What is a jinn ?

wildguest1956

Peace JM

Here is another serious one bro, in the following verses we read

26 We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;
27 And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.

(26)
(27)

Two serious questions must be raised by the above verses

were the human leaders created differently from the ordinary humans? sounds like two different races to me
were the human leaders created BEFORE the ordinary humans?

see bro, that whole concept started to fall over

I still have more but I will need a bit of a break please

Cheers

Peace Ahmed,

My opinion is that these verses do not refer to the primary creation of 2 different species.

The expression Khulika min is also used in the verse Khuliqa al-insanu min AAajal, literally ?He created man out of haste?.
Does it mean that God took some haste, then mixed it with clay to create the human being ?
Obviously not.
It simply means that man is naturally hasty.

Therefore, I think that the 2 verses you have quoted describe the mindsets of the jinn (chiefs) and ins (commoners), the commoners being malleable (like clay), and the chiefs being fiery (like fire).

This is confirmed by the verses I have quoted in this post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.0

A similar understanding can be found in the commentary of Muhammad Ali
http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch015.pdf, see note 27a

Peace

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed

Peace bro

I think the word nafs would have better been translated by the word ?soul? (?a single soul?) than by the word ?person? (?a single person?).

I agree, I just copied one of the many flawed translation around the net, the above suppose to be by Yusuf Ali

Contrary to the popular interpretations, I do not think this verse is referring to the primary creation of the human kind. I think it refers to the creation of each of us, from a drop of sperm, in the wombs of our mothers.

This surely does not make any sense, let?s break the verse and see if you are right

Let?s try Picthal this time

O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women. Be careful of your duty toward Allah in Whom ye claim (your rights) of one another, and toward the wombs (that bare you). Lo! Allah hath been a watcher over you.

(1)

, ? O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord?
, ? Who created you from a single soul?, well the message does not sound about each one of us, RATHER ALL OF US TOGETHER, this is obvious from the word ?FROM A SINGLE SOUL? which is Adam for sure

, ? from it created its mate?, now it may get a bit complicated under your concept, if the message is about each one of us then my mate was not created from me really, do you agree?, how about your mate, was it created from you?, hmmm, let me guess, I guess not

, ? and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women?, well bro, can you see the flaw in your concept or not yet?, well let me explain, me and my mate may not spread a multitude of men and women, so far they are only TWO, how about you?, well how about the ones who will be living almost at the end of time?, would the above verse be a contradiction then under your wrong understanding?, well how about the ones who can?t have children at all ?either by choice or forced?? would that verse be talking about them?, of course not bro, it is simply talking about Adam and his mate then all those who spread from them, this makes sense to a child man, I can't believe how many members here twist and play with the Quran verses as they do in here, well the sunnis do not do it as much to be honest,

This is confirmed in the following verses

What is confirmed bro?, that 41 is talking about each one of us?

He has been fully aware of you since He initiated you from the Earth, and while you were embryos in your mothers' wombs

mate, what are you going on about in here to say this is confirmed, mate please be sensible otherwise you are doing exactly what brother Ayman is doing, I can?t believe this man, there is no relation whatsoever between 41 and 5332

And God brought you out of your mothers wombs while you knew nothing.

but what that has to do with the following sequence

Allah created one Nafs
From that Nafs Allah created its partner
From the two, many men and women spread

There is no link whatsoever between the above and 1678 but thanks anyway

O mankind, if you are in doubt as to the resurrection, then We have created you from dirt, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then from a fetus developed and undeveloped so that We make it clear to you. And We settle in the wombs what We wish to an appointed time

This is just a different sequence to the Adam/Partner/All humanity sequence, please don?t compare apple with mangos

He created you from one person, then He made from it its mate. . He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, a creation after a creation in three darkness?s.

well, now we are talking 396 sure is talking about 2/3 of the sequence mentioned in 41, it only mentioned the first two sequences of creating Adam then its partner, the third sequence mentioned in 41 (the spread of many men and women from Adam and his partner? is not mentioned here and that?s about it really

if anything is confirmed it will be the first two sequences i.e. the creation if Adam then from it Allah created his partner

O mankind, We created you from a male and female

That is right but this is a general statement that have exceptions

For example Adam was created from nothing ?not from a male and female?

Adam?s partner was created from a male only ?not from a male and female?

Jesus was created from a female only ?not from a male and female?

So Allah did all possibilities if you consider that all humans coming from Adam and his partner excluding Jesus came from a male and female, so 4913 is just a general law that does not apply at least to Adam, his partner and Jesus

The Arabic words can have different meanings depending of the context. As an example, the word azwaj can mean ?mates?, ?spouses?, or ?pairs?. In the same way, the word ins can refer to ?mankind?, or it can also refer to the ?common people? when it is used with the word jinn.

while I agree that the context controls the meaning the rest of the above is non sense bro, I?m sorry

Here is an example

Say I seek refuge with the Lord of mankind, The King of mankind, The god of mankind, From the evil of the sneaking whisperer, Who whispers into the chests of mankind, From among the jinn and ins.

In these verses, the word ins is used in the sense of ?mankind? in every occurrence, except the last. Translating ins by ?mankind? in the last verse makes no sense.

Sorry, what was that? Sounds like a case of desperation to me, anyway the last word of this sura is ?Nas? not ?Ins? while I agree both are the same I still can?t see your point

in fact the abive sura clearly shows that the Nas and Jinn are different races because Allah said at the end ?From among the jinna and Nas?.

Here is how I would translate it
Who whispers into the chests of mankind, among the chiefs and commoners.

ok, thanks bro

Please note that God is never said to be The lord of mankind and jinnkind, but the lord of mankind only. So, the ins and jinn that are mentioned in can only be 2 classes of human beings.

Mate, I?m sorry I hate wasting my time with this silly arguments, so the Quran didn?t tell us that Allah is the Lord of the chickens, would that mean for you that the chickens is a class of humans? Or the chickens don?t have a God?

This is in line with the following verse
I did not create the jinn and the ins except to serve Me.

Peace

and how about the chickens?

Salam bro and good night

wildguest1956

Peace Ahmed,

Please note I have created another thread to discuss the issue of the creation of man (with or without Adam)

The Arabic words can have different meanings depending of the context. As an example, the word azwaj can mean ?mates?, ?spouses?, or ?pairs?. In the same way, the word ins can refer to ?mankind?, or it can also refer to the ?common people? when it is used with the word jinn.

while I agree that the context controls the meaning the rest of the above is non sense bro, I?m sorry

Here is an example

Say I seek refuge with the Lord of mankind, The King of mankind, The god of mankind, From the evil of the sneaking whisperer, Who whispers into the chests of mankind, From among the jinn and ins.

In these verses, the word ins is used in the sense of ?mankind? in every occurrence, except the last. Translating ins by ?mankind? in the last verse makes no sense.

Sorry, what was that? Sounds like a case of desperation to me, anyway the last word of this sura is ?Nas? not ?Ins? while I agree both are the same I still can?t see your point

I have corrected my post. Thanks.

in fact the abive sura clearly shows that the Nas and Jinn are different races because Allah said at the end ?From among the jinna and Nas?.

Here is how I would translate it
Who whispers into the chests of mankind, among the chiefs and commoners.

ok, thanks bro

Please note that God is never said to be The lord of mankind and jinnkind, but the lord of mankind only. So, the ins and jinn that are mentioned in can only be 2 classes of human beings.

Mate, I?m sorry I hate wasting my time with this silly arguments, so the Quran didn?t tell us that Allah is the Lord of the chickens, would that mean for you that the chickens is a class of humans? Or the chickens don?t have a God?

This is in line with the following verse
I did not create the jinn and the ins except to serve Me.

Peace

and how about the chickens?

Salam bro and good night

This is a good remark, this will give me the opportunity to show that there are something very special with the jinns.

In , God said he has created the ins and the jinn only to serve him.
Why did God forget the chickens ?

Well, the response in this verse

And We have committed to Hell many Jinn and humans; they had hearts with which they did not comprehend, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like cattle; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.

In this verse, we learn again that many of the jinn and the ins will go to hell. Again, God forgot to tell us about the fate of the chickens !

Why ?
Simply because only the ins and the jinn have the possibility of rejecting God?s message. Only these 2 kind of beings can do that, simply because they are both humans, endowed with free will.

And if We had wished, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from Me has taken effect, that I will fill Hell with Jinn and humans all together.

This verse confirms it the jinn and ins both have a soul, to which guidance can be sent. The chicken are never said to have a soul.

?O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day??

Again, we can notice that the unfortunate chickens were never sent chicken messengers...
Alas for them, there was but human messengers, sent to human people (both leaders and commoners).

Peace

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

Good morning bro

Please note I have created another thread to discuss the issue of the creation of man (with or without Adam)

Sure I will have a look

This is a good remark, this will give me the opportunity to show that there are something very special with the jinns.

In , God said he has created the ins and the jinn only to serve him.
Why did God forget the chickens ?

Thanks bro, it was a bit of a funny comment as I needed to laugh to counter the frustration, now it seems to me that you totally misunderstood Allah when He said that ?He created the Jinns and Ins but to worship Him? 5156

Bro please understand this simple fact, these two races were only mentioned because they are the only two races that have bloody freewill and consequently they will be the only two races that must give account and consequently they are the only two races that will be held accountable

How come you missed that bro?

Now the chickens are doing exactly what Allah forced them to do which is being eaten by us, do you love chickens by the way bro?

Also the earth is doing exactly what Allah forced it to do, no wonder you read a verse like this in the Quran

And He has made subservient to you whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, all, from Himself; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.

(13)

-> See, everything in the heaven and earth else but the Jinns and Ins is ?Musakhar to us?, i.e. everything other than the Ins and Jinns truly worship Allah, unlike the Ins and Jinns

Now Allah told us that He is the Rub of Easts and Wests, would the easts and wests be a class of humans?

Allah also told us the He is the ?Rub of Al Sharra?, which is a star as far as I know but for you would Al Sharaa be a class of humans?
And that He is the Lord of the Sirius;

(49)

Well, the response in this verse

And We have committed to Hell many Jinn and humans; they had hearts with which they did not comprehend, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like cattle; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.

In this verse, we learn again that many of the jinn and the ins will go to hell. Again, God forgot to tell us about the fate of the chickens !

Haha bro

Why Allah punish the chicken when he gave them no freewill? A good question for you mate

Why ?
Simply because only the ins and the jinn have the possibility of rejecting God?s message. Only these 2 kind of beings can do that, simply because they are both humans, endowed with free will.

Haha again, you just answered yourself, do you mean because only the ins and jinn have freewill and will be held accountable?

Now to say that then both are humans is very laughable bro, did Allah said that in the Quran that both are humans, Or you are making this up?, why Allah always differentiated between the Ins and Jinns?

Now you have not answered an important question, how Allah created the leaders before the ordinary humans?

And if We had wished, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from Me has taken effect, that I will fill Hell with Jinn and humans all together.

This verse confirms it the jinn and ins both have a soul, to which guidance can be sent. The chicken are never said to have a soul.

So what if both have a soul, this does not make them the same, how silly is this argument bro, well the chicken also has a soul would that make it a human?

How about Allah bro, does He have a soul?

?O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day??

Again, we can notice that the unfortunate chickens were never sent chicken messengers...

Why Allah sends a checken messenger to them while they have no freewill?

Do you know what the job of a messenger is exactly?, if you know then I?m sure you will conclude that the chicken race does not need chicken messengers

Alas for them, there was but human messengers, sent to human people (both leaders and commoners).

Peace

Sorry?

Salam

Someone

Peace JM, all

To expose the link between "the sun, efficient farming and the leaders of chiefdoms", we should recall that in the ancient times, the simplest way to know seasons was the position of the sun rise across the year. Indeed, leaders had acquired this knowledge from some intuiters (commonly known as "prophets&quot, and were aware of the cyclic aspect of nature's phenomena.

When you have a tool to know when the season of rain would start, you know when you have to plant the seeds. Thus tunning each operation of farming with each corresponding season, and increasing the efficiency.

The corrupt leaders used this knowledge to dupe the commeners, to make them believe that they had some sort of power over the force of nature, they could predict the rain, the harvest time... The commoners were amazed by this faculty and thus gave their leaders a status of demi gods.

And then a religion was built around the sun, the prime tool of calendar, and the leaders, who would ask any favors from the commoners.

--

wildguest1956

In , God said he has created the ins and the jinn only to serve him.
Why did God forget the chickens ?

Bro please understand this simple fact, these two races were only mentioned because they are the only two races that have bloody freewill and consequently they will be the only two races that must give account and consequently they are the only two races that will be held accountable

Peace

We can agree on that, except on the term ?race?. You think the jinn and the ins are 2 races, when I think there are 2 classes of people.

And He has made subservient to you whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, all, from Himself; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.

-> See, everything in the heaven and earth else but the Jinns and Ins is ?Musakhar to us?, i.e. everything other than the Ins and Jinns truly worship Allah, unlike the Ins and Jinns

Yes, so, the ins as well as the jinn are included in the expression ?people who think? of this verse.

?O you tribes of Jinn and humans, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and relate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day??

Alas for them, there was but human messengers, sent to human people (both leaders and commoners).

Sorry?

Salam

My point is that there is no jinn (in the sense of hidden being) messenger mentioned in the Quran, while in this verse, it is said that there are messengers among ins and jinn.

Please also note that the term mashar is very badly translated by the word ?tribe?. A mashar is a community whose affair is one and the same. This implies that the jinn and the ins used to live in a single community.

See the explanation of this verse here http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch006-e.pdf

Peace

PS Please be as succinct and straight to the point as possible, so that I have time to reply to all your refutations.

unknownuser

Peace

We can agree on that, except on the term race. You think the jinn and the ins are 2 races, when I think there are 2 classes of people.

Well I agree on that except the term 2 classes of people, because Allah is not going to play hide and seek with us and I mean by seek is seeking the truth, so Allah is not going to hide this truth on us, He clearly specified that the Ins are different to the Jinn except in the subject of worshipping Allah by choice, now it is really silly and dumb to just use the only similarity between the two to conclude that the two are from the same race while ALLAH WAS CLEAR THAT THEY ARE TWO DIGFERNT RACES, He always referred to them as two entities as well other things that those Jinn can do while humans can?t , in addition that they can see us and we can?t see them, how the hell you conclude that the two are the same?, this is ridiculous bro

Yes, so, the ins as well as the jinn are included in the expression people who think of this verse.

I don?t really get what you mean by the above

My point is that there is no jinn (in the sense of hidden being) messenger mentioned in the Quran,

I agree the Jinn are hidden ?The quran clearly told us that about them, what?s new info you have added exactly by calling them hidden?

while in this verse, it is said that there are messengers among ins and jinn.

Ok but what that has to do with the Jinn being the same as Ins?, the verse clearly differentiate between the Ins and Jinn so it contradicts you more than it supports you, how about all the verses that I posted or you are going to turn a blind eye on?m?

Please also note that the term mashar is very badly translated by the word tribe. A mashar is a community whose affair is one and the same.

That is right both have free will and Allah must send messengers to both from them, i.e. the verse indicates that Allah sent jinn messengers to the Jinns Mashar

You are just running around trying to find any logic even if flawed to somehow manipulate it to support you non sensible claim

This implies that the jinn and the ins used to live in a single community.

Haha, this implies that you made this up and surely confirms my last senstence that you manipulate it regardless of logic to support you non sensibvle claim

Does the verse say they lived in the same community? NO, And even if it did, did the Quran tell us that some of the Ins will be able to communicate with the Jinns,?, it did,, now isn?t both are living on the same bloody earth?, yes, so what is your point exactly?

See the explanation of this verse here http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch006-e.pdf

Peace

Thank you bro, but I do understand it in ikts original language, I will be stupid if I read some silly and non sensible English comments by some Rockies while I?m a native and experienced Arabic speaker

PS Please be as succinct and straight to the point as possible, so that I have time to reply to all your refutations.

well, I hope you do reply to the verses I posted so far and replace the Jinn with the hidden and see if it makes sense to a child

now let me ask you, hidden is an adjective, i.e. it needs something to describe as hidden

hidden alone is stupid, non sensible and does not make sense, do you agree?

Well

I can say a hidden secret, a hidden man, a hidden pen, but what the hell is hidden only?

Can I ask you what is exactly that is hidden

Please don?t tell me that you don?t know because it is hidden, haha

Cheers

wildguest1956

Please also note that the term mashar is very badly translated by the word ?tribe?. A mashar is a community whose affair is one and the same.

That is right both have free will and Allah must send messengers to both from them, i.e. the verse indicates that Allah sent jinn messengers to the Jinns Mashar

You are just running around trying to find any logic even if flawed to somehow manipulate it to support you non sensible claim

Peace Ahmed,

Please don?t rush in reading and in replying to me. Fond the second time, you have completely missed my point.
And please take some time to read the links I give you. This will help you understand my stance, and will save your time and mine.

Well, my point is perfectly explained here
http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch006-e.pdf

Please have a look at the comment 130a.

Looking forward to your comments

Peace

wildguest1956

Now it?s getting serious for those Muslims

12- And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient) Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

13- They worked for him as he desired, (making) arches, images, basons as large as reservoirs, and (cooking) cauldrons fixed (in their places) "Work ye, sons of David, with thanks! but few of My servants are grateful!"

14- Then, when We decreed (Solomon's) death, nothing showed them his death except a little worm of the earth, which kept (slowly) gnawing away at his staff so when he fell down, the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task).

-> So Allah has forced the human leaders ?The Jinns? to work for another human leader ?Solomon?, I suppose to be another Jinn ?wasn?t he a human leader??

Yes, and I see no problem with that.
See my earlier post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg93519#msg93519

-> Now this is funny why the humans leaders are professional in (making) arches, images, basons as large as reservoirs, and (cooking) cauldrons fixed (in their places), I thought most of them sits on their backs doing nothing but ripping off their people?

Maybe these jinn were the chiefs of the ordinary people who did that.

Anyway, what would be really funny is to imagine all this work done by invisible beings.

-> Finally, why Allah flags the human leaders that they can?t know the unseen? , the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task)., yet I wonder why Allah was humiliating the human leaders for the sake of another human leader

I don?t understand what the problem is.

Anyway, assuming the jinn are invisible beings, does the statement that they can?t know the unseen really make sense?

Peace

wildguest1956

Here is another problem for them

39- Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."

40- Said one who had knowledge of the Book "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!" Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !"

(39)
(40)

-> We read in 2739 ?Ifrit of the Jinns?, now the advocates of new illogical understanding need to explain to us what is ?Ifrit of the Jinn?? is it a title of the Human Leaders?, if they somehow mange to solve that, then they will be cornered with this one, why that Ifrit of the human leaders can bring the Queen of Sheba throne in a matter of seconds from miles away? ? Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted.?

-> And just to make it harder for those advocates, let me ask them this question whom verse 2740 is talking about?, is it another Ifrit of the human leader who will bring the throne in shorter time than the first Ifrit of the human leaders? If No, then whom is it? and regardless if No or Yes how that entity will being the throne ion shorter time than the first Ifrit of the Jinns ? Said one who had knowledge of the Book "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!", , don?t ever dare anyone and say this is a metaphor, because the throne was brought for real ?Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, , he said "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !?

Peace Ahmed,

The possible meanings of ifrit are

one strong and powerful
sharp, vigourous and effective in an affair

The possible meanings of tarf are

a glance a noble man
a government revenue
an envoy from yemen

The ususal translation of tarf in is ?glance?, but, in this context, ?envoy from Yemen? seems far better.

In , Salomon asks his commanders to bring the throne.
In , a strong and powerful (ifrit) commander (jinn) says he can bring it before he strikes his camp.
In , another commander says he can bring it before the envoy from Yemen (tarf) returns to Salomon (we know from the preceding verses that an envoy had been sent to the queen Sheba, who lived in Yemen).

See http//www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1975&region=E1&CR=
http//www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1976&region=E1

(Please check out these links before asking me any question, so as to make yourself sure you have comprehended my interpretation).

In the verse , translating jinn by invisible beings would make absolutely no sense. Why would an invisible being respond to a request made to the commanders?

Peace

truth

Jinn according to M. Ali

See http//aaiil.org/text/books/mali/religionislam/angels/angels.djvu

Pages 142 to 151
And especially pages 144 to 147 for the chapter "The word Jinn as applied to men" very, very interesting...

To download the djvu plug-in http//www.lizardtech.com/download/dl_options.php?page=plugins

Dear /JM/

Thank you for this link. It is indeed a good discussion especially the pages you mention. Fantastic in fact.

I'm more convinced than ever of the fact that 'jinn' is a description of humans and human nature and accepting that the jinn are anything but that is illogical.

Unfortunately the discussion in another thread has diverged due to 'bombing' of the thread with material unrelated to the topic; but your ideas and source materials have been very good reading.

Peace.

wildguest1956

Jinn according to M. Ali

See http//aaiil.org/text/books/mali/religionislam/angels/angels.djvu

Pages 142 to 151
And especially pages 144 to 147 for the chapter "The word Jinn as applied to men" very, very interesting...

To download the djvu plug-in http//www.lizardtech.com/download/dl_options.php?page=plugins

Dear /JM/

Thank you for this link. It is indeed a good discussion especially the pages you mention. Fantastic in fact.

I'm more convinced than ever of the fact that 'jinn' is a description of humans and human nature and accepting that the jinn are anything but that is illogical.

Unfortunately the discussion in another thread has diverged due to 'bombing' of the thread with material unrelated to the topic; but your ideas and source materials have been very good reading.

Peace.

I am glad this thread has been appreciated by at least one person.

I you find a verse which seems hard to explain with the ?jinn=chiefs? paradigm, feel free to bring it.

Peace

warner

Peace

If we consider Jinns as leaders, is the word jinn referring to a title
or is it referring to a clan/group ?
I mean, will someone be always a jinn once they are a jinn/leader
Or their position can vary between jinn and man.

Also, I still can not figure out the connection between ?created by fire?
and leaders?

truth

Peace

If we consider Jinns as leaders, is the word jinn referring to a title
or is it referring to a clan/group ?
I mean, will someone be always a jinn once they are a jinn/leader
Or their position can vary between jinn and man.

Also, I still can not figure out the connection between ?created by fire?
and leaders?

The created from "fire" (immaterial) in 1527 is a reference to "jinn" as being "human nature" prior to the creation of flesh from "clay" (material).

Peace.

truth

My point is that there is no jinn (in the sense of hidden being) messenger mentioned in the Quran, while in this verse, it is said that there are messengers among ins and jinn.

Peace,

Furthermore it should be obvious from chapter 72 that "jinn" are listening to the reading from a human messenger!

A clear sign that they are one and the same being.

unknownuser

in 1527 is a reference to "jinn" as being "human nature" prior to the creation of flesh from "clay" (material).

What you said above is total manipilation and I will consider it a Lie unless you back it off, now don't bring new materials, here is 1526-27 and again the humans were diffrentiated from the Jinn, Itqi Allah Oben

(26)

(27)

unknownuser

do you realize what you just said?

LOL

warner

Peace

If we consider Jinns as leaders, is the word jinn referring to a title
or is it referring to a clan/group ?
I mean, will someone be always a jinn once they are a jinn/leader
Or their position can vary between jinn and man.

Also, I still can not figure out the connection between ?created by fire?
and leaders?

The created from "fire" (immaterial) in 1527 is a reference to "jinn" as being "human nature" prior to the creation of flesh from "clay" (material).

Peace.

Peace

Thanks for trying to explain can you explain the first part also.

How do we connect, Iblis refusing to prostrate to Adam since
he was created from clay but Iblis being Jinn and having
?human nature? according to you. What was the problem between clay and fire.
Can you please explain this in detail because it is bit confusing right now.

Do you think there is a connection between names Iblis and Ifrit ?

wildguest1956

If we consider Jinns as leaders, is the word jinn referring to a title
or is it referring to a clan/group ?
I mean, will someone be always a jinn once they are a jinn/leader
Or their position can vary between jinn and man.

To understand it, you have to represent in your mind the life in a chiefdom community.
See my 2 previous posts
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg93519#msg93519
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg93521#msg93521

Also, I still can not figure out the connection between ?created by fire?
and leaders?

See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg93535#msg93535

Peace

How do we connect, Iblis refusing to prostrate to Adam since
he was created from clay but Iblis being Jinn and having
?human nature? according to you. What was the problem between clay and fire.
Can you please explain this in detail because it is bit confusing right now.

See the parallel between these 3 sequences

He said ?O Iblis, what is the matter that you are not with those who have submitted?? He said ?I am not to submit to a human You have created from a hardened clay.? He said ?Exit from here, you are cast out.?

Except Iblis; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters. He said ?O Satan, what prevented you from submitting to what I have created by My hands? Are you too arrogant? Or are you one of those exalted??He said ?I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from clay.?

He said ?What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you?? He said ?I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!?

That?s why I think the fire is a symbol of the fiery (arrogant, overproud) mindset of Iblis, as well as the clay is a symbol of the humility and malleability mindset of Adam.

In these chiefdom communities, there were 2 class of people the chiefs, and the commoners. The chiefs were profiting of the commoners and misleading them in idolatry.
Sometimes, a messenger came to them, announcing message of God. Very often, the leaders refused the message of God, and tried to mislead the commoners, claiming that the messenger is a liar, etc?

This pattern can be found at many places in the quran

The leaders who were arrogant from among his people said to those who were weak and believed from amongst them ?How do you know that Saleh was sent from his Lord?? They said ?We believe in what he has been sent with.? Those who were arrogant said ?In that which you believe, we reject!?

Then, after them, We sent Moses and Aaron with Our signs to Pharaoh and his leaders, but they turned arrogant, they were a criminal people.

And they appeared before God, all of them. And the weak ones said to those who were arrogant ?We were following you, so will you avail us anything from God?s retribution?? They said ?If God had guided us, then we would have guided you. It makes no difference if we cry out or are patient, for we have no refuge.?

Then We sent Moses and his brother Aaron with Our signs and a clear authority. To Pharaoh and his leaders. But they became arrogant, for they were a high and mighty people.

And when they argue in Hell, the weak will say to those who were arrogant ?We used to be your followers, can you take from us any portion of the Fire?? Those who were arrogant will Say ?We are all in it together, for God has passed judgment upon the servants.?

See in addition http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.0

The story of Iblis and Adam is symbolic of this recurrent pattern. Iblis symbolises the fiery and arrogant leaders who refuse to accept the message of God. And Adam symbolises the malleable people who sometimes are misled by their leaders, and sometimes follow the messenger.

And We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam.? So they all submitted except for Iblis, he was of the Jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord. ?Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy?? Miserable for the wicked is the substitute!

This verse does not imply that Iblis belongs to some race of invisible beings called jinns. It means that Iblis is of the same nature of the arrogant chiefs (jinn) who try to mislead the malleable commoners (ins).
The progeny of Iblis are the chiefs the commoners sometimes chose to follow instead of the messengers of God.

Is it not easy to understand?

Do you think there is a connection between names Iblis and Ifrit ?

See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg94065#msg94065

Peace

truth

Peace

If we consider Jinns as leaders, is the word jinn referring to a title
or is it referring to a clan/group ?
I mean, will someone be always a jinn once they are a jinn/leader
Or their position can vary between jinn and man.

Also, I still can not figure out the connection between ?created by fire?
and leaders?

The created from "fire" (immaterial) in 1527 is a reference to "jinn" as being "human nature" prior to the creation of flesh from "clay" (material).

Peace.

Peace

Thanks for trying to explain can you explain the first part also.

How do we connect, Iblis refusing to prostrate to Adam since
he was created from clay but Iblis being Jinn and having
?human nature? according to you. What was the problem between clay and fire.
Can you please explain this in detail because it is bit confusing right now.

Do you think there is a connection between names Iblis and Ifrit ?

My view is that "jinn" is contextual. One must consider what it is referring to and attempting to apply one meaning to all instances is how the confusion arises.

Apart from both beginning with "I" and being two syllables with similar vowel, no I personally can't see a connection.

Peace.