What is the right translation of [2:144] ???
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also the verse said the same message to all the believers not just the prophet "Fa Waloo" would that mean all believers will some how be governors or ruling something? i don't know but its possibilty is very remote
No.
I think waloo in fa waloo can only mean "to turn".Because I think walla may mean "rule" (or "appoint as governor") in lanuwalliyannaka, and "turn" in fawaloo.
I will explain why in a next post insha allah.ok, please post your explanation, please I a;so need to know what is the objective of the message that the prophet will be appointed as a governor if he was already apponited as a prophet? also governor to whom exactly if he was sent Rahmatan to all humanity?
Governor of the qiblah = the (main) center of devotion for muslims, symbol of abraham's way = masjidalharam.
See .also the tense of Walia in "LeOwalianaka" is not releveant because it is an ORDER that is why it must have "Oo" but because Allah uses the plurer it becomes "No" in this case the root will be used and a stress "Shadda" on the second letter will be added
the root is
Wa La Ya
to make it an order is by adding the "No" and the Stress "Shadda" on the second letter in the root which is "La" it should become "No Wa LLa Ya", that is why i stated the tense is not important when it comes to "to verbly order someone", in fact it is called in the arabic grammer "Fiel Amr" ie. "Order Verb"
peace
OK, thanks, very clear...
Juste one question, for my curiosity.
There are 2 other verbs from the same root wala, and tawalla.
Is there imperative form the same as walla ?Thanks again
Peace -
Bro JM
as I stated the word has two menaings, "To turn" or "To rule" or "To Guard"
in the two verse you posted it is clearly the "To guard" meaning
i.e. DO NOT TAKE THEM AS PROTECTORS (Guardians)
br, the owrd has two meanings and there hnudreds of arabic words that have two menings possibly three menings
peace
Right, but when a word is said in a dictionary to have several meaning, it is good to check in the quran if these meanings are used (because a meaning of a word can be post-quranic).
That is what I have done. -
Have you read PRL, root Qaf-Ba-lam ?
Sorry I haven't because I'm a native Arabic speaker and I hardly refer to this flawed method of understanding Arabic, no offence to anyone but I agree that is one of the ways of understanding the meaning of an individual word outside a context. For me, I hardly refer to the root, most native Arabic speakers will understand most of the Arabic words within a context without referring to the root, actually i hardly did this in my life even with other Arabic books that have content for average humans. And I believe the Quran is a book for an average human. I dont need rocket science to understand the Quran.
In that case, why were you trying to prove something to me about the meaning of the word qibla with the word qubul, which is another word sharing the same root Qaf-Ba-Lam ?
Anyway, here is PRL about qibla
Qaf-Ba-Lam = to accept/admit/receive/agree, meet anyone, to face/encounter someone/something, advance/approach, correspond, counteract/compare/requite/compensate, the front part (1226), accept with approval, show favour.
qablu - before/formerly,
qubulun - the fore-part, face to face, before, plural of qabilum,
qibalun - power, side, part,
qiblah - towards, in the direction of, facing, alongside,
qiblatun - anything before, opposite, the point in the direction of which prayer is performed, the Ka'bah at Makkah, a place of worship,
qabulun - favourable reception, gracious acceptance,
qabilun - tribe, host, plural qabilatun,
qabailun - tribe,
aqbala - to come near, draw near, approach, turn towards, rush upon,
taqabbala - to accept,
mutaqabilun - opposite to, facing one another,
mustaqbilun - proceeding towards, heading towards.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/16_QAF.htm- You say " The quran qualifies the hadith". Could you quote the verse which prove that ?
Not really explicitly as such, but
Could you paste your explanations in a new thread into the hadith section of the board ?
The verse can easily be understood that it means WHEREVER YOU ARE on earth, ie. in a different town or a different country, this so easy for an average person to understand it this way , hence someone on a point on earth that is exactly opposite to the Kaaba can pray in two different directions that are 180 degrees apart,
Yes, but definitely the verses does not say "Wherever you are, while praying".
- Guide us (on to) As-Sirat-al-Mustaqima (The permanent and eternal Path)
Mustaqeem = Undeviating = Straight = Balanced = Even
I agree that the Al-Sirat Al-Mustaqim means the straight path but where you got permanent from?
Surely, those who have rejected the Reminder when it came to them; and it is an Honourable Scripture. No falsehood could enter it, presently or afterwards; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy. What is being said to you is the same that was said to the messengers before you.
Peace
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also the verse said the same message to all the believers not just the prophet "Fa Waloo" would that mean all believers will some how be governors or ruling something? i don't know but its possibilty is very remote
No.
I think waloo in fa waloo can only mean "to turn".and why you take one meaning to this word and another meaning to the same word in thre SAME verse?
Because I think walla may mean "rule" (or "appoint as governor") in lanuwalliyannaka, and "turn" in fawaloo.
I will explain why in a next post insha allah.ok, please post your explanation, please I a;so need to know what is the objective of the message that the prophet will be appointed as a governor if he was already apponited as a prophet? also governor to whom exactly if he was sent Rahmatan to all humanity?
Governor of the qiblah = the (main) center of devotion for muslims, symbol of abraham's way = masjidalharam.
Then Abraham should be the Governor, especially Mohammad was following him as well all of us follow Abraham, in addition Abraham was the one who built the Kaaba which is the main center of devotion for muslims, as well He was the one he chose the name Muslims for us, no one deserve to be a governor other than Abraham
The Quran told us that Mohammad is not a governor or any thing else but a mere human prophet like all the other prophets preceeded him including Abraham
"Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful. "
(144)
Sorry, I can't see that Mohammad was described as a governor, but my note is this, Jesus was described using the SAME EXACT WORDS DESCRIBING MOHAMMAD
"The Messiah, son of Mary, is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! "
(75)
See .
i'm sorry, I could not see any inclination that Mohammad was appointed as a governer
Juste one question, for my curiosity.
There are 2 other verbs from the same root wala, and tawalla.
Is there imperative form the same as walla ?Thanks again
Peace"To turn" = Wala or Walla = Root and Past Tense, some may put the double L in the english clone to express the shadda on the L in the arabic word,
For the present tense we need to add a Ya in front for males and a Ta for females
Towali or Towalli ( for females)
Yowali or Yowalli ( for males )
"to inform any one that you know they are doing this action" we need a Ta in front for males and females,
Towali or Towalli
"to inform any one that you will make him or others to do this action" we need a Oo in front
Oowalianaka or Oowallianaka (males)
Oowalianaki or Oowallianaki (females)
for both in a group
Oowalianako or Oowallianako
To order someone (single ) male or female
Wali or Walli
to
To order a group males or females
Waloo or Walloo
peace
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peace,
Are you sure it is the imperfect active ?
I don't recognise this tense here.I quoted what CofQ and DofQ (p621) state, both say it is in the imperfect active.
What do you (and Ahmed) think of the usage of the verb walla in ?
In 609 "tawallawhum" is likened to "tabarroohum/pious/kind/gentle" (Ba-Ra-Ra) & "tuqsitoo/equitable/just/righteous" (Qaf-Siin-Tay) in 608. This should help in translation.
I'm not sure about protector/supporter for 6129.
wala vb. (I) -
impf. act. 9123
Could you check ?
I do not see it.yaloonakum mina alkuffari
Wakas
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also the verse said the same message to all the believers not just the prophet "Fa Waloo" would that mean all believers will some how be governors or ruling something? i don't know but its possibilty is very remote
No.
I think waloo in fa waloo can only mean "to turn".and why you take one meaning to this word and another meaning to the same word in thre SAME verse?
Why not ???
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them cast (walyadribna) their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not show-off their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their children that come after them, or those who are still their dependants, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike (yadribna) with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
=> 1 verse, 1 verb (daraba), 2 meanings ("to cast" ans "to strike")
Because I think walla may mean "rule" (or "appoint as governor") in lanuwalliyannaka, and "turn" in fawaloo.
I will explain why in a next post insha allah.ok, please post your explanation, please I a;so need to know what is the objective of the message that the prophet will be appointed as a governor if he was already apponited as a prophet? also governor to whom exactly if he was sent Rahmatan to all humanity?
It will come in a few days insha allah.
Governor of the qiblah = the (main) center of devotion for muslims, symbol of abraham's way = masjidalharam.
Then Abraham should be the Governor, especially Mohammad was following him as well all of us follow Abraham, in addition Abraham was the one who built the Kaaba which is the main center of devotion for muslims, as well He was the one he chose the name Muslims for us, no one deserve to be a governor other than Abraham
The Quran told us that Mohammad is not a governor or any thing else but a mere human prophet like all the other prophets preceeded him including Abraham
Sorry, I can't see that Mohammad was described as a governor, but my note is this, Jesus was described using the SAME EXACT WORDS DESCRIBING MOHAMMAD
See .
i'm sorry, I could not see any inclination that Mohammad was appointed as a governer
It was not for those who have set up partners to maintain Gods temples while they bear witness over their own rejection. For these, their works have fallen, and in the Fire they will abide.
Rather, the temples of God are maintained by he who believes in God and the Last Day, and he holds the contact-method, and he contributes towards betterment, and he does not fear except God. It is these that will be of the guided ones.And why should God not punish them when they are turning others away from the Restricted Temple, and they were never its protectors! Its protectors are the righteous; but most of them do not know.
These verses show that the masjidalharam has to be guarded/protected/governed by Muhammad and the the believers.
Juste one question, for my curiosity.
There are 2 other verbs from the same root wala, and tawalla.
Is there imperative form the same as walla ?Thanks again
Peace"To turn" = Wala or Walla = Root and Past Tense, some may put the double L in the english clone to express the shadda on the L in the arabic word,
For the present tense we need to add a Ya in front for males and a Ta for females
Towali or Towalli ( for females)
Yowali or Yowalli ( for males )
"to inform any one that you know they are doing this action" we need a Ta in front for males and females,
Towali or Towalli
So, you are stating that wala, walla, and tawalla are only one verb, in different tenses. Am I right ?
But I have read that a arabic verb can have several forms
FORM 1 it is the base form made up of the three root leters
FORM 2 It is derived from the FORM 1 by doubling the second root letter
FORM 5 It is derived from the FORM 2 by adding or prefixing the "te" in front of the first root letter.
(source http//www.multimediaquran.com/quran/arabic/index.htm)So, can we not say that wala is the form 1, walla is the form 2, and tawalla the form 5 ?
According to PRL, yatawallawna in is from the verb tawalla in the impefect tense.
543 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away yatawallawna. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
Do you disagree ?
"to inform any one that you will make him or others to do this action" we need a Oo in front
Oowalianaka or Oowallianaka (males)
Oowalianaki or Oowallianaki (females)
for both in a group
Oowalianako or Oowallianako
To order someone (single ) male or female
Wali or Walli
to
To order a group males or females
Waloo or Walloo
Peace
Very clear.
Many thanks again for your patience.Peace
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Are you sure it is the imperfect active ?
I don't recognise this tense here.I quoted what CofQ and DofQ (p621) state, both say it is in the imperfect active.
OK.
But Ahmed has convincingly argued that it ( walliya in falanuwalliyannaka) was the imperative.
Can you debate with him on this point ?What do you (and Ahmed) think of the usage of the verb walla in ?
In 609 "tawallawhum" is likened to "tabarroohum/pious/kind/gentle" (Ba-Ra-Ra) & "tuqsitoo/equitable/just/righteous" (Qaf-Siin-Tay) in 608. This should help in translation.
I'm not sure about protector/supporter for 6129.
You argument about seems sound to me.
About the meaning walla = "to set as protector/governor" ; is it not confirmed by Lane ?
Cf http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000314.pdf, part 2wala vb. (I) -
impf. act. 9123
Could you check ?
I do not see it.yaloonakum mina alkuffari
Wakas
OK, thanks.
Peace
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and why you take one meaning to this word and another meaning to the same word in thre SAME verse?
Why not ???
Ok mate, you win but at least tell us with compelling reasons why it has to be done.
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them cast (walyadribna) their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not show-off their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their children that come after them, or those who are still their dependants, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike (yadribna) with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
=> 1 verse, 1 verb (daraba), 2 meanings ("to cast" ans "to strike")
sure and as I stated before you win the argument in why not, in here the context clearly show us that there is two different actions while on the other verse it was the same action to the prophet and the believers
It will come in a few days insha allah.
Ok, take your time
It was not for those who have set up partners to maintain God?s temples while they bear witness over their own rejection. For these, their works have fallen, and in the Fire they will abide.
Rather, the temples of God are maintained by he who believes in God and the Last Day, and he holds the contact-method, and he contributes towards betterment, and he does not fear except God. It is these that will be of the guided ones.And why should God not punish them when they are turning others away from the Restricted Temple, and they were never its protectors! Its protectors are the righteous; but most of them do not know.
These verses show that the masjidalharam has to be guarded/protected/governed by Muhammad and the the believers.
Sorry bro, verse 917-19 starts by stating this sacred duty to all Masajid not AlmasjidAlharam alone, it just happen that AlmasjidAlharam is another masjid and our duty to protect and serve all of the Masajid
BTW "Yoammer" does not mean any of these guard/protect/govern , it simply means to develope, or to enhance, or to serve, but never guard/protect/govern
834 obviously says that all of the believers are protectors not just Mohammad
So, you are stating that wala, walla, and tawalla are only one verb, in different tenses. Am I right ?
wala = past tense and also = the root
walla = past tense with a shada on second letter <> the root
tawalla = present tense
But I have read that a arabic verb can have several forms
FORM 1 it is the base form made up of the three root letersyes and most likely = past tense about 99%
FORM 2 It is derived from the FORM 1 by doubling the second root letter
NEVER by letters, only by Tashkil "ie pronounciation only" the letters stay the same and a Shadda will be added on top of the second letter, not commonly used, its use is only when you refer an action by someone, it can't be about the self, and still means past tense it is just a stress in the action, nothing more and the tense stays the same
FORM 3 It is derived from the FORM 2 by adding or prefixing the "te" in front of the first root letter.
(source http//www.multimediaquran.com/quran/arabic/index.htm)It will just make it a present tense that's all
So, can we not say that wala is the form 1, walla is the form 2,
yes and both are past tense
and tawalla the form 5 ?
in this case it has to be Tawalli and it should be for a female use unless it was told to someone informing him/her directly that they doing this action
According to PRL, yatawallawna in is from the verb tawalla in the impefect tense.
sorry, it has to be from the root "Wa La Ya" the ta in front should not be there because it is only to inform who is talking about the action and if the talk was direct to a somone on perosn or someone on absence or a female saying the action about herself, in addition the double LL is only tashkil and not a physical and second L
543 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away yatawallawna. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
Do you disagree ?
not sure disagree on what?, yatawallawna clearly means "Turn Away" as understood from the Arabic verse, so i agree on the above translation
Peace be with you
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peace,
But Ahmed has convincingly argued that it ( walliya in falanuwalliyannaka) was the imperative.
Can you debate with him on this point ?Can you explain what difference it would make? It seems imperfect as it is an action in the process of being done, its not like the receiver did it there and then, hence translations using "shall" before it.
About the meaning walla = "to set as protector/governor" ; is it not confirmed by Lane ?
Cf http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000314.pdf, part 2Perhaps if it was the only meaning given, but it isn't. al-quran is the primary determinant of word-meanings.
Also, the meaning of "turn" is used for the surounding similar words, which also reduces the governor understanding. Not saying its impossible, but the case presented so far isn't great.
Wakas
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peace,
But Ahmed has convincingly argued that it ( walliya in falanuwalliyannaka) was the imperative.
Can you debate with him on this point ?Can you explain what difference it would make? It seems imperfect as it is an action in the process of being done, its not like the receiver did it there and then, hence translations using "shall" before it.
In PRL, there is a difference between imperfect and imperative, and you have said it was in the imperfect.
falanuwalliyannaka = walli is in the impf. act.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=68605#68605But if it makes no difference to you, all right !
It was not for those who have set up partners to maintain Gods temples while they bear witness over their own rejection. For these, their works have fallen, and in the Fire they will abide.
Rather, the temples of God are maintained by he who believes in God and the Last Day, and he holds the contact-method, and he contributes towards betterment, and he does not fear except God. It is these that will be of the guided ones.And why should God not punish them when they are turning others away from the Restricted Temple, and they were never its protectors! Its protectors are the righteous; but most of them do not know.
These verses show that the masjidalharam has to be guarded/protected/governed by Muhammad and the the believers.
Sorry bro, verse 917-19 starts by stating this sacred duty to all Masajid not AlmasjidAlharam alone, it just happen that AlmasjidAlharam is another masjid and our duty to protect and serve all of the Masajid
BTW "Yoammer" does not mean any of these guard/protect/govern , it simply means to develope, or to enhance, or to serve, but never guard/protect/govern
Who can develop/enhance/serve AlmasjidAlharam but their guardians ?
834 obviously says that all of the believers are protectors not just Mohammad
True, but who are the believers obeying to ?
O you who believe, obey God, and obey the messenger
So, you are stating that wala, walla, and tawalla are only one verb, in different tenses. Am I right ?
wala = past tense and also = the root
walla = past tense with a shada on second letter <> the root
tawalla = present tense
But I have read that a arabic verb can have several forms
FORM 1 it is the base form made up of the three root letersyes and most likely = past tense about 99%
FORM 2 It is derived from the FORM 1 by doubling the second root letter
NEVER by letters, only by Tashkil "ie pronounciation only" the letters stay the same and a Shadda will be added on top of the second letter, not commonly used, its use is only when you refer an action by someone, it can't be about the self, and still means past tense it is just a stress in the action, nothing more and the tense stays the same
FORM 3 It is derived from the FORM 2 by adding or prefixing the "te" in front of the first root letter.
(source http//www.multimediaquran.com/quran/arabic/index.htm)It will just make it a present tense that's all
So, can we not say that wala is the form 1, walla is the form 2,
yes and both are past tense
and tawalla the form 5 ?
in this case it has to be Tawalli and it should be for a female use unless it was told to someone informing him/her directly that they doing this action
According to PRL, yatawallawna in is from the verb tawalla in the impefect tense.
sorry, it has to be from the root "Wa La Ya" the ta in front should not be there because it is only to inform who is talking about the action and if the talk was direct to a somone on perosn or someone on absence or a female saying the action about herself, in addition the double LL is only tashkil and not a physical and second L
543 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away yatawallawna. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
Peace be with you
So, you don't agree with Wakas and PRL.
(see http//www.studyquran.co.uk/25_WAW.htm, root Waw-Lam-Ya)Could you have a debate with him, so that we can know the truth ?
Many thanks,
Peace
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Hello JM
Who can develop/enhance/serve AlmasjidAlharam but their guardians ?
The true belivers
True, but who are the believers obeying to ?
All the prophets
Regarding the link posted by Wakas, as I stated, I really didn't read it, if Wakas feels he has something to discuss with me regarding this issue he is welcome to take the stand and present it in a simple and logical manner with some supporting verses from the Quran and if I have anything reasonable to say I will respond to it inshaallah, our objective should the truth as you stated brother
Peace
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peace,
JM, I asked YOU what difference it made to the meaning of the sign, if any. You still have not answered.
Secondly, PRL consists of sources. It is not my own work. If you wish to debate with the sources of grammar, contact author of DofQ (Abdul Mannan Omar) islamusa.org or CofQ author (Professor Hanna E Kassis) kassis(at)unixg.ubc.ca / hek(at)interchange.ubc.ca
Also, I would like to point out, the grammar aspect of PRL will likely be the last part to be completed fully. After root occurrences (now done) and meanings (being done).
Wakas
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peace,
JM, I asked YOU what difference it made to the meaning of the sign, if any. You still have not answered.
What difference in the meaning of the sign ?
I don't know.
I cannot know it, because I don't know what would be the meaning of the sign if walliya in falanuwalliyannaka would be seen as imperfect active instead of imperative.Secondly, PRL consists of sources. It is not my own work. If you wish to debate with the sources of grammar, contact author of DofQ (Abdul Mannan Omar) islamusa.org or CofQ author (Professor Hanna E Kassis) kassis(at)unixg.ubc.ca / hek(at)interchange.ubc.ca
I knew it.
But it is a bit confusing to me that the explanations of Ahmed are not the same as the conclusions of these authors.Also, I would like to point out, the grammar aspect of PRL will likely be the last part to be completed fully. After root occurrences (now done) and meanings (being done).
WakasThat's good news !
StudyQuran is a very good tool, and I enjoy it a lot.
Many thanks for this great work.Peace
