Where Was Mohammed?
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Peace "mquran".
How do you know this "Ibn Abdullah must have experienced the ayaat concerning Muhammad"? From hadithist history/Sirah?
Anwar Azim
PS It is "Anwar" not "Anwarul".Anwarul Simply put, "ibn abdullah" is not part of "Muhammad in the ayat".
I woudln't even say that. Ibn Abdullah must have experienced the ayaat concerning Muhammad but he has now left the stage, as it were. Now, we must have a living person living a living ayat.
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Mehdi this statement appears to come from a point of view which in it's opposition of traditionalism...
Appearances can be decieving.
has gone to the same extent in being extreme
Define please what 'extreme' is and what al-quraan says about it.
learning the life of even one's own grand parents, a certain teacher, or etc.. can have lasting benefits for any individual... to say "nothing he did beyond al-quraan" is a bit of a extremist point of view it seems....
'nothing he did beyond al-quraan' isnt even a coherent sentence. Do quote in context nothing he did beyond al-quraan has any lasting benefit for humanity
And I stand by this statement. What is 'lasting benefit to humanity' is al-haqq (see 13/17). Al-haqq comes from al-haqq Himself, Allah. Ibn Abdullah was a human being and anything he did beyond al-haqq cannot be al-haqq.
also please post what in your opionon is the 'certain role' of Rasulullah ...
An example would be 33/21, to be an 'uswatun hasanah'.
Anwar How do you know this "Ibn Abdullah must have experienced the ayaat concerning Muhammad"? From hadithist history/Sirah?
If you match Ibn Abdullah to the role of the reciever of al-quraan, then the ayat must match the role.
PS It is "Anwar" not "Anwarul".
My apologies. Are you the same Anwar from Rope list, years ago?
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Peace "mquran",
Anwar How do you know this "Ibn Abdullah must have experienced the ayaat concerning Muhammad"? From hadithist history/Sirah?
If you match Ibn Abdullah to the role of the reciever of al-quraan, then the ayat must match the role.
Could you give an example? The narrations about Ibn Abdullah are very confusing. If you do give an example, according to whom?
PS It is "Anwar" not "Anwarul".
My apologies. Are you the same Anwar from Rope list, years ago?
No need for apologies. ) Yes, I was in Rope list but I don't know if I was the only one "Anwar". Anyway, I changed my name couple of years ago. Now as you can see, it is very short.
Anwar Azim
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I guess the statemnet by Mquran, to have a live person living the Quran representing the Rasool is not much different from the Sunni who take the dead Rasool as an Idol,
Peace
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I guess the statemnet by Mquran, to have a live person living the Quran representing the Rasool is not much different from the Sunni who take the dead Rasool as an Idol,
You guessed wrong. Ar-rasool when he actualises in the world
- commands by al-quraan (69/40)
- judges by al-quraan (5/4
So unless you're saying that the sahaba of Muhammad ibn Abdullah were musyrikeen themselves (because they had a 'live' messenger too), its false to connect having a living ar-rasool with taking ar-rasool as an idol. There's no need to idolise any rasool. We're simply to obey, follow and emulate him.
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I guess the statemnet by Mquran, to have a live person living the Quran representing the Rasool is not much different from the Sunni who take the dead Rasool as an Idol,
You guessed wrong. Ar-rasool when he actualises in the world
- commands by al-quraan (69/40)
- judges by al-quraan (5/4
So unless you're saying that the sahaba of Muhammad ibn Abdullah were musyrikeen themselves (because they had a 'live' messenger too), its false to connect having a living ar-rasool with taking ar-rasool as an idol. There's no need to idolise any rasool. We're simply to obey, follow and emulate him.
then what is wrong with following and emulating a dead man then?
see, the more into idolising are those who want a live man to follow and emulate, therefore the sunni are less idolising than those who want a rasool to follow and emulate now
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then what is wrong with following and emulating a dead man then?
Al-quraan speaks of going into battle, with ar-rasool in the lead. It's a bit impossible given his corpse is in madeenah. Oops, I forgot. For you that's history, never to happen again.
see, the more into idolising are those who want a live man to follow and emulate, therefore the sunni are less idolising than those who want a rasool to follow and emulate now
Please give me evidence for this. That its IDOLATRY to expect a living ar-rasool. I take it al-quraan is still your criteria?
On the other hand, al-quraan says
And to you there came Joseph in times gone by, with Clear Signs, but ye ceased not to doubt of the (Mission) for which he had come At length, when he died, ye said 'No apostle will God send after him.' thus doth God leave to stray such as transgress and live in doubt (40/34)
So it seems al-quraan contradicts your criteria here. No worries though, you could just say this ayat is history and it has no living application. That's your usual get-out clause anyway.
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My name is Neil. I used to be active in this forum and others like it a few years ago. I'm glad to be back and I hope a can make a worthy contribution to the discussions. AL-QURAN is still AL-FURQAN/the criterion for me.
After reading the article 'Where was Muhammad?' it got me to thinking about the Pilgrimages of the Jews.
These pilgrimages were called HAG/hajj meaning pilgrimmage or festival. There were 3 HAG each year to the Temple of God/BAYT Allah in Jerusalem. The 'holy of holies' of this Temple was said to be situated over maqom avraham/MAQAM IBRAHEEM which has been called the KABAH in the article.
Here is some more interesting info I found in Jewish sources;
http//www.everythingjewish.com/Shavuot/origins.htm
The Jewish philosopher, Philo, (c.20 B.C.E.-c 50 C.E.) who lived in Alexandria, and Flavius Josephus, (c.38 C.E.-c. 100C.E.) the Roman Jewish historian, wrote about the Jewish pilgrimages to Jerusalem. Philo wrote that multitudes of Jews from countless cities converged on the temple at each festival. Some came by land and others by sea, from east, west, north and south.
Babylonia, which probably had the biggest Jewish population outside Israel, supplied the largest flow of pilgrims. Pilgrims traveled in caravans, setting off from towns inside and out of Israel. Obviously, not every Jew was able to travel to Jerusalem three times a year, so groups of district representatives known as the Ma?amad were organized.
The Mishnah, in Tractate Bikkurim, paints a lively picture of what it was like to travel to the Temple for the holiday of Shavuot.
At the rise of morning an official says ?Rise and let us go up to Zion to the House of the Lord our G-d.? An ox walked before them, its horns covered in gold, and with an olive crown in its head. The challil, (flute) was played before them until they reached the vicinity of Jerusalem. Upon coming close to Jerusalem, they sent word ahead and decorated their bikkurim (offering). The important officials went out to meet them? and all the tradesmen in Jerusalem stood before them and greeted them ?Our brothers, the men of such and such a place, you have come in peace.?
The flute was played before them till they reached the Temple Mount. Even King Agripas took the basket on his shoulders and carried it until he reached the courtyard. When the pilgrims reached the courtyard, the Levites sang ?I will exalt You, O G-d, for You have saved me and You have not rejoiced my enemies before me.?
The Torah refers to Shavuot as Hag ha-katzir, (Exodus 2314-19) the feast of the harvest, as Hag Hashavuot, the festival of weeks, and as Yom ha-bikurim, (Leviticus 239-22) the day of first fruits, when farmers brought their produce to the Temple as an offering.
Shavuot is the second of the shalosh regalim, the three annual pilgrimage holidays of Pesach, Shavuot, and Sukkot, when Jews from all over Israel and beyond converged onto Jerusalem to celebrate and bring temple offerings.
The Torah commands that Shavuot be celebrated exactly seven weeks after the second day of Pesach, the day of the first Omer, the early barley harvest offering. This explains the name Shavuot ? Hebrew for weeks, or as it?s known in Greek, Pentecost, meaning fiftieth day.
?You shall count off seven weeks; start to count the seven weeks when the sickle is first put to the standing grain. Then you shall observe the Feast of Weeks for the Lord your G-d, offering your free will contribution according as the Lord your G-d has blessed you?
Kabbalists saw in the number seven the concept of the sefirot, the spiritual spheres that surround the heavens and G-d. The number 49 is also symbolic of the 49 gates of impurity from which the ancient Israelites were released as they left the land of Egypt.
According to a very old tradition, the period between Pesach and Shavuot is also a season of mourning. Marriages are not performed, hair is not cut and live music is not played or heard. The reasons for this are not entirely clear.
One tradition suggests that since this period was preparatory to receiving the Torah, these days were set aside for serious reflection and study. Therefore, frivolous activities were put on hold.
The most widely accepted explanation is that a mysterious plague cost the lives of many of Rabbi Akiva?s students during the Roman period. On the thirty-third day of the Omer, the mysterious plague stopped. This is why Lag Ba?Omer, the thirty-third day of the Omer, is observed as a special, though minor Jewish holiday, when marriages, haircuts and live music are permitted.The things that sound similar to what is in the Quran are
Ma'amad, decoration of offerings(necklaces), pilgrims come to the House of God rijaalan(2227)/regalim, restrictions on haircuts and frivilous activities
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Salam Neil,
It is always good to hear from old friends and pioneers of this site and the overall movement back to God Alone )
When I was researching for this article, I noticed '3 pilgrimages a year' to Jerusalem...Although there is no reference made between this information and the issue of Where Was Mohammed, you will find that the article on Hajj does come to the same conclusion independantly that the Hajj is to be held 3 times per year.
The Hajj is mentioned as being 'in the marked/known months' and hence are clearly not a single event per year.
Here is an excerpt from the article
- The timing of the Pilgrimage is the first 3-days of the last three restricted months (i.e. 3 Pilgrimages can be held each year).
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/hajj.htm
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Peace be upon you brother,
How long ago it seems when you first brought this idea up. There was the Hajj Yahoo group. There was a lot of interesting stuff posted there. Can you remember the exact name of it?
OK.. so if we have 4 al-haram months, then we have 3 pilgrimage months for 3 different pilgrimages and 1 fasting month. We can see in the Quran that the actual pilgrimage itself lasts for a limited amount of days. What would be the need to have four sacred months for that amount of time, if not for three seperate pilgrimages in three of those months?
With this understanding the amount of time Moses was working for the father of his bride would amount to just under 3 years (2827). That seems more reasonable then 8 or 10 years work.
Seeing that Moses was living in agriculatural environment at that time and the hag/hajj were agriculatural festivals.... the hags are intimately connected with harvest time......Moses was saying...I will work for you ...this many harvests
With this understanding is it possible that YAWM ALHAJJ ALAKBAR(93) in fact means the time of the greatest Hajj ie. the greatest of the three hajj.
In biblical times, Sukkot was considered to be the most important festival. It was actually referred to as ha-chag, the festival, (Kings 1232). King Solomon chose Sukkot as the holiday during which he consecrated the first temple. It was also the occasion every seven years for the ceremony hak'heil, the public reading of the Torah before the whole people (Deuteronomy 3110-13). Sukkot is also said to be the festival of the future, when in the messianic period, all nations will come to Jerusalem and celebrate.
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Peace Layth,
I was reading your Hajj article again and I would like to suggest that Arafat is the Mount of Olives located east of the location of the Bayt. The Bayt on Mount Moriah(Marwah) is in fact about 90metres lower than the Mount of Olives. The Mount of Olives is also not just one mountain but a series of peaks in a range.
http//www.beitorot.org/olives.htm
The name "Mount of Olives" really describes the whole mountain range running from north to south directly east of the "Old City" of Jerusalem, including what are today called Mount Scopus, the Mount of Olives, and Har HaMoshcha or the Hill of Evil Counsel.
The names Har HaZaytim (Mt. Of Olives) and Har HaMoshcha (Mount of Anointing) come from the many olive trees which flourished all over the mountain range. Their precious oil was used to anoint kings and in the Temple service. The term Har HaMoshchit (destroying mountain) is mentioned in Jeremiah 5125, in reference to Babylon, but was also used as a derogatory application for Har HaMoshcha, which sounds very much alike, as a play on words.
In general, during the First and Second Temple periods, the city of Jerusalem was situated on the two hills to the south and west of the Temple Mount, (Mount Zion and the City of David), while the surrounding hills and valleys, including of course the Mount of Olives range, were used for agriculture and as burial grounds.
Of all the hills in the Jerusalem area, the Mt. Of Olives is the tallest - about 830 meters high at its peak, 40 meters higher than the mountain range on which what are today known as Mt. Zion and the "Old City" are situated. However, it is almost 90 meters higher than the peak of Har HaMoriah, the Temple Mount, site of the Dome of the Rock, which lies directly to its west. To its east lie the town of Ma'aleh Adumim and the Jordan Valley. The Jerusalem-Jericho road also winds around the mountainside. From the top, one has a panoramic view of the old and new cities of Jerusalem on the west, and the Judean Desert on the east - a vivid illustration of the verse, "Jerusalem - Mountains surround it, and the L-rd surround His people from now until eternity." Psalms 1252 Separating Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives are the Valley of Jehoshaphat and the Kidron Valley. The latter turns east around the southern border of the mount and continues all the way on to the Dead Sea.
During both Temple periods, the preparation of the ashes of the Red Heifer, to be used in the Temple for purification, was performed on the Mount of Olives. Numbers 192-19 Talmudic sources indicate that during the time of The Second Temple, the Har Ha Beit and the Mt. Of Olives were actually connected by a bridge, and the rituals relating to the Para Adumah (red heifer), whose ashes were essential to the Mikveh purification process for the services at the Beit Hamikdash, were performed on Har HaZaytim. Shortly before the destruction of the First Temple, the Shechina (Divine Presence) "left" the Temple itself and hovered over the Mount of Olives for 3 1/2 years waiting for the People of Israel to repent, before ascending to the heavens. Ezekiel 1123, Eicha Raba Petichta 23 (According to Talmudic tradition the Shechina departed from the Beit Hamikdash in ten stages. First the Shechina departed the Temple Mount, then the Holy City and the tenth and last resting-place was on Har HaZaytim. There, according to the tradition, the Shechina waited, in the hope that the Jewish People would repent of their sins. But when they did not repent, the Shechina eventually left this world, ascending to Heaven from a spot on the Mt. Of Olives which was called "the footstool of G-d". One tradition says that the Prophet Yechezkel will sound the shofar on Har HaZaytim to announce the beginning of the resurrection. According to the Prophet Zecharya, at the end of days, when the Jews are redeemed by the coming of the Messiah, the Mt. Of Olives will once more serve as "the footstool of G-d" and be the site from which the Shechina returns to the Temple Mount.) The Divine Presence, of course, returned to Mount Moriah when the Second Temple was built, and even upon the Temple's destruction, "the Divine Presence has never left the Western Wall."
During the Second Temple period, the Mount of Olives was the first in the chain of mountains throughout Israel upon which bonfires were lit every Rosh Chodesh (New Month), to announce the beginning of a new month. (The Jewish month begins with the new moon. In its original form, Rosh Chodesh, officially announced the first day of each new month by the Sanhedrin (the Supreme Rabbinic Court), in Jerusalem.) To enable Jewish communities throughout Israel and Babylonia to know exactly when the month had begun, bonfires were lit on high mountains, from the Mount of Olives up to Sartaba - in Samaria, near the Jordan Valley, from there up to Grophina - in lower Galilee, and so on until Babylonia. See Mishna Rosh Hashana 24
The calendar of Al-Quran is according to new moons(2189), not crescents.
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I would like to mention that the site of the pagan temple at Mamre near Hebron should be a point of interest in regard to the "Where was Muhammad" question. It may also be the qibla turned to after Jerusalem. The pilgrimage to Jerusalem was well known but to my knowledge was not associated with pagan idolatry.
The cultic shrine at Mamre was known as a site of pagan worship, annual pilgrimage and as a caravan station with a busy marketplace. It was also known as the predominant pilgrimage site of the Arabs in that region. Had Muhammad cleansed a temple of idols, it would likely have been the temple at Mamre. Ibrahim is closely affiliated with this area and the Qur'an makes it clear that Ibrahim's example and Ibrahim's religion set the foundation for Muhammad.
This also fits reports that in the early 8th century (around 705 CE) the qibla direction was near or slightly south of the 32 degree parallel. It does then seem possible that Jerusalem was the first qibla and Mamre the second.
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I would like to mention that the site of the pagan temple at Mamre near Hebron should be a point of interest in regard to the "Where was Muhammad" question. It may also be the qibla turned to after Jerusalem. The pilgrimage to Jerusalem was well known but to my knowledge was not associated with pagan idolatry.
The cultic shrine at Mamre was known as a site of pagan worship, annual pilgrimage and as a caravan station with a busy marketplace. It was also known as the predominant pilgrimage site of the Arabs in that region. Had Muhammad cleansed a temple of idols, it would likely have been the temple at Mamre. Ibrahim is closely affiliated with this area and the Qur'an makes it clear that Ibrahim's example and Ibrahim's religion set the foundation for Muhammad.
This also fits reports that in the early 8th century (around 705 CE) the qibla direction was near or slightly south of the 32 degree parallel. It does then seem possible that Jerusalem was the first qibla and Mamre the second.
You mean this one eat
Although Hebron?s elevation is 3,300 feet above sea level, it is situated in a well-watered valley. Its fertile soil supports the production of apples, plums, figs, nut trees, grapes, melons, and various vegetables.
http//www.ancientsandals.com/overviews/hebron.htm -
Uh-oh! What does that hungry little creature mean?
Hebron and Mamre are not the same site but are close to one another. The picture shown above is the The Tomb of the Patriarchs where Ibrahim is said to be buried. It is not the cultic shrine of Mamre. Are you trying to make the uncultivated valley point?
If so, the area of Mamre was used for pasturing flocks, such as sheep but to my knowledge was not a cultivated valley.
Mamre was known also as Botnah. Due to the pagan idolatrous nature of the rituals at the fair, Jews were forbidden to participate by their rabbis. Now since Muslims had Jewish converts among their community, this also gives a clue why the cultic shrine of Mamre/Botnah may have been referred to as 'the restricted house." Just sayin'
