Every kind of similitude....
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Even though we may not witness supernatural miracles in our own lifetimes, how about the "miracle" of how the physical universe(s) in which we live came into existence? That something came from nothing at one point is in itself a supernatural miracle, is it not? The existence of the very laws we wish to see broken are miracles in their own right.
I agree. Those are the real miracles that most people fail to see.
But i don't think that at one point there was 'nothing.'And i will definately check that book out. sounds good.
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Peace Nazz,
Even though we may not witness supernatural miracles in our own lifetimes, how about the "miracle" of how the physical universe(s) in which we live came into existence?
Exactly bro. And there are miracles all around us.
~Stem cells are miraculous in their own right - identical, yet one becomes a heart cell and it's neighbor a fingernail cell.
~Bacteria that lie dormant for millions of years, yet come to life after being thawed out <---miraculous
~Water = tasteless yet delicious, soft, yet impossible to compress
~Manure=waste, yet, manure=fertilizer shockBy the way, a few people mentioned Quantum Physics and Probability earlier on... For those interested in a truly thrilling read, check out Briane Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos."
Thanks for the reference. I really enjoyed watching "The Elegant Universe". For those who are interested and haven't seen it, it's a must...
http//www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.htmlPeace,
Tay -
Peace be upon you Pheonix1,
But i don't think that at one point there was 'nothing.'
The Key to ife is the "NOTHINGNESS" you are denying (so far).
No-Things only means that Energy/Matter is UNFORMED, like the potters clay. When there is no Differntiation, then there are no FORMS, no OBJECTS to observe, therefore no THINGS.
Everything moves from the ONE UNFORMED, to the many forms. The ONE UNFORMED is the ESSENCE of all FORMS. It is the NOTHINGNESS where we are all connected.
That state of "no things" is what we call PEACE. Energy is at rest. Hiduism calls it NIRVANA (Nir=not Vana=moving). Kamit calls it AMEN, the state of Hetep(peace).
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Peace,
One of the great problems with Islam through the Qur?an alone, or more specifically its adherents, is that that they turn Islam into confusion under the guise finding the truth. And most people will never abandon something solid for confusion.
Quran (or God) Alone Muslims are forever caught up in insubstantial arguments that can never be brought to a conclusion. More problematic is that, while chastising traditional Muslims for the conclusion they have come to, Qur?an alone Muslims use the same method of analysis. They have just come to a different conclusion, or more appropriately many different conclusions. The arguments that they are making as to the myriad of nuances of the Qur?an have been made before.
For Islam through the use of the Qur?an alone to take a broader hold among the populace, a sold base must be formed. This can be easily done if Qur?an alone Muslims would just stop turning the solid elements of the Qur?an into metaphors.
Cheers,
Tim
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Peace be upon you Bu Daddy,
If you take the time to use OBJECTIVE SCIENCE, and magnify ALL OF CREATION, you will see that ALL THINGS are created from the same substance, that all things vibrate(move), etc.
This gives evidence of no things to things and from rest(peace) to movement.
Is this right or wrong SCIENTIFICALLY? Lets start there and see who is in confusion.
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Peace Idolefree1
If you take the time to use OBJECTIVE SCIENCE, and magnify ALL OF CREATION, you will see that ALL THINGS are created from the same substance, that all things vibrate(move), etc.
This gives evidence of no things to things and from rest(peace) to movement.
Is this right or wrong SCIENTIFICALLY? Lets start there and see who is in confusion.
You?re talking like an academic. If I put what you just said in front of your average person what do you think their response would be?
My background is marketing. And it?s difficult enough to get people to switch mobile phone service providers, let alone their religion. For God Alone to reach more people, the sales pitch has to?
Simplify.
I have to go to bed now.
Cheers,
Tim
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Peace be upon you,
Simplify?
Ok, when you magnify ANY OBJECT of creation, do you record movement? Do the molecules have movement? Even a solid steel beam?
Lets start there.
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peace Idolfree1,
i understand what you're saying but i can't get how there can be absolutely nothing. God was there, even when we weren't, so how is that nothing? we might see it all as one, but it is something. right?
And Nazz was implying (i think) that God made everything from nothing. But its not God but us who changed the 'nothing' to 'everything'. -
Peace be upon you Pheonix1,
i understand what you're saying but i can't get how there can be absolutely nothing.
Its not nothing, its No- THINGS. There is only consciousness, GOD. Te energy/matter of all things is at a state of REST. reation is the differntation of the energy/matter at rest into motion and forms.
God was there, even when we weren't, so how is that nothing?
Not the absence of energy/matter, but the unformed, at rest , state of enegy matter, so there are no OBJECTS to percieve. No THINGS.
we might see it all as one, but it is something. right?
Pure consciousness
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Peace BuDaddy,
You stated
One of the great problems with Islam through the Qur?an alone, or more specifically its adherents, is that that they turn Islam into confusion under the guise finding the truth
What any truth-seeker looks for is a light at the end of the tunnel. We must get the obstacles out of the way before the light is visible. So it's not about turning Islam into confusion under the guise of truth, it is getting through the confusion to reach the truth.
And most people will never abandon something solid for confusion.
Most people never look to see just how solid their foundations are, or more appropriately, are not.
Quran (or God) Alone Muslims are forever caught up in insubstantial arguments that can never be brought to a conclusion.
That's cetainly a gloomy outlook and one which I completely disagree with.
More problematic is that, while chastising traditional Muslims for the conclusion they have come to, Qur?an alone Muslims use the same method of analysis.
Please elaborate on this method, as I fail to see that there is one.
For Islam through the use of the Qur?an alone to take a broader hold among the populace, a sold base must be formed.
The base is already there in 1736.
This can be easily done if Qur?an alone Muslims would just stop turning the solid elements of the Qur?an into metaphors.
How does one differentiate between what is 'solid' and what is not?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
I?m between meetings and short on time, so I will address your counter in one sweep.
Qur?an alone Muslims are very good at pointing out that the Qur?an is fully detailed, and when it needs to be very specific. This is touted primarily when taking on Traditional Muslims. You point out their use of unclear verses as a vehicle for creating a system you reject. The problem is that once that is done, instead of sticking to the specifics that give you an unassailable argument; God Alone Muslims turn around and start tackling the same verses that got the traditional Muslims in trouble.
Just look at the topic of this thread. Do you not think this has been a topic of debate for nearly fourteen hundred years? How do you think we got ?To fallow the Messenger is to fallow God? = 6 books of hadith?
God tells us that there is content within the Qur?an that we will never understand and that trying to derive it?s meaning will only cause us problems. Just because a Muslim rejects hadith dose not mean they can derive a superior understanding of these unclear verses. And it is this trying to come to a superior understanding of this unclear content that is no different than any Muslim or scholar that has come before. ?God knows what you know not?.
This of course dose not mean that we ignore those verses that are not clear. Indeed, we must contemplate the whole Qur?an. We just have to stop using these verses to derive a system. The system within the Qur?an is simple and clear and easy to pitch, as long as you don?t cloud them with endless interpretations derived from unclear verse.
Cheers, )
Tim
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Peace BuDaddy,
Thanks for clarifying.
I understand where you're coming from, with some reservations. First, I think you're being very vague in your analysis, as well as very broad in the strokes your painting. Second, I think you're being presumptive of people's intentions, ie, "superior understanding".To be clear, Tim, my impression after 2 years in this forum is that this is a place to exchange ideas, to bounce thoughts off of each other. There is no doctrine, no system, no book or interpretation that's pushed. There's no agenda here. We're just looking for the truth.
So, I'm really not sure what or whom your beef is about.
It would make things easier to address if you were specific.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
To be clear, I believe very strongly in Islam through the Qur'an alone. But this is the antithesis of what my beef is.
Qur?an Alone Muslims (or perhaps too many of them) go out of their way to take down traditional Islam and then turn around and offer this.
There is no doctrine, no system, no book or interpretation that's pushed. There's no agenda here. We're just looking for the truth.
If you are going to take down the system that is traditional Islam (which is built on lies), you have to offer something more in return than a never-ending quest for the truth. This will turn people who would be open to the concept of Islam through the Qur?an alone off. It turns me off just as much as traditional Islam.
I live in a Muslim country. Do you know what people here say when these non-definitive rhetorical arguments are made by Qur?an Alone Muslims?
First they ask the question ?If this is wrong than what am I supposed to fallow??
Then, when no tangible answer is given then they say ?This is probably just a group of Jews getting together and coming up with a bunch of crap to divide Muslims?. This may sound absurd, but to them so does the notion of leaving the comfort of their (perceived or other wise) well established religion for a ?We're just looking for the truth?.
"We're just looking for the truth", is not a system that can be fallowed. Or do you wish to say there is not a system in Islam? What about the strait path? Don?t tell me the strait path is a vagary of perseption. ?
Cheers,
Tim
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First they ask the question ?If this is wrong than what am I supposed to fallow??
Peace Tim,
This is the question that the populace probably asked that got them into trouble in the first place. Seeing other people with man-made religions and rituals the populace who had been freed by the reading couldn't handle the freedom and wanted to go back to a life of rituals. So over time, they invented, borrowed, interpreted, and synthesised a bunch of doctrines that were just as convoluted and wrong as any other before them.
If you are sincere about what you state - following the reading alone, then what else could be the answer to the question above?
The debates that take place around some concepts changes nothing in relation to the key things in the reading - that there is no god other than the God, that you are accountable for your actions to Him, and that you should do good works and live a righteous life.
That you should feed the impoverished, and look after those who can't fend for themselves. To be honest always and completely fair in your practises and trade. All things that would come under the umbrella of righteousness. You already know these things.
What more is there? What else do you want to follow?
Regards.
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First they ask the question ?If this is wrong than what am I supposed to fallow??
Peace Tim,
This is the question that the populace probably asked that got them into trouble in the first place. Seeing other people with man-made religions and rituals the populace who had been freed by the reading couldn't handle the freedom and wanted to go back to a life of rituals. So over time, they invented, borrowed, interpreted, and synthesised a bunch of doctrines that were just as convoluted and wrong as any other before them.
If you are sincere about what you state - following the reading alone, then what else could be the answer to the question above?
The debates that take place around some concepts changes nothing in relation to the key things in the reading - that there is no god other than the God, that you are accountable for your actions to Him, and that you should do good works and live a righteous life.
That you should feed the impoverished, and look after those who can't fend for themselves. To be honest always and completely fair in your practises and trade. All things that would come under the umbrella of righteousness. You already know these things.
What more is there? What else do you want to follow?
Regards.
Peace Truth,
Ahhh at last!
I couldn?t agree with you more.
Please don?t begrudge me for playing devils advocate. People hire me to help pitch businesses to Venture Capitalists, so refining arguments in this way is habit.
Cheers,
Tim
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BuDaddy wrote
....Do you know what people here say when these non-definitive rhetorical arguments are made by Qur?an Alone Muslims?
First they ask the question ?If this is wrong than what am I supposed to fallow??
Then, when no tangible answer is given then they say ?This is probably just a group of Jews getting together and coming up with a bunch of crap to divide Muslims?.
They're just too blind to realize that they are already divided.
They're too blind to realize that they are implementing the Torat of the Jews without even being aware of it.And they still accuse us of trying to divide them..
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Peace be upon you Bu Daddy,
Qur?an alone Muslims are very good at pointing out that the Qur?an is fully detailed
For the record, it is Al Kitaab that is fully detailed, meaning that the Universe contains all we need. It is not referring to the physical book that has taken on this name "Koran".
and when it needs to be very specific. This is touted primarily when taking on Traditional Muslims. You point out their use of unclear verses as a vehicle for creating a system you reject. The problem is that once that is done, instead of sticking to the specifics that give you an unassailable argument; God Alone Muslims turn around and start tackling the same verses that got the traditional Muslims in trouble.
Again, through going through the "confusion" instead of avoiding it, we come to find out that there are signs in the UNIVERSE that are clear and straightfoward and others that are not as clear. It is in no way saying that The God gave us a message that we can never understand. We have to make this point CLEAR, or else there will develop a defeated mindset. How can you understand something that you have already convinced yourself is no understandbale?
Just look at the topic of this thread. Do you not think this has been a topic of debate for nearly fourteen hundred years? How do you think we got ?To fallow the Messenger is to fallow God? = 6 books of hadith?
It wil always be the case except for those who truly do the work.
God tells us that there is content within the Qur?an that we will never understand and that trying to derive it?s meaning will only cause us problems.
Never does the God say that.
Just because a Muslim rejects hadith dose not mean they can derive a superior understanding of these unclear verses. And it is this trying to come to a superior understanding of this unclear content that is no different than any Muslim or scholar that has come before. ?God knows what you know not?.
The God says that those with knowledge (observable proof) will understand. Verse 37 is not about the physical written book.
This of course dose not mean that we ignore those verses that are not clear. Indeed, we must contemplate the whole Qur?an. We just have to stop using these verses to derive a system. The system within the Qur?an is simple and clear and easy to pitch, as long as you don?t cloud them with endless interpretations derived from unclear verse.
Derive a system? The system is already in place, its just a matter of understanding the system and submitting to the LAW.
All of God's message can be understood, the more we purify the nafs and work righteousness.
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Peace be upon you,
Ahhh at last!
I couldn?t agree with you more.
Please don?t begrudge me for playing devils advocate
Never D Cause I love playing God's Advocate D
But I just want to point out that as we all agree what correct behavior deals with, the question is HOW do we get this info into our SPIRIT(nafs)? This message deals with Behavior SHAPING (emphasis on shaping). HOW do we make the change?
A hint The response of those in hellfire will say they were not of those who "salaat".
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Peace Idolfree1,
You know I was pretty much finished with this thread, but then you popped up.
I?ve been a convert to Islam since 1989, and read the Qur?an daily. I haven?t read every hadith, but most translated into English. Dealing with the media regularly, I?ve reviewed Shariah and Fiqh so I know where their boundaries lay (at least in the context of where I live). I speak 3 languages fluently (English, Bahasah Malaysia, and Indonesian). I?m about the only American that does speak Malay and Indonesian, so I?m regularly tapped as a consultant for large firms from both sides (I?ve lived in Malaysia for ten years). I have written detailed business proposals for, and pitched new technology companies. Do you know how complex Third Generation Mobile is? Not just the tech but also the revenue generating models. I?ve developed marketing campaigns where large sums of money are at stake. ?My opinion is valued, so I know I?m not stupid?.
Still, when you start to go on, I start to scratch my head. ?What is he talking about??
You sound just like a traditional Muslim when they are trying to set up the argument that ?You cannot just read the Qur?an and understand Islam. You need learned people to teach it to you?. Go back up and look at what Truth wrote. Anyone can understand that. Don?t bother replying to this as I am done with this thread (plus I?m busy the rest of the week). Just think about what I have said, please.
Cheers,
Tim
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Peace Be Upon you,
You know I was pretty much finished with this thread, but then you popped up.
Glad I caught you
I?ve been a convert to Islam since 1989, and read the Qur?an daily. I haven?t read every hadith, but most translated into English. Dealing with the media regularly, I?ve reviewed Shariah and Fiqh so I know where their boundaries lay (at least in the context of where I live). I speak 3 languages fluently (English, Bahasah Malaysia, and Indonesian). I?m about the only American that does speak Malay and Indonesian, so I?m regularly tapped as a consultant for large firms from both sides (I?ve lived in Malaysia for ten years). I have written detailed business proposals for, and pitched new technology companies. Do you know how complex Third Generation Mobile is? Not just the tech but also the revenue generating models. I?ve developed marketing campaigns where large sums of money are at stake. ?My opinion is valued, so I know I?m not stupid?.
The word "stupid" comes from STUPOR, meaning being asleep. Your intellectual ability, which sounds good according to your resume, does not equate to you being spiritually awake.
Still, when you start to go on, I start to scratch my head. ?What is he talking about??
Well, it certainly has nothing to do with Malaysian Shariah and Fiqh, so if you are trying to understand me from that, it wont work. But there is certainly no compulsion for you to try to understand me, I am merely giving you what I have. You are free to accept or reject.
You sound just like a traditional Muslim when they are trying to set up the argument that ?You cannot just read the Qur?an and understand Islam. You need learned people to teach it to you?.
Hmmmm, you mean to tell me that a person who holds the understanding that true knowledge comes from WITHIN, and that all people have the potential to be a "nabi" (intuiter) can also hold the viewpoint you just gave about me?
Go back up and look at what Truth wrote. Anyone can understand that. Don?t bother replying to this as I am done with this thread (plus I?m busy the rest of the week). Just think about what I have said, please.
I'm glad you did not scratch your head with what Truth wrote. Hopefully one day, when you are not so busywith the earthly life, you will have time to reflect upon what I have said and perhaps will understand.