What is a jinn ?
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Now it?s getting serious for those Muslims
12- And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient) Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
13- They worked for him as he desired, (making) arches, images, basons as large as reservoirs, and (cooking) cauldrons fixed (in their places) "Work ye, sons of David, with thanks! but few of My servants are grateful!"
14- Then, when We decreed (Solomon's) death, nothing showed them his death except a little worm of the earth, which kept (slowly) gnawing away at his staff so when he fell down, the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task).
-> So Allah has forced the human leaders ?The Jinns? to work for another human leader ?Solomon?, I suppose to be another Jinn ?wasn?t he a human leader??
Yes, and I see no problem with that.
See my earlier post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg93519#msg93519-> Now this is funny why the humans leaders are professional in (making) arches, images, basons as large as reservoirs, and (cooking) cauldrons fixed (in their places), I thought most of them sits on their backs doing nothing but ripping off their people?
Maybe these jinn were the chiefs of the ordinary people who did that.
Anyway, what would be really funny is to imagine all this work done by invisible beings.
-> Finally, why Allah flags the human leaders that they can?t know the unseen? , the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task)., yet I wonder why Allah was humiliating the human leaders for the sake of another human leader
I don?t understand what the problem is.
Anyway, assuming the jinn are invisible beings, does the statement that they can?t know the unseen really make sense?
Peace
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Here is another problem for them
39- Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."
40- Said one who had knowledge of the Book "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!" Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !"
(39)
(40)-> We read in 2739 ?Ifrit of the Jinns?, now the advocates of new illogical understanding need to explain to us what is ?Ifrit of the Jinn?? is it a title of the Human Leaders?, if they somehow mange to solve that, then they will be cornered with this one, why that Ifrit of the human leaders can bring the Queen of Sheba throne in a matter of seconds from miles away? ? Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted.?
-> And just to make it harder for those advocates, let me ask them this question whom verse 2740 is talking about?, is it another Ifrit of the human leader who will bring the throne in shorter time than the first Ifrit of the human leaders? If No, then whom is it? and regardless if No or Yes how that entity will being the throne ion shorter time than the first Ifrit of the Jinns ? Said one who had knowledge of the Book "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!", , don?t ever dare anyone and say this is a metaphor, because the throne was brought for real ?Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, , he said "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !?
Peace Ahmed,
The possible meanings of ifrit are
- one strong and powerful
- sharp, vigourous and effective in an affair
The possible meanings of tarf are
- a glance a noble man
- a government revenue
- an envoy from yemen
The ususal translation of tarf in is ?glance?, but, in this context, ?envoy from Yemen? seems far better.
In , Salomon asks his commanders to bring the throne.
In , a strong and powerful (ifrit) commander (jinn) says he can bring it before he strikes his camp.
In , another commander says he can bring it before the envoy from Yemen (tarf) returns to Salomon (we know from the preceding verses that an envoy had been sent to the queen Sheba, who lived in Yemen).See http//www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1975®ion=E1&CR=
http//www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1976®ion=E1(Please check out these links before asking me any question, so as to make yourself sure you have comprehended my interpretation).
In the verse , translating jinn by invisible beings would make absolutely no sense. Why would an invisible being respond to a request made to the commanders?
Peace
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Jinn according to M. Ali
See http//aaiil.org/text/books/mali/religionislam/angels/angels.djvu
Pages 142 to 151
And especially pages 144 to 147 for the chapter "The word Jinn as applied to men" very, very interesting...To download the djvu plug-in http//www.lizardtech.com/download/dl_options.php?page=plugins
Dear /JM/
Thank you for this link. It is indeed a good discussion especially the pages you mention. Fantastic in fact.
I'm more convinced than ever of the fact that 'jinn' is a description of humans and human nature and accepting that the jinn are anything but that is illogical.
Unfortunately the discussion in another thread has diverged due to 'bombing' of the thread with material unrelated to the topic; but your ideas and source materials have been very good reading.
Peace.
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Jinn according to M. Ali
See http//aaiil.org/text/books/mali/religionislam/angels/angels.djvu
Pages 142 to 151
And especially pages 144 to 147 for the chapter "The word Jinn as applied to men" very, very interesting...To download the djvu plug-in http//www.lizardtech.com/download/dl_options.php?page=plugins
Dear /JM/
Thank you for this link. It is indeed a good discussion especially the pages you mention. Fantastic in fact.
I'm more convinced than ever of the fact that 'jinn' is a description of humans and human nature and accepting that the jinn are anything but that is illogical.
Unfortunately the discussion in another thread has diverged due to 'bombing' of the thread with material unrelated to the topic; but your ideas and source materials have been very good reading.
Peace.
I am glad this thread has been appreciated by at least one person.
I you find a verse which seems hard to explain with the ?jinn=chiefs? paradigm, feel free to bring it.
Peace
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Peace
If we consider Jinns as leaders, is the word jinn referring to a title
or is it referring to a clan/group ?
I mean, will someone be always a jinn once they are a jinn/leader
Or their position can vary between jinn and man.Also, I still can not figure out the connection between ?created by fire?
and leaders? -
Peace
If we consider Jinns as leaders, is the word jinn referring to a title
or is it referring to a clan/group ?
I mean, will someone be always a jinn once they are a jinn/leader
Or their position can vary between jinn and man.Also, I still can not figure out the connection between ?created by fire?
and leaders?The created from "fire" (immaterial) in 1527 is a reference to "jinn" as being "human nature" prior to the creation of flesh from "clay" (material).
Peace.
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My point is that there is no jinn (in the sense of hidden being) messenger mentioned in the Quran, while in this verse, it is said that there are messengers among ins and jinn.
Peace,
Furthermore it should be obvious from chapter 72 that "jinn" are listening to the reading from a human messenger!
A clear sign that they are one and the same being.
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in 1527 is a reference to "jinn" as being "human nature" prior to the creation of flesh from "clay" (material).
What you said above is total manipilation and I will consider it a Lie unless you back it off, now don't bring new materials, here is 1526-27 and again the humans were diffrentiated from the Jinn, Itqi Allah Oben
(26)
(27)
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do you realize what you just said?
LOL
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Peace
If we consider Jinns as leaders, is the word jinn referring to a title
or is it referring to a clan/group ?
I mean, will someone be always a jinn once they are a jinn/leader
Or their position can vary between jinn and man.Also, I still can not figure out the connection between ?created by fire?
and leaders?The created from "fire" (immaterial) in 1527 is a reference to "jinn" as being "human nature" prior to the creation of flesh from "clay" (material).
Peace.
Peace
Thanks for trying to explain can you explain the first part also.
How do we connect, Iblis refusing to prostrate to Adam since
he was created from clay but Iblis being Jinn and having
?human nature? according to you. What was the problem between clay and fire.
Can you please explain this in detail because it is bit confusing right now.Do you think there is a connection between names Iblis and Ifrit ?
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If we consider Jinns as leaders, is the word jinn referring to a title
or is it referring to a clan/group ?
I mean, will someone be always a jinn once they are a jinn/leader
Or their position can vary between jinn and man.To understand it, you have to represent in your mind the life in a chiefdom community.
See my 2 previous posts
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg93519#msg93519
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg93521#msg93521Also, I still can not figure out the connection between ?created by fire?
and leaders?See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg93535#msg93535
Peace
How do we connect, Iblis refusing to prostrate to Adam since
he was created from clay but Iblis being Jinn and having
?human nature? according to you. What was the problem between clay and fire.
Can you please explain this in detail because it is bit confusing right now.See the parallel between these 3 sequences
He said ?O Iblis, what is the matter that you are not with those who have submitted?? He said ?I am not to submit to a human You have created from a hardened clay.? He said ?Exit from here, you are cast out.?
Except Iblis; he turned arrogant, and became one of the rejecters. He said ?O Satan, what prevented you from submitting to what I have created by My hands? Are you too arrogant? Or are you one of those exalted??He said ?I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from clay.?
He said ?What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you?? He said ?I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!?
That?s why I think the fire is a symbol of the fiery (arrogant, overproud) mindset of Iblis, as well as the clay is a symbol of the humility and malleability mindset of Adam.
In these chiefdom communities, there were 2 class of people the chiefs, and the commoners. The chiefs were profiting of the commoners and misleading them in idolatry.
Sometimes, a messenger came to them, announcing message of God. Very often, the leaders refused the message of God, and tried to mislead the commoners, claiming that the messenger is a liar, etc?This pattern can be found at many places in the quran
The leaders who were arrogant from among his people said to those who were weak and believed from amongst them ?How do you know that Saleh was sent from his Lord?? They said ?We believe in what he has been sent with.? Those who were arrogant said ?In that which you believe, we reject!?
Then, after them, We sent Moses and Aaron with Our signs to Pharaoh and his leaders, but they turned arrogant, they were a criminal people.
And they appeared before God, all of them. And the weak ones said to those who were arrogant ?We were following you, so will you avail us anything from God?s retribution?? They said ?If God had guided us, then we would have guided you. It makes no difference if we cry out or are patient, for we have no refuge.?
Then We sent Moses and his brother Aaron with Our signs and a clear authority. To Pharaoh and his leaders. But they became arrogant, for they were a high and mighty people.
And when they argue in Hell, the weak will say to those who were arrogant ?We used to be your followers, can you take from us any portion of the Fire?? Those who were arrogant will Say ?We are all in it together, for God has passed judgment upon the servants.?
See in addition http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.0
The story of Iblis and Adam is symbolic of this recurrent pattern. Iblis symbolises the fiery and arrogant leaders who refuse to accept the message of God. And Adam symbolises the malleable people who sometimes are misled by their leaders, and sometimes follow the messenger.
And We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam.? So they all submitted except for Iblis, he was of the Jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord. ?Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy?? Miserable for the wicked is the substitute!
This verse does not imply that Iblis belongs to some race of invisible beings called jinns. It means that Iblis is of the same nature of the arrogant chiefs (jinn) who try to mislead the malleable commoners (ins).
The progeny of Iblis are the chiefs the commoners sometimes chose to follow instead of the messengers of God.Is it not easy to understand?
Do you think there is a connection between names Iblis and Ifrit ?
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg94065#msg94065
Peace
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Peace
If we consider Jinns as leaders, is the word jinn referring to a title
or is it referring to a clan/group ?
I mean, will someone be always a jinn once they are a jinn/leader
Or their position can vary between jinn and man.Also, I still can not figure out the connection between ?created by fire?
and leaders?The created from "fire" (immaterial) in 1527 is a reference to "jinn" as being "human nature" prior to the creation of flesh from "clay" (material).
Peace.
Peace
Thanks for trying to explain can you explain the first part also.
How do we connect, Iblis refusing to prostrate to Adam since
he was created from clay but Iblis being Jinn and having
?human nature? according to you. What was the problem between clay and fire.
Can you please explain this in detail because it is bit confusing right now.Do you think there is a connection between names Iblis and Ifrit ?
My view is that "jinn" is contextual. One must consider what it is referring to and attempting to apply one meaning to all instances is how the confusion arises.
Apart from both beginning with "I" and being two syllables with similar vowel, no I personally can't see a connection.
Peace.
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Peace
Thank you for the explanation.
Was Iblis created before Adam.
Also, are you implying that all this is symbolic? The creation of man from clay, angels prostrating and Iblis refusing, the creation of the mate, the episode of the tree in the garden and subsequent banishment to earth and Iblis being cursed till the Day of Judgment. That means the leaders are cursed by God and have no opportunity to repent or enter paradise and they will always mislead men from the path.
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Peace
Thank you for the explanation.
Was Iblis created before Adam.
I don?t think so.
And We have created man from a clay hardened and shaped. And the Jinn, We created him before (min qablu) that from the flames of fire.
People usually conclude from this that the jinn (a species of invisible beings) have been created before the human beings.
The key word is min qablu. It is true it can mean before, but it can also simply mean ?in the past?.
2 examples
We had already, beforehand (min qablu), taken the covenant of Adam, but he forgot and We found on his part no firm resolve.
Within a few years. With Allah is the Decision, in the past (min qablu) and in the Future on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-Assuming this word means ?before?, let?s have a look a the context
And We have known those who came early amongst you, and We have known those who came late. And it is your Lord that will gather them. He is Wise, Knowledgeable. And We have created man from a clay hardened and shaped. And the Jinn, We created him before (min qablu) that from the flames of fire.
In the preceding verse, there is a reference to the gathering (into the hell). So, the min qablu in , could simply mean that the ins and the jinn have been created before their gathering in hell.
And if We had wished, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from Me has taken effect, that I will fill Hell with Jinn and humans all together.
See also http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.0
Also, are you implying that all this is symbolic? The creation of man from clay, angels prostrating and Iblis refusing, the creation of the mate, the episode of the tree in the garden and subsequent banishment to earth and Iblis being cursed till the Day of Judgment.
Yes.
As I have explained you, it is symbolical of the relation between everyone, God (and its message), and the misguiders (shayateen).
It is not an event that took place sometimes in the past? It is something that happens everyday in everyone?s mind.
It is guidance for the believers, in their everyday's life.That means the leaders are cursed by God and have no opportunity to repent or enter paradise and they will always mislead men from the path.
When reading the Quran, you can find in multiples occurrences the story about the leaders who mislead their commoners. You will also find that, at the time they will all be gathered in hell (the leaders as well as the commoners), the leaders will abandon their commoners.
However, there are some exceptions.
Salomon and his nobles were on the right side. And the queen Sheba (and her nobles), when invited to submit to God, has accepted.
The prophet Muhammad also met the leaders of a Jew tribe (), and they have chosen to submit to God.
In the beginning of surah 72, there is also a story about the leaders of some Christian nation, and some of them will accept the guidance.Peace
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Peace,
Warner; download my article on jinn
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6089.0
As for the tree in the Adam story, it can be explained by the word djenna=garden hidden by foilage/trees. So the trees resemble the deeds, and the ground(garden) resembles the results of those deeds. When looking at the context of the verses, the tree Adam was told not to approach, says it was a deed that they shouldn?t approach, which was division among the people. So djenna is not up there somewhere. This all comes from the Bible and has infected our minds. Djenna is the perfect result of the good deeds. Gehenna is the result of bad deeds(which is given as zulqan, the tree of hell). These are no places.
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Peace all,
One thing that everyone here might want to consider is that the stone cubic blocks (such as the one in present day Mecca) were called "jinn" blocks. Why is that? I think this small clue plus logically analyzing 3440-41 and 5319-27 further clarifies the meaning of "jinn".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace all,
One thing that everyone here might want to consider is that the stone cubic blocks (such as the one in present day Mecca) were called "jinn" blocks. Why is that? I think this small clue plus logically analyzing 3440-41 and 5319-27 further clarifies the meaning of "jinn".
Peace,
Ayman
You migh wish to consider the following post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4434.msg64036#msg64036Peqce
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Peace JM,
One thing that everyone here might want to consider is that the stone cubic blocks (such as the one in present day Mecca) were called "jinn" blocks. Why is that? I think this small clue plus logically analyzing 3440-41 and 5319-27 further clarifies the meaning of "jinn".
You migh wish to consider the following post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4434.msg64036#msg64036I think the issue with your post is that you make good observations about the relationship between Chapter 53 and 3440-41. The observation is that Allat, Al3uzza and Manat are considered controllers by those who don't have faith when in reality they are "jinn". But then you draw a conclusion that is not relevant to the good observation that you made earlier. Your conclusion that "jinn" are leaders is irrelevant because certainly Allat, Al3uzza and Manat are not leaders. They are inert objects and any "power" attributed to them is only the result of human imagination. So they are in fact a product of the human fantasy/imagination. This is why their abstract (i.e., imaginary) representation is called "jinn" block. This is further proof that "jinn" simply means "fantasy".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace JM,
One thing that everyone here might want to consider is that the stone cubic blocks (such as the one in present day Mecca) were called "jinn" blocks. Why is that? I think this small clue plus logically analyzing 3440-41 and 5319-27 further clarifies the meaning of "jinn".
You migh wish to consider the following post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4434.msg64036#msg64036I think the issue with your post is that you make good observations about the relationship between Chapter 53 and 3440-41. The observation is that Allat, Al3uzza and Manat are considered controllers by those who don't have faith when in reality they are "jinn". But then you draw a conclusion that is not relevant to the good observation that you made earlier. Your conclusion that "jinn" are leaders is irrelevant because certainly Allat, Al3uzza and Manat are not leaders. They are inert objects and any "power" attributed to them is only the result of human imagination. So they are in fact a product of the human fantasy/imagination. This is why their abstract (i.e., imaginary) representation is called "jinn" block. This is further proof that "jinn" simply means "fantasy".
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
I never said that Allat, Aluzza and Manat were leaders.
They were idols created and maintained by the chiefs (the jinn) to subject the commoners.
The chiefs (jinn) made the commoners believe they served/worshipped Allat, Aluzza and Manat, whereas in fact, the commoners, while serving/worshiping these deities were actually serving their chiefs (jinn).This is IMHO the real lesson of the verse , and it is confirmed by anthropology
Chiefs actually didn't serve the public; they duped the public into serving them, and religion was part of the duping. As one archaeologist puts it, "Chiefs coopt the religious authority of the community for themselves."
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.msg93521#msg93521You may know that the scene of chiefs having control over commoners is omnipresent in the Quran. In addition, another trick used by the chiefs to maintain control over the commoners was to erect a language barrier. Does it not sound familiar to you ?
Peace
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Peace JM,
I never said that Allat, Aluzza and Manat were leaders.
I never said that you said that. We agree that Allat, Aluzza and Manat are not leaders. We also agree that Allat, Aluzza and Manat are "jinn" (as per Chapter 53 and 34;40-41). So the conclusion must be that "jinn" are not leaders. If you want to find out what "jinn" really are then find out what "Allat, Aluzza and Manat" really are. One of the brothers here pointed out to me that there must be a reason why we are told specifically about those idols in the great reading while many other ancient Arabian idols are not mentioned. The God knew that those idols would continue to be relevant to this day as evident from the pagan rituals going on in so-called Mecca.
They were idols created and maintained by the chiefs (the jinn) to subject the commoners.
The chiefs (jinn) made the commoners believe they served/worshipped Allat, Aluzza and Manat, whereas in fact, the commoners, while serving/worshiping these deities were actually serving their chiefs (jinn).Here is how the above statement needs to be modified to bring it in line with the observations you made about Chapter 53 and 3440-41
They were "jinn" created and maintained by the chiefs (the jinn) to subject the commoners.
The chiefs (jinn) made the commoners believe they served/worshipped the controllers, Allat, Aluzza and Manat, whereas in fact, the commoners, while serving/worshiping these deities were actually serving "jinn" created by their chiefs (jinn).The "jinn" is something created by the chiefs NOT the chiefs themselves. This is confirmed by 2917 where Ibrahim describes a similar situation
- But what you serve other than The God are idols and you create falsehood. What you serve other than The God do not control for you any sustenance, therefore seek the sustenance at the God and serve Him and be grateful to Him; to Him you shall be returned.
You may know that the scene of chiefs having control over commoners is omnipresent in the Quran. In addition, another trick used by the chiefs to maintain control over the commoners was to erect a language barrier. Does it not sound familiar to you ?
The question is how do the chiefs have control over commoners. A language barrier is erected to keep people away from the truth. The chiefs maintain control over people by creating falsehood. How do people create things? It is by using their imagination/fantasy. This "creativity" is what is described in 2917, 6112, etc.
Another link to 3440-41 and Chapter 53 is in 4117 where we are told on the one hand that the idolaters don't call upon except females and on the other hand they don't call upon except one exceeding the limits who decorates. At first glance the two statements seem contradictory. The only way to reconcile them is is the females (Allat, Al3uzza and Manat) and the one exceeding the limits who decorates are the same. Allat, Al3uzza and Manat are fantasies produced by an imagination that is exceeding the limits and creatively decorates falsehood.
In passages such as 3130 and 2262 we are told that what they are calling upon is false. Of course something that is false is not real.
This is further confirmed by 2942 where we are told that what the idolaters call upon is in fact "nothing", i.e. it is not real.
The chiefs are certainly real. It is the fantasies of the chiefs that are not real. So in the case of chiefs (ins), it is the chiefs' fantasies (jinn) that people are serving. So you are close.
It is the interaction between the humans (ins) and their fantasies (jinn) that produces falsehood. There is no other way that falsehood can be produced.
Peace,
Ayman