My Thoughts On These Debates So Far

Idris

peace be unto all,

I've been looking at all the debates going on and I thought I'd get a new thread going to change up the frame of debate, so far its been one side going on secular democracy vs. religious laws. The implication of this set up is that the Qu'ran/reading is a religious book whose laws are religious and that the imposition of its laws would be some sort of religious theocracy that forces the people into accepting the religion. This framework has gotten us little or nowhere on the debate and caused confusion such as in the poll because I know mquran and others such as myself dont adhere to this idea of religion so the debate has been argued from different perspectives with no common ground found. Its time to stop debating when we dont have common adherence to the simplest general assumption in the debate, so lets discuss several things

Is the Qu'ran/reading a religious book with religious laws? Lets discuss the true meaning of deen and your views on it, because believe it or not this almost what it all comes down to
Is implimentation of the Qu'ran/reading as a constitution of a social order the same as coercion against one's religion? (mind u that your view on the reading is particulary important in this so answer the first one first)
Is secular democracy an oxymoron? Are you not submitting to the desires of the majority, therefore making the people your god? As submitting to a dictatorship making the dictator your god? Is not every system a form of theocracy? (excluding anarchy which may still be if you look into some of its teachings, its actually a form of extreme particapatory democracy) Just some take one man a god while others take the people as gods? Should we take God as our god in the system?
Wouldn't it be an oxymoron to say the Qu'ran/reading is for running a country because it does not recognize the validity of the nation/state concept in itself and affirms that mankind is one with all boundaries being manmade (we can go all into this and the verses but if you already agree with me than we can speak on it)
Does one need every single law spelled out for us in the Qu'ran/reading to use it as a Constitution basis for establishing a social order? Does the American Constitution spell out every single law? Do not they rule laws based on whether they are constitutional or not?

My Own Question

If we have a democracy couldn't the majority religion support legislation and vote to impose its religion on everybody else? Wouldn't the stopping of this go against the will of the people and therefore democracy?

Anyways my view is that the social order should judge with the Qu'ran/reading as its constitution (544-4, so speaking from that general framework
Should our ruler be elected? Is there an example of an elected ruler in the Qu'ran/reading?
Does consultation mean the imposition of our will on the leader or merely providing advice and ideas?

KGB

Democracy a system created by Elite and powerful people of the society to keep the majority of masses under their control and guard their financial interests. Democracy is nothing more than beautiful sologans. The western democratic system is actually the opperasive system which only benefit rich powerful people with connections. Majority of the people vote for the a imaginery media created image not a real person. The new sologan the media has created is democracy is "Good" and non democratic systems are "Evil".

Qur'an does not support democracy. People do not have the wisdom and intelligence to elect a right person.

Consultation does not mean taking opinion of everyone. The leader of the muslim nation can consult with the scholars of Qur'an. This does not mean every Tom, Dick and Harry has the right to provide their opinion.

Idris

Democracy a system created by Elite and powerful people of the society to keep the majority of masses under their control and guard their financial interests. Democracy is nothing more than beautiful sologans. The western democratic system is actually the opperasive system which only benefit rich powerful people with connections. Majority of the people vote for the a imaginery media created image not a real person. The new sologan the media has created is democracy is "Good" and non democratic systems are "Evil".

I agree, at least that western democracy has come to that, there are still forms of literal or authentic democracy (literally rule of the people) such as in Venezuela but we won't go into that because well get off topic

Qur'an does not support democracy. People do not have the wisdom and intelligence to elect a right person.

The funny thing is that the elitists (such as the "Founding Fathers" of America) used to use that as an excuse against authentic democracy and to justify elitist rule (they were the most "intelligent" and prosperous of society according to their claims) but I would use that argument against any form of human rule other than God

Consultation does not mean taking opinion of everyone. The leader of the muslim nation can consult with the scholars of Qur'an. This does not mean every Tom, Dick and Harry has the right to provide their opinion.

I would disagree on this one, I think opinions of everyone should be taken but measured up to the Qu'ran/reading to check their validity, really no different from false American democracy today other than the fact that the people are not asked or allowed to voice their opinion in Senate/Congress when considering laws

Idris

Anybody else want to offer their views on this, I think the debate under this thread could have the potential to be much more beneficial than under previous threads

KGB

I have no problem with disagreements which could be resolved. Hugo Chavez is the most hated person with American corporations these days.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum guys,

Idris, good to see you back. You should talk to Lote Tree about 'secular democracies'. The man thinks it brings peace but seems to forget the French Revolution

I'm reconsidering my own participation in these thread because I am unsure as to the background information necessary for others to see where Im coming from. For example, I see people see claiming Al-quran is asserting a 'religious law' and this is opposite to a 'secular democracy'. This is of course rubbish but requires detailed refutation to be shown as such.

I think the best way is to prepare a repository of articles and book titles to help the deconstruction of the baathil/falsehood system and pave the way for God's system to be established. I never expected there to be so many opposers to God's system CLAIMING TO BE QURANIC. That took me by surprise. These are the people so intoxicated by 'modern living' but too chicken to openly renounce Islam. So they are trapped in a limbo and cannot open al-quraan because once they do, it will rip thier arguments apart.

Perhaps the best way is to leave our info out there and act. Al-quraan says

Say "O my people! Do whatever ye can I will do (my part) soon will ye know who it is whose end will be in the end certain it is that the wrong-doers will not prosper."(6/135)

The best argument is al-hajj.

Idris

peace mquran,

Salaamun alaikum guys,

Idris, good to see you back. You should talk to Lote Tree about 'secular democracies'. The man thinks it brings peace but seems to forget the French Revolution

Plus when American "democracy" (plutocracy in actuality that has evolved into a "corporatacracy") was established by the constitution that didn't stop the genocide and theft of the land from the Natives, it didn't stop slavery and all the slave rebellions, plus there were dozens of small rebellions by the working class against their oppressors, we could get into these if Lote Tree wants to talk about it, democracy has rarely ever brought peace, and if it has then it was the peace of the battlefield after they were done slaughtering everyone

I'm reconsidering my own participation in these thread because I am unsure as to the background information necessary for others to see where Im coming from. For example, I see people see claiming Al-quran is asserting a 'religious law' and this is opposite to a 'secular democracy'. This is of course rubbish but requires detailed refutation to be shown as such.

I know, this is why I started a new thread, the other debates were frustrating to me for this reason

I think the best way is to prepare a repository of articles and book titles to help the deconstruction of the baathil/falsehood system and pave the way for God's system to be established. I never expected there to be so many opposers to God's system CLAIMING TO BE QURANIC. That took me by surprise. These are the people so intoxicated by 'modern living' but too chicken to openly renounce Islam. So they are trapped in a limbo and cannot open al-quraan because once they do, it will rip thier arguments apart.

They want the quran/reading to be a personal self-help book that has no part in a socio-economic order, this is a big mistake

Anyways I guess nobody wants to participate in an intelligent debate on the topic, they'd rather just be like "secular democracy is the only way", "the Quran doesnt have enough laws", "100 lashes isn't appropriate in these days", its all bs

stillearning

Anyways I guess nobody wants to participate in an intelligent debate on the topic, they'd rather just be like "secular democracy is the only way", "the Quran doesnt have enough laws", "100 lashes isn't appropriate in these days", its all bs

Can you elaborate tis further are you saying that quran has enough laws or not enough laws.
What do you mean 100 lashes isn't appropriate.

Just a thought why are so many obcessed with other peoples intelligence or do they have hang ups about their own intelligence!

Idris

peace stillearning,

Can you elaborate tis further are you saying that quran has enough laws or not enough laws.

the reading/quran isn't a law book, it provides laws but its socio-economic purpose is to provide guidelines on how to structure the system of society

What do you mean 100 lashes isn't appropriate.

It is but some "modern" people don't think it should be applied, we must follow God's law not the desires of modern society

Just a thought why are so many obcessed with other peoples intelligence or do they have hang ups about their own intelligence!

I said nothing about the intelligence of other's, some of these debates I've seen have turned out childish and I was just hoping for a good debate under this thread

SwedenMajidah

Salaam all,

Really I can't understand why we wouldn't be able to use Quranic law in a society today.

I mean why are all so stuck with all already existing manmade laws?

If you will living according Quran and are understand it's purpose for mankind then you can live a good and peaceful life.

I don't need a rule for how i will treat drunk drivers, because Quran don't say how to deal with them right!

But it's rather a way of life, how to behave and how to act, if you are a believer and follower of Al-Quran.

Quran have plenty of verses which telling you how to be just and humble yourself and be good to other ppl.

When you have accept that and can follow that then the step isn't so far to take about how to create an islamic society.

For me it's not impossible and i could gladly be the one who help building one Insha'Allah.

Peace Majidah

savage_carrot

Peace sis Maria, all,

I think it's because most everyone has made a membership club out of their 'gods'...my god is better than yours and if we are going to be following 'scriptural' laws then it will be ours rather than yours and if not 'scriptural' then my laws are better than yours that are stuck in camels footprints...the ones that want a 'secular' society want to keep scriptural laws out of it, but ironically are following other laws that are probably worse off than what the reading states, but thats okay...it's 'modern' don't you know...they claim it's flexible, but every single law made to oppress people does it's job and then when enough hue and cry is made about it a new one takes it's place. In the end, the ones that make longterm sense would finally seal the deal I suppose, there can be only one sorta thing (highlander)...we need to see if proper implementation can reach this goal.

For believers I would think the stance of using the quran as a basic framework and expanding on the areas it doesn't give details on is fine...then you have the problem of what shall we do with different interpretations...hell's horses man...vote for which one is suitable, we can maybe keep the democrats happy then

We need to maybe discuss on what kind of process we could have to choose an interpretation, because thats one amongst other things that many are unhappy about...should a 'messenger' figure do it, can we vote? Secondly, we have the 'how shall we choose the one who will step up to the plate', here some say we will know when it happens, and some want batman...I don't know the answers, but hopefully with some more discussion we might figure it out...hope springs eternal...

Jaxal

SaLaM SM

Really I can't understand why we wouldn't be able to use Quranic law in a society today.

Becoz Quran wasnt sent with a purpose to give laws on running countries. It is as simple as that.

I don't need a rule for how i will treat drunk drivers, because Quran don't say how to deal with them right!

You tell that the mother of a 3 year old whose whose son was run over by a drunk driver. Talking is easy.

Quran have plenty of verses which telling you how to be just and humble yourself and be good to other ppl.

Those verses arent enough to run a country.

SwedenMajidah

Salaam Sis Nadia,

Well I agree with you.

Yes we can not make everyone happy that's for sure.

But therefore a messenger must turn up, because Quran says that we shall not only obey God but also his messenger.

Peace Majidah

SwedenMajidah

Peace Jaxal,

I disagree with you that Quran wasn't supposed to be used for run a country.

I mean the message of peace and patiency and how to behave and all this plus actually rules for some things.

I don't say that humans can't create rules and laws in a country but those rules and laws cannot go against Quran.

Of course there must be a law for how deal with a drunk drivers, but that was only an example that all laws mustn't exist in Quran.

Quran stands for the good moral and be thankful to our Creator and to deal just with our fellow brothers and sisters.

What is the problem really, why you throw away Quran?

Is Quran only a beautiful book in your bookshelf????

Quran is showing a lifestyle and we live all in a society so i see no reason to abandon Quran but rather follow it to reach to the goal of our life here on earth.

Peace Majidah

mquran

Salaamun alaikum,

MajidahBut therefore a messenger must turn up, because Quran says that we shall not only obey God but also his messenger.

Exactly right. Of course, most people would reject a new messenger, sadly.

NadiaFor believers I would think the stance of using the quran as a basic framework and expanding on the areas it doesn't give details on is fine...then you have the problem of what shall we do with different interpretations...hell's horses man...vote for which one is suitable, we can maybe keep the democrats happy then

I personally wouldnt get involved in a group where decisions are made democratically. It doesn't work. The best way is to carve out your own domain and rule singly. I await a person who's inspired to follow the book and I will line up behind him, inshaa Allah.

We need to maybe discuss on what kind of process we could have to choose an interpretation, because thats one amongst other things that many are unhappy about...should a 'messenger' figure do it, can we vote? Secondly, we have the 'how shall we choose the one who will step up to the plate', here some say we will know when it happens, and some want batman...I don't know the answers, but hopefully with some more discussion we might figure it out...hope springs eternal...

Nadia, the thing is, all these questions have been answered. The problem is, some of us simply reject the book. You may think im being harsh or judgemental but im simply looking at the book and looking at personalities and i see the people who claim to believe refusing to refer to Allah and his rasool. The book is so clear about methodology. The question if we submit or we do not.

mquran

Idris They want the quran/reading to be a personal self-help book that has no part in a socio-economic order, this is a big mistake

LOL....deepak chopra even took his metaphysics, by his own admission, from Rumi sometimes. Rumi was an esoteric commentator of al-quraan!
Circle closes it seems.

Jaxal

I swear i posted a reply to SM. Maybe the gremlins deleted it. But here it is again.

I disagree with you that Quran wasn't supposed to be used for run a country.

Thats alright. Thats the beauty of free will.

I don't say that humans can't create rules and laws in a country but those rules and laws cannot go against Quran.

That is what i have been saying all along.

Of course there must be a law for how deal with a drunk drivers, but that was only an example that all laws mustn't exist in Quran.

Well, perhaps you can show me from the Quran where it talks about speeding?

What is the problem really, why you throw away Quran?

Dont make assumptions SM. No one is throwing away anything.

Is Quran only a beautiful book in your bookshelf????

Its there along with the Torah and the Bible. Its just a book. Altered and changed like the other two.

SwedenMajidah

Salaam Jaxal,

Oh so was someone really deleted your post?

Poor Jaxal!!!!!

Well can you be so kind and tell me what it means to run a country?

I'm waiting for your reply

Peace Majidah

unknownuser

Anybody else want to offer their views on this, I think the debate under this thread could have the potential to be much more beneficial than under previous threads

Just a small comment mate

I really believe that the Quran supports democracy, the word democracy just didn't exist then

what I mean, all the Quran teachings is nothing but democracy, I may start looking for a few verses to support what I mean

the short definition for democracy is freedom, right?

peace

Prince

Salaam!!

What I'm finding in most topics or posts by people and I'm no exception is that when an opinion is posted or a concept its not backed up by quranic verses and therefore its just like any writing or hadith. If we truly believe Quran is the very word of God then why aren't we posting verses. I'm God willing going to try and do that most often.

Jaxal I gotta disagree with you on this one brother. Quran is everything from a spiritual book to a book telling us the ONLY laws on how to run a society. Obviously it does not have every single crime and punishment in the Quran and thats left to us to decide just like it doesn't state the exact dress code for women and its left upto the women to decide.

You may say but the Quran says its fully detailed. My understanding and plz someone do correct me is that its fully detailed as far as God is concerned. He's given us a map(Quran) and we've got to walk the actual path(our life). The answers are all in the Quran about everything you want to know I believe.....it may not be specific but it certainly will give you an answer to a dilemma or situation you come across. Anyone got anymore about this fully detailed part of the Quran as I've come across people saying Quran is not fully detailed as it doesn't tell you how to build a fridge for example. lol

PEACE