To "Tay" and all those who believe GOD never....
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Salam sawtooth,
Miracle are simply sonething that is unexplainable by our current knowledge. Think of how many things man has called "miracle" in the past but has since been explained? I think in our arrogance, man often forgets that is knowledge is infinately LIMITED.
JK- Not necessarily unexplainable but a miracle is something which is too powerful for a human or a collection of humans to do at any particular time period. Therefore GOD says in the Quran that whenever He abrogates a miracle He substitutes it with something new or at least equal. So yes many miracles from previous times wore out and were substituted with new ones. The significant ones are mentioned in the Quran. GOD Bless!
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Peace Johnny K,
You stated
You misinterpret the following verses to mean that GOD never changes the laws of nature or never intervenes into them
As I said to Ahmed, I have no problem with your beliefs. You want to believe that supernatural events took place thousands of years ago, be my guest. If it makes you feel better, if it brings you closer to God, then that is just dandy wink
I'm accountable only for me. I've never seen a sea split, or a stick turn to a snake, or a man sleep for 100 years, or someone getting swallowed by a supernatural fish and surviving, or people flying from country to country, etc. etc. These stories do nothing for my faith. I know Allah "can" do whatever Allah pleases. That will never falter. I don't need to believe in a miracle that I've never seen in order to strengthen my faith. To me, hair growing, yet being dead, but not decaying, is a miracle. The fact that we're moving at thousands of miles an hour, yet I sleep in perfect stillness is a miracle. The universe being made of only electricity is a miracle. Life, here and now, is a miracle. That's where I keep my focus.
To my knowledge, the laws of nature do not change. Allah holds me accountable to my knowledge only.
So, if you feel that everytime the Qur'an tells us Allah's laws don't change, it's referring only to the immediate context, I have no argument. But I don't agree with you.
You say I'm misinterpreting, I say you're oversimplifying.
Allah knows best.
Peace,
Tay -
peace
that's the problem with people and their supernatural miracles. They look at God not as God, but some super human. God can do anything he wants. He can fly, and he can make people fly. He can do anything. For them, what God has created isnt enough. God's perfect world, his perfect laws, his perfect system arent enough for them. They need God to bend his laws and break them, even, for them to believe in Him. God isnt part of this world. He's beyond it. He's not even a "he".
And I, atleast, wasn't referring to those ayahs. -
Peace to all
just my 2c, Allah simply can do what He wants when He wants, it is very true as tay said that seeing the hair grow is an amazing miracle on its own, we have enough miracles aroud us to see God' power and prefection in His creations
Believers do need to believe in the past miracles the Quran told us about, and they just can't deny it because it is written in the very book they claim they believe in, I think this is a clear cut contradiction on its own merit
I believe in Allah who sent the Quran and I believe in the Quran, but I don't believe in the miracles written in it, lol
A VERY BIG CONTRADICTION
what is also another obvious contradiction, that verse 23 says to be a believer YOU MUST BELIEVE IN THE "Ghaib" ie "The Unseen",
Then they come back and say, oh sorry we can't believe in those miracles because WE DID NOT SEE IT,
well if you get caught 2 times red handed, i reckon it should hurt bad
peace to all
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Salam sister/brother Tay,
As I said to Ahmed, I have no problem with your beliefs. You want to believe that supernatural events took place thousands of years ago, be my guest. If it makes you feel better, if it brings you closer to God, then that is just dandy wink
JK- It sure does make me feel much better. This way i can experience GOD's awesome Power in my brain and sometimes i even think that someday GOD might again intervene to destroy the evil people and let them gaze in amazement while now theyr totally ignorant.
I'm accountable only for me. I've never seen a sea split, or a stick turn to a snake, or a man sleep for 100 years, or someone getting swallowed by a supernatural fish and surviving, or people flying from country to country, etc. etc.
JK- Ive havent seen that either but not seeing a thing doesnt mean it cant happen. This is what id call oversimplifying. You dont see electrons either but you know theyr there through inference. The Quran anrrates the stories. The Quran is a mathematically coded scripture and is proven by code-19 to be textually through. Thus we can indirectly INFER that it's stories are also true and hence the miracles are too. Simple.
These stories do nothing for my faith. I know Allah "can" do whatever Allah pleases. That will never falter. I don't need to believe in a miracle that I've never seen in order to strengthen my faith.
JK- Ok, but what you need or dont need is irrelevant here since GOD has revealed the miracles in His Quran and thus we should appreciate them. Thats the point. If GOD shows you a sign/miracle today, you cant say "well GOD i dont need it". That would be arrogance. If GOD decides to give you a sign or narrates to you a sign/miracle then you must be appreciative thereof.
To me, hair growing, yet being dead, but not decaying, is a miracle. The fact that we're moving at thousands of miles an hour, yet I sleep in perfect stillness is a miracle. The universe being made of only electricity is a miracle. Life, here and now, is a miracle. That's where I keep my focus.
JK- True and so do i but miracles vary in their strength and magnitude. I appreciate the accounts in the Quran indicating miracles also.
To my knowledge, the laws of nature do not change. Allah holds me accountable to my knowledge only.
JK- That is the 1st honest statement i heard from somebody claiming that GOD doesnt change/intervene in the laws of nature by claiming that this is as far as your knowledge is concerened. I appreciate that but this also means that you should LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN and not become narrow minded.
So, if you feel that everytime the Qur'an tells us Allah's laws don't change, it's referring only to the immediate context, I have no argument. But I don't agree with you.
JK- You see we cannot take verses out of context. If we start doing that then logically every kind of interpretation is possible making the real message of no account. This cannot be done. The context is very important. Languages are ambiguous and can only be understood by considering the immediate context.
You say I'm misinterpreting, I say you're oversimplifying.
Allah knows best.
Peace,
TayJK- Id like to know how since ive explained my point above. GOD Bless!
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Salam phoenix,
that's the problem with people and their supernatural miracles. They look at God not as God, but some super human. God can do anything he wants. He can fly, and he can make people fly. He can do anything.
JK- Now wait a minute, WAIT A MINUTE. Please dont turn this into a joke. GOD is infinite in everything including size, strength, etc hence it doesnt make any sense of saying that GOD flies or GOD moves. GOD is already everywhere so the question of Him flying or moving doesnt arise. This should be very clear. And yes GOD can do anything, create anything, change anything, etc.
For them, what God has created isnt enough. God's perfect world, his perfect laws, his perfect system arent enough for them. They need God to bend his laws and break them, even, for them to believe in Him. God isnt part of this world. He's beyond it. He's not even a "he".
And I, atleast, wasn't referring to those ayahs.JK- Now hold it bro. This again is not true at all. BUT once GOD out of His Own Mercy shows us signs or sends us miracles THEN we are not to reject them saying "GOD, what we have is enough", coz that would be arrgant, but appreciate it. This is exactly what we are doing. GOD has sent us a mathematically coded book Quran by which we can infer that it is of True Divine Origin and thus all the accounts/strories it contains are also true hence the miracles mentioned in It can now well be appreciated. Simple. As for GOD not being part of this world we know that for sure and never denied that and the "He" is just a grammatical usage arbitrary or somehow adapted by the language. I guess its because in the olden times male gender was associated with more power and glory than the female thus and the choices were either "he" or "she", thus the 1st was chosen. GOD Bless!
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Hello bro JK
It seems to me that you are well set on the understanding that the Quran has been proven the true book of Allah because of code 19?
I'm sorry bro this can't be true because simply code 19 was discovered 1400 years after Islam, this means all those generations didn't have an assurance that it is the true words of Allah
The only assurance bro is the Arabic content in it
peace be with you
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peace
i don't think Tay, or me, thinks those stories in the Quran are fake. We believe them, we believe in them. I do, atleast. The point is, whether these stories actually happened in reality exactly the way described in the Quran or are they allegories used by Allah to simplify for us the text. And it does get very simplified if they are interpreted as allegories of symbols. The complications occur when we try to rationalize and believe that they happened in reality.
The bottom line, though, is that it doesnt matter whether these stories are allegories or actual happenings. We don't need them to have faith in God. What's important is the lesson we learn from them, and that's what we should be focusing on.
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Salam bro Ahmed Bahgat
Hello bro JK
It seems to me that you are well set on the understanding that the Quran has been proven the true book of Allah because of code 19?
I'm sorry bro this can't be true because simply code 19 was discovered 1400 years after Islam, this means all those generations didn't have an assurance that it is the true words of Allah
JK- Ive discussed this many times though but lemme make it short. We dont know what methods GOD used in the past to protect the Quran and it is totally irrelevant for our generation. Fact is in 1974 GOD deemed it fit to show us a perfect protection method which is the mathematical code. I do agree that memorization also served as part of the protection but without the mathematical miracle it would be virtually impossible to believe in the Qurn Alone as speaking of today.
The only assurance bro is the Arabic content in it
peace be with you
JK- No here i must strongly disagree with you. The Arabic content is very much disputable and any religion can somehow manage to claim today that theirs is the right book by interpreting its content according to their desires. Thus this argument may have stood in the past but has become weak. Thus GOD says
When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?
And indeed He has done just that. GOD Bless! -
i don't think Tay, or me, thinks those stories in the Quran are fake. We believe them, we believe in them. I do, atleast. The point is, whether these stories actually happened in reality exactly the way described in the Quran or are they allegories used by Allah to simplify for us the text.
JK- As i mentioned before whenever theres an allegory GOD tells us that Hes citing a parable. If He just anrrates an account then it must be that way otherwise again it wouldnt make sense because this way the whole Quran may be taken allegorically rendering all the laws and commands mentioned in it as utterly useless which is absurd.
And it does get very simplified if they are interpreted as allegories of symbols. The complications occur when we try to rationalize and believe that they happened in reality.
JK- NO IT DOESNT. Its exactly the other way around. Your complicating things by attempting to make an allegory out of a literal account. I never had problems with it all my life and so many scientists including Rashad Khalifa didnt too.
The bottom line, though, is that it doesnt matter whether these stories are allegories or actual happenings. We don't need them to have faith in God. What's important is the lesson we learn from them, and that's what we should be focusing on.
JK- Ok but we should not say that its all just allegory either. GOD Bless!
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Salam Phoenix,
peace
but again, about miracles, why would God have to break his own laws, his own promise, to prove His existence?
JK- Oridnary laws of nature are everyday life experience. People become used to that and take it for granted. This too is natural. Likewise if you lived amongst Jinn for example all your life then those ceratures would be nothing really interesting or miraculous to you but if you are confronted suddenly with something great then that makes the great difference. Thats why GOD at times did this to reboost the minds of the people so that they recognize His Power and this is actually a favor from Him. Simple. GOD Bless!
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Peace Johnny,
Ive havent seen that either but not seeing a thing doesnt mean it cant happen.
Exactly. And I admitted that. But again, and again, and again, "can't" and "won't" are 2 different things. This is my position. Why are you trying to force your position on me?
This is what id call oversimplifying
Wonderful!
The Quran is a mathematically coded scripture ...
OK. I submit to your messenger. Can you stop bringing his teachings into every discussion now?
Ok, but what you need or dont need is irrelevant here
I'm sorry Johnny, but what I need is very relevant. My destiny is between myself and my Creator.
GOD has revealed the miracles in His Quran and thus we should appreciate them. Thats the point.
I do appreciate the text, and the guidance behind it, just not the way you would have me appreciate it. That's the point.
If GOD shows you a sign/miracle today, you cant say "well GOD i dont need it". That would be arrogance.
To be clear, Johnny, I don't need the crutch of supernatural stories from millenia ago. I appreciate Allah, and the guidance, without having to believe in these phenomena. Here and Now, I appreciate every moment of my life, every breath, every second. It's not arrogance, it's humility. Do you understand?
What is arrogant is going around telling people what they should and shouldn't believe, as if you have intimate knowledge of Allah's intentions.
Now if something supernatural occurred to me today, I would be in awe, reconfirming what I already know.
I ask you to ponder, without any concept of my underlying agenda, the following
6158
Do they wait until the Angels will come to them, or your Lord comes, or some signs from your Lord? The day some signs come from your Lord, it will do no good for any soul to believe if it did not believe before, or it gained good through its belief. Say "Wait, for we are waiting."I appreciate that but this also means that you should LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN and not become narrow minded.
Please look in the mirror, my friend. It required painstaking open-mindedness for me to shed the dogma of my Sunni upbringing. I once believed in all the miracles. I no longer do. And that is on me. I live by 1736, and if you see that as a fault, then take it up with your Creator.
You see we cannot take verses out of context.
It's not out of context, it's broader application.
Id like to know how(oversimplifying) since ive explained my point above.
By compartmentalizing Allah's guidance to it's immediate context.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Ahmed,
You stated
I believe in Allah who sent the Quran and I believe in the Quran, but I don't believe in the miracles written in it, lol
A VERY BIG CONTRADICTION
There is no contradiction, silly.
I believe in the signs, which happen to be the same text that you call miracles. So, you see, I believe in the text, but not the way you do.nope no contradiction.
what is also another obvious contradiction, that verse 23 says to be a believer YOU MUST BELIEVE IN THE "Ghaib" ie "The Unseen",
Oh, you mean like malaika and jinn and iblis? I believe in those unseen - just not the way you do. So, again, no contradiction. nope
Then they come back and say, oh sorry we can't believe in those miracles because WE DID NOT SEE IT,
I see, so now the story of Maryam and Isa is classified as ghaib? You're stretching again bro.
3179 Allah will not leave the believers in the state in which you are now, until He separates what is evil from what is good nor will He disclose to you the secrets of the Unseen(alghaybi). But He chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases. So believe in Allah. And His messengers And if you believe and do right, you have a reward without measure.
But thanks for your 2c wink
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Ahmed,
Peace Tay
You stated
I believe in Allah who sent the Quran and I believe in the Quran, but I don't believe in the miracles written in it, lol
A VERY BIG CONTRADICTION
There is no contradiction, silly.
I believe in the signs, which happen to be the same text that you call miracles. So, you see, I believe in the text, but not the way you do.nope no contradiction.
Ok, ok, sorry, I thought you don't believe in it at all, like you don't believe that Jesus has no father and that is also a miracle by Allah stated in the Quran
what is also another obvious contradiction, that verse 23 says to be a believer YOU MUST BELIEVE IN THE "Ghaib" ie "The Unseen",
Oh, you mean like malaika and jinn and iblis? I believe in those unseen - just not the way you do. So, again, no contradiction. nope
Ok, i just misunderstood you, but why you don't believe that Jesus has no father then?, the text was also clear in the Quran, see if you believe in the existance of the unseen Jinn that easy, how come you can't believe in a much easier task on Allah to create Jesus without a father?, you are the one that caused my confusion about you, because as far as I believe that miracle of Jesus birth was as clear as it can get in the Quran according to Allah plan, the idea you are proposing was not clear at all, sorry to side track
Then they come back and say, oh sorry we can't believe in those miracles because WE DID NOT SEE IT,
I see, so now the story of Maryam and Isa is classified as ghaib? You're stretching again bro.
3179 Allah will not leave the believers in the state in which you are now, until He separates what is evil from what is good nor will He disclose to you the secrets of the Unseen(alghaybi). But He chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases. So believe in Allah. And His messengers And if you believe and do right, you have a reward without measure.
Thanks bro for asking this question and give me the chance to try and logically stretch it again, I was expecting it from a smart and picky guy to be honest, this is not a sarcastic comment, I wished that you raise this very good question, and as always the Quran have the answer, yes these stories are Stories of the Ghaib that was revealed to Mohammad, i didn't say that, the Quran said it here it is, and amzingly it was linked to the story of mary that you don't believe happened
42- And when the angels said O Marium! surely Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of of the world.
43- O Marium! keep to obedience to your Lord and humble yourself, and bow down with those who bow.
44- This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you; and you were not with them when they cast their pens (to decide) which of them should have Marium in his charge, and you were not with them when they contended one with another.
45- When the angels said O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
46- And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones.
(42)
(43)
(44)
(45)
(46)
well, what can I say bro, the Quran keeps refuting your false claim about Jesus, also may I ask a couple of qeustions please
what do you think verse 446 means in regard to Jesus talking to the people?
and my other question
do you think I'm still stretching it?
But thanks for your 2c wink
Peace,
TayNo worries and i hope I added another 2c wink
Peace
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Peace Tay
Sorry to bother you again, I need to elaborate on the verse you posted in fact it clearly shows where you are mixed up
I see, so now the story of Maryam and Isa is classified as ghaib? You're stretching again bro.
3179 Allah will not leave the believers in the state in which you are now, until He separates what is evil from what is good nor will He disclose to you the secrets of the Unseen(alghaybi). But He chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases. So believe in Allah. And His messengers And if you believe and do right, you have a reward without measure.
So you brought in verse 3179 and you think that Allah does not disclose Al-Ghaib to Mohammad,
I?m sorry bro the verse was directed at the believers that Allah will not disclose to them those secrets of the unseen, then he excluded the prophets that he chooses to disclose to them the Ghaib it is obvious bro from ? But He chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases. So believe in Allah. And His messengers? here is the whole Arabic verse for the Arabic readers
(179)
The red words represented in the translation you posted by "But He chooses of His Messengers whom He pleases."
Ie. Allah will disclose some secrets to the messengers He chose then those messengers will disclose it to us, however you are here going totally against the odds, because you are denying what Allah is disclosing to us directly in the Quran through the stories of the people before us an example from the Quran of these disclosures to the prophets was posted in my last comment,
344 CELARLY SAYS THIS IS RELATING TO THE DISCLOSURE OF THE GHAIB and amazingly bro the story of Mariam was told after and the fact you use that you did not see WAS TOLD TO THE PROPHET THAT HE ALSO DIDN'T SEE IT AND SURE HE MUST BELIEVE IN IT HIMSELF AS WELL
44- This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you; and you were not with them when they cast their pens (to decide) which of them should have Marium in his charge, and you were not with them when they contended one with another.
(44)
Peace be with you
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Peace,
A miracle is something which is too powerful for a human or a collection of humans to do at any particular time period.
So earthquakes, volcanoes, and hurricanes are all miracles according to you even though they are commonplace?
I also do not require miracles to believe and echo Tay's sentiments in relation to life itself. The fact that there is anything at all - rather than nothing is to me the only "miracle".
Regards.