel while his true nature of creation stayed the same, possibly Allah made Iblis just of a good look for example, but his soul stayed the same, that should be easy on Allah, isn?t it?. The malaika may also thought that Iblis became one of them, why not? It is quite possible if they have no knowledge except what Allah told them 232
The God can give control/"mlk" to whomever He wills and take it back from whomever He wills according to 326.
He can give it to "iblis" and take it from him. He can give it to any other controller/"malak" and take it away as He wills. The God's hands are not tied. 326 makes it clear that "malaika"/controllers is a status an NOT some kind of mythical creatures flying around in white robes and halos over their head. I think that people are still stuck with this mythical image and hence cannot grasp the clear fact that "malaika" is a status not a seperate creature. This status can be given to anyone by The God and taken away from any malak/controller by The God.
Not too many assumptions for sure, just a couple,
Most of your above conclusions have wrong assumptions as was demonstrated. I think correcting those assumptions will make your conclusions more solid.
but that is far comprehendible than to think Iblis was a Malak all the way which contradicts the Quran big times, as well to think that his status has changed from a Jinn to a Malak then back to a Jinn is funny and does not make sense, it is like the Christian concept when they say god changes his status between three different entities each has its unique properties,
Comparing God to any other creature (mythical or not) is a false analogy by any measure.
?He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord.?, i.e. when Iblis broke the command to prostrate, he was one of the Jinns, very clear indeed.
He has always been a "jinn" and continues to be so. When he disobeyed, he simply lost his status of controller/"malak" and returned to simply being a regular "jinn" as opposed to a "jinn" who is given the status of controller/"malak" by The God.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Ahmed Bahgat,
Salam Mate,
From all the above we can conclude the following
- Jinns were created before Humans
- Jinns inhibited earth before Humans
So were the controllers/"malaika".
I do not know, as Allah did not say the malaika were created with freewill
As well I careless to know, but it is enough to know that the humans are higher than the malaika because they have freewill while they don?t
- Jinns are created from Fire
- Iblis is created from Fire
- Iblis is a Jinn as the Quran explicitly stated as well he became a Shaitan when he disobeyed Allah, the Quran in numerous times referred to Iblis as ?Shaitan? which is the opposite of the Angels
Humans are called "shaitan" (exceeding in rebellion) too NOT just "jinn" (see 6112).
I agree, but noit any human, only the bad guys are called Shaitan, like the terroristys for example
However that is just a nickname, Iblis was a Jinn nicknamed Shaitan
- Iblis was never called explicitly an angel, but he was up there for some reason when Adam was created
And the reason is given in passages such as 234 "We said to the controllers/"malaika" obey "adam" so they obeyed except "iblis"".
well, I can take it as any of the following possibilities
- Allah ordered Iblis to prostrate in another event that is later on to the angel ones
- Allah made Iblis to think (fooled him) that iblis became an angel and the order was given to all in the vicinity as him being an angel virtually but not for real, bear in mind that Allah was fooling Iblis, this is evident from the Quran when Iblis said
39- (Iblis) said "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-
40- "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
41 (Allah) said "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.
42 "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."(39)
(40)
(41)
(42)The Arabic word ?Aghwaitani? does not mean ?put me in the wrong? rather it means ?TO FOOL?, so verse 1539 should be literally and briefly as follow
?Iblis said God as you fooled me I will fool them all
and the same word was used in verse 1542 to describe the ones who will follow Iblis as ?Ghaween? ?Fools?
- Jinns and Humans have freewill and are required to use their freewill to worship Allah, NO OTHER CREATURE HAVE FREEWILL (INCLUDING THE ANGELS, THE HEAVEN AND EARTH)
This is false because according to 3372, everything had the freedom to CHOOSE whether to accept the trust or not.
Mate, I?m sorry before you accuse me of being wrong I would love that you support your claim, while you did by posting a reference to a Quran verse without any elaboration by you
So let me elaborate and prove to you that I was right, not sure if you are wrfong or not really, I?m talking about what I know according to the Quran that I studied well Alahamdullellah and still studying it, here is the verse
YUSUFALI We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof but man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish;-
PICKTHAL Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool.
SHAKIR Surely We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to be unfaithful to it and feared from it, and man has turned unfaithful to it; surely he is unjust, ignorant;
(72)
-> where exactly that it says everything have freewill?, let?s look at Yusuf Ali translation ? We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof but man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish;-?, what is wrong here bro?, it says clearly that the Trust to the (HEAVENS, THE EARTH AND THE MOUNTAIN) was offered and the declined to undertake it
firstly the verse does not say everything only three things mentioned, while I agree that the heaven and earth cover a lot of things, but it does not cover humans, jinn, and animals
secondly, what is trust mentioned in the verse?, the ?? pronounced ?Al Amana?, It is simply to have a freewill and be held accountable, the Quran describe our failure to carry the ?Amana? in the following verse?We had already, beforehand, taken the covenant of Adam, but he forgot and We found on his part no firm resolve.?
(115)
-> This Amana that was declined by the heavens and earth and mountains means that since that moment they have no freewill, this sound really true, I can see the same stars every day, I can also see the sun every day, possibly the sun may want to have a date with another star like Sirius for example?, just kiddin mate , but truly it seems that the Sun and the moon have no freewill, or what do you think?, well the Quran actually told us about an event when after Amana was offered to the heavens and Earth, let?s look at it
?Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said We come willingly.?
(11)
-> You see, after Allah created the heaven and earth and they declined the Amana they were told to stay on course willingly or unwillingly, they preferred to come stay on course willingly, while a human like me and you can go astray with our freewill that was given to us, that Amana that Adam carried
The Angels were aware of the blood shedding and mischief that will be committed by humans before Adam was created while they can?t know the future
How do you know that they can't know the future? From the passage, it seems that they confidently know the future. In fact, like the controllers/"malaika" "iblis" seem to confidently know the future in 717. On the other hand, humans don't know the future. The "jinn" seems to have been previously able to listen to the information in the heavens but not anymore (see 729).
Again I can?t see anything in the Arabic verse that suggest the slightest that Iblis seems confident that he knows the future, the verse does not even suggest that he knows the future while not being confident, the verse does not say what you suggested at all, it simply says that Iblis will attack the humans from all directions
?"Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies).?
(17)
The Quran actually told us that the Jinn can?t know the unseen
?Then, when We decreed (Solomon's) death, nothing showed them his death except a little worm of the earth, which kept (slowly) gnawing away at his staff so when he fell down, the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task).?
(14)
-> I.E. The Jinn failed to know that Soloman is dead for long time, while they thought was was still alive a leaning on his staff
- Iblis experienced his freewill and refused to prostrate while the Malaika did not have freewill and ALL OF THEM PROSTRATED, ALLAH EXPLICITLY STATED THAT THE MALAIKA NEVER DISOBAY
ALLAH IN AT LEAST TWO LOCATIONS.
The question is do they not disobey The God because they are controllers/"malaika" or are they malaika/controllers because they don't disobey The God? I hope that you can see the difference.
they diod not disobey God because they have no freewill and MUST OBEY ALL THE TIME, Iblis had a freewill to decline
didn?t you ask yourself if they know that Adam will shed blood and cause mischief why the prostrated to him then?, because they have no choice
at least if they declined to prostrate using their good argument that humans will shed blood and cause mischief on earth it would have merit than Iblis argument that he is better than Adam because he was created from fire
- Iblis was raised to the heaven after Allah fooled him due to his hypocrisy in the belief.
From the description given in 230. it seems that all the controllers/"malaika" were being tested NOT fooled.
The malaika CAN NOT BE TESTED, they have no freewill
Make sense?
They were arguing and questioning The God's decision (hardly the attitude of some mechanical thing with no freedom of shoice).
where you got that they argued from?, they only wondered and because Allah is the Most fair and Just He allowed them to question Him, exactly as he allowed Iblis to Question God, as you can Question God, but you have freewill to submit like Iblis and like me, the Malaika has no free will and has to submit all the time, that does not mean they are not allowed to ask a question though
Next after the arguing they were asked to obey the creature who they saw committing atrocities in the future. So this was clearly not an easy test.
well again you interpretation is very flawed they were asked to prostrate not to obey Adam, but how the angels can see the future?, they said they know nothing except what Allah told them 232
- Allah made him think that he became an angel while his true nature of creation stayed the same, possibly Allah made Iblis just of a good look for example, but his soul stayed the same, that should be easy on Allah, isn?t it?. The malaika may also thought that Iblis became one of them, why not? It is quite possible if they have no knowledge except what Allah told them 232
The God can give control/"mlk" to whomever He wills and take it back from whomever He wills according to 326.
He can give it to "iblis" and take it from him. He can give it to any other controller/"malak" and take it away as He wills. The God's hands are not tied. 326 makes it clear that "malaika"/controllers is a status an NOT some kind of mythical creatures flying around in white robes and halos over their head. I think that people are still stuck with this mythical image and hence cannot grasp the clear fact that "malaika" is a status not a seperate creature. This status can be given to anyone by The God and taken away from any malak/controller by The God.
So my question is do you believe there is a physical entity called Malaika? (yes /No)
I do not mean status
Not too many assumptions for sure, just a couple,
Most of your above conclusions have wrong assumptions as was demonstrated. I think correcting those assumptions will make your conclusions more solid.
well I say most of the information you have and the Quran understanding you showed is very flawed, sorry
but that is far comprehendible than to think Iblis was a Malak all the way which contradicts the Quran big times, as well to think that his status has changed from a Jinn to a Malak then back to a Jinn is funny and does not make sense, it is like the Christian concept when they say god changes his status between three different entities each has its unique properties,
Comparing God to any other creature (mythical or not) is a false analogy by any measure.
of course
?He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord.?, i.e. when Iblis broke the command to prostrate, he was one of the Jinns, very clear indeed.
He has always been a "jinn" and continues to be so. When he disobeyed, he simply lost his status of controller/"malak" and returned to simply being a regular "jinn" as opposed to a "jinn" who is given the status of controller/"malak" by The God.
that is fine that is exactly what I?m talking about he was given a status of malaika, did you read this in my comment or not
anyway do you believe that Angels is just a status or a physical entity like me and you?
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
Sure everything helps
Peace
ahmed
-
Peace,
These threads might help further...
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1914&start=0
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2147&start=25
-
Peace be upon you all,
I think that the statement Ayman made needs to be repeated, we have to stop looking at this story as being about some magical creatures flying around. The usage of the word "angel" is evidence of this mindset. The word used is "malaika" which comes from the root of M-L-K (control). The first step towards proper understanding is to stop using the word "angel".
Another thing I wanted to point out, the God is not some old man up high waiting for people to "disobey" so "He" can punish them. LAWS have been put in place so that one reaps what one sows. So when we read that Iblis "disobeyed" why do we assume that it was "free will"? Do you really think God, excuse me, the ALL KNOWING has questions?
"Why did you not prostrate Iblis"? No No No, the God is not some object who is in need of answers, this is just a story that MUST NOT be taken so literally. We have to seek the message, what is the guidance?
Iblis was created to be the NEGATIVE RESISTANCE. Its like asking the weights , "why are you not prostrating to this man trying to lift 350 lbs?"
But it is necessary to connect negative resistace with anger, obsession, etc to facilitate understanding about life. Itis the trials of life hat cause us to grow, just like lifting the NEGATIVE RESISTANCE of weights to grow muscles.
Si iblis, in the story is shown to be argumantative, arrogant, etc to tie this all in, do not take this all literal.
The "question" from the God in the STORY is only for us to open up our receptivity to what follows about he nature of NEGATIVE RESISTANCE.We must embrace this resistance with the understanding that it helps us grow, just like Solomon did, if we understand and use it properly, otherwise it is our enemy that will take us down. Not some red monster with a pitch fork, but negative resistance, like letting the weight fall on us.
-
Peace be upon you all,
I think that the statement Ayman made needs to be repeated, we have to stop looking at this story as being about some magical creatures flying around. The usage of the word "angel" is evidence of this mindset. The word used is "malaika" which comes from the root of M-L-K (control). The first step towards proper understanding is to stop using the word "angel".
Another thing I wanted to point out, the God is not some old man up high waiting for people to "disobey" so "He" can punish them. LAWS have been put in place so that one reaps what one sows. So when we read that Iblis "disobeyed" why do we assume that it was "free will"? Do you really think God, excuse me, the ALL KNOWING has questions?
"Why did you not prostrate Iblis"? No No No, the God is not some object who is in need of answers, this is just a story that MUST NOT be taken so literally. We have to seek the message, what is the guidance?
Iblis was created to be the NEGATIVE RESISTANCE. Its like asking the weights , "why are you not prostrating to this man trying to lift 350 lbs?"
But it is necessary to connect negative resistace with anger, obsession, etc to facilitate understanding about life. Itis the trials of life hat cause us to grow, just like lifting the NEGATIVE RESISTANCE of weights to grow muscles.
Si iblis, in the story is shown to be argumantative, arrogant, etc to tie this all in, do not take this all literal.
The "question" from the God in the STORY is only for us to open up our receptivity to what follows about he nature of NEGATIVE RESISTANCE.We must embrace this resistance with the understanding that it helps us grow, just like Solomon did, if we understand and use it properly, otherwise it is our enemy that will take us down. Not some red monster with a pitch fork, but negative resistance, like letting the weight fall on us.
Peace Kyle,
I've posted previously on this episode that occurs with Iblis and is repeated in many places. That the "conversation" described has nothing to do with reality - that there is no need for words to be spoken out as it might appear.
People have a very anthropised view of this - almost like a scene where thousands of mythical beings are assembled and an actual dialogue takes place.
The description only conveys a sense of the message - it by no means represents the reality of needing a mouth and speaking words nor listening with ears etc.
That's the mistake many are making here. They are arguing ad-infinitum about physical prostrations, what the precise conversation was - who said what first etc. completely missing the point.
They're punching froth and creating foam.
Peace/
-
Peace
The lesson is very understood from the story, but that does not make it a symbol and never happened for real
surely the possibilty that it happened for real exist
so we can't be called mistaken from others who look at it differently, because logically speaking you too will be considered making a mistake from our perspective, also as far as my knowledge go, Adam and Eve lived 40 years in paradise before this incodent happened, while this is a hearsay, again we just can't know and accuse others of being mistaken
also if the message of this symbol of evil to watch for has started from the OT (was read there first), then the people from Adam to almost Moses never heard of that story and never been givin that lesson, it just does not sum up
The Malaika are also for real, Allah described them in great details, yes Ma la Ka is to control, but what is the point arn;t the malaika control a lot of things?
you see when Allah is giving us a similtitude He tells us here is a similtitude, with the story of Adam and Iblis, this was never the case while it was repeated numerous times
also it has to happen for real so Adam can realize the danger, you have to be in it to really feel it, if just been told then the lesson is not strong enough in any a high meassure, bearing in mind that is the main message that will start with adam who will transfer it to his first children strongly due to what he has been through for real
I can eassily refute the sunni sect using the Quran and will leave them speechless and I can also refute the Quran alone sect using the Quran and leave them speechless as well, it is all relative indeed
the absolute right and wrong is only in Allah's hand
peace
-
Peace Ahmed,
Peace
The lesson is very understood from the story, but that does not make it a symbol and never happened for real
surely the possibilty that it happened for real exist
What I am saying Ahmed is not questioning whether it really happened. I am saying that the way it is described is only framed like that so that we as humans may understand.
There is no way that Adam (thought of as a man) saw God and an assembly of angels and a character by the title of Iblis all in front of him having a conversation like it is presented.
If you look at the actual words of the dialogue then you can see that there is more than one version of the dialogue. Why? Because no specific dialogue took place. The words chosen merely describe the situation in a way we understand.
so we can't be called mistaken from others who look at it differently, because logically speaking you too will be considered making a mistake from our perspective, also as far as my knowledge go, Adam and Eve lived 40 years in paradise before this incodent happened, while this is a hearsay, again we just can't know and accuse others of being mistaken
also if the message of this symbol of evil to watch for has started from the OT (was read there first), then the people from Adam to almost Moses never heard of that story and never been givin that lesson, it just does not sum up
While I'm not sure I understand this entirely I think you're saying that a similar situation is presented in the old testament. And the Jews and Christians are responsible for the anthropomorphisation of this scene. They depict God as an old bearded man, Satan as some evil looking being and angels with wings all in an assembly and envision that to have actually occurred.
Nothing of the sort happened. The story is therefore allegorical.
the absolute right and wrong is only in Allah's hand
See how you've given a good example.
When you say "Allah's hand" - you know that the God does not have a hand. You say it so that I may understand that you are saying it's in the God's control.
There is no 'hand' for real, but I understand what you mean by it. Thus the coversation is not for real, but you are able to get the message from it. The God has no "mouth" nor "ears" and no "voice box" etc. So the conversation is a stand in for some other process in which these things occurred.
When two computers are exchanging information through a wireless connection - neither of them is 'talking' and yet we may say that they are communicating with each other. I hope you are able to understand what I am getting at.
Regards.
-
Peace Ahmed,
Peace bro
What I am saying Ahmed is not questioning whether it really happened. I am saying that the way it is described is only framed like that so that we as humans may understand.
well, if Allah is the one who is describing it I bet it was described in a non average way, but it was described in many locations, in none, Allah never infomed us that the story is a similtitude as He did with many similtitudes in the Quran
There is no way that Adam (thought of as a man) saw God and an assembly of angels and a character by the title of Iblis all in front of him having a conversation like it is presented.
I agree 100%, in fact I'm sure they only heard his voice coming from somewhere, Humans like Moses heard God talking so why not it happned with the rest up there
If you look at the actual words of the dialogue then you can see that there is more than one version of the dialogue. Why? Because no specific dialogue took place. The words chosen merely describe the situation in a way we understand.
Not really, this is the style of the Quran, the Quran talked about many other incidents with different words, it is to serve the purpose that the Quran explains itself, it can not be just repeating the same exact words to stress a specific message by Allah, it will look really silly as someone will be just trying to increase the number of pages in a book
it is also a challenge to the professional arabic speakers to recognise the Quran miracle in talking about the same thing with different arabic words many time
also when the Quran talks about an incident many times you will notice that new information can be obtained from the repetiton
While I'm not sure I understand this entirely I think you're saying that a similar situation is presented in the old testament. And the Jews and Christians are responsible for the anthropomorphisation of this scene. They depict God as an old bearded man, Satan as some evil looking being and angels with wings all in an assembly and envision that to have actually occurred.
Nothing of the sort happened. The story is therefore allegorical.ok, I have a verse from the Quran as an answer
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the Mala'ika, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
(1)
so the angels exist for real as creatures
the Jinns and Iblis exist for real as creatures, "Iblis" even is a name to one of the Jinn
humans exist for real and sure they all came from Adam
and finally Allah who created the above as He told us, exists for real
so why the repeated story is not real?
i would say you are going against the odds
the absolute right and wrong is only in Allah's hand
See how you've given a good example.
I don't need a good example, I have my brain to know what is good and what is wrong
When you say "Allah's hand" - you know that the God does not have a hand. You say it so that I may understand that you are saying it's in the God's control.
I agree hand can mean control and was used in the Quran to refer to Allah's control, but in the verse of Adam creation , Allah told us the He created Adam with His own hand "Yaddi", and it has to be understood as literal, no other possibilty can fit according to the arabic Quran
not to say His hand looks like our hand, rather I have no idea how it looks but i know he has hands as He told us
There is no 'hand' for real, but I understand what you mean by it. Thus the coversation is not for real, but you are able to get the message from it.
sorry, according to the arabic Quran, Allah has real hands and He used it to mold Adam into shape, it is what Allah said not me
The God has no "mouth" nor "ears"
I don't know about the mouth and ears, but I know that Allah talk, hear and see
and no "voice box" etc. So the conversation is a stand in for some other process in which these things occurred.
No, the Quran told us that Allah can talk to others from behind a barrier without the others seeing Him, would you like to see the verse?
When two computers are exchanging information through a wireless connection - neither of them is 'talking' and yet we may say that they are communicating with each other. I hope you are able to understand what I am getting at.Regards.
well I'm an MCSE so I know what you mean, however your guess is very wild and coradict the Quran
peace bro
-
Peace Ahmed,
We have different understandings overall but there may still be something to gain by discussing a little more.
well, if Allah is the one who is describing it I bet it was described in a non average way, but it was described in many locations, in none, Allah never infomed us that the story is a similtitude as He did with many similtitudes in the Quran
Not everything is labelled a similitude. 37 informs us that there are clear and firm verses and then similar or interpretive verses and none but those grounded in knowledge understand them.
Therefore any verse that is not giving a clear directive for the God's system are similar or interpretive verses. The vast majority of the book is therefore of the 'mutashabih' type.
Verses like the Iblis episode are described in many ways with different dialogues thus these are clearly the similar verses.
I agree 100%, in fact I'm sure they only heard his voice coming from somewhere, Humans like Moses heard God talking so why not it happned with the rest up there
Again for example the dialogue that occurs in Chapter 20 while it looks like a conversation between the God and a man is not happenning in the usual sense. The message could be descending to his consciousness with nothing to be heard by a third party.
And look at 2830-35 which relates the same episode and lo and behold there is a different dialogue.
The reason is that neither one represents the communication that really took place because there were no words out loud. Nothing was 'heard' with the ears.
We can only get an idea of the interaction, but not know the actual dynamics of it. The same is true of many of the interactions involving the God and that includes the one with Adam, Iblis etc.
ok, I have a verse from the Quran as an answer
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the Mala'ika, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
so the angels exist for real as creatures
The verse you quote is interesting especially because the number of fundamental forces in nature are 4.
"Wing" in this sense can mean modality or mode of force/control. The electromagnetic, strong & weak nuclear forces, and gravitation.
the Jinns and Iblis exist for real as creatures, "Iblis" even is a name to one of the Jinn
humans exist for real and sure they all came from Adam
and finally Allah who created the above as He told us, exists for real
so why the repeated story is not real?
i would say you are going against the odds
"Iblis" cannot be a single creature or being. If you believe that is the case, then how do you believe he can influence 6 billion people at one time? Iblis/satan is the corrupt part of human nature to do evil. The part of humans that will mislead them rather than assist them in reaching the right path.
I agree hand can mean control and was used in the Quran to refer to Allah's control, but in the verse of Adam creation , Allah told us the He created Adam with His own hand "Yaddi", and it has to be understood as literal, no other possibilty can fit according to the arabic Quran
not to say His hand looks like our hand, rather I have no idea how it looks but i know he has hands as He told us
In this respect my thoughts lean positively towards the mutazilite school of thought...
As much as the absolute uniqueness of God, the Mu'tazila stress His absolute transcendence.
By this it is to be understood fundamentally that, for them, God is not a body, and therefore is
not to be attributed with any of the properties of a body, such as being localised, moving about,
having a form, etc. Two principal consequences are entailed. The first is that all
anthropomorphic representations of God are to be rejected; furthermore, any qur'anic
expression of this kind-the 'hands' of God, His 'eyes', His 'face', His 'side'-is to be
understood only in a figurative sense by the 'hand' of God, His blessing (ni'ma) is meant, by His
'eye', His knowledge (cf. Maqalat, 165, ll. 12-13; 195, ll. 13-15), by His 'side', His command
(amr) (ibid., 218, ll. 46), by His 'face', His very essence (ibid., 521, l. 16). The second consequence
is that God cannot be seen, in the literal sense of the term, either in this world or in the other,
since only a body can be seen, all vision operating through contact between a ray (shu'a') emitted
by the eye and the object that is seen (cf. 'Abd al-jabbar, al-Mugjni, iv, 57, ll. 10-11; al-juwayni,
al-Irshad, ed. Luciani, Paris 1938, 96, ll. 2-13). The qur'an, moreover, states explicitly of God that
'vision does not comprehend Him' (la tudrikuhu 'l-absaru, vi, 103).I respect that you may think differently, and again these are the similar verses we are discussing. It's best not to be dogmatic about them and accept that people can see them differently according to their different levels of understanding. Only the God knows what is meant.
Regards.
-
Peace Ahmed,
No, the Quran told us that Allah can talk to others from behind a barrier without the others seeing Him, would you like to see the verse?
I do not think talking means that Allah talks as you may talk to me, or as we may be 'talking' now on-line. Nor is Allah the one to talk as the deaf to the deaf or the mute to the mute. Jibreel has said that Allah does not shrink from using examples as low as a misquito or anything greater than that .
Joe
-
Peace Ahmed,
Salam mate
We have different understandings overall but there may still be something to gain by discussing a little more.
we all different bro, but the truth must be one, and I agree that our discussion is healthy
well, if Allah is the one who is describing it I bet it was described in a non average way, but it was described in many locations, in none, Allah never infomed us that the story is a similtitude as He did with many similtitudes in the Quran
Not everything is labelled a similitude. 37 informs us that there are clear and firm verses and then similar or interpretive verses and none but those grounded in knowledge understand them.
Bro, the verse 37 is on its own a Mutashabih verse, because it can be understood in many other ways
The point regarding ?None but those grounded in knowledge understand them? , is very misleading bro, this is my honest opinion, first of all, I see the verse never suggested that those grounded in knowledge will understand those Mutshabih verses, it never suggested as such the way I see it in the Arabic Quran, let me bring the verse here and give me a chance to explain
?He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.?
(7)-> Mutashabihat, means ?unclear in meaning?, and Allah is telling us that the Quran consist of two types of verses
- verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning);
- others are allegorical (not established in meaning)
NONE knows the true meaning of the allegorical ones EXCEPT Allah.
The people firmly grounded in knowledge will still never know the meaning, that is what the above verse clear Arabic suggest from the sequence of Arabic words, it is a new sentence that started in the verse like this And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord", that is what Allah wants to tell us about those people grounded in knowledge, that they accept the allegorical verses regardless of its meaning because THEY HAVE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ALLAH NOT KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE QURAN AND LIKE THEY MANGED TO KNOW THE MEANING OF THE ALLEGORICAL VERSE
This is very logical indeed, because if the managed to know the meaning then why they say this ? "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord", do you get my point mate?
If they managed to know the meaning then they just tell it to us and never say the above contradicting statement that it only means they failed to know its meaning, right?
Therefore any verse that is not giving a clear directive for the God's system are similar or interpretive verses. The vast majority of the book is therefore of the 'mutashabih' type.
The story of adam can not be mutshabihat, very lil and specific details might be, but the story happened for real as understood from the many times it was repeated, this is just the style of the Quran and is miraculous if you really know the language,
Verses like the Iblis episode are described in many ways with different dialogues thus these are clearly the similar verses.
that is where you are mixed up, thinking that Musgabihat means was told many times, or repeated, this is wrong bro, mutshabihat means ?UNCLEAR IN MEANING?, let me explain
, many other stories about Moses and pharaoh was repeated about the same exact incident to add further information for us and the same for many other things found in the Quran, I expect it is not going to be the exact same words as written in the Quran because the words written is Allah words while the true conversation from other parties were a mix of human, jinn and malaika, and in no way their words can be equivalent to Allah words, so what we read in the Quran is Allah perception to what happened and was told in many ways that none contradict each other as well they all complete each other to extract a complete story ?The Quran Explains Itself?, I have done this before actually regarding the story of Adam and Eve as extracted from the Quran, it is a very long comment that I wrote on another board, I might look for it and post it here, so you may understand where I?m coming from when you put everything about the same subject next to each other, it is very interesting comment actually, I have to find it though, but I can give a a simple example to show how the Quran explains itself as well prefect/complete itself
you know the story about Pharaoh when the magician realized that what Moses was doing is not magic and they submitted to Allah, Allah is telling us that Pharaoh said to the magicians
?Pharaoh said You believe in him before I give you permission; most surely he is the chief of you who taught you the magic, so you shall know certainly I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and certainly I will crucify you all.?
(49)-> The last two words in the above verse said by Pharaoh and Interpreted to us by Allah ? ?, which was translated as ? and certainly I will crucify you all.?
-> The enemy of Islam use the above verse to attack the Quran by suggesting how come Pharaoh will crucify the magicians on the cross and Jesus came after Moses by over a thousand years? i.e. the Quran has a mistake.
While their argument is very flawed because the Quran never mentioned that they will be crucified on a cross or any thing in the above verse, it only said they will be crucified
And because Allah knows everything including the future He knew that some will claim that with ignorance, so Allah mentioned the same exact incident in another location and the same person was talking to the same people saying the same thing, but this time we have an extra bit of information added to it
?Pharaoh (Firon) said You believe in him before I give you leave; most surely he is the chief of you who taught you enchantment, therefore I will certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will certainly crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and certainly you will come to know which of us is the more severe and the more abiding in chastising. ?
(71)-> In this verse Allah is talking about THE SAME EXACT INCIDENT but the words said by Pharaoh WERE NOT IDENTICAL to verse 2649, but we have no conflict on the context neither the meaning or the lesson learnt, however we also have a new bit of info that refute those ignorant enemy of Islam as the verse clearly says that they will be crucified on trunks of palm trees?
using your very weak logic, then the above story and many others will be of a symbol and never happened because the words said was changed, while the objective of Allah is really simple is for us to find a conflict between those repeating stories, bearing in mind that the same story may have been told years apart when it was revealed as the Quran took 23 years to be fully revealed as you know, so a human to be consistent in the words for 23 years is really impossible and a contradiction in the his word should arise
when you read the long comment about extracting all the info regarding adam and eve and you put it next to each other and compare, you may understand two things
- that whatever the Quran says is for real unless it was explicitly mentioned as a similitude
- The miracle of the Quran and it can not be human made
But I have to find it first mate, I wrote a year ago
I agree 100%, in fact I'm sure they only heard his voice coming from somewhere, Humans like Moses heard God talking so why not it happned with the rest up there
Again for example the dialogue that occurs in Chapter 20 while it looks like a conversation between the God and a man is not happenning in the usual sense. The message could be descending to his consciousness with nothing to be heard by a third party.
And look at 2830-35 which relates the same episode and lo and behold there is a different dialogue.
As I explained bro, this is how the Quran was designed by Allah, it is not like any other book ever existed I read it always in Arabic for the last 25 years man, it is a real miracle as I see it, please wait for my long aocmment about the story of Adam and Eve, I just need to find it first
The reason is that neither one represents the communication that really took place because there were no words out loud. Nothing was 'heard' with the ears.
it was interpreted by Allah words to us in many way to achieve many objectives
We can only get an idea of the interaction, but not know the actual dynamics of it. The same is true of many of the interactions involving the God and that includes the one with Adam, Iblis etc.
I have to take as a true story because Allah never said the contrary, in fact that is what He said, it is a true story so going against this means I might be accusing God of deceiving us indirectly
ok, I have a verse from the Quran as an answer
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the Mala'ika, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs) He adds to Creation as He pleases for Allah has power over all things.
so the angels exist for real as creatures
The verse you quote is interesting especially because the number of fundamental forces in nature are 4.
can you please elaborate
"Wing" in this sense can mean modality or mode of force/control. The electromagnetic, strong & weak nuclear forces, and gravitation.
very wild guess bro, I?m sorry, Allah is not trying to show that He is smart by saying clear arabic words that means something totally different
but I still don?t understand, do you believe the Malaika exist for real like me and you?
the Jinns and Iblis exist for real as creatures, "Iblis" even is a name to one of the Jinn
humans exist for real and sure they all came from Adam
and finally Allah who created the above as He told us, exists for real
so why the repeated story is not real?
i would say you are going against the odds
"Iblis" cannot be a single creature or being. If you believe that is the case, then how do you believe he can influence 6 billion people at one time? Iblis/satan is the corrupt part of human nature to do evil. The part of humans that will mislead them rather than assist them in reaching the right path.
Iblis is a single creature and he has progeny exactly like humans, the Quran actually warned us from Iblis and His progeny
I agree hand can mean control and was used in the Quran to refer to Allah's control, but in the verse of Adam creation , Allah told us the He created Adam with His own hand "Yaddi", and it has to be understood as literal, no other possibilty can fit according to the arabic Quran
not to say His hand looks like our hand, rather I have no idea how it looks but i know he has hands as He told us
In this respect my thoughts lean positively towards the mutazilite school of thought...
As much as the absolute uniqueness of God, the Mu'tazila stress His absolute transcendence.
By this it is to be understood fundamentally that, for them, God is not a body, and therefore is
not to be attributed with any of the properties of a body, such as being localised, moving about,
having a form, etc. Two principal consequences are entailed. The first is that all
anthropomorphic representations of God are to be rejected; furthermore, any qur'anic
expression of this kind-the 'hands' of God, His 'eyes', His 'face', His 'side'-is to be
understood only in a figurative sense by the 'hand' of God, His blessing (ni'ma) is meant, by His
'eye', His knowledge (cf. Maqalat, 165, ll. 12-13; 195, ll. 13-15), by His 'side', His command
(amr) (ibid., 218, ll. 46), by His 'face', His very essence (ibid., 521, l. 16). The second consequence
is that God cannot be seen, in the literal sense of the term, either in this world or in the other,
since only a body can be seen, all vision operating through contact between a ray (shu'a') emitted
by the eye and the object that is seen (cf. 'Abd al-jabbar, al-Mugjni, iv, 57, ll. 10-11; al-juwayni,
al-Irshad, ed. Luciani, Paris 1938, 96, ll. 2-13). The qur'an, moreover, states explicitly of God that
'vision does not comprehend Him' (la tudrikuhu 'l-absaru, vi, 103).Thank you bro, I read it and I agree with a few points but reject the rest because this is what I believe
Some of Allah descriptions as extracted from the clear Arabic Quran can be as follow
- have hands
- Have eyes, and can see
- Can hear (not sure about the ear)
- Can talk (not sure about the mouth)
- He is every where
- And another 99 properties of Him
I respect that you may think differently, and again these are the similar verses we are discussing. It's best not to be dogmatic about them and accept that people can see them differently according to their different levels of understanding. Only the God knows what is meant.
Regards.
Sure man, peace be with you
-
Peace Ahmed,
No, the Quran told us that Allah can talk to others from behind a barrier without the others seeing Him, would you like to see the verse?
I do not think talking means that Allah talks as you may talk to me, or as we may be 'talking' now on-line. Nor is Allah the one to talk as the deaf to the deaf or the mute to the mute. Jibreel has said that Allah does not shrink from using examples as low as a misquito or anything greater than that .
Joe
Hello Joe
Allah can talk in two ways, Wahi, or direct
but when He talks direct, it will be behind a barrier that prevent us from seeing Him, this is what The Quran said
also it told us that Moses talked directly to Allah, but he failed to see Him, because the mountains could not stand seeing Allah due to His might
Moses was described as the prophet who has spoken to Allah, in the Quran
Peace