How do we know that Iblis and Satan are the same?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Ahmed,

(214) And if they were alone with their shayteen they said "Surely we are with you, but we are mocking ."

peace mate

214 for ,e is talking about the terrorists and tehir shayateen for me is their leaders in hiding

Oh, I can see how that would be guidance for mankind , we all have terrorists that we are ALONE with, dont we?

idolfree1 wrote
Have you ever been alone with little red men with pitch forks, talking to them?

no

Good, how about terrorists?

idolfree1 wrote
Anyone you know do that? But we do sit home and talk to the thoughts in our minds, the ones that say "go ahead, eat that chocolate cake even though you are overweight", or "go ahead and have sex with that girl, even though you are married to someone else", etc etc.

no but I can hear them, the Quran told us we can 't see them but they can see us, now tell me how an ego sees?

You see how that literal viewpoint stops you at every step? I guess when you figure out how a HEART has eyes, you will figure this part out, because it is not the eyes that are blind, its the heart, remember? The statement that they see us but we dont see them is to say they are hidden (jinn) and they effect us as if they see our every move.

idolfree1 wrote
Why would you believe in some "devil" out there? How can you get past santa claus but get caught up here?

I don;t belive there only some devil, rather heaps of them, and who is santa claus, is he a devil name?

Yes, the devil is legions, one incorrect thought like literal interpretations for example leads to all kind of wrong ideas(legions).

idolfree1 wrote
Do you know why the devil was painted as having horns and tail and hoofs? Because it is the ANIMAL NATURE within us that we are fighting against, the emotions, that which ANIMATES YOU. In the Bible Jesus said "get ye behind me satan". The emotions must follow the will, not lead.

really?, anyway OI careless in how he looks because Allah told us we can't see them, but if I have a guess I reckon they are too ugly

Ok

idolfree1 wrote
So solomon showed us how to make the emotions follow and work for us.

really?, solomon didnlt show me anything, I also didn't see solomon, but let me ask you how did he show you?

Through the metaphor.

idolfree1 wrote
But as has been said to you on several occasions, you are free to keep following the literal, unproveable path.

Haha, the literal now becomes unprovable, hence you suggest that the non literal is provable? that is funny mate please show me your proofs, but wait for my thread Tay and you are welcome to respond there

Let me know when its ready.

unknownuser

Peace idolfree

here is what you asked for, can you debate me that these verses are not abnout the terrorists and similar i call them "Confused believers"

Does the Quran talk about the terrorists?

We all know that the Quran is divided into 114 Suras ?Chapters?

The first Sura is called ?Al-Fataha?, like ?Introduction? and is only 7 verses, the second Sura starting at page 2 is called ?Al-Baqara?, which means ?The Cow?, this is actually the longest Sura in the Quran and consists of 286 verses, this Sura has plenty of information regarding many things like the history of the first humankind on earth, explaining who is our One and only God ?Allah?, and sure the story of Adam and Eve and many more about the Jews and others, what is striking in this Sura is verses 2 to 20, in these verses Allah is telling us about 3 groups of people similar to a passage in the Bible, however the Quran was clear as light in the descriptions of these groups of people, in fact the Quran is always clear as light in about 95% of its contents, it was designed this way as stated in it numerous times, let?s start by looking what the Quran said about these 3 groups of people, all the verses mentioned are

The First Group ? verses 22-5 ? The Believers

(2) ?This is the Book (The Quran); in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;?

(3) ?Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;?

(4) ?And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.?

(5) ?They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.?

(2)

(3)

(4)

(5)

The believers descriptions are very clear, extracted from the above verses as follow

Verse 2 ?This is the Book (The Quran); in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;?, i.e. the Quran is their guidance and they fear Allah.

Verse 3 ?Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;?, i.e. they believe in the UNSEEN, they are steadfast in prayer and they give money to the poor and needy.

Verse 4 ?And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.?, i.e. they believe in the Quran, they believe in all previous inspirations, and they have the assurance of the hereafter.

Verse 5 ?They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.?, i.e they follow the and unchanged guidance and they are the ones that will prosper.

The Second Group ? verses 6-7 ? The Unbelievers

(6) ?As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.?

(7) ?Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).?

(6)

(7)

-> The unbelievers descriptions are very clear as well, extracted from the above verses as follow

Verse 6 ?As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.?. i.e. They reject faith (rejected the Quran), they will never believe wether they are warned or not.

Verse 7?Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).?, i.e. they have seals on their hearts and hearings set upon by Allah as a result of their arrogance, they have also veils over they eyes, and they will incur a great punishment for their arrogance, this seal and veil set by Allah are actually explain why these unbelievers will not believe wether they are warned or not as stated in verse 6, it is like they have been cursed by Allah due to their arrogance and their biased hearts and minds.

The Third Group ? verses 28-20 ? The Terrorists or The Hypocrites?

I will walk you through it verse by verse while extracting the decriptions, to make it as clear as possible

( ?Of the people there are some who say "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.?

(

-> i.e. They say they believe in Allah and the Last Day, BUT they do not really believe.

(9) ?Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!?

(9)

-> i.e. They deceive Allah and they deceive the believers (the first group), but they actually deceive themselves and they DO NOT REALISE THEIR SELF DECEPTION, this is clear as light that those thugs deceive Allah, now please tell me, what more deception to Allah than beheading an innocent man while cheering with Allah?s name?, as well, can you see that those thugs deceive the believers as well as stated. This can happen in two ways as we we see it now, deception to all believers by misleading the whole world and showing the innocent religion as a barbaric one, as well trying to recruit the young believers and convince them by deception to commit atrocities by strapping bombs around them and blow away any innocent human in the vicinity including Muslims, well, the Quran told us in this verse that the terrorists only deceive themselves and they do not realise it.

(10) ?In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).?

(10)

-> i.e. Their hearts is full of diseases, this is a perfect and accurate description about the terrorists, what sort of ill heart a person have to behead or order to behead an innocent man?, well a very sick heart for sure, this heart sickness is increased by Allah because of their submission to Satan, it is like Allah will make them commit more crimes so THE GRIEVOUS IS THE PENALTY THEY INCUR because they are FALSE TO THEMSELVES, what an accuracy in describing those thugs, still more to follow.

(11) ?When it is said to them "Make not mischief on the earth," they say "Why, we are the ones who make things right!"

(11)

-> i.e. When we call those thugs to stop their atrocities and the mischief on earth they commit, they respond by saying that they are the ones who are doing things right, another perfect description about the terrorists.

(12) ?Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.?

(12)

-> i.e. Allah is telling us not to believe those thugs (who claimed they are the ones who are doings things right) by confirming to us that they are indeed ?surety? the ones who are making mischief on earth and still do not realise it, perfect description again.

(13) ?When it is said to them "Believe as the others believe" They say "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.?

(13)

-> i.e. Those thugs were called to believe as the normal believers believe (the first group) but they respond by saying that the normal believers are fool, and Allah is telling us that indeed ?surety? they are the real fools and they still do not know it.

(14) ?When they meet those who believe, they say "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say "We are really with you We (were) only jesting."

(14)

-> i.e. Some of those thugs pray with us in the mosques showing that they are believers ?those are the unknown recruited ones?, but when they meet the leaders in hiding ?their evil ones? they say they were only jesting them (the believers), I see the evil ones as the known terrorists leaders like Laden and Zarqawi, the evil ones can also be the "Kareen" that Allah has assigned for each one of them.

(15) ?Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).?

(15)

-> i.e. Allah is very angry with those thugs and consequently this what must happen Allah will throw back their mockery on them, He will give them rope in their trespasses and they will wander like blinds.

(16) ?These are they who have bartered Guidance for error But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,?

(16)

-> i.e. Those terrorists who took error in place of guidance, and their traffic is profitless (think about the ransoms they asked for the kidnapping or possibly their drug dealing in Afganistan? and they indeed lost the true direction.

(17) ?Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.?

(17)

-> i.e. Allah is giving us a similitude of those thugs of someone who lit a light, then the light lighted all around him and suddenly Allah will take their light away and leave them in darkness, well I see this verse as saying that those thugs will succeed in some of their sick atrocities ?it lighted all around him? but the bottom line is their final destination is indeed going to be darkness.

(1 ?Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).?

(1

-> i.e. They are Deaf, Dumb and Blind, indeed the verse is telling us that they will not return to the right path, another perfect descriptions.

(19) ?Or (another similitude) is that of a rain-laden cloud from the sky In it are zones of darkness, and thunder and lightning They press their fingers in their ears to keep out the stunning thunder-clap, the while they are in terror of death. But Allah is ever round the rejecters of Faith!?

(19)

-> This verse really stroke me hard when I read the Eglish translation by Yusuf Ali. It is giving another similitude about the terrorists, the similitude is like them walking in darkness while there is thunder rain and lighting, and those thugs are too scared from this hostile environment and they keep pressing their fingers in their ears to keep out the stunning thunder clap while they are in terror of death, mates, this is like them being bombarded by the allies B52s, what do you think?

BUT WHAT STRIKE ME MORE IS THE WORD ?LADEN? in the sentence ?is that of a rain-laden cloud from the sky? as translated by Yusuf Ali, sure I know that the verse is not talking about Bin Laden, but what an amazing coincidence that is for the English readers, I actually laughed when I noticed it, I love the Quran, how accurate it is under any circumstances?.

(20) ?The lightning all but snatches away their sight; every time the light (Helps) them, they walk therein, and when the darkness grows on them, they stand still. And if Allah willed, He could take away their faculty of hearing and seeing; for Allah hath power over all things.?

(20)

-> This is the rest of the similitude started in verse 19, it shows how this hostile environment will destroy the terrorists.

Ok brothers and sisters, this is very accurate stuff and very explicit to the terrorists and in the Quran first page, when I discussed this with most reasonable and open minded muslims, most agreed and some tried to tell me that it talks about the the hypocrites "Al Monafiqoon", the problem here will be that the Quran is never shy to call the Hypocrites "Hypocrites", in fact there is a whole sura called "The Hypocrites" , this sura consists of 11 verses, in 8 of those verses the Quran talks about the Hypocrites and call them Hypocrites 4 times, while in the 13 verses 2820, it never used the word Hypocrites to describe them, as well you do not call a hypocrite to believe as the others believe because a hypocrite is already showing that he is a believer. further more, I will agree that some of the descriptions above fit a hypocrite, but NOT all decriptions fit a hypocrite, please go through it verse by verse again (8-20) and see for yourself if every description fit a hypocrite, MY STRONGEST ARGUMENT THAT IT HAS TO BE THE TERRORISTS BECAUSE ALLAH NEVER CALLED THEM HYPOCRITES IN THOSE 13 VERSES, AND LOGICALLY SPEAKING, IF ALLAH NEVER USED THE WORD HYPOCRITE ONCE TO DESCRIBE THOSE PEOPLE THEN MOST LIKELY IT IS NOOT ABOUT THE HYPOCRITES, AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE DESCRIPTIONS AGAIN YOU WILL SEE THAT EVERY SINGLE ONE WILL FIT A TERRORIST

Thanks for reading

Ahmed Bahgat

Tay

Peace Ahmed,

Here it is again

no I'm not sracastic
it is common knowledge to have a bit of sarcasim, hence I consider it part of it

See? - 2 different/opposite answers to the same query.

It's not about being picky. It's not about whether or not sarcasm is commonly used in debating.

It's about you giving 2 different answers, brother.

Let's see how the new thread goes wink

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

Here it is again

no I'm not sracastic
it is common knowledge to have a bit of sarcasim, hence I consider it part of it

peace tay

tne first can also mean that I'm not generaly sarcastic lol

the second is only relating to religious debates only

See? - 2 different/opposite answers to the same query.

sorry, i don't see it this way , they are different answers to two different situations

in general (and I'm not)
specific to religious debates (and I'm)

It's not about being picky. It's not about whether or not sarcasm is commonly used in debating.

ok then , yep saracasm is part of the debating game as far as I believe, but it can be practised in healthy and in a non offending manner lol

It's about you giving 2 different answers, brother.

yep they are for a two different situations
for eample I'm not sracastic with you now because we don't debate religions, therefore in general I'm not sarcastic lol

Let's see how the new thread goes wink

Peace,
Tay

well i wasted my time with memeber somewhere so I will be running a bit late

I will present my evidences then you can present yours and after that we can respond to each one's bit by bit, sounds fair?

peace

Tay

Peace Ahmed,

You stated

tne first can also mean that I'm not generaly sarcastic

the second is only relating to religious debates only

Bro, is it that hard for you to admit your fault? Are you that prideful that you would deny what's in plain black and white for everyone to see? You replied with 2 opposite responses to the same exact inquiry. First you denied being sarcastic, then, when I pointed out the smiley face laughing you said sarcasm was part of debate. shock

My goodness man!

You seem to be educated and you continually boast about your mastery of the Arabic language. How about showing a bit of humility, bro.

Take care, and Happy New Year,
Tay

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

You stated

tne first can also mean that I'm not generaly sarcastic

the second is only relating to religious debates only

Bro, is it that hard for you to admit your fault? Are you that prideful that you would deny what's in plain black and white for everyone to see? You replied with 2 opposite responses to the same exact inquiry. First you denied being sarcastic, then, when I pointed out the smiley face laughing you said sarcasm was part of debate. shock

Peace bro

I did no fault and you can keep talking but I will not discuss it any more as I have no time to waste

also I think I said bloody sorry for a couple of times that you ignored therefore forget about my post to you, as I changed my mind

My goodness man!

You seem to be educated and you continually boast about your mastery of the Arabic language. How about showing a bit of humility, bro.

well here it is again, I made no mistake neither I humiliated you, you can keep convincing yourself and state non sense

I explianed myself enough as well said bloody sorry twice to to show my humanity but I inisist I did nothing wrong to you

Take care, and Happy New Year,
Tay

Likewiise and happy new year to you too

ahmed

unknownuser

Salaam Brothers,
I have been following along reading (sometimes with amusement) at the posts to this thread. Unfortunatley I have been to preoccupied and too busy to reply. But I have time now ) .

First of all....lets get back to the topic and stop focusing on sarcasm and semantics of our (humanly flawed) speech. Its often very easy by the way to type one thing and have it read by another person to mean something entirely different. We don't all have the same thought pattern.

Second.... I believe the Quran states in 37....
37 (Literal translation acording to YAQB.org) He is who descended on you The Book , from it (are) perfected/tightened verses, they are (F) The Book's origin/mother , and others resembling/ambiguous/obscure , so but those who in their hearts/minds (is) deviation from truth , so they follow what resembled from it, asking/desiring the treason and asking/desiring its interpretation/explanation , and none knows its interpretation/explanation except God. And the affirmed in the knowledge , they say "We believed with it, all/each (is) from at our Lord, and none remember/mention except (those) of the pure minds/intelligence ."

I think I can see the symbolism that idolfree mz357, and Tay are talking about but I don't know if it holds true in all instances and also at present time I can't find any verse in the Quran that suggests we should read it as allegorical. Please provide verses if you can find any.

Third.... With the second point in mind...someone please explain to me how Iblis and Shaitan get confused as the same entity (in arabic....forget the english translations who call Iblis the devil and satan etc) I'm talking about the Arabic verses that referre to SHAITAN and the others that referre to IBLIS and how some Muslims consider them to be one entity.

Salam,
I believe the difference on THE WORD GRAMMATICAL LEVEL between "iblis" and "shaitaan" is the same as that between "allah" and "ilah" where the first is specific and the second common. "iblis" can often be found to have been translated by Arabic dictionaries as "THE Devil" or "Satan(with capital S)". Thus "Iblis" may be equated with "ASH(silent "l" before sun character "sheen")-shaitaan" in Arabic measning "THE devil". And i agree it refers to a particular devil, the Boss Devil. GOD Bless!

I'm sorry I don't see it....how can the fact that both words contain the same character mean that they share the same or similiar definition....a root word I understand but not on the basis of the words sharing just a single character. Forgive my ignorance. I'm sure you can make me understand.

Fourth.....How can Iblis be a Shaitan....and a Jinn? I am thoroughly confused on how the three are intertangled.
Here is my current understanding
Iblis is a Jinn
Shaitan....I don't know what he/those are.
I know that hell is filled with disbelievers and those (of men and jinn)who commit shirk etc.
The Jinn don't even know the unseen.....
3414 (Free-Minds) Then, when We decreed death for him, nothing informed them of his death until a worm kept eating from his staff, so when he fell down, the Jinn realised that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in the humiliating retribution.
I understand that the root of Jinn is commonly believed to indicate that the jinn are unseen...but they are made of an element (fire) like us (clay) so maybe (I'm just putting it out there for consideration) they ARE SEEN?
Furthermore at present time I cannot find a verse in the Quran that states that the jinn are unseen. Please point it out to me if you can find one.

I thank you all for your help.

unknownuser

Peace arnaab

as I stated before

Jinn can be good and bad

the bad one is labeled Shaitan

it is nothing but a label to a bad Jinn, it can also be applied to a bad human, we use this commonly in the arab countries and to the extreme we can call a very bad human "Iblis"

regarding your query about not seeing them, here it is and clearly the label Shaitan, which means a bad Jinn was used to refer to "Iblis"

O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe.

(27)

Peace

unknownuser

Salaam Ahmed,

Jinn can be good and bad

Agreed Akhi

the bad one is labeled Shaitan

it is nothing but a label to a bad Jinn, it can also be applied to a bad human, we use this commonly in the arab countries and to the extreme we can call a very bad human "Iblis"

Please excuse my ignorance I have not seen a verse to support this yet.

regarding your query about not seeing them, here it is and clearly the label Shaitan, which means a bad Jinn was used to refer to "Iblis"

O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe.

Here is where the confusion begins I think. Lets walk through this....

234 (Maulana Ali) And when We said to the angels, Be submissive to Adam, they submitted, but Iblis (did not). He refused and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers.

Iblis refused to prostrate to Adam and later in the Quran we are told he was of the jinn

235 (Free-Minds) And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."

236 (Free-Minds) So, the devil (alshshaytanu in arabic) tricked them from it, and he brought them out from what they were in, and We said "Descend, you are enemies of one another. And in the land shall be stability for you and luxury for a while."

I have read where Iblis did not prostrate to adam.....and I have read where shaitan expelled adam and his wife from the garden....but not where Iblis and shaitan are the same entity. It seems to me (at this point in my studies) that they are two different entities.
Furthermore if you referre to the Torah

It was the serpent (Nachash in hebrew) that made the woman slip.
Bereishit 31
(hebrew) Vehanachash hayah arum mikol chayat hasadeh asher asah HASHEM Elokim vayomer el-ha'ishah af ki-amar Elokim lo tochelu mikol etz hagan.
The serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which HASHEM G-d made; and it said to the woman, "Did G-d even say that you should not eat from all the trees of the Garden?"

Bereishit 32
(hebrew) Vatomer ha'ishah el-hanachash mipri etz-hagan nochel.
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat from the fruit of the trees of the Garden.

Bereishit 34
(hebrew) Vayomer hanachash el-ha'ishah lo mot temutun.
The serpent said to the woman, "You certainly will not die.

Bereishit 313
(hebrew) Vayomer HASHEM Elokim la'ishah mah-zot asit vatomer ha'ishah hanachash hishi'ani va'ochel.
HASHEM G-d said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" She said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Bereishit 314
(hebrew) Vayomer HASHEM Elokim el-hanachash ki asita zot arur atah mikol-habehemah umikol chayat hasadeh al-gechonecha telech ve'afar tochal kol-yemei chayecha.
HASHEM G-d said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you from among all animals and beasts of the field. On your belly you shall crawl. And dust you shall eat all the days of your life.

I appreciate your thoughts....

Tay

May peace be upon you, Ahmed. )>-

Tay

Peace Arnaab,

You stated

lets get back to the topic and stop focusing on sarcasm and semantics

My apologies for letting the sidetrack get out of hand.

at present time I can't find any verse in the Quran that suggests we should read it as allegorical. Please provide verses if you can find any.

I believe the ayah you provided (37) is exactly what you're looking for. You'll notice there is no disclaimer, as in, some sort of red flag before all allegorical verses. Remember, Allah does not shy from using any allegory, no matter how small (226).

please explain to me how Iblis and Shaitan get confused as the same entity (in arabic....forget the english translations who call Iblis the devil and satan etc) I'm talking about the Arabic verses that referre to SHAITAN and the others that referre to IBLIS and how some Muslims consider them to be one entity.

Please provide the specific ayat you're referring to.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

May peace be upon you, Ahmed. >-

likewise mate

enjoy the new year, it is pouring in sydney now however it was 44 degress yesterday, a day from hell

peace

unknownuser

Salaam Ahmed,

Jinn can be good and bad

Agreed Akhi

the bad one is labeled Shaitan

it is nothing but a label to a bad Jinn, it can also be applied to a bad human, we use this commonly in the arab countries and to the extreme we can call a very bad human "Iblis"

Please excuse my ignorance I have not seen a verse to support this yet.

Peace bro, not sure what you after in a verse?, to say that Iblis is a Shaitan?, well it is very well established in arabic that Shaitan is a label and is not the name of any one

if you compare the verses of the story of Adam as read in many locations, you will see 100% that Iblis is a Shaitan

regarding your query about not seeing them, here it is and clearly the label Shaitan, which means a bad Jinn was used to refer to "Iblis"

O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe.

Here is where the confusion begins I think. Lets walk through this....

but you didn't respond to the verse you asked for regarding humans not being able to see the jinns?

234 (Maulana Ali) And when We said to the angels, Be submissive to Adam, they submitted, but Iblis (did not). He refused and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers.

Bro, sorry to side step, I strongly believe that to refer to a human as "Maulana" is shirk as this word was used explicitly in the Quran to refer to Allah

I would say "Shaihk" is more appropriate

The above is just my perosnal opinion

Iblis refused to prostrate to Adam and later in the Quran we are told he was of the jinn

of course he is one of the Jinns and because he is a very naughty one he earned the label "Shaitan"

235 (Free-Minds) And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."

236 (Free-Minds) So, the devil (alshshaytanu in arabic) tricked them from it, and he brought them out from what they were in, and We said "Descend, you are enemies of one another. And in the land shall be stability for you and luxury for a while."

that is the proof that Iblis = Shaitan, as read in 236

I have read where Iblis did not prostrate to adam.....and I have read where shaitan expelled adam and his wife from the garden....but not where Iblis and shaitan are the same entity. It seems to me (at this point in my studies) that they are two different entities.

sorry it can't

shaitan is a label for a bad jinn, and if you extract all the conext where Adam stopry was mentioned no one can get it wrong becaise it is clear 100% that Iblis was labeled Shaitan = a bad Jinn = a bad human as commonly known in the arab world

Furthermore if you referre to the Torah

It was the serpent (Nachash in hebrew) that made the woman slip.
Bereishit 31
(hebrew) Vehanachash hayah arum mikol chayat hasadeh asher asah HASHEM Elokim vayomer el-ha'ishah af ki-amar Elokim lo tochelu mikol etz hagan.
The serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which HASHEM G-d made; and it said to the woman, "Did G-d even say that you should not eat from all the trees of the Garden?"

Bereishit 32
(hebrew) Vatomer ha'ishah el-hanachash mipri etz-hagan nochel.
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat from the fruit of the trees of the Garden.

Bereishit 34
(hebrew) Vayomer hanachash el-ha'ishah lo mot temutun.
The serpent said to the woman, "You certainly will not die.

Bereishit 313
(hebrew) Vayomer HASHEM Elokim la'ishah mah-zot asit vatomer ha'ishah hanachash hishi'ani va'ochel.
HASHEM G-d said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" She said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Bereishit 314
(hebrew) Vayomer HASHEM Elokim el-hanachash ki asita zot arur atah mikol-habehemah umikol chayat hasadeh al-gechonecha telech ve'afar tochal kol-yemei chayecha.
HASHEM G-d said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you from among all animals and beasts of the field. On your belly you shall crawl. And dust you shall eat all the days of your life.

I appreciate your thoughts....

well, I do like the Torah and believe in many passages in it, but only the passages that will run in harmony with the Quran

I know that story of Adam in the Torah is slightly stretched hence I can not take it as a reference in here

however it is not releveant because what we are discussing is, if Iblis = Shaitan or not IN ARABIC,

To summarize my replys

Jinn can be bad and good
The bad ones are labeled Shaitan (commonly known and established in arabic that even make them call a bad human Shaitan and to the Very Bad ones they refer to them as Iblis"
The Quran never "explicitly" said Iblis = Shaitan, but because the story was repeated numerous times, it is clear as light from the many contexts that Iblis = Shaitan = Bad Jinn
The logic says from the story that it was Iblis who refused to prostrate then he got really mad and was filled was a massive amount of hatred to all humanity because we were the reason for him being cursed, therefore he started his mission straight away to fool humanity as he promised Allah and surely the story tells us that Iblis (shaitan) fooled our parents to cause their exit from the garden
the Quran does not need to say things that can be understood from the many repition as the Quran is for mature people not for Kidergarten kids whom we need to explain every thing to them as they sure have no idea to a degree that they can't answer 1 + 1 = 2
This method of context cross refrence is one of the miracles of the Quran, therefore it is sure for mature humans who can cross refrence

peace bro

unknownuser

Salaam,
I looked up the word "satan" in hebrew and it means adversary.
in arabic "satan" means roughly arrogant/disobediant.
So it makes sense that a shaitan is an adversary/arrogant/disobedient and a state of mind.
It also makes sense that some people referre to people or jinn as shaitan.
And if you look at the Torah and the verses on how the serpent made adam and his wife slip from the garden you realize that the serpent is referred to as a shaitan in the Quran.
But I still don't see that Iblis is in fact the serpent mentioned in the Torah and I can't conclusively say that just because we are told that Iblis did not submit to Adam that he is therefore the shaitan that made Adam and his wife fall from grace. Just because the verses are close together speaking of Iblis and shaitan...

234 (Maulana Ali) And when We said to the angels, Be submissive to Adam, they submitted, but Iblis (did not). He refused and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers.

and

236 (Free-Minds) So, the devil (alshshaytanu in arabic) tricked them from it, and he brought them out from what they were in, and We said "Descend, you are enemies of one another. And in the land shall be stability for you and luxury for a while."

Just because these two verses are close together I can't conclusively settle on the fact that Iblis is the shaitan that tricked Adam and his wife.

I'm trying hard to make sense of this. And I appreciate all of your responces.

if you compare the verses of the story of Adam as read in many locations, you will see 100% that Iblis is a Shaitan

I agree that Iblis is a shaitan.

but you didn't respond to the verse you asked for regarding humans not being able to see the jinns?

O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe.

Sorry I didn't address this because as far as I can tell right now.....that verse speaks of shaitans not jinn.

At this point I guess Iblis is a proper noun and shaitan is an adjective and the serpent is probably an allegorical description.
Another thought is Iblis is probably a shaitan.
But I don't know that the shaitan spoken of in 236 and 727 is Iblis.

unknownuser

Peace Arnaab

I?m not sure what you are after exactly?, and due to time restraint this will be my last comment to you regarding this subject.

I thought you want to know if Iblis is a "Shaitan" or not?, while the compelling evidences can be found in the story of Adam, it seems to me, this was not enough to you, hence I concluded that you want to be sure that the bad ones from the Jinns are called ?Shaitan? as you concede that Iblis is a "Jinn", it also seems to me that you don?t want to accept the testimony of a native Arabic speaker that "Shaitan" is a LABEL and is given to the bad ones within the Jinns and in the Ins (humans)

Well, let us hear the Quran talk again, in the following verse, Allah has used the label ?Shaiateen? to describe the bad ones in the Jinn and human race

?And thus did We make for every prophet an enemy, the Shaiteen from among men and jinn, some of them suggesting to others varnished falsehood to deceive (them), and had your Lord pleased they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge.?

(112)

-> Clear as light that the enemy of the prophets, were CALLED ? ?, ie. ? the Shaiteen from among men and jinn?

-> And because we know that ?Iblis? was the only ?Jinn? up there during Adam incident

-> And because it was referred to that ?Jinn? as ?Shaitan? in another location in the Quran talking about the same story

CONCLUSION

?Iblis? is a ?Jinn? and is labelled ?Shaitan? because he is a naughty Jinn, and Shaitan is a label given to the bad ones in the Human and Jinn races as per 6112

I rest my case

Peace be with you

unknownuser

Peace be upon yuo Ahmed,

Your argument above was that since the God did not call the hypocrites hypocrites, that it is not about hypocrites, yet I dont see any word for terrorist AT ALL. NO WHERE AT ALL. So what kind of reasoning are you using?

unknownuser

Peace be upon yuo Ahmed,

Your argument above was that since the God did not call the hypocrites hypocrites, that it is not about hypocrites, yet I dont see any word for terrorist AT ALL. NO WHERE AT ALL. So what kind of reasoning are you using?

Peace mate

Well they MUST SAY THEY BELIEVE IN ALLAH AND THE LAST DAY

They must cause mischief on earth

They are dumb deaf and blind

And when we tell them stop they say we are the good ones

Please tell me who else other than those?

At least the verses describe very sick so called believers and the Muslim terrorists like laden, zarqawi and the suicide bombers must fall under this category

So I will take it as such because it makes sense to me and I'm convinced

Thanks mate

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Well if you are convinced, then no need in me debating it.

I'm sorry you are convinced

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Well if you are convinced, then no need in me debating it.

I'm sorry you are convinced

No worries tahnk you bro

i was just wondering why you are sorry that I'm convinced?

i don't feel sorry for you that you are convinced with the metaphor thingy and all other strange things you promote, it is your freewill bro

peace be with you