What does 'islam' mean to you?
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So in order to get through life in a good fashion, man is so incompetant that he needs a book of instructions?
Well, I think you'll agree that starvation, mass murder and oppression is hardly the mark of competence?
Are you aware of the level of illiteracy on a global scale? How on earth do you think man coexisted BEFORE organized religion? In most parts of the world he did just fine and did not encounter prejudice and warfar on a large scale UNLTIL religion came into play. Natural law is right in front of you with no abstract, no subjectivity. Just look at it. No interpretations needed, no conflict of interpretation, it just IS what it is. Now go look at al the religions of the world and it won't take long for you to notice that the basis of all of them is exactly the same as what you will observe in the only definate, without a doubt, rule book presented by the creator, creation itself?
I wasn't proposing a religion or indeed anything at all...yet. I am simply saying that your statement of belief is difficult to uphold once you encounter another sawtooth who's also guided by god yet does things in a totally opposite way to you.
Now like I said, some poeple choose religion for either personal reasons or cultural ones and that's fine. I am simply not on that particular path, although I don't doubt both choices will take us to the same eventual ends. Be kind to your fellow man, attempt tolerance of what is different, respect creation and appreciate the beauty provided in it, love as much as you can, learn to accept what you have learned to tolerate etc.... I don't need proof from any book, I don't need anyone to interpret it for me, I see it everyday and everyday I ammore in awe of it's brilliance. NATURE is the grandest miracle. Everyone finds their own means to the ultimate ends, and above all I try my hardest to respect THAT.
No one's trying to force any path on you. This was a discussion to see how well your approach stands up in a rhetorical situation. Your counter-response which includes 'organised religion' might be because you've misunderstood what al-quraan proposes for humankind. No way does 'organised religion' describe al-quraan's grand project.
Nature is the grandest miracle but does it propose values for humankind? For a few hundred years, European man was enslaving African man. Shall we take that 'nature' (if we lived in that particular period, that's what we would have seen) to mean that European man are, 'by nature' superior? Perhaps that's what led to the belief that African man was 3/5ths human. No less than an American president thought this. Nature is never a teacher, its a constant repository of signs. Humankind needs guidance, whether from inspiration or from a book.
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Peace be upon you all,
MQ, glad you are back. Leyla has correctly elaborated on the issue which led me to say "yamn al deen" happens everyday. I will research the info you gave about that and respond.
Sawtooth, I was not saying you dont believe in the God, I was only discussing PATHS. I do agree with you that a book is not necessary. The God "speaks" to all mankind, but many are not tuned in properly. Objective evidence shows us the right path. Cause and effect of the God's laws teaches us.
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Peace be upon you MQ,
I can't agree there because yaumiddeen is defined as
(It will be) the Day when no soul shall have power (to do) aught for another For the command, that Day, will be (wholly) for God (82/19)
If the God blesses someone, there is nothing the human can do about it, likewise for the "punishment". If I choose to jump off a building, no one can change the laws of gravity to keep me from falling to the ground.
So yaumiddeen is a specifc day in the future. Its not happening now and its occurence is a momentous event (see the whole of chapter 82, please).
I disagree, each day is momentous when we maintain our AWE of creation, and likewise, the time of judgement, (the effects of our choices) are momentous.
Can you imagine how a person would act if they treated each decision with the AWE of a momentous occasion? This is how it should be, but most of mankind are lulled to sleep, waiting for a FINAL Judgement, which there will be because there is cause and effect in all things, but we have to concentrate on the day to day judgements.
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So in order to get through life in a good fashion, man is so incompetant that he needs a book of instructions?
Well, I think you'll agree that starvation, mass murder and oppression is hardly the mark of competence?
Are you aware of the level of illiteracy on a global scale? How on earth do you think man coexisted BEFORE organized religion? In most parts of the world he did just fine and did not encounter prejudice and warfar on a large scale UNLTIL religion came into play. Natural law is right in front of you with no abstract, no subjectivity. Just look at it. No interpretations needed, no conflict of interpretation, it just IS what it is. Now go look at al the religions of the world and it won't take long for you to notice that the basis of all of them is exactly the same as what you will observe in the only definate, without a doubt, rule book presented by the creator, creation itself?
I wasn't proposing a religion or indeed anything at all...yet. I am simply saying that your statement of belief is difficult to uphold once you encounter another sawtooth who's also guided by god yet does things in a totally opposite way to you.
Now like I said, some poeple choose religion for either personal reasons or cultural ones and that's fine. I am simply not on that particular path, although I don't doubt both choices will take us to the same eventual ends. Be kind to your fellow man, attempt tolerance of what is different, respect creation and appreciate the beauty provided in it, love as much as you can, learn to accept what you have learned to tolerate etc.... I don't need proof from any book, I don't need anyone to interpret it for me, I see it everyday and everyday I ammore in awe of it's brilliance. NATURE is the grandest miracle. Everyone finds their own means to the ultimate ends, and above all I try my hardest to respect THAT.
No one's trying to force any path on you. This was a discussion to see how well your approach stands up in a rhetorical situation. Your counter-response which includes 'organised religion' might be because you've misunderstood what al-quraan proposes for humankind. No way does 'organised religion' describe al-quraan's grand project.
Nature is the grandest miracle but does it propose values for humankind? For a few hundred years, European man was enslaving African man. Shall we take that 'nature' (if we lived in that particular period, that's what we would have seen) to mean that European man are, 'by nature' superior? Perhaps that's what led to the belief that African man was 3/5ths human. No less than an American president thought this. Nature is never a teacher, its a constant repository of signs. Humankind needs guidance, whether from inspiration or from a book.
OK so you are telling me that since religion came about there is no mass murder or starvation??????? Have you ever heard of Sudan? If someone is to do opposite as me, I wil respect it until it begins to hurt others. Hell I am quite friendly with a satanist. Surprises the hell out of me! As for africa, white men baught slaves from the BLACK men of africa that had captured other black en from other tribes for trade (so your homework. white men were not going to go to all the trouble of war and conquest to capture slaves for trade). Personally, thought i believe all men equal, I consider white man to be the least evolved in the spiritual sense. Show me a single example in nature that is a repository for sins. Show me a single instance where nature is NOT teaching us something useful. Really, I have never encountered such in my life.
Religion has "guided" humans right into war prejudice and genocide al over the name of who's ideal of god was right.
Isn't there something about Satan presenting himself as god to fool man? Many times I think that the holy books and teachings are just that. It is hard to imagine and god being happy to see his creation destroy eachother in his name.
Don't mind me I am just a peace junkie
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Peace be upon you Sawtoth,
Don't mind me I am just a peace junkie
Thats an excellent addiction
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OK so you are telling me that since religion came about there is no mass murder or starvation??????? Have you ever heard of Sudan? If someone is to do opposite as me, I wil respect it until it begins to hurt others. Hell I am quite friendly with a satanist. Surprises the hell out of me! As for africa, white men baught slaves from the BLACK men of africa that had captured other black en from other tribes for trade (so your homework. white men were not going to go to all the trouble of war and conquest to capture slaves for trade). Personally, thought i believe all men equal, I consider white man to be the least evolved in the spiritual sense. Show me a single example in nature that is a repository for sins. Show me a single instance where nature is NOT teaching us something useful. Really, I have never encountered such in my life.
Sorry but you've missed my point completely here. I'm no pro-religion in the manner by which you define religion. I'm pro-Al-Quraan which isn't a book which proposes 'religion' in the normative sense'. I say if the world is ruled by it's laws, salaam or loosely translated as 'peace' will reign.
As for the slave trade, I do realise that co-optation of African man was necessary, but the very fact it was achieved shows 'naturalists' that it is natural law. Natural law stems from empiricism failing to realise that humanity's percpetion is limited by time and space.
Events (what I call 'nature') are to me, merely confirmations of the predictions of humanity which Allah has provided. It can't teach me anything values-based unless values were imposed on it.
Remember that European man benefitted tremendously in the early years of the slave trade. According to your natural philosophy, slavery would then be good.
Religion has "guided" humans right into war prejudice and genocide al over the name of who's ideal of god was right.
Agreed. But is that the fault of religion or the misapproriation of nefarious men?
Isn't there something about Satan presenting himself as god to fool man? Many times I think that the holy books and teachings are just that. It is hard to imagine and god being happy to see his creation destroy eachother in his name.
It's strange to see how your 'natural instincts' has allowed to you project such misrepresentations into books. I suggest you read instead of conject, sir.
Don't mind me I am just a peace junkie
Can peace be achieved without vigilance?
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Peace be upon you MQ,
If the God blesses someone, there is nothing the human can do about it, likewise for the "punishment". If I choose to jump off a building, no one can change the laws of gravity to keep me from falling to the ground.Yes, but that's just one person. Chapter 82 is dealing with an event of a huge proporition. An entire change takes place and the command is pointed back to Allah.
I think you've limited your metaphorisation to just signs in the self, Kylester. Don't forget that signs also exist in the earth (51/20-21)
I disagree, each day is momentous when we maintain our AWE of creation, and likewise, the time of judgement, (the effects of our choices) are momentous.
That's great but al-quraan already has concepts for this taqwa and hamd.
Can you imagine how a person would act if they treated each decision with the AWE of a momentous occasion? This is how it should be, but most of mankind are lulled to sleep, waiting for a FINAL Judgement, which there will be because there is cause and effect in all things, but we have to concentrate on the day to day judgements
Observation of the world will tell you that not how it works. Warmongers are currently pillaging the world, buddy. Thier judgement hasn't come yet. Al-quraan says to follow inspiration and endure UNTIL the judgement of Allah comes (HATTA yahkum Allah.., 10/109)
So it appears to me that there's a time delay in the law of equal and opposite reaction.
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You are mistakenly puting the actions of man into the subject of natural law. Because of free will and the ability to CHOOSE to go AGAINST nature, man cannot be jusdge by NATURAL law. We can certainly LEARN from it, but we are not necesarilly subject to it as teh rest of creation is. We are aparently LESS evolved
I don't begrudge you your faith in anything, but I have a personal philosophy that works quite well for me and affords me the same knowledge of the creator. Like I said, different means, same ends
Peace requires tolerance, acceptance, understanding and love. Not vigilance. Vigilance leads to aggression and in peace agression is dead.
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You are mistakenly puting the actions of man into the subject of natural law. Because of free will and the ability to CHOOSE to go AGAINST nature, man cannot be jusdge by NATURAL law. We can certainly LEARN from it, but we are not necesarilly subject to it as teh rest of creation is. We are aparently LESS evolved
How do you know he's going against nature? As I said, the white slavers enjoyed the benefits of slavery so if its natural to enjoy benefits, how would you know what's ethically good or bad?
Certain kinds of fish eat their young. How do you feel about that?
I don't begrudge you your faith in anything, but I have a personal philosophy that works quite well for me and affords me the same knowledge of the creator. Like I said, different means, same ends
Good, I dont begrudge you either. We're having a discussion and I'm exploring your thought system. That's the purpose of this forum.
Peace requires tolerance, acceptance, understanding and love. Not vigilance. Vigilance leads to aggression and in peace agression is dead.
Funnily, the religion which preached your paficisim ended up conquering entire continents after psychologically disarming their colonial victims.
I was think Tutu who said When they came, they had the bible and we the land and gold. They told us to close our eyes and pray (to jesus the meek and mild). When we opened them, we had the bible and they had the land and gold.
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And exactly what "religion" are you assuming preached the pacifism I follow? I have a feeling we are complete misunderstanding each other. I mean COMPLETELY!!
I think this discussion needs to start over from scratch in another topic. Right now I am not sure where you are getting your ideas about me as they seem totally OFF.
For now let's agree to drop the subject until another oprotuity arises to enter into discussion without all this misunderstanding going on.
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And exactly what "religion" are you assuming preached the pacifism I follow? I have a feeling we are complete misunderstanding each other. I mean COMPLETELY!!
I will rephrase if that's ok
Funnily, the religion which preached your BRAND OF paficisim ended up conquering entire continents after psychologically disarming their colonial victims.
Its quite clear to me that you don't follow any religion. My point is, the people who are supposedly pacifists as the son of their God is turned out to be very big exploiters indeed.
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And exactly what "religion" are you assuming preached the pacifism I follow? I have a feeling we are complete misunderstanding each other. I mean COMPLETELY!!
I will rephrase if that's ok
Funnily, the religion which preached your BRAND OF paficisim ended up conquering entire continents after psychologically disarming their colonial victims.
Its quite clear to me that you don't follow any religion. My point is, the people who are supposedly pacifists as the son of their God is turned out to be very big exploiters indeed.
You are still missing it. No religion preached my brand of paficism. True the quakers preached complete pacifism but I do not and have never followed their teachings. If anything, the closest cultural beliefe system to my own would have to be somewhere between the Native North Americans and the Austrailian Aboriginals. I believe in no son of god, I believe only in teachers sent to lead by example with no expectation of the people. I believe in a single creator, and a link between all of creation.
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Salaam!
I?m sorry to say that but in my humble opinion your take on
religion? is a little bit superficial here. First of all,religion? is a kind of word that needs to be defined. It is just a word to work with, in the beginning, and nothing more.
It can have many very different layers of meaning. And most of them are filled by modern eurocentric perceptions and experiences.
These perceptions and experiences are not really acceptable when coming toAustralian Aboriginal? religion or the d?n presented in the qur?n. Both have one thing in common that does not fit with, lets say, most of modern christianity. They are both a total and consistent system exploring the whole nature of human experiences, while modern christianity has retired tofaith?.
When you?re really close tonative? religions you would also understand the frame in which the quranic system is working. We?re not just talking aboutfaith? orspirituality?here. We talk about a wholesome system for life that can prove itself when you live it. It is easy to lump several quite different experiences together under the termreligion?. And then accuse all these different systems and experiences of the same fault.
But it is not very consistent to do so.
By the way, just to mention it, Native Americans had their `holy wars? as well ....... .
There is maybe almost no cultural, ideological, religious label that died not, I would assume ... .However, this brings me to another problem that I would like to point your attention to
A lot of people have done persecution and have fought wars in the name offreedom?. What does this say aboutfreedom?? That it is a dangerous and inhumane ideology ???
A lot of people have persecuted and have fought wars in the name ofpeace?? What does this say aboutpeace?? Thatpeace? is a dangerous and cruel ideology ??? These historical events tell us nothing about the true meaning offreedom? andpeace?. They just tell us a lot about humankind. That among humans there are always some who will be willing to abuse every kind of term. So, why should one care about those idiots who cause cruelty and corruption on earth while misusing terms likeGod?,isl?m?, qur?n when defining those terms ?? Why should you place your interpretation ofGod?,isl?m? andqur?n? into the hands of these corrupted people?
Would you also do so with your interpretation ofpeace? andfreedom???
Sorry, you?re running into a logical problem here.Rather it is the qur?n itself which defines the qur?n and not some mischiefmakers. And the qur?n itself denounces those who cause corruption on earth and who break peace. The qur?n itself denounces those that use the name of God to do cruelty.
Thanks for reminding us of surah 82.
However, I am not sure (yet) if I would accept your interpretation here entirely.
See,
I would say that now the command is also for God.
And also I would say that now no soul has power aught for another as well.
I agree that surah 82 is in a certain way describing a specific event, though.
However, this event is a developing process, a stretched event, if you want. Starting with creation and culminating in resurrection.
A process of destruction and termination.
See, when you look at e.g. 82/2 this is not something that just will happen sometime in the future. It is happening now already. It has started already with the creation of the universe. The whole universe in constantly in a state of loss, moving towards its creator.
Humanity itself is constantly in a state of loss as well (e.g. 103/2?).
As some people say, you constantly die since the day you were born. You can not escape this eternal law.
This does not begin in the future. It will find its culmination, its climax then, yes. But it started with creation already, it is part of Allah?s d?n.
What will be seen in the future is already recorded now (82/10-11).
And it was already written down/ordained by Allah before (9/51).
With this in mind I see it as possible to read 82/14-15 as `the wrongdoers are in the hellfire, since they entered the process of the rulings of God?.
This is what is already ordained now for every wrongdoer. This is how the laws of the d?n are working now for them.
The only way to change these workings is to change your identity from a wrongdoer to someone better, to step into another flow of the process.
Then 82/13 applies. Again it will apply now already.Wow, great what you said about yaum il akhir. Yep, al-Akhir is also Allah Himself. Hmmm ..... .
peace,
Leyla
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OK Leyla, first you just MUST tell me one of these "holy wars" between NA. Sure there was warfare but "holy wars"? When I refer to NA and Aboriginals I am not thinking in terms of anything religious. I am thinking in cultural terms. For the sake of discussion I should say that I seperate religion and spirituality. Very little of my "christian" upbringing plays any part in my personal philosphy. Of course I don't find it all bad nor do I find any "religion" all bad. Jst not a road that I need or want to take. Been there done that and it did not do for me what going out and searching has.
I personally see no need to study, analyze, memorize or carry around any book in order to know god. Nor do I see any reason to put anyone else between myself and the creator as is practiced in any religion involving preiests rabbis or any other term for the same. I have a very personal relationship with the creator that does not rely on anyone else's words or translation of words. It is not steeped in language or even history. It involves the here and now. It involves myself and my place in the circle of life. God created noah and moses and cane and able and the whole famdamily that everyone is so into, but he also created me and MY family. Now I can either choose to spend time and energy on the who what and where of 2500 years ago, or I can live inthe here and now and know the creator in my heart, in the wind and the water, in the earth beneath my feet and even in the squirrels and rabbits that seem to think I spend all summer tending a garden simply so they can bulk up for winter.
The creator reach out to different people in different places in different ways for a reason. I respect those differences. I don't always respect what man chose to do with the knowledge presented to him, but I am still human for the time being and not without my own faults.
I have no religion or faith, but I have deep spiritual beliefes and an ever growing personal philosphy that works for ME. That is all I am saying here. My sister uses the church and what she gets from it as a means to her ends and that is totally fine, in fact it is a beautiful thing and I hope and pray that it does fill her with a joy that I have attained. Different strokes for different folks
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Peace mquran,
Nature is never a teacher, its a constant repository of signs. Humankind needs guidance, whether from inspiration or from a book.
NATURE/SIGNS/GUIDANCE has, is and always will be our teacher, without which there would be no books. In other words, NATURE has taught man to write books, not the other way round.
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Peace
I wonder how people accept that nature teachs humans and reject that God is the one who teachs humans
the ignornace is coming from this fact that they are not aware of it
The nature itself needs to be expalined, the problem is it can't be expalined unless you include a Supreme God in the concept
now that is funny indeed
peace to all
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Who said the creator does not teach humans. I did read that here at all. I was saying that the creator infact DOES teach humans THROUGH his own creation.
Nature needs no explanation. It exists as it was intended to. What needs explanation? It seems to me that Holy Books and thier teaching are what need explanation. Hell people spend their whole lives pouring over the damn things in order to GIVE them explanation. Nature neither asks for nor requires it. ANYONE can experience it, see it and know it.
I am reading right end left people seeking for or giving explanation of every other word of one book or teaching or another.
I personally involve the creator in EVERYTHING. There is no other way.
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Who said the creator does not teach humans. I did read that here at all. I was saying that the creator infact DOES teach humans THROUGH his own creation.
Nature needs no explanation. It exists as it was intended to. What needs explanation? It seems to me that Holy Books and thier teaching are what need explanation. Hell people spend their whole lives pouring over the damn things in order to GIVE them explanation. Nature neither asks for nor requires it. ANYONE can experience it, see it and know it.
I am reading right end left people seeking for or giving explanation of every other word of one book or teaching or another.
I personally involve the creator in EVERYTHING. There is no other way.
Excuse me saw, you need to provide compelling evidences that nature is our teacher as well controls everything
philosphical opnions are not accepted because simply most philosphers if not all are nothing but a bunch of God rejectors infidels
peace
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Peace,
I wonder how people accept that nature teachs humans and reject that God is the one who teachs humans
Who said anything about rejecting GOD viz-a-viz nature? I wonder how poeple can write books without NATURE? Amazing idea
the ignornace is coming from this fact that they are not aware of it
The nature itself needs to be expalined, the problem is it can't be expalined unless you include a Supreme God in the concept
now that is funny indeed
Very funny indeed ? The ignorance is coming from people who reject NATURE as creation of GOD, hence the Quran.
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And when did I say nature controls everything?
I have a sneeking suspicion that this would be a futile debate to have with you. Let's just say that it is what I believe and I happy with it. It is NOT what you believe you are happy with that.
If you have a specific question about my beliefes I would be happy to answer it but I am not about to go on a long drawn out debate that will go no where with a mind not willing to accept let alone tolerate differnces.
Peace to you and I hope you can respect my position if not tolerate it