Was The Messenger Of The Qur'aan An Orphan?
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because he was not alone, he was with his grand father then with his uncle who raised him in a healthy enviroment while providing protection and shelter to him as well
this is conjecture.. the verses we're consulting give us no indication this was ever the case.
now using your own logic, Alone can not fit because he was not alone
It isn't my logic but I am leaning towards agreeing with it.. It makes more sense.. read 937 too.. "And He found you lost, and He guided you?" do u now have an accompanying story from this "History" about when the Prophet got lost and was found?
I believe 'orphaned' and 'lost' here are not to be taken literally.
most of all it contradicts the Quran that said he was an orphan but Allah provided shelter and protection to him (that must be through his gran father and his uncle then therough his rich wife Khadiga)
no the Qur'an doesn't say that.. there's no mention of his father uncle or Khadiga.. could u let me know where u read this in the Qur'an?
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because he was not alone, he was with his grand father then with his uncle who raised him in a healthy enviroment while providing protection and shelter to him as well
this is conjecture.. the verses we're consulting give us no indication this was ever the case.
as being Alone is also conjecture, at least my conjecture has plenty of followers, muslims or non
so according to that which do you think is far fetched?
now using your own logic, Alone can not fit because he was not alone
It isn't my logic but I am leaning towards agreeing with it.. It makes more sense.. read 937 too.. "And He found you lost, and He guided you?" do u now have an accompanying story from this "History" about when the Prophet got lost and was found?
that is your wrong understanding to the arabic word "Dalan", it does not mean lost in a suburb, it mean lost about knowing Allah, and Allah guided Him because Mohammad wanted it, 'Allah guides whoever wants to be guided", the arrogants on the other hand are ingnored and hated by Allah
I believe 'orphaned' and 'lost' here are not to be taken literally.
Dalan is the one that has not to be taken literaly but the orphan has to be taken literally
the Quran is a combination of literal/non literal content
most of all it contradicts the Quran that said he was an orphan but Allah provided shelter and protection to him (that must be through his gran father and his uncle then therough his rich wife Khadiga)
no the Qur'an doesn't say that.. there's no mention of his father uncle or Khadiga.. could u let me know where u read this in the Qur'an?
as I said to ask for an evidence from the Quran for the confirmed history records is the weakest argument
if you insist on that then I have many questions to ya
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do you believe in the Quran?, i guess you will say 100%
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who delivered the Quran?. I guess you will say Mohammad
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Then how you can confirm to me that Mohammad or other did not manipulate the Quran by adding and removing content?, you can't
you also didn't answer 7411
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Peace
Then how you can confirm to me that Mohammad or other did not manipulate the Quran by adding and removing content?,
The authentification method is given .
Joe
Peace
but again how you can confirm to me that these verses were not inserted in the Quran?
come on thenabi, we are talking reality here not conjecture, it is your own logic guys
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Hello All
Let's consider the following logic
if a group of brothers and sisters lost their parents, I guess they will be called Orphans
but hey, are they alones?, I guess no, because they are a bunch of brothers and sisters
therefore if Allah wanted to mean "Alone" in that verse in dispute, I guess He should have said "Wa Wagadaka WAHEEDAN Fa Awa", especially Allah is not shy to use the word "Waheed" "Alone" as we have seen in 7411
also we have to consider that the context of the word Yatama "which used numerous times in the Quran" only meant "Orphans" and that is plural, Yatim is the singular form of it and is a very common Arabic word in both Literary Arabic and the public arabic
Peace
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Peace
we are talking reality here not conjecture
Well what can I say when you consider the quran conjecture. I can guide none.
how you can confirm to me that these verses were not inserted in the Quran?
Apply the method I pointed out to you. The reading is nothing based on intellectual inquiry alone. It must be experienced, lived.
Joe
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Peace
we are talking reality here not conjecture
Well what can I say when you consider the quran conjecture. I can guide none.
Peace
Not sure, but i thought you may have something to say, I do when I face that statement but I'm not going to tell you my secrets lol
I wonder why you call it Quran now?, possibly you will say because I name it as such and you were talking from my perpective?, which i should appreciate for sure
how you can confirm to me that these verses were not inserted in the Quran?
Apply the method I pointed out to you. The reading is nothing based on intellectual inquiry alone. It must be experienced, lived.
now I'm confused, you called it Quran then you called it reading, I guess my question is do you mean by the reading the book named Quran?
now regarding living the Quran, can you please eleborate how 7 billions humans should live the the Quran, and when we say live the Quran we mean every verse in the Quran, right?
also I wonder what is your opinion to truth claim a week ago or about that there is a verse which possibly been inserted in the Quran other than 9128 & 9129?, he actually used code 19 to give his claim a bit of merit, but I guess not to the ones who reject code 19
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Peace Ahmed
My do you drift. Be stable like a mountain when it comes to staying in line with a theme.
can you please eleborate how 7 billions humans should live the the Quran
I do not mean that all the people should be living in accordance with the principles laid out in this particular reading. I do not think all of the principles can be truly understood until they stand the test of reality.
Joe
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Peace Ahmed
My do you drift. Be stable like a mountain when it comes to staying in line with a theme.
Peace Joe
My do you drift. Be stable like a mountain when it comes to staying in line with the Jamaah.
can you please eleborate how 7 billions humans should live the the Quran
I do not mean that all the people should be living in accordance with the principles laid out in this particular reading. I do not think all of the principles can be truly understood until they stand the test of reality.
Joe
ok
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I have just 3 comments
Ahmed,
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You cannot compare the old Arabic of the Quranic era with modern literary Arabic and Modern Public Arabic. Your knowledge of Arabic I'm sure is extensive when it comes to modern literary Arabic but it is limited, more than what you (or the Arab history writers) would like to admit when it comes to old Arabic of the Quranic era and before. In the issue of grammar and meanings, old Arabic allows grammar and meanings of words that a modern Arabic speaker would find unintelligible, strange, far-fetched or weak (when compared to the more used modern sense). So you will have to leave much of your sense of what sounds right or not behind. Because old Classical Arabic is a different animal.
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Your statement about dall(un/an/in) is also disputable. From what I know in Old Arabic it did mean physically misguided as well. Physical misguidance can easily be metaphorically used as a spiritual misguidance.
Which brings me back to the point that you should not be equating old Arabic with modern Arabics. -
If yateem can be used to mean 'alienated or abandoned' ask for the source from which this informations comes from. The hadeeth based stories, whether they have more of a following or not (muslim or non-muslim), are not to be preffered over any possible, valid, interpretation of the Koran.
It is true that so far you have just used the history of a hadeeth to say that yateem as 'alienated or abandoned' makes no sense. And you haven't even used a hadeeth that would give linguistic proof but you are using a hadeethic belief, and not evidence that can be percieved from a hadeeth without consulting the 'belief' of the hadeeth. If you see what I'm saying.
Godbless,
Anwar -
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I have just 3 comments
Ahmed,
- You cannot compare the old Arabic of the Quranic era with modern literary Arabic and Modern Public Arabic. Your knowledge of Arabic I'm sure is extensive when it comes to modern literary Arabic but it is limited, more than what you (or the Arab history writers) would like to admit when it comes to old Arabic of the Quranic era and before. In the issue of grammar and meanings, old Arabic allows grammar and meanings of words that a modern Arabic speaker would find unintelligible, strange, far-fetched or weak (when compared to the more used modern sense). So you will have to leave much of your sense of what sounds right or not behind. Because old Classical Arabic is a different animal.
Peace Anwar
I'm sorry bro the Arabic that is taught at all arabic countries at all stages is the Leterary Arabic which is the same as the Arabic Quran, there is no difference whatsoever as far as the Arab language proffessional are concerned
- Your statement about dall(un/an/in) is also disputable. From what I know in Old Arabic it did mean physically misguided as well. Physical misguidance can easily be metaphorically used as a spiritual misguidance.
as far as i know it means spiritual misguidance or phsically lost and even it can mean someone whom his parents are not known, in the Quran verse however the context meant spiritual misguidance
Which brings me back to the point that you should not be equating old Arabic with modern Arabics.
I'm not equating modern arabic, I'm equating the Lugha Arabia Fusha, the same arabic of the Quran, I have hundreds of material regarding the grammar and the arabic Quran written by Arabic Language highly expreienced professional, one of them is the Minister of Awqaf in Egypt, therefore I will listen to the professionals and surely will not listen to the non arabic speakers with my total respect to them
- If yateem can be used to mean 'alienated or abandoned' ask for the source from which this informations comes from. The hadeeth based stories, whether they have more of a following or not (muslim or non-muslim), are not to be preffered over any possible, valid, interpretation of the Koran.
I guess Dallan is the one that can be used to refer to someone with unknown parents, Yatim only means Orpahn and that was the context of the Quran all along when this word was used
It is true that so far you have just used the history of a hadeeth to say that yateem as 'alienated or abandoned' makes no sense.
wrong because I didn't quote any hadith
And you haven't even used a hadeeth that would give linguistic proof but you are using a hadeethic belief,
this is undoublty wrong, I don't use hadith in my arguments with others
and not evidence that can be percieved from a hadeeth without consulting the 'belief' of the hadeeth. If you see what I'm saying.
The belief in the hadith is a personal choice, for me I don't use any hadith in my arguments
there is no hadith that I read which says Mohammad father died before he was born and his mother died when he was six, this is common knowledge even between the non mulsims
Godbless,
Anwarcheers
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...the Arab language proffessional....
...by Arabic Language highly expreienced professional, one of them is the Minister of Awqaf in Egypt, therefore I will listen to the professionals....
Ahmed you make the logical fallacy of appealing to authority which is always invalid; especially invalid when the authority you appeal to is you, yourself which you do with regular monotony.
It's a logical fallacy and everyone knows it by now.
See http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority
there is no hadith that I read which says Mohammad father died before he was born and his mother died when he was six, this is common knowledge even between the non mulsims
This is the logical fallacy of appeal to belief - just because alot of people believe something it does not mean it is true. There are as many people who have it as "common knowledge" that Christ is a deity. How do you answer them?
You must avoid the logical fallacies Ahmed, you argue in very facile ways and it is never hard to see the repeated wrong logic you use.
Regards.
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...the Arab language proffessional....
...by Arabic Language highly expreienced professional, one of them is the Minister of Awqaf in Egypt, therefore I will listen to the professionals....
Ahmed you make the logical fallacy of appealing to authority which is always invalid; especially invalid when the authority you appeal to is you, yourself which you do with regular monotony.
I do not know what you mean, but it seems you are building your understainding that I'm following an authority, I only listen btw, obeying is totally something else, but hat i obey is what my own understanding concluded, it just happens that it is the same as the majority
It's a logical fallacy and everyone knows it by now.
See http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority
Thanks for the link, interesting read indeed, however it does not apply to me as I don't follow any but myself, it just happens that my understanding is the same as the majority, and this is enough to make feel happy and peaceful
there is no hadith that I read which says Mohammad father died before he was born and his mother died when he was six, this is common knowledge even between the non mulsims
This is the logical fallacy of appeal to belief - just because alot of people believe something it does not mean it is true. There are as many people who have it as "common knowledge" that Christ is a deity. How do you answer them?
as I said if it makes sense to me based on my own understanding then this is most likely what I will go for, then if check out many other understandings and found that the majority is the same as mine then certainly my own understanding is the one that I will go for
You must avoid the logical fallacies Ahmed, you argue in very facile ways and it is never hard to see the repeated wrong logic you use.
Regards.
Bro, as I said I don't follow based on the majority for example I don't follow the compulsory "shahada all day long" because it does not make sense to me therefore you can't say that I base my understanding on the majority understanding, my understadings are just matters of being many times the same as the majority and this is enough to make me happy and peaceful
Best Regards
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quite simply the strongest argument in Ahmed's favor is the use of the word "yatim" in the Qur'an.. we do not get any evidence of it meaning "Alone" by it's use in the Qur'an.. which is our primary guide.. as it explains itself.
However, the OP's discovery of the use of plural and singular when addressing the Prophet do hold some weight. The context of the use of addressing the Prophet as "orphan" and "lost" also suggests the meaning to be more on the non-literal side.
I still think it's a noble effort by the OP to share this discovery.
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Peace PakistaniAbroad
Hope you are well mate,
I have a point regarding the non literal meaning of the word Dallan
The word in the verse is understood literally, Dallan also means someone who wants to find God and can't on his own "i.e. lost" and that is what the prophet was doing before the Wahi came to him in Hira, he wanted to find God bad but failed, this is a literal meaning to the word Dallan also
Peace
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Peace to you,
Peace Anwar
I'm sorry bro the Arabic that is taught at all arabic countries at all stages is the Leterary Arabic which is the same as the Arabic Quran, there is no difference whatsoever as far as the Arab language proffessional are concerned
This is where you are wrong. Unfortunately the fact that al-lughatul-arabiyatul-mu'aasirah is commonly mislabeled as al-lughatul-arabeeyatul-fus-haa has misled you to think that they are the same. Until you can recognize that they are different you will continue to be misguided. But I'm sure this will go against certain cultural ideas that you have, so you can choose to agree with me or not, but read up more on your language and you will start to see the light. This a fallacy of many Arabs, you are not the only one, that will definitely impede your religious understanding. I'm glad to be blessed with a group of Arab Arabic teachers who would plainly disagree with you. Some of which are beyond qualified in the ancient classical Arabic and the modern Arabic. I have had these converstions with some of them also, so don't think I am just a poor, ignorant and misguided non-Arabic speaker.
You fluent Arab speakers here could be of a great aid to the Quran if you could recognize this truth. Layth suffers from this belief too which is based in some cultural misconceptions that have sprung out of Arab Nationalism and its interrelation with Islam. Recognizing the Classical Arabic itself has had different eras of development and change, which have affected the language enough so that old and ancient phrases seem awkward or unintelligible to the modern Arabic speaker is necessary to be able to really understand and promote the message of the Koran. The eras or epochs have also been minimal but substantial enough so that Classical Arabic can, should and (is by certain educated individuals) classified into different eras Pre-Islamic or Quranic Classical Arabic, Islamic Classical Arabic and Modern Classical Arabic. The last change however has been the most drastic because it has been a systematic (although not absolute) reduction of the Classical Arabic rules, grammar and vocabulary which have been accepted as valid since the Pre-Islamic Classical Arabic period.
Modern Literary Arabic is close to, and pulls from, the ancient classical Arabic of the Quran but they are not the same, and Modern literary Arabic lacks much of ancient classical Arabic and at the same time uses those modern and post-quranic meanings that the language of the Quran would not and cannot discuss because it's topics are limited to the capacity of the language of the time of the Quran. So it will not talk of dabbaabaat (tanks) or taa'iraat (Airplants), sayyaraat (cars or vehicles) or qita&a ghiyaar (spare parts) or many of the topics which use ancient Classical Arabic words but which go beyond the Quran's circle of expressions.
Secondly, I looked up the word in Wehr's dictionar and dictionary that encompasses both modern Arabic and older school arabic and the word yateem can mean 'alone or solitary'. So I'm definitely taking the side of those who proclaimed that yateem can mean that because it is in the dictionary of al-lughatul-arabiyatul-fushaa. Because this word can mean that there is no reason to exlude it. That would be unjust.
If you disagreed with everything I have said here we might as well sum up our talks here. If that is the case, go ahead and make your rebuttal, but I'm sure I'll have nothing to say to you after that. Let's see.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace to you,
Peace Anwar
I'm sorry bro the Arabic that is taught at all arabic countries at all stages is the Leterary Arabic which is the same as the Arabic Quran, there is no difference whatsoever as far as the Arab language proffessional are concerned
This is where you are wrong. Unfortunately the fact that a al-lughatul-arabiyatul-mu'aasirah is commonly mislabeled as al-lughatul-arabeeyatul-fus-haa has misled you to think that they are the same.
Salam Anwar
Where you got this info from, that the lugha Arabia Masria is not the same as lugha Arabia fusha?, this is a clear cut mistake because I never heard of such thing called lugha Arabia Masria, the following info is from wikipedia
The term "Arabic" may refer either to literary Arabic or Modern Standard Arabic or to the many localized varieties of Arabic commonly called "colloquial Arabic." Arabs consider literary Arabic as the standard language and tend to view everything else as mere dialects. Literary Arabic, al-luatu-l-arabiyyatu-l-fu (Literally "the most eloquent Arabic language" ? ى refers both to the language of present-day media across North Africa and the Middle East and to the more articulate language of the Qur'an. (The expression media here includes most television and radio, and all written matter, including all books, newspapers, magazines, documents of every kind, and reading primers for small children.) "Colloquial" or "dialectal" Arabic refers to the many national or regional varieties derived from Classical Arabic, spoken daily across North Africa and the Middle East, which constitute the everyday spoken language. These sometimes differ enough to be mutually incomprehensible. These dialects are not typically written, although a certain amount of literature (particularly plays and poetry) exists in many of them. They are often used to varying degrees in informal spoken media, such as soap operas and talk shows. Literary Arabic or classical Arabic is the official language of all Arab countries and is the only form of Arabic taught in schools at all stages.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArabicUntil you can recognize that they are different you will continue to be misguided.
sure I recognised that your statement above does not exist in the real world, I guess you also have lugha Arabia Tunisia, lugha Arabia Maghrabia, etc etc, LOL bro, there is no such thing, I guess you mean the public language not the language taught at schools, in this case I believe you are the misinformed one, being guided or not I will leave this to Allah to judge between the Muslims
But I'm sure this will go against certain cultural ideas that you have,
same wrong assumption again, come on bro, I have no specific culture, I?m a multi cultural sort of guy, I lived abroad most of my life and in different countries, where you got this assumption from?, do you know me well?
so you can choose to agree with me or not,
of course I have to disagree with you, that is what I said all along and provided supporting verse from the Quran regarding the word Alone, you supplied nothing other than you personal opinion
but read up more on your language and you will start to see the light.
LOL, I don?t read about my language, I studied my language since I was 5 years old and what I studied is the same Arabic as the Arabic Quran that is taught in all Arabic countries at all schools and at all stages
This a fallacy of many Arabs,
This is indeed a jealousy over the Arabs, LOL, bad luck mate
you are not the only one, that will definitely impede your religious understanding.
come on, stop making accusations and assumptions, you are the one who lacks Arabic hence most of the things you will try to say should not be taken seriously by a native Arabic speaker like me UNLESS IT HAS MERIT and so far you provided no merit, make sense to you?
I'm glad to be blessed with a group of Arab Arabic teachers who would plainly disagree with you. Some of which are beyond qualified in the ancient classical Arabic and the modern Arabic. I have had these converstions with some of them also, so don't think I am just a poor, ignorant and misguided non-Arabic speaker.
ok
You fluent Arab speakers here could be of a great aid to the Quran if you could recognize this truth. Layth suffers from this belief too which is based in some cultural misconceptions that have sprung out of Arab Nationalism and its interrelation with Islam.
sorry, what Layth has to do with it?
Recognizing the Classical Arabic itself has had different eras of development and change, which have affected the language enough so that old and ancient phrases seem awkward or unintelligible to the modern Arabic speaker is necessary to be able to really understand and promote the message of the Koran.
oh yeh, the same old used by date things that I only hear here. if this is what you think, then what is my problem sir?, it is not of my business really, you do what you do, and I do what I do and Layth does what he does and also the public choose what they choose, fair enough to you? But please don?t accuse me of being misguided and impeding my religion understanding
The eras or epochs have also been minimal but substantial enough so that Classical Arabic can, should and (is by certain educated individuals) classified into different eras Pre-Islamic or Quranic Classical Arabic, Islamic Classical Arabic and Modern Classical Arabic. The last change however has been the most drastic because it has been a systematic (although not absolute) reduction of the Classical Arabic rules, grammar and vocabulary which have been accepted as valid since the Pre-Islamic Classical Arabic period.
excuse me, the Quran is based on the common Arabic language, not an Arabic from a different planet
Modern Literary Arabic is close to, and pulls from, the ancient classical Arabic of the Quran but they are not the same, and Modern literary Arabic lacks much of ancient classical Arabic and at the same time uses those modern and post-quranic meanings that the language of the Quran would not and cannot discuss because it's topics are limited to the capacity of the language of the time of the Quran. So it will not talk of dabbaabaat (tanks) or taa'iraat (Airplants), sayyaraat (cars or vehicles) or qita&a ghiyaar (spare parts) or many of the topics which use ancient Classical Arabic words but which go beyond the Quran's circle of expressions.
I guess the above is irrelevant, but thanks for the insight, sure you know a lot about Arabic, I?m very impressed
Secondly, I looked up the word in Wehr's dictionar and dictionary that encompasses both modern Arabic and older school arabic and the word yateem can mean 'alone or solitary'. So I'm definitely taking the side of those who proclaimed that yateem can mean that because it is in the dictionary of al-lughatul-arabiyatul-fushaa. Because this word can mean that there is no reason to exlude it. That would be unjust.
bad luck, I don?t look up words from any dictionary because they are very clear to me as being a native Arabic speaker, possibly very few Arabic words that I looked up about 20 years ago, but surely not Yatim as in the context of the Quran it only meant orphan all along and in every single location a variation of the word used, alos the history confirm 100% that the prophet was orphaned by the age of 6
and surely HE WAS NEVER ALONE but always had family members and friends to support him till the day he died, your problem is, your argument has to be supported by either the history or the Quran, and you provided zero evidences other than your Wehr's dictionary which is irrelevant here, sure I agree that many Arabic words may mean many meanings but only if a strong argument support it not the already known fact that a word can mean two meanings, got my point?
If you disagreed with everything I have said here we might as well sum up our talks here. If that is the case, go ahead and make your rebuttal, but I'm sure I'll have nothing to say to you after that. Let's see.
Of course I have to disagree, and I explained to you why, simply and again, you provided no evidence to say the word Yatim in that verse meant alone
I provided a compelling evidence in the Quran that the word alone is something else and was used once in the whole Quran, also the very well known history records about Mohammad by the majority of the Muslims and non Muslims regardless they are arabs or not is Mohammad was an orphan by the age of 6
So where exactly I got it wrong sir?
Godbless,
AnwarCheers
Ahmed
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Peace
I don?t look up words from any dictionary because they are very clear to me as being a native Arabic speaker
Even english speaking people look up english words in the dictionary to recheck a meaning. I'm a native English speaker and look up words in the dictionary all the time.
Joe
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Peace
I don?t look up words from any dictionary because they are very clear to me as being a native Arabic speaker
Even english speaking people look up english words in the dictionary to recheck a meaning. I'm a native English speaker and look up words in the dictionary all the time.
Joe
Peace
sure, but how often you do it?, and if you do it a lot, I'm sure there are others who do it very rare, and as I steted above, I did it very rare many years ago then didn't need to do it any more because the Quran was fully read and all the hard words were identified and their meannings were searched for, theough arabic dictionaries and asking the people with knwledge, I didn't deny the action fully, but I guess if you face a tough word you only need to look it up once, not every time you read the Quran and that is what i did ages ago, there is no new arabic words in te Quran for me since years ago, every tough word was looked up
Ahmed
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Peace,
Such flagrant Arabism... because that's what we are experiencing here. If you took the reading (quran) away then the Arabists would truly account for nothing.
The other aspect that Arabists seem to not understand is that rather than an honour to their language the fact that this warning was revealed to this nation is a great black mark on them. They were chosen for their heights of hypocrisy and paganism. Specially selected to receive guidance because of the depths of their evil practises and customs.
The fact is that they remain among the most misguided souls on the earth; that their backwardness and 'jahiliya' persists to this very day with no signs of enlightenment on the horizon.
997 The Arabs are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and the most likely to ignore the laws that GOD has revealed to His messenger. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
So when the Arabists become excited by the fact that the reading is in their tongue let them also reflect on the reasons why that is so - and on the verse above so that they may be humbled to know that they, like their predecessors are being spoken to.
Peace.