evolution!
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The truth that we CAN see is the truth given to us by our maker. Why must it all of it be either hidden or stuck in some internal saerch? Occam's razor .
The most obvious IS the answer. Don't complicate it.
I addressed Phoenix not you,
Anyway,,,We belive in what we see,,,,but my point is that we also belive in what we dont see directly (in case of our religion). And if we think that anything we seems to be gainst the saying of our Creator, then that thing or evidence in not actually misunderstood by us. That evidence is not actually an evidence but a misleading concept. Try to understand by the following example
Quran Says
1090 to 92
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And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed I believe that there is no Allah save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).What! Now! When hitherto thou hast rebelled and been of the wrong-doers?
But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee. Lo! most of mankind are heedless of Our portents.
"The above translated verses refer to the Firon (the emperor of Intiant Egypt).
Allah said in these verses, that he saved the body of Firon from total decay. Till the start of 20th century, nobody had seen the body of Firon, Non muslims (in the same manner of phoenix) asked muslims that where is the body of Firon, they dont see any evidence. But Muslims belived this divine Scripture Quran, that if Allah said that about saving the body of Firon as a portent, that it is True.
In 1902 (I have doubt between 1902 and 1904), the body of Firon was found. Now all the world knows about that body of Firon, which has been showcased in Egypt now. Still non-muslims are not convinced about the Truth of Islam.
Regards.
Virtualeye. -
The truth that we CAN see is the truth given to us by our maker. Why must it all of it be either hidden or stuck in some internal saerch? Occam's razor .
The most obvious IS the answer. Don't complicate it.
Give me your email address, and I send you a pdf file. That will help you know what I am trying to refer, My explaination power is limited due to lack of vocabulary etc.
Regards.
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peace virtualeye,
so firon's body was found, so what?
I am talking about saying of Quran.
I mean to say, that the muslims before 20th century did not find or see Firon's body anywhere. But still they believed that Allah has said that He saved Firon's body, then it is 100%. No Muslims said that I see what I believe, so I dont belive in Firon's body because I dont see that anywhere.
It was just a small example I remember, otherwise there are dozen's of more appropriate examples of believing without seeing. Certainly the biggest one is to believe in Allah without seeing him.
One more thing. If science would be correct in telling the reality then every scientist and logical person would have believed in God and perhaps embraced Islam. This is not the case in reality, which means science is not the answer to all our questions.
Previously Science (believing what seeing and thinking) told about the earth to be flat until 2 or 3 hundred years ago. But Allah told us 1400 years ago in Quran that the earth is like the shape of an egg of ostrich. And if you go observe the egg of ostrich then it is exactly like the earth.
I hope you understand my point, that we should not believe our mispercetption or misunderstaing that is against the saying of our Creator.
I have sent some files to sawtooth, If you give me your email address privately then I will also send you some files to have better understaning,
I believe that my explanation power is not so good. I will send you some reliable material.
Furthermore for a very good text on the net,,,,Please refer to
http//www.irf.net/irf/download/index.htm
and specially
http//www.irf.net/book3.zip
It is an eye opener for all Muslims and non-Muslims.
Regards.
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And one more thing.
The author of the books at www.irf.net , Dr. Zakir Naik, is a very well known Muslims scholar and an expert of comparative religions. His knowledge of all versions of Bible and books of Hindus and bhudists and Jew, is far far better than any peson who belongs to these religions. And obviously he has a very good understanding of Quran.
There is no non-muslim in the world who can win the debate challenge from him, because only a person belonging to the true religion can win the debate.
Regards.
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Hi all,
The author of the books at www.irf.net , Dr. Zakir Naik, is a very well known Muslims scholar and an expert of comparative religions. His knowledge of all versions of Bible and books of Hindus and bhudists and Jew, is far far better than any peson who belongs to these religions. And obviously he has a very good understanding of Quran.
There is no non-muslim in the world who can win the debate challenge from him, because only a person belonging to the true religion can win the debate.
I wouldnt suggest irf for Quranic teaching, coz they use a lot of hadeeth and include it alongside Quran and call it the islamic shariah.
Zakir Naik is good with comparitive religions and debates pertaining to that.
But he also inculdes 'sunni' beliefs and hadeeths into 'islam'.Peace!
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Hi all,
The author of the books at www.irf.net , Dr. Zakir Naik, is a very well known Muslims scholar and an expert of comparative religions. His knowledge of all versions of Bible and books of Hindus and bhudists and Jew, is far far better than any peson who belongs to these religions. And obviously he has a very good understanding of Quran.
There is no non-muslim in the world who can win the debate challenge from him, because only a person belonging to the true religion can win the debate.
I wouldnt suggest irf for Quranic teaching, coz they use a lot of hadeeth and include it alongside Quran and call it the islamic shariah.
Zakir Naik is good with comparitive religions and debates pertaining to that.
But irf also have 'sunni' beliefs and hadeeths incorporated into 'islam'.Peace!
Kindly refer to my first reply in this topic (on the first page).
I would just spot some light on this topic further.
If you are an educated and you attended school and college, then I ask you , did you ever say to your parents and teachers that I have learnt how to read the books so I dont need any teacher to teach me. I will try to understand all the course books and I dont need to go to school or college?What is the purpose of a teacher? The material is already there in the book? A teacher is the elaborate and teach the students in more practicle way and to solve and elaborate the articles from the course book. Agreed?
In the same way, Allah sent the Book Quran and sent the teacher Muhammad (SAV) to teach us "SCRIPTURE AND WISDOM" (according to the words of quran).
I will send you the references from the Quran in the next comment after a day or two, Inshallah.
And kindly try to understand my comments being neutral and not from the eye of an anti-sunni.
And before asking and putting me gather references, you should try to take some time in understanding the references from Quran I give.
Also I need to know, if you offer prayer or not, if yes then do you do Wazoo? if yes, then how do you know that you need to offer prayer the way you are doing, and the method of wazoo. Where did you get the method of prayer and wazoo?
Sincerely,
Virtualeye. -
Hi Virtual eye,
Kindly refer to my first reply in this topic (on the first page).
I didnt realise u were making the irf suggestion, for followers of Hadith. But, Peace. Every one is free to follow what they understand as true.
I would just spot some light on this topic further.
If you are an educated and you attended school and college, then I ask you , did you ever say to your parents and teachers that I have learnt how to read the books so I dont need any teacher to teach me. I will try to understand all the course books and I dont need to go to school or college?The teachers in school/college teach, promote nothing of their own. They merely explain what is in the books and authentic sources, and add no information of their own.
What is the purpose of a teacher? The material is already there in the book? A teacher is the elaborate and teach the students in more practicle way and to solve and elaborate the articles from the course book. Agreed?
Not really. The teachers only explain whatever is already in the book.
In the same way, Allah sent the Book Quran and sent the teacher Muhammad (SAV) to teach us "SCRIPTURE AND WISDOM" (according to the words of quran).
I do not agree with u on this, coz, according to my understanding, Prophet Mohammed is a messenger of Allah who was entitled with a responsibility of conveying/delivering the message(Quran) of God to mankind.
Other than that the Prophet Mohammed was a good and righteous human being. He was prohibited by Allah to make any modifications in Quran or make any new rules and claim it as from Allah."It (the Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe. Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other teachings, We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Wateen (Major artery of the heart), none of you could have helped him."6943-47
I will send you the references from the Quran in the next comment after a day or two, Inshallah.
I suggest u open a thread in hadeeth section, if u wanna discuss this. Its inappropriate in this section, dont u think?
And kindly try to understand my comments being neutral and not from the eye of an anti-sunni.
Don't worry. I am not anti-anything. My opinions/views are always based on my understanding only.
And before asking and putting me gather references, you should try to take some time in understanding the references from Quran I give.
I have been there, virtual eye. But I will surely look into what u present.
Also I need to know, if you offer prayer or not, if yes then do you do Wazoo? if yes, then how do you know that you need to offer prayer the way you are doing, and the method of wazoo. Where did you get the method of prayer and wazoo?.
I do pray. I was born in a sunni family and have practised the traditional salat. I still do that, becoz I dont see any wrong in it, if I stick to only Quran recitation in it. Though I don't focus much on the number of rakats.
At the same time, I understand and believe that others who pray according to only Quranic regulations of reciting, bowing and prostrating are right in their prayers as well.And I perform wudu as said in these verses.
56 O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.Peace!
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The teachers in school/college teach, promote nothing of their own. They merely explain what is in the books and authentic sources, and add no information of their own.
I feel sorry for you if that is all you have been able to get out of your education. I would suggest going back in a few years when perhaps you will be able to get more out of it, or choose your classes/proffesors more carefully. I can't say I have had a teacher or proffessor that did not add a great deal to the text since my sophmore english teacher in HS. Either you REALLY got the crap end of the stick as far as teachers go or you are still quite young and have not grown enough to see the things that were really taught. Good luck to ya.
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peace
so virtualeye, you probably also believe that the sun prostrates to Allah (who is sitting on a throne) everyday and asks for His permition to set and one day Allah will not allow the sun to set and tell it to go back where it came from.
You also believe then that Muhammad was the first thing Allah ever created and this world was created for him to live on. You also believe that meteors are actually pieces of satan falling from the sky because He was punished by Allah for eavesdropping on the conversation between him and the angels.
You also worship stones (face towards the kaaba and kiss the stone in it and run between mountains). -
Hi sawtooth,
The teachers in school/college teach, promote nothing of their own. They merely explain what is in the books and authentic sources, and add no information of their own.
I feel sorry for you if that is all you have been able to get out of your education. I would suggest going back in a few years when perhaps you will be able to get more out of it, or choose your classes/proffesors more carefully. I can't say I have had a teacher or proffessor that did not add a great deal to the text since my sophmore english teacher in HS. Either you REALLY got the crap end of the stick as far as teachers go or you are still quite young and have not grown enough to see the things that were really taught. Good luck to ya.
U have clearly misunderstood me.
I have had good teachers as well and a good education too.
Here, I am talking in the context of hadeeth and Quran.
Teachers dont teach 'self created/invented stuff' in subjects like for eg,science, do they? And anyways, the teacher example is not really appropriate for Prophet Mohammed.I understand u r not into religion.
I'll to explain to u, what I mean here.
Hadith-are supposedly teachings and practices of Prophet Mohammed, who we muslims believe, is the messenger of God (to whom God conveyed His message 'The Quran'). The Hadeeth were collected and written down 100's of years after the prophet's death based on recollections of stories and narrations of their ancestors.
Quran- Message from God. Written down as it was conveyed and preserved ever since.God in Quran has some general ''do's'' and ''dont's''. For eg, Live righteously, Be just, Be humble, Be kind. etc and Man is asked to uphold these values and principles mentioned in Quran in his life. And Quran deals with all the core issues and values pertaining to humans.
Now, in hadeeth, U again find additional 'do's and dont's and some of them are quite absurd as well. They have instructions ranging from how to stand, how to walk, what to eat, how to brush, etc. , and many others based on what Prophet Mohammed did and said. (this is again based on recollection after 100's of years of heresays).
I dont believe growing a beard by a man makes him a better muslim or a better human being or takes him to heaven etc. Prophet Mohammed is supposed to have had a beard. But that doesnt make the beard growing holy, does it?
So, u see we do not need the additonal 'do's and dont's.
Also, God in Quran clearly prohibits the prophet from adding or changing anything from Quran or also preach anything on his own as from God.
And we are to follow God alone to be a muslim.I hope I was clear.
Peace!
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I would like to know about these evidences which are moving you away from our Quranic Faith.
I would like to know to bro if you manage to know please, but I thought this evolution thingy iis going for tens of years and yet they failed to provide a single conclusive evidence to support darwin big lie
peace
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Mohammad mission was not onlt to deliver the Quran, but to explain/make clear to us those things in which we differ
?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?
(64)
-> We can read above that the prophet mission was not just to deliver the Quran but to explain ? ? a few things that we may differ, a very strong argument against the hadth rejectors, you see it is very easy to use the Quran to qualify any hadith because we know that the prophet should deliver it then use it to guide humanity and explain to them a few things that we may differ. it is like saying the Quran verses again in different way for further explanation because the prophet was only talking by the Quran.
the bottom line that becaise we have the preserved Quran we can use it easy to Qualify the hadith, ie, THE QURAN QUALIFIES THE HADITH
if the Muslim Ummah apply that simple logic, about 75% of the hadiths should be burnt or thrown in the rubbish bin and the rest is upheld by muslims "all united" as mere teachings by the great prophet that we managed to get hold on and in no way comes near the Quran, a very simple solution indeed.
Peace
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Why do so many people STILL think that Darwin's theories are the most accepted definition of evolution? Yes, he broke a few bounderies and uncovered what has become the theories of evolution, but if you still think evolution means we come from apes, or other simplistic crap left over from Darwin's early work, you are in fact an idiot. There is no nice way to put it and I do apologize for that. Darwin was the pioneer. He was not around long enough to fully study his own work or be blessed by the mountains of technology and research that have come since. I think we need an updated, accurate explanation of evolution to use as the comonly accepted standard here.
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Hi Ahmed Bahgat,
?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?
Can u tell me who is 'thou' in the above verse?
Can u also tell me, who is 'they' in the above verse?And also tell me, If Hadith was essntial, to understand Quran, why did not Prophet Mohammed instruct his people to write down his instructions? Why was Quran written down immediately while hadeeth was not? Why was there a ban on such writing for 100's of years after his death?
And also, according to what u say, would that mean, Hadith are required to explain Quran, since Quran is not clear enough? Isnt this contradicting Quran, where in Allah says its has clear messages ?
Peace!
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Hi Ahmed Bahgat,
?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?
Can u tell me who is 'thou' in the above verse?
Can u also tell me, who is 'they' in the above verse?And also tell me, If Hadith was essntial, to understand Quran, why did not Prophet Mohammed instruct his people to write down his instructions? Why was Quran written down immediately while hadeeth was not? Why was there a ban on such writing for 100's of years after his death?
And also, according to what u say, would that mean, Hadith are required to explain Quran, since Quran is not clear enough? Isnt this contradicting Quran, where in Allah says its has clear messages ?
Peace!
Hi Peacefulmulsin
I will get back to you tomorrow as I was busy all day and just about to go to bed
good night
peace
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Hi Ahmed Bahgat,
Hi Peacefulmulsin
I will get back to you tomorrow as I was busy all day and just about to go to bed
good night
Peace! No problems. ) Take ur time.
And in those questions, here is another one,
who is they who differ and in what?Peace!
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Hi Ahmed Bahgat,
Giid morning sister
?And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.?
Can u tell me who is 'thou' in the above verse?
Prophet Mohammad
Can u also tell me, who is 'they' in the above verse?
all of us
And also tell me, If Hadith was essntial, to understand Quran, why did not Prophet Mohammed instruct his people to write down his instructions?
no sister the hadith is not essential to understand the Quran what the verse says is clearly that the prophet should "Yobian" to us what may be confusing in the Quran. this in effect should be verbal to the people who lived with him,
The prophet once entered on a group of the sahaba and they were documenting his sayings in a book, the prophet was shocked and asked them are you writing my saying in a book that may compete with the Quran, you should not ever do that?, so the sahaba wondered, what they do then, the prophet responded by it is ok to talk about him but it is not ok to write about him, so the sahaba collected what the wrote down and burnt it, this hadith is in the sunni cult hadith book,
now if the prophet prevented documenting his sayings in a book, this suggest to me that we should have verbally inherited what they said about the prophet explaining a few confusing bits in the Quran, this is impossible to be preserved accurately over hundreds of years in which people suppose to just transfer verbally what the prophet said about the confusing bits in the Quran, so I guess it is ok at a certain period after the prophet died to find then analyse what we have regarding the verses of the Quran,
what we collect i guess should be put on a small book as a mere reference if needed when we differ in a specific Quran verse meaning(s)
for some they may not any hadith because they managed to understand it without any help for others they sure need the explanation by someone and who will be more qualified than the man who received this verse from Allah?
I agree that the problem of authenticating if the prophet said or not will stay as no one can confirm that a dead man said whatever other than Allah, so the heart, mind and freewill will play a great deal in what the individuals accept
I myself hardly referred to the hadith to understand a few tough verses in the Quran, the toughness was not from the language as I'm fluent in it, rather it was the fact I just could know what the Quran is talking about in a few verses like the beginning of sura 66, I can understand what every Arabic word means, but I could not know the circumstances in why this have happened so I referred to the hadith and as I expected there was many explanation, what i did i accepted the most of explanation that will not the Arabic Quran verses "talking about this specific incident" in fault and the problem was resolved to me.
The corruption of the hadith is evident from the many explanation they claim the prophet said it, I'm sure he said one explanation only to whatever verse caused confusion, but because humans can not be trusted in transferring the word, I believe what the hadith writers did 200 years after the prophet of documented his sayings as it is logically silly to transfer it verbally between hundreds of humans without totally been manipulated as time goes by
Those hadith writers fatal mistake though was simply they failed to understand the Quran message in 1664 and the prophet message, they might even did not look at it at all and just resorted to ?Obey Allah and His prophet? verses hence they suggested whatever the prophet say must be obeyed, this silly claim can be demolished using the thousands of unnecessary hadiths that has nothing to do with any confusion in a Quran verse nor it has any thing to do with the whole Quran neither it has anything to do with Allah and faith they simply followed the devil without knowing.
Also the order of the prophet ?if he ever said it? that not to put his sayings in a book may be obeyed NOT by the true believers who can under the circumstances of the high possibility of human corruption who suppose to be verbally transferring the hadith explanation regarding a few verses that may cause confusion
If any human managed to understand the Quran without any need of people without knowledge that should be great the point is NO ONE will be able to do that as stated in the Quran
I was actually one of the supporters that the Quran is easy to understand, while for me it is to high degree, but not because I?m smarter than others or somthin, rather due to my luck of having a native Arabic tongue, yet when I read it first it was too tough, then quickly it became clearer and clearer as I gain knowledge on history and others. In fact sister I have to retreat my many statements that I said in the past about the ease of the Quran, because logically speaking the Quran is not easy to non Arabic speakers at all also to many Arabic speakers, both are part of all humanity that suppose to be the Quran audience, therefore I have to conclude that The Quran is not easy or at least it should not be stated as a general statement
This is obvious sister from the confusion you see from all Muslims educated or not, they all differ in understanding many verses hence the prophet should have explained to us what we differ in understanding the Quran what he said in the past was circumstantial to a few who could not understand a specific bit of a verse, the prophet even may not talked about it at things that caused confusion after his death, so the onus on us to use our hearts, minds, eyes and ears controlled by our freewill to analyse all these info and come to a conclusion on the possibility if the prophet said it or not, the common sense honesty and the free mind of all influences including the voices of devil is so important here,
The point is sister the Muslims 200 years after the prophet death inherited this problem as well, however their silly solution to document every single word they heard about things that are not religiously sensible and has nothing to do with the quran at all or any confusion in a specific verse, now we inherited this problem and I believe out intellect and experience in life make us qualified to put this great problem into bed with the mother of all solutions that should unite all Muslims under the Quran and one understanding to it
While the solution sound simple, it seems to me that the devil will work even harder to stop it from happening, because he caused it from the first place and his great work as we can see it now will be very hard to be taken of him unless we all believers unite against him, I hope it happens one day sister, and I hope Allah destined to me that I see it in my short life because it really hurts bad to see many Muslims who are following nothing but conjecture, like the sunni and their terrorists, the shite, the ahmadia, the Quran alone, etc etc, they all are divided and some kill the others and this alone exposes them because division is a contradictory to the religion of Islam , there is a lot for me to say sister but I will stop at this for the time being but I would be happy to continue this important discussion with and possibly me and you think of a solution, I already though of many but I would like to hear what solution you may think of not to believe in the hadith or something, consider it you are a consultant and I put this problem for you to solve, what can advice you can give me?
Why was Quran written down immediately while hadeeth was not?
because the hadith according to 1664 should be circumstantial to a specific confusion arose by a specific verse and the prophet prevented putting hin sayings in a book as stated by the hadith itself, now we can overwrite the prophet order under the circumstances of lies and fabrication that started to circulate about him straight after his death and continued to go bigger for the first 200 years of his life until the Ummah decided to document his sayings to solve the huge problem but their solution lacked experience with the weak human nature to submit to the devil, a new solution now is a must for the benefit of all Muslims united.
Why was there a ban on such writing for 100's of years after his death?
Because according to the hadith the prophet didn?t WANY ANY HUMAN BOOK TO COMPETE WITH THE QURAN, I can show you the hadith if you wish
And also, according to what u say, would that mean, Hadith are required to explain Quran, since Quran is not clear enough?
nop rather the humans require to educate themselves with all available info to really understand the Arabic Quran so we have to look at what we have and filter it using our eyes, ears, minds and hearts and all for the sake of Allah and His religion that suppose to be a blessing to humanity
Isnt this contradicting Quran, where in Allah says its has clear messages ?
not at all, and that is what I though wrong as well, I explained to you above that logically speaking the Quran can not be considered easy for any non Arabic speaker, WE CAN SEE THIS CLEARLY, yet not easy for the Arabic speakers and we can also see the zillions of different understandings between all who claim to believe in the Quran including myself, HOW THEN YOU CAN CONVINCE ME THAT IT IS SIMPLE?
Well I know what you will do, you will bring a few verses that suppose to be saying this, Sister I was blind not to understand these verses, so please bring them all on the table and I will convince you that there is no such message in the Quran, if the Quran is so easy why we can see all that confusion started 200 years after the death of the prophet and that confusion still going very strong between all of us?
I do believe that the Quran is skightky above average lever for an arabic speaker and furher above that for a non arabic speaker
Peace!
Peace be with you