Is Alcohol Forbidden?
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Hi all,
To summarise the faq's might be a good idea, but if new people want to clear their doubts by active discussions with exsisting members, why should that be discouraged? I understand this forum has exsisted for a long time now, so, every other topic would have been discussed, so to say. Does that mean people who want to discuss the issue further or want clarifications should shut up becoz its been discussed before? roll If people want to voice their views or understanding or doubts, Is it so wrong?
And who knows? new and better understanding on the subject may also evolve with further discussions on the same subject? why prevent it?
peace
if i'm not mistaken, i think the quran tells us to avoid intoxicants. and if alcohol is an intoxicant, we should avoid it. And maybe that it isn't "forbidden" means that we can take it in means that arent supposed to make us intoxicated. Like medication. that's my understanding from the limited knowledge i have.
I have the same understanding as of Phoenix1.
If Alcohol was strictly forbidden, staunch believers might object to it being used even for medicinal purposes. Even the disinfectant that is used to clean skin, before injections or surgery has alcohol content so to say. And alcohol is present in many other formulations and also is used in case of treatment of certain poisons.This reminds me of a similar problem where jews refuse blood transfusions no matter how important it is, to save one's life, coz they believe it goes against their religious teaching(Jehowah witness).
Peace!
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Peace all,
Q&A / FAQexcellent idea!
I only see this working in terms of pointing to the concerned threads. Another option would maybe give the answer as 'for' and 'against', as opposed to just a straight answer. Both would have to be backed up with evidence. As you can see from this thread alone that there are 2 totally 'opposing' answers. That happens very easily in almost every subject you can think of. Just take a walk around the board and see. ) Giving straight answers causes a problem here (unlike a sunni thread like askimam.com). Is anyone here willing to take that responsibility? Or will every answer be followed by "God knows best", to rid ourselves of the 'authority'? Doesn't this then constitute the creation of a sect?... as in, "we follow this way here at free-minds because we studied and we know".I thought it was interesting that some here were against with what Damon responded. It might have sounded a bit 'tough-lovish', but that's all it was. I would give the same advice to my younger brother or any person asking these questions. I used to ask these same questions when I was younger and I wish someone would have told me then what Damon was explaining to NP. Read quran for yourself, let GOD in your heart and let only HE guide you to the truth. Don't look for short-cuts. A book or a bunch of people who think they know are not going to help you any, today or on the day of judgement.
Peace be with you.
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The topic seemed to have been derailed. To answer the question, I think the following verse is prett clear
"They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say ?In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit.?
And they ask you how much are they to give, say ?The excess.? It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think. " 2219
So here we are asked to give up the excess. So being drunk would probably be excess.
In verse 590 we are told that we should avoid intoxicants because they are tool of affliction from the devil. However, keeping in mind 2219, I believe this verse is referring to intoxicating intoxicants, meaning ones that would actually make you intoxicated. So for example, certain dishes at certain restaurants are sauted or have have a little alchohol mixed into them. But in general that amount of alcohol isn't intoxicating, so, in my opinion, such a dish would not be haram because it does not violate 590 and still passes the restriction applied in 2219.
Hope that helps.
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Peace Damon,
More Importantly, you are mixing apples and oranges Layth. 802-5 illustrates how the Blind Man was ignored, frowned upon and rejected. That is not what I did with this young lady. I gave her advice which is what she made this thread for.....to get advice and feedback from other members here. As for 934-9, well I truly cannot see how that fits with any part of this discussion. No offense intended Bro.
I appologize for misunderstanding your stance...It is possibly the 'tone' more than the 'content' of your responce that triggered my responce.
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Hello
sorry Riz, the bit about the excess is the wrong translation, here is the verse in Arabic
(219)
" ", which means "and they ask you what they spend?, say What you can spare. "
it is clear from the verse that when they asked him about what they should spend, it was ANOTHER question to the first one about the alcohol
The verse started with " " which means "They ask you" and the question was about the "Khamr" and "Gambling" then we see another question raised by the arabic words " ", which means "and they ask you", and the second question was totally something else to first and it was what they should spend for the poor and needy
Also I believe "Khamr" must be translated as "Alcohol" or at least "Wine/Drink" because this is what it means in Arabic, and honestly this word "KHAMR" can never be used to represent all intoxicants , ONLY THE ALCOHOL BASED DRINABLE ONES
The reason is very simple and from the Quran, Allah is telling us that the garden will have RIVERS of Milk, RIVERS of Honey and RIVERS OF KHAMR
Now for an under average human, what flaws in a river must be in a liquid matter, therefore KHAMR MUST BE "the drikable Alcohol or Wine", here is the verses
?A parable of the garden which those guarding (against evil) are promised Therein are rivers of water that does not alter, and rivers of milk the taste whereof does not change, and rivers of drink delicious to those who drink, and rivers of honey clarified and for them therein are all fruits and protection from their Lord. (Are these) like those who abide in the fire and who are made to drink boiling water so it rends their bowels asunder?
(15)
According to 4715, we see the Khamr was described as follow
- in rivers
- delicious to the drinkers
THEREFORE KHAMR MUST BE LIQUID AND IT MEANS WHAT WE DRINK TO GET DRUNK
Peace
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Peace be with you Layth,
I appologize for misunderstanding your stance...It is possibly the 'tone' more than the 'content' of your responce that triggered my responce.
No need to apologize my brother. I can see where one may notice my tone above and beyond the content of my posts here. I believe that is the reason NP gave the reactions that she did...at least one of them anyway.
And as for that fella who calls himself Johnny_K, I don't take him seriously at all. Instead of posting that part of the thread at 19.org, post the entire thing so everyone here can see how your 19 and false verses argument was shut down and you and Bahman (So-Called Quran Aloners) pulled out the Hadith to support your case. I hope everyone here read that thread from beginning to end and judge for themselves.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace Zenje,
I thought it was interesting that some here were against with what Damon responded. It might have sounded a bit 'tough-lovish', but that's all it was
Yes, That's All It Was. Unfortunately, one cannot give straightforward answers here without some sort of backlash. And we can see in this thread how those backlashes can develop.
I would give the same advice to my younger brother or any person asking these questions. I used to ask these same questions when I was younger and I wish someone would have told me then what Damon was explaining to NP. Read quran for yourself, let GOD in your heart and let only HE guide you to the truth. Don't look for short-cuts. A book or a bunch of people who think they know are not going to help you any, today or on the day of judgement.
EXACTLY!! This is what I was trying to get NP to understand, especially the part underlined in bold. This is all I was trying to get her to realize. I made a mistake and misjudge the situation. Thank You bro for being able to look past the tough love and seeing what I was hoping to accomplish.
As far as the answer to the question about Khamr, I believe the best answer is one coming straight from the Quran. The Quran Clearly says that in it is Some benefit and Some harm and that the harm far outweighs the benefit!! There is another verse where it is said that is a tool used by The Shaytan to distract mankind from focusing on their devotion in this Deen.
This is what I would tell anyone who expresses an interest in Islam and The Quran and they ask meabout Khamr. I think it is very bad to tell a young person that the Quran does not forbid alcohol and just leave it at that. I must say that I am very disappointed with how alot of the older people and older members have handled her so far.
If I were to coninue to participate here in this discussion board I see that I would have to give it to people straight no chaser which seems to be frowned upon here. When you are serious about spreading the truth and letting people know about The Quran, there are times when you will have to be a little tough with certain people, because this is not a game. And I believe that if I were to sugar-coat things and not tell it like it should be told, and a person acts upon my lack of appropriate advice, then I would be held accountable for that.
I come back and see the same cliquish mentality where almost all members will come to the defense of another and they all go against one other member in particular. This was done when I lobbied to have Albion banned some time ago. I sat on the periphery and watch the shameful sagas unfold with Jaxal and Priest Bokmei. Neither of those situations had to go that far. They could've been nipped in the bud a long time ago.
I am sorry to say this, but far too many people here (not all) are not taking their duties seriously. Too many here are just looking for something to do in their spare-time and look for a debate just for the sake of debating. And when someone like me comes along and shows a little bit of necessary "Harshness" (when called for), I am considered bad news.
Oh well, that's life I guess. I am sure a guy like me has no place here. You guys can have it. And I imagine that I have more than warn out my welcome here.
Peace to you all!!
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Asalamu alaikum
From reading a few posts I must say you people (excuse the generalisation) have interesting views yet I don?t 100% agree with them not that you need my consent anyway I feel like people take things lightly? everyone, sorry most people are on the search to find out what is haram what is halal, we?re human so we?re born with curious minds but what we fail to realise is not everything is black and white?
And even when we know it is haram does it really stop people from doing it? So people say its mukrooh (hated, avoid if possible) so one knows it?s hated so why would one do it? to my belief labelling something ?haram? or ?halal? is a big statement. Why? because Allah swt gave us the laws, if it doesn?t say its haram or halal then what do we do? Start labelling things as haram or halal according to whatever logic we think? Personally I?d say no, but who am I? Nobody. I?m just a person with an opinion like every body else. The law is given I don?t want to be accountable for adding or subtracting or saying something wrong about the already given.
Society does influence peoples mind even desires. I mean ?it? being socially accepted makes one wonder so what?s so bad about such and such in this case alcohol. I think the questions everyone should ask themselves before asking is this haram or is this halal is Will ?this thing? benefit me? Will it bring good to me or will it bring bad to me? If it does bad, I should abandon it, if it brings good then all hands up, if it?s the middle way it?s not needed?.
My opinion, from reading verses 590 and 591 alkhamar (intoxicants be it alcohol or any other substance) is something of shaitans work (so basically it?s promoted by shaitan) and it holds one back from the remembrance of Allah swt.
So from those verses my understanding is that it wouldn?t be something that would please Allah or help me for my purpose so I see it as bringing no good so I wouldn?t even sniff it. That?s my opinion.
Anyway sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn?t my intention I just felt like putting my 2cents worth. May Allah swt guide us to do good.
Asalamu alaikum
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peace Damon, all,
I am sure a guy like me has no place here. You guys can have it. And I imagine that I have more than warn out my welcome here.
No offence Damon, but stop talking rubbish! You are most definitely welcome.
Hows that for tough love? wink
Wakas
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Salam "Damon",
And as for that fella who calls himself Johnny_K, I don't take him seriously at all. Instead of posting that part of the thread at 19.org, post the entire thing so everyone here can see how your 19 and false verses argument was shut down and you and Bahman (So-Called Quran Aloners) pulled out the Hadith to support your case. I hope everyone here read that thread from beginning to end and judge for themselves.
Salaam,
Damon.JK- Oh so you dont take me seriously? Neither do i take you seriously fella. You were judging by available manuscripts, Damon. You said the oldest AVAILABLE contained 9128&129 so they must be correct. This however cannot be considered proof. WE DO NOT HAVE MANUSCRIPTS DATING BACK TO THE TIME OF THE PROPHET. You have to bring archeological evidence for that if your claim is to be true but you cant. Thus all we can rely on is to apply code-19 on the avaliable manuscripts. Btw if you dont take me seriously in this regard, this means you also dont take bro Edip Yuksel seriously. From 19.org's posts it seemed to me though that you two were getting along well with each other. Strange because i share 95% of Edip's views and 99.99% regarding code-19 in Quran. We both believe in it and that 9128&129 are not part of the Quran. I urge you, if you have not already, to CAREFULLY read bro Edip's latest article "Intelligent peoples guide to code-19" at http//19.org/?books
GOD Bless! -
Hello
sorry Riz, the bit about the excess is the wrong translation
Hey. Thanks for pointing that out. I read that wrong translation in the older version of The Message translation of the Quran or I guess I just understood it wrong. However, I just checked a bunch of other translations on Yaqb and you are right.
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Peace Damon,
Oh well, that's life I guess. I am sure a guy like me has no place here. You guys can have it. And I imagine that I have more than warn out my welcome here.
Hey bro, pleeeeeeeease don't go. We miss you around here and this place needs your input. there
If you go, then I'm gonna stick a pin in my eye.Peace,
Tay -
If I am committing a sin just because I drink alcohol..than hell I am gonna put up a fight with my creator..D may be I will drive Him/It nuts and have a toast at the end..d hehehe After all we are friends..)
shanti/peace
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my post got deleted and can't be bothered typing it again but here's the summary for sarah
- Nobody takes anything lightly here ... haven;t you seen all the fights.
- Out of a 1000+ registered members only a few are regular posters so you aint getting the full picture.
- there are many here on the same wavelength as you, and as it happens I agree with you on this issue.
Asalamu alaikum
Anyway sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn?t my intention I just felt like putting my 2cents worth. May Allah swt guide us to do good.
Asalamu alaikum
don't worry I do it all the time.
Don't be afraid to post you point of view.
peace.
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Yes burhan_21 I seen the fights. What I meant was people take "practising" lightly, from what I've seen.. well thats the picture I get anyway. I guess I'm not getting the full picture ) I need to read more into things.
Well im glade you agree ) thanks for the commentsAsalamu alaikum
