Lets stop bashing people
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Peace be upon you all.
I have been a member of this website for sometime. I have seen people come and go. Have learnt much and pray that this forum stays alive for a long time.
I feel that we as a community have come a long way, however we need to leave one major thing behind. When I re-read some of the articles on the website main, there is so much criticism of sunnism that I can see it would turn a sunni away rather than allow them to constructively see the truth. That anger, will over-rule common sense and intelligence in most people, especially those who are lost.
We need to have a concerted effort and I am willing to lend my services to rewrite some of the articles to remove sunni-bashing, improve spelling and grammar too (as some of the articles were written by people whose main language is not english).
We must not and cannot allow ourselves to stoop to this lowliness.
Lets all work together to achieve a brighter and stronger future.
Please email me articles directly and I will do my best to work them.
(sorry if I sound like I am ranting)
d -
Peace Darcus,
I agree 100% - not just with the articles, but with dialogue between members. We must keep in mind that thoughts and words are energy, and negative thoughts/words produce negative energy, no matter how well it is justified.
I can also lend a hand in editing and corrections if need be.
Let me know.Peace,
Tay -
Peace be upon you,
Well said, I agree that we have to be GENTLE, as we are instructed, in our approach. We will get no where if we atttack and cause other to be on guard. We need them to be RECEPTIVE, and that is done GENTLY
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Peace,
The idea sounds wonderful.
Why don't you begin by idnetifying which article(s) bothered you the most and then take it from there,
Peace.
Your front page for starts?
What is Difference between Islam and Sunni or Shia faiths?
What about the 1.2Billion people who already know about Islam?.
Well, the bad news for them is that what they know and what they practice is not Islam, but is a different religion which goes by the name of Sunni, Shia, or any other derivative name..
How many points of view are claiming to be the ?True Islam??
While you want to point out the difference in Islam through God Alone and Traditionalist Islam, it could be put in a less ?Those guys are evil Idol worshipers kinda? way?.
Take a moment to point out the similarities to build familiarity (comfort) and then transition into the differences.
This is not how you do it
But be warned that by simply turning away without verifying what has been said here can bring the gravest of consequences
This sounds just like the Traditional Muslims claiming to know what The God will do to you. ?If you don?t fallow what we say you are going to hell?!
Instead try
But be warned, while only Allah* knows the fait of an individual, by simply turning away without verifying what has been said here can bring the gravest of consequences
It softens your point without compromising it.
*And yes, use the name Allah from time to time. It also develops familiarity for those in transition.
Cheers,
Tim
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Peace all. I agree with the comments of darcus and others,we should try to be respectful when in dialogue with people. Also if we are receptive/humble we could learn something from other people,rather than just trying to justify/defend our view-points. I feel it is too easy to label people as 'quran only',sunni,god-alone etc. It is too easy to condemn someone or a group of people when they have a different viewpoint. (Could this be a weakness in our own understanding?) Why not try to understand the other point of view,or are we saying the quran or certain groups have a monopoly on the truth? Sometimes in our haste we listen to what we think the person is saying,not what is actually meant by the persons speech,and so react incorrectly without further clarification.We should try not to have a knee-jerk reaction to people who understand things differently.('one mans meat is another mans poison') . I suggest we should be strong enough to say we dont know everything,but we can learn more if we accept that knowledge comes from many sources.(including those we disagree with or dont yet understand.)
Peace. -
Peace be upon you all,
I just wanted to add a comment, even though we are to be gentle in our approach, we STILL do not want to beat around the bush. We are not sugar coating the truth, but just making sure we choose the best method of delivery, one which does not force others to be immediately defensive.
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Peace idol-free and all. I would also add that in delivering a message we should be receptive to the possibility that we have mis-understood the 'truth' or that we may be corrected by the one we are delivering the message to. We shouldnt assume we are always right or that our understanding is the only one. Truth can have many angles/dimensions to it. We can discuss with a view to greater understanding and further contribution to knowledge,rather than a 'static', 'One view/angle fits all' understanding.
Peace. -
Peace be upon you Enquirer,
Please give an example of the following statement,
Truth can have many angles/dimensions to it.
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Peace idol-free. If three people taste a food,one can say 'its delicious',one can say it was' not bad',the third can say' it gave me food-poisoning'. They all agree it was food,but differed in their view/angle' of whether the food was good. Hence Different angles of the truth.
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Peace be upon you Enquirer,
If three people taste a food,one can say 'its delicious',one can say it was' not bad',the third can say' it gave me food-poisoning'. They all agree it was food,but differed in their view/angle' of whether the food was good. Hence Different angles of the truth.
The error you are making is associating "Truth" with subjectivity. Truth is verifyable, therefore objective. Even in your example the criteria is not consistent as the first two responses are subjective, the third is objective and would have had to rely on other factors assumig they all ate the same exact food.
This is why there is so much debate in the world, people are debating from a subjective persective which can NEVER be proven. We can argue all day about the temperature being hot or cold, but if we both go to the thermometer and it says 50 degrees, the argument stops there.
That is the reason we are to verify all things and not go after that which we have no knowledge.
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Peace. Even if we use the example of a temperature scale,10 degrees celsius may be cold to me but warm to an eskimo. So we have the same 'objective truth' (a measurement) and a subjective angle on the 'truth.(is it hot or cold) Are things not relative to the one who is viewing. Or can somebody tell me a food that everybody will like. (with no possibility for saying 'i dont like that food'.)
Life and death are 'truths,but nobody can say they understand every angle/dimension of life and death. If you view the earth from a helicopter you can see a 'true' view of it,while from your window you also have a 'true view' of it. Is one wrong and the other right? Can this view be further enhanced by a view from space? Do we ever stop discovering new angles to look at things? When does knowledge stop? Are there always 'new theories' to evaluate? Do we ever stop learning? Are we prepared to analyse things as they should be or according to our own 'objective' standards?What is truth? Is truth universal? Whos' truth?
food for thought.
Peace. -
Peace idol-free. Who invents the temperature scale? Who decides if the scale is objective. Can there be a better way of measuring?
( by the way In my example the food was the same food.)
If somebody says 'I enjoyed myself' are you suggesting this is 'subjective' and so cannot be verified,and thus this is not a truth?
Peace. -
Peace. If the thermometer says 50 degrees,it is still subjective relative to the scale. Is 51 degrees hot or cold? And who says it is? I suggest subjective+objective=a view of the truth.( which can be correct or incorrect.) Can you 'objectively' tell me if i will like,or do like a person? or is there still an element of 'subjectivity'? Can you tell me anything which is 100% objective or subjective?
Peace. -
Peace. Can we verify the number 'infinity'? Has anyone ever 'objectively' seen it? However people can verify the number 'infinity' because however high a number we can think of,there is always a bigger number.
If i have offended anyone,i am sorry.
Let us try to respect each other,and try to learn from ourself and others in a humble spirit. I believe we all have an 'aspect' of the truth to contribute.
Peace all. -
We are not sugar coating the truth, but just making sure we choose the best method of delivery, one which does not force others to be immediately defensive.
That's what I was thinking about. 'Sweetening the deal' so as to lure people in. Kind of like bait. The reason I wanted to learn the truth, and follow God alone, other than questioning and doubting myself, was the fact that I read articles like these that blew me away and set me straight. Look at the language of the quran, there is no sugar-coating, just truth, like it or leave it, your choice. This doesn't mean that when one is talking or introducing the message to God alone, that they be rude or forceful.It seems to be the thinking here that, someone could find the site, read an article or two, find it offensive and leave. Is this the problem? Does this website or board claim to BE the truth? Does it even claim to guide people? ?
- You cannot guide whom you love. But it is God who guides whom He wills; and He is fully aware of those who receive the guidance.
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Peace be upon you Enquirer,
I will combine all three posts in my response.
Peace. Even if we use the example of a temperature scale,10 degrees celsius may be cold to me but warm to an eskimo.
Correct, that is subjective, so you will argue about it until you die becaus there is no proving the subjective.
So we have the same 'objective truth' (a measurement) and a subjective angle on the 'truth.(is it hot or cold)
Correct, but what do you need the subjective angle for? It does not change the "Truth", that it is 10 degrees celsius, does it?
Are things not relative to the one who is viewing.
Are you saying that someone could look at a thermometer that says 10 degrees celsius and see something other than that? How so?
Or can somebody tell me a food that everybody will like. (with no possibility for saying 'i dont like that food'.)
Who said there was a food that everyone will like? I dont understand how this fits in with our discussion of truth being objective. "Liking" and "disliking" something is based on sensualism, it is to be overcome, transcended. If not, people who really "like" cake and ice cream will be slaves to thier "likes" and become unhealthy and possibly die.
Life and death are 'truths,but nobody can say they understand every angle/dimension of life and death.
Again, you are agreeing that life and death is the OBJECTIVE TRUTH, then you go on to discuss the subjective issues. Why?
If you view the earth from a helicopter you can see a 'true' view of it,while from your window you also have a 'true view' of it. Is one wrong and the other right?
Of course not. If someone looks at a thermometer out there window, or from a helicopter with a telescope, it will still read 10 degrees celsius (according to the above example). So there is no disagreement.
Can this view be further enhanced by a view from space?
From space, I assume we will be using a powerful satellite, the thermometer will still read 10 degrees.
Do we ever stop discovering new angles to look at things?
Doesnt matter, all angles will read 10 degrees.
When does knowledge stop?
The question should be when dowes guessing stop, and the answer is when we have reached KNOWLEGDE. That is the verifyable level we are trying to get to.
Are there always 'new theories' to evaluate?
Sure, and the path is the same, we have to study until we get to the verifyable truth, just like "Koran" we must verify and look to see if there are any contradictions.
Do we ever stop learning?
No.
Are we prepared to analyse things as they should be or according to our own 'objective' standards?
What do you mean by "own objective standards"? A thermometer that reads 10 degrees will read 10 degrees for everyone, it does not vary from person to person.
What is truth?
Truth deals with relationships of one thing to the other that can be objectively verified.
Is truth universal?
Absolutely
Whos' truth?
What do you mean? There are not seperate "truths", the thermometer reads 10 degrees for all of mankind. All they can argue about is FEELINGS, which are subjective.
Who invents the temperature scale?
I don know who invented it.
Who decides if the scale is objective.
Whoever did the testing on it, I dont have the actual name of the person.
Can there be a better way of measuring?
"Better"? That would be subjective.
( by the way In my example the food was the same food.)
If somebody says 'I enjoyed myself' are you suggesting this is 'subjective' and so cannot be verified,and thus this is not a truth?Again, you are confusing facts with Truth(relationship based). It might be a fact that "I enjoyed myself", but it is subjective because someone else might not have enjoyed themselves at the same event, or even better, you might attend the same event again and not enjoy yourself. Just like you might have "hated" spinach when you were little but now you "enjoy" it. You see that? There is no "truth" to likeing or disliking spinach.
If the thermometer says 50 degrees,it is still subjective relative to the scale.
I dont understand what you mean, please elaborate.
Is 51 degrees hot or cold?
Both. Therefore we could argue all day about that, but 51 degrees, the argument ends.
And who says it is?
Huh? Are you trying to do the bugs bunny reverse argument trick on me?? D
Thats is my argument, hot and cold is subjective, we do not go after the subjective. The subjective is like the water flowing in a sea, unstable, so we need to make a dry, stable path in order to get across, or construct a firm stable boat on which to ride across.
I suggest subjective+objective=a view of the truth.( which can be correct or incorrect.) Can you 'objectively' tell me if i will like,or do like a person?
NO, and I could care less about liking or disliking a person. I am interested in RELATIONSHIPS. If there is a person who needs charity, then me liking or disliking a person must be transcended. Liking and disliking is part of your EMOTIONAL nature which we must transcend. We cant be led by emotion.
Can you tell me anything which is 100% objective or subjective?
100% objective - 2 hydrogens and 1 oxygen gives you water.
100% subjective - Pig feet are delicious
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Peace idol-free and all. When people at large thought the earth was flat im sure they verified this(with whatever method) by what they thought was objective. When new knowledge(a different angle) came to them they had to modify there opinion and say the earth was not flat.(again objectively) Now are we saying that the earth is completely curved?(objectively) or will we be proved incorrect by a discovery that the earth is curved but slightly flattened at both poles.(which some say it is) My point is the objective is only relative to a persons current knowledge and so has a degree of subjectivity to it. By the way 2 hydrogens plus two oxygens also equals water.(its an isotope of h2o called heavy water) So our objective analysis of water has a degree of subjectivety. Maybe we will discover more variations of water,thus further negating the h20 being the only water compound. I believe an individual not being able to verify something does not mean it is necessarily untrue or not valid.
I am trying to post as food for thought,and to help improve knowledge, not to threaten anyones beliefs.
Peace.
