The principles of faith in the Quran
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Hi Everyone,
Dear AhmedBahgat,
I appreciate your comments. However, i cannot verify them or the translation i've used. Thus, I went with the one I found most consistent with the quran.
But brother, even if it means argue. I don't see how the meaning changes. In order to believe, everyone makes an argument to themselves, some conciously, some sub-conciously. If we are prohibited from making an argument based something we lack knowledge of, then we are indirectly prohibited from believing in something we lack knowledge of.
That's my interpretation.
I'd appreciate if those at free-minds who translated the quran, could make a comment as to why they translated it
1737 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
Contradictory to AhmedBahgat?
Dear Saladin,
Brother, I cannot accept your interpretation. Following the quran blindly is not what we're ment to do. If we do, then what is the difference between us and others who blindly believe in their holy sources? We're following two different things, but we're still blind!
No, I cannot. Look at principle 6, or verse 728. if we follow the quran blindly, we are doomed to make the same mistake.
Thanks for your comments -)
Nadeem.
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Peace mquran
I believe i did a small mistake regarding the arabic grammar, i checked in a small book that I have and it is confirmed a mistake.
any verb that ends with a "Ya " when used with "La" i.e. "Do Not", that Ya should be removed like removing the waw in front of the verb.
ie. "Qa Fa Ya "should be "La Ta Qi Fa" hence there will be no difference in the letters when compared to the other "La Ta Qi Fa", sorry but the meaning I stated stay the same because I also checked with many tafsirs and most agreed on the meaning I stated, there was other suggestions though that are totally different to what the majority suggested as well to what you are suggesting, i went with the majority here bro
Peace
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Dear AhmedBahgat,
I appreciate your comments. However, i cannot verify them or the translation i've used. Thus, I went with the one I found most consistent with the quran.
But brother, even if it means argue. I don't see how the meaning changes. In order to believe, everyone makes an argument to themselves, some conciously, some sub-conciously. If we are prohibited from making an argument based something we lack knowledge of, then we are indirectly prohibited from believing in something we lack knowledge of.
That's my interpretation.
I'd appreciate if those at free-minds who translated the quran, could make a comment as to why they translated it
1737 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
Contradictory to AhmedBahgat?
Thank you bro, i can't see major difference other than the bit of you have to prove it yourself because it does not exist at all and is a clear cut addon to the meaning, possibly to add weight to the proposed understaning preceeding it which is you don't follow what you lack knowledge in.
the message of not following what we lack knowledge "alone" is lacking merit because we might be following good things that we lack knowledge in, hence they they added a bit of merit to it which is to prove it yourself first, now I consider this misleading because the verse never said you should prove it first
If you look at the verses 1731-35 preceeding 1736 you should notice that all are warning from bad deeds
now following someone without knowledge MAY NOT BE A BAD DEED
but arguing about something while lacking knowledge IS INDEED A BAD DEED
peace be with you
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Brother, I cannot accept your interpretation. Following the quran blindly is not what we're ment to do. If we do, then what is the difference between us and others who blindly believe in their holy sources? We're following two different things, but we're still blind!
No, I cannot. Look at principle 6, or verse 728. if we follow the quran blindly, we are doomed to make the same mistake.
salam.
i didnt say that we follow blindly . i said , once we reach a conclusion , we must follow it . see that verse ? it says even if Allah had commanded them to kill themselves , or leave their land , it would be for their own good . it might sound non-sense or evil to some , but it isnt . -
Hi AhmadBahgat,
Then you would translate the ayat as follows?
You shall not argue without knowledge. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Right?
now following someone without knowledge MAY NOT BE A BAD DEED
Agreed, but still it's against the quran. Are we not supposed to be certain of what we follow?
Nadeem
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Hi AhmadBahgat,
Then you would translate the ayat as follows?
You shall not argue without knowledge. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Right?
Perfect bro, thanks
now following someone without knowledge MAY NOT BE A BAD DEED
Agreed, but still it's against the quran. Are we not supposed to be certain of what we follow?
Nadeem
not really because it will require that all people will be average at least, the point is we are all different, for those under average, they will need to follow trused family members and friends because they just can't understand it on their own, I believe Allah will consider this into account becasue He is the one Who gives anyone knowledge from the first place
it is a bit complicated issue and the best answer is Allah knows best
peace be with you
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Also Nadeem, you can consider the story of Moses and his companion when Moses was asked to follow him WITHOUT ASKING ANY QUESTION as a perfect example of following without knowledge
Peace bro
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Hi bro AhmadBahgat -)
I understand what you mean. However, when a person can be held responsible for his actions. He should acquire knowledge before he acts.
In the case of moses, he only observed but never followed. Do you see the difference?
Nadeem.
Yes I see what you mean and you are right, it was an order to him NOT to ask, so my perfect example failed really bad, thanks mate lol
But here is a good one for you bro, we follow Mohammad because we believed in the unseen, did we really manged to prove that Mohammad existed and delivered the Quran unchanged?, not sure about that, in fact we were only told to obey Mohammad as much as we were told to obey Allah
but as I stated bro it is a good advice to prove all things first, how the individual will achieve that?, i don't know, but I know the individual will surely differ in achieving this some even will careless to prove anything they just take it for granted
also I stated far earlier that this teaching is in the Bible and me as a muslim believe in the uncorupptyed bible passages exactly as I believe in the whole Quran verses, that is what Allah told us in the Quran many times. I will try to find that passage mate.
Peace bro
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peace,
When I had a look at 1736, I thought the following was most accurate
And do not follow what you have no knowledge of. Truly, the hearing, the sight and the heart - all will be questioned of this.
If anyone feels this is incorrect, please clarify as to where & why. How does the word "argue" fit into it?
Wakas
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Hello Wakas
Your translation can not be accepted bro for the following reasons
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The context of your translation will be missing a vital piece of information that will render the sentence ?Not complete?, this information is simply WHAT WE SHOULD NOT FOLLOW EXACTLY?, because as I stated earlier lacking the knowledge does not warrant not to follow others and we need to know what we should not follow for sure?
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In the Arabic language ?Qa Fa Ya? is hardly used to express following, in fact as far as I believe it was only used 3 times in the Quran to express that Allah did an action following another action and was never expressed as a human action, surely what is known in the Arabic language and the Quran is when you warn someone from following something you use the following word ? ? or if you say it to a group it will become ? ?, and means 100% ?Do not follow?, the Quran has about 17 examples, in every single instance we were informed with what we should not follow and even when we ordered to follow something we were informed of what to follow, make sense to you bro?
Here is a few examples and please note that what we should not follow was stated in the verses and I will highlighted in blue as the common sense says we should state what should not be followed if you are going to warn an individual or a group of not following something, just don?t follow ?alone? does not make a complete sense neither constitute a complete sentence
?O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, Lawful and good; and do not follow the footsteps of the evil one, for he is to you an avowed enemy.?
(16
?O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.?
(135)
?To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;?
(4
?Say "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.?
(77)
?Say 'Bring forward your witnesses to prove that Allah did forbid so and so.' If they bring such witnesses, be not thou amongst them Nor follow thou the vain desires of such as treat our signs as falsehoods, and such as believe not in the Hereafter for they hold others as equal with their Guardian-Lord.?
(150)
?Follow (O men!) the revelation given unto you from your Lord, and follow not, as friends or protectors, other than Him. Little it is ye remember of admonition.?
(3)
-> Can you see mate in 73 that it has both an order to follow and another order ?Not to follow? in both cases we were informed with what we should follow and what we should not. another example of both follow and not to follow in one verse is shown below
?Then We put thee on the (right) Way of Religion so follow thou that (Way), and follow not the desires of those who know not.?
(1
Based on the above I can conclude to myself that ?La Ta Qi Fa? in 1736 DO NOT MEAN ?Not to follow?, RATHER ?Not to argue?, because the verse failed to tell us what we should not follow and because the Quran verses never fail, it has to be ?Not to argue? and surely its metaphor use of standing up to express arguing is very common indeed in the Arabic world.
Peace be with you
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Ahmed, sorry but I have to keep it short. While I understand your formulation for disagreeing of the roots of 'wa qaf ya' and 'qaf fa ya', the mu'jam al-muhfaras concordance thinks its the same root, as does JIMAS translation, Mohar Ali. Are you sure they're not the same root?
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HI AhmedBahgat,
This is how Yusuf Ali translates the verse
1736 And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).Hi AhmadBahgat,
Then you would translate the ayat as follows?
You shall not argue without knowledge. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Right?Perfect bro, thanks
In your translation, u have 'argue' . Is there an arabic word meaning 'argue' present in that particular verse?
And can u please translate the verse in english word to word?Wala taqfu
ma laysa
laka bihi
AAilmun
inna
alssamAAa
waalbasara
waalfuada
kullu
olaika
kana
AAanhu
masoolanPeace!
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HI AhmedBahgat,
Hello mate
i was just about to go to bed after a long comment that took me 3 days to put together but the problem is I can't sleep while a question is asked bt me or by any mate directed to me as my head keeps thinking hence it will take me hours to sleep, so I'd rather get done with it before I go to bed lol
This is how Yusuf Ali translates the verse
1736 And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).sorry mate, YA does horrible mistakes, i got him red handed many times while I'm still considered a non english speaker well "like him I guess" but my english learning is dodgy for sure and self taught
his translation as "Do not persue" is 100% wrong because it discourage us from gaining knowledge, or at least it will make us fear to gain knowledge because if we try to do that, what our eyes see, our ears hear and our brains conclude can be held against us, THIS IS A VERY NEGATIVE MESSAGE INDEED AND CONTRADICT THE QURAN IN OTHER LOCATION WHICH ENCOURAGED GAINING KNOWLEDGE
Hi AhmadBahgat,
Then you would translate the ayat as follows?
You shall not argue without knowledge. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Right?Perfect bro, thanks
In your translation, u have 'argue' . Is there an arabic word meaning 'argue' present in that particular verse?
no there is not, but this is a common metaphor in the arabic world that represent arguing, I explained this before to Nadeem, this how the verse sounded to me BEFORE I READ THE TAFSIR BY 4 MAJOR ONES AND SURE THE MAJORITY WAS THE SAME, SO I FELT HAPPY AND CONFIDENT TO TAKE THAT MEANING
And can u please translate the verse in english word to word?
Wala taqfu ( DO NOT STAND UP)
ma laysa ( Do Not )
laka bihi ( Possess)
AAilmun ( Knowledge )
inna ( as )
alssamAAa ( The Hearing )
waalbasara ( and The Vision )
waalfuada ( and The Heart )
kullu ( All )
olaika ( Of them )
kana ( Are )
AAanhu ( About them )
masoolan (Questioned )Not sure how you can put it together but even word for word you will see that argue without having knowledge makes more sense for sure and the majority of solid arabic speakers will agree on that because it is kown whe you argue it is like you stand up, even lawyers do the same at courts when they object
peace be with you and good night
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Hi AhmedBhahgat,
HI AhmedBahgat,
Hello mate
i was just about to go to bed after a long comment that took me 3 days to put together but the problem is I can't sleep while a question is asked bt me or by any mate directed to me as my head keeps thinking hence it will take me hours to sleep, so I'd rather get done with it before I go to bed lolI thank you for your instant reply. ) But please do take ur time, and reply as u find convenient, the next time. No hurry.
I appreciate your kindness.This is how Yusuf Ali translates the verse
1736 And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).sorry mate, YA does horrible mistakes, i got him red handed many times while I'm still considered a non english speaker well "like him I guess" but my english learning is dodgy for sure and self taught
his translation as "Do not persue" is 100% wrong because it discourage us from gaining knowledge, or at least it will make us fear to gain knowledge because if we try to do that, what our eyes see, our ears hear and our brains conclude can be held against us, THIS IS A VERY NEGATIVE MESSAGE INDEED AND CONTRADICT THE QURAN IN OTHER LOCATION WHICH ENCOURAGED GAINING KNOWLEDGE
I think, U might have misunderstood what he means. 'Pursue' would mean follow. So, the verse according to Yusuf Ali's translation would mean, if put in an informal way '' do not follow something blindly that you have no knowledge of. whatever u believe and follow, u r responsible for and answerable for, on the day of judgement, for Allah will take into account all that u have heard, saw, all the information that u came across,...and from which u decided to choose what to believe and why(which is in one's heart)''. We wont be responsible for what we heard or what we saw. But we would be held responsible for what we did with the information(that we heard/saw etc). Say, U see a bad thing, and U think and come to a decission that U wont follow that coz its bad, this goes in Ur favour. and the vice versa. And if U see a good deed, and U think and decide to follow it, this again goes in ur favour. So, in that sense, he means to say whatever we see/hear etc , we are to consider and think and decide before following it, in our actions or even in our thoughts.
So, Yusuf Ali doesnt go on to say we should not gain knowledge. Let me try explaining with an example.
Say, for eg, people who lived before Quran was revealed, would not be judged by it, as they had no knowledege of the Quran. But people to whom, it was directly revealed would definitely be questioned, as to why they refused to believe when they came across the truth.I hope I have been clear with my explanation.
Then you would translate the ayat as follows?
You shall not argue without knowledge. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Right?Perfect bro, thanks
In your translation, u have 'argue' . Is there an arabic word meaning 'argue' present in that particular verse?
no there is not, but this is a common metaphor in the arabic world that represent arguing, I explained this before to Nadeem, this how the verse sounded to me BEFORE I READ THE TAFSIR BY 4 MAJOR ONES AND SURE THE MAJORITY WAS THE SAME, SO I FELT HAPPY AND CONFIDENT TO TAKE THAT MEANING
I dont understand how 'argue' can be metaphor.
I mean, its quite a strong word to consider equivalent of 'stand up'.And can u please translate the verse in english word to word?
Wala taqfu ( DO NOT STAND UP)
ma laysa ( Do Not )
laka bihi ( Possess)
AAilmun ( Knowledge )
inna ( as )
alssamAAa ( The Hearing )
waalbasara ( and The Vision )
waalfuada ( and The Heart )
kullu ( All )
olaika ( Of them )
kana ( Are )
AAanhu ( About them )
masoolan (Questioned )Not sure how you can put it together but even word for word you will see that argue without having knowledge makes more sense for sure and the majority of solid arabic speakers will agree on that because it is kown whe you argue it is like you stand up, even lawyers do the same at courts when they object
peace be with you and good night
Thank you for the word to word translation.
From which, I feel it means more like, ''Do not stand up to speak of, what u have no knowledge of, for ur hearing, vision, and ur heart(what u feel therein) are all known to Allah, and according to which u would be questioned''Would u say my undertsanding of the meaning of that verse is wrong?
And thanks again, for ur reply.
Peace!
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peace,
The following is the word for word translation that I have
Wala - and not
taqfu - follow
ma - what
laysa - not
laka - you have
bihi - of which
AAilmun - knowledge~ and do not follow what you have no knowledge of
It does tell us what not to follow whatever you have no knowledge of, thus directly implying to follow what you have knowledge of. This leads to seeking knowledge, not impeding it.
The root is, according to DofQ & CofQ Qaf-Fa-Way/Ya
To me, it doesn't matter if another word has been used to mean "follow". I do not agree that for one word in al-quran there is a unique definition and no other word can mean this.
Wakas
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I thank you for your instant reply. But please do take ur time, and reply as u find convenient, the next time. No hurry.
I appreciate your kindness.No worries, I just waked up now, lol
I think, U might have misunderstood what he means. 'Pursue' would mean follow. So, the verse according to Yusuf Ali's translation would mean, if put in an informal way '' do not follow something blindly that you have no knowledge of. whatever u believe and follow, u r responsible for and answerable for, on the day of judgement, for Allah will take into account all that u have heard, saw, all the information that u came across,...and from which u decided to choose what to believe and why(which is in one's heart)''. We wont be responsible for what we heard or what we saw. But we would be held responsible for what we did with the information(that we heard/saw etc). Say, U see a bad thing, and U think and come to a decission that U wont follow that coz its bad, this goes in Ur favour. and the vice versa. And if U see a good deed, and U think and decide to follow it, this again goes in ur favour. So, in that sense, he means to say whatever we see/hear etc , we are to consider and think and decide before following it, in our actions or even in our thoughts.
So, Yusuf Ali doesnt go on to say we should not gain knowledge. Let me try explaining with an example.
Say, for eg, people who lived before Quran was revealed, would not be judged by it, as they had no knowledege of the Quran. But people to whom, it was directly revealed would definitely be questioned, as to why they refused to believe when they came across the truth.I hope I have been clear with my explanation.
Yes you have been , but I do understand the many ways of translations, my point is Y A was never a native arabic speaker hence he may fail to translate many tough arabic words, in fact he even failed to translate some common arabic words, you see mate in my way to understand the Quran I went through all the people who had a say regarding whatever verse, in the case of 1736 the majority reached the same understanding as I did, hence I believe hard in that understanding but I'm open to consider another understanding as long as it does not conflict with another area in the Quran
Also persue means to chase, but if I consider it to follow then the translation should be
You shall not follow things which you lack knowledge in. The hearing, the vision , and the mind, are things that you will be questioned about them.
I may accept the above because we need to know what we should not follow and the above tells us NOT to follow any information that we lack knowledge in
Thank you for the word to word translation.
From which, I feel it means more like, ''Do not stand up to speak of, what u have no knowledge of, for ur hearing, vision, and ur heart(what u feel therein) are all known to Allah, and according to which u would be questioned''Would u say my undertsanding of the meaning of that verse is wrong?
And thanks again, for ur reply.
Peace!
Yes word for word it should mean do not stand up, the arabs never uses "Qa Fa Ya" to express following any thing, they use the word "Ya Ta Beh" I shown above and the Quran also use it over 17 times to inform us what we follow and what we should not follow, why in this verse ALONE we were told NOT TO FOLLOW SOMETING using a word that no way the arabs use it to express following, the word "Qa Fa Ya" was only used by Allah to refer to Himself that He causes generations/prophets to follow each other as in time line, not as in guidance
you see "Qa Fa Ya" was in all three locations meant "Make someting to follow" it never meant "to follow"
That is why I have to go with the other understanding because it is much clearer and that is what the Quran says about itself, I don't know why some humans prefer to go against the odds, but I guess it is the freewill and possibly other external factors that infleunce their understanding, I'm included as well to be someone who was influenced, but you have to consider that one of the influences that may affected me was the arabic langauge, hence it is the closest influence you can get to the arabic Quran, and because I know what most arabic scholars said about this verse in addition to the arabic sound of the sentence, I made up my will to go with this understanding as it is the least one against the odds, I'm a practical sort of guy and this may also be an influence on the way I understand and accept things
Peace be with you
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Hi all,
I suppose the confusion is becoz of the word 'taqfu' ?
What are the dictionary meanings of this word? 'follow' or 'stand up' or both?
Peace!
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Hello
I'm preparing my last comment regarding this subject, as I'm not going to look like my ego is controlling me as I know it does not and when compelling evidences is provided I have no problem to concede but all the supporters for this wrong understanding failed to provide a conclusive evidence and all they did was refering to another 3 verses where a look alike word is used, but it seems most if not all have a problem regarding the ego department.
well, I only speak by the Quran and I'm qualified to do it due to my fluency in arabic, so I will let the Quran talk for the final time regarding this matter and I will show you all that the verses where is says "Qa Fa Ya", IT MEANS CAUSED SOMETHING TO FOLLOW AS IN TIME LINE NOT IN GUIDANCE
CAUSED is very important word in the meaning and it seems those supporters for that wrong understanindg intentionally drop it when the try to ARGUE their understanding
the truth is "Qa FFa Ya" NEVER MEANS "TO FOLLOW" BUT "TO CAUSE SOMETHING TO FOLLOW", please note the double "FF" this is how it suppose to be when read "stressing the Fa"
c u later today
peace
