The human eye and the garbage "evolutionists" clai
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Peace "sawtooth",
I DID read the article and it in fact says much the same as the article I posted. what you have to understand is that when one side says it's a pro the other will find t a con to make a point. the basic truth is that there are better designed eyes in nature. logically speaking we should not even be standing upright. It leads to shorter gestation periods and infants that require more care for a longer period and it exposes the soft underbelly making it vulnerable. Evolution and science does not need to point these things out, they are obvious. Evolution simply seeks to explain WHY and in many cases, theoretically, it has.
JK- This is not about evolution in general since as i said before i believe in an intelligently calculated and ordinated evolution which resulted in the RELATIVELY PERFECT formation of man. Your statement that their are better eyes than the human eye is quite unacceptable to me, especially if my above quoted Quranic verse is taken into account. It mayber that certain aspects of the octopuses or squids eye may at 1st study appear to be more perfect but an overall study reveals the marvel of the human eye. The evolutionists REAGDRING THIS ISSUE nitpicked certain things to bash, GOD forbid, the Creator. Michael Shermer is one of them. He outrightly said "The human eye is a POOR design". He didnt even use the wird "relative". And now you make another claim saying that "logically" we shouldnt be even standing upright. I guess Einstein was right when he said "A little knowledge of science makes one an atheist while an indebt study of things makes one a believer in GOD". This is exactly the mistake committed by the evolutionists. They nitpick on certain things, dont study the whole detail and then bizarrely claim that those things are poor design. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Andya",
Nothing in the Qur'an that said good design cannot be produced by evolution either, except for those prejudiced and think they know what God must or must not do.
JK- Excuse me Andya! I believe in evolution BUT intlliegent and controlled evolution which lead to the RELATIVELY PERFECT DESIGN of the human being and not half baked poor eye design, etc. So yes ofcourse good and even marvellous design can arise by calculated and intelligently controlled evolution which is exactly what happened.
Oh, and ICR believes the earth is only 6000 years old...
JK- As i said i dont take all of their claims to be true but those which agree with the Quran and logic id obviously defend those. Btw there are old earth creationists too who believe the earth is billions of years old. GOD Bless!
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It's all simple observation. No we should NOT be standing upright. It exposes the underbelly and contracts the pelvic region forcing a short gestation period and birthing of children only barely completely formed and vulnerable to disease and trauma. That's logic. The reality, REALITY is that because of our social nature and basic lack of instinct and reliance on learning EVERYTHING, that early birth is necessary to cement the bonds between mother and child. evolutionists are the ones that first broke open that theory explaining WHY a being would convert to such a logically vulnerable and undesirable state. the human eye ALONE IS flawed in it's design, BUT when attached to the human brain makes sense. Face it, we have limited peripheral vision, blood vessels that are nearly exposed and lids that are less than adequate. How did this occur? If you are a believer in creationism, there is no question, just blind faith. If you are not, then it is not so easy. One simply has to make their own choice on what they are going to believe in regards to evolution and the beginning of time. Personally I believe a bit in both, but also feel that creationism at its purest is a cop out, too easy, and that evolution alone is quite bleak and leaves nothing greater than ourselves (fairly depressing really).
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Peace "sawtooth",
So you believe that way. Ok fine but thats not Quranic and i believe it shows ungratefulness towards GOD as well. All the points you mentioned regarding the eye were answered in the link i gave. As you can see creationists have very good answers to these assertions and they had them quite many years ago too. If they didnt convince you, fine, you are free to believe in what you want. Where to stop then? There has to be a limit.
Regarding that humans might have gotten an even more perfect eye and thus a better vision, well, yes GOD CAN ALWAYS MAKE SOMETHING BETTER. We could get x-ray or t-ray vision allowing us to see through walls and other opaque objects. Or we could get an even quicker focusing. Regarding our bodies we could get a body which would just reflect piercing objects like bullets instead of hurting us. In short we could have been invincible supermen. BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT. Thats why i said we are RELATIVELY PERFECT. GOD Bless! -
Peace "sawtooth",
So you believe that way. Ok fine but thats not Quranic and i believe it shows ungratefulness towards GOD as well. All the points you mentioned regarding the eye were answered in the link i gave. As you can see creationists have very good answers to these assertions and they had them quite many years ago too. If they didnt convince you, fine, you are free to believe in what you want. Where to stop then? There has to be a limit.
Regarding that humans might have gotten an even more perfect eye and thus a better vision, well, yes GOD CAN ALWAYS MAKE SOMETHING BETTER. We could get x-ray or t-ray vision allowing us to see through walls and other opaque objects. Or we could get an even quicker focusing. Regarding our bodies we could get a body which would just reflect piercing objects like bullets instead of hurting us. In short we could have been invincible supermen. BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT. Thats why i said we are RELATIVELY PERFECT. GOD Bless!My point is that being a superman is NOT possible. Our biology does not allow it. I have made no secret of the fact that I am not a follower of the Koran, but I also respect anyone's right to believe as they wish as long as it does not become a detriment to fellow life forms. The articles I posted, if you read them, do not exactly refute your stance, they simply aim to give an explanation as to the hows and whys. I am a believer that there IS a creator but that it's creation is trapped within the confines of natural law, and part of that natural law is evolution. We were intended to EVOLVE into what we are now. They eye is as it is because of natural law and evolution, set forth by the creator. No being is absolutely perfect, just well adapted to it's environment. the longer it remains in a constant environmental surrounding, the more adapted it becomes. Something seemingly impossible for humans given the environment we create for ourselves. I don't discount your beliefs, in fact at the core we believe much the same. I just believe a kind of expanded version of creationism that is locked into natural law.
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Peace "sawtooth"
My point is that being a superman is NOT possible. Our biology does not allow it.
JK- I agree and it was not intended by GOD to make us us into superhumans although He could have easily done so. This doesnt however mean that we aint a relatively perfect being, thats all.
I have made no secret of the fact that I am not a follower of the Koran,
JK- Did you read the Quran from cover to cover? Did you read RK's translation? Did you study and analyse the code-19 pattern in detail? If not then please do so 1st before making any decision regarding the Quran. If you have already the to you is your way and to me is mine. Peace!
but I also respect anyone's right to believe as they wish as long as it does not become a detriment to fellow life forms. The articles I posted, if you read them, do not exactly refute your stance, they simply aim to give an explanation as to the hows and whys. I am a believer that there IS a creator but that it's creation is trapped within the confines of natural law, and part of that natural law is evolution. We were intended to EVOLVE into what we are now.
JK- I agree but not through ape-like half-baked creatures. We evolved from nonliving atoms and molecules which came together in a specific order at a specific location by GOD's Will.
They eye is as it is because of natural law and evolution, set forth by the creator. No being is absolutely perfect, just well adapted to it's environment.
JK- Absoultely and i agree. Therefore i used the term "relatively perfect".
the longer it remains in a constant environmental surrounding, the more adapted it becomes.
JK- I agree with that too and this is once again because of the instructions in the very DNA.
Something seemingly impossible for humans given the environment we create for ourselves. I don't discount your beliefs, in fact at the core we believe much the same. I just believe a kind of expanded version of creationism that is locked into natural law.
JK- Well yes it seems that we actually do share many beliefs for i too dont believe in a piece by piece creation like the young earth creationists do. Yet they have some articles which are very good. Some articles of evolutionists are also very good, i dont deny that either. But bot have severe errors and the Quran Alone Muslims stand in the middle which i believe is the only right way. GOD Bless!
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I have said before i have no real interest in the koran. Besides I would read a translation only to find out from someone that the english translation of half the words was all wrong LOL No I don't need a book to learn what is intended for me to know. I have my own guidebook so to speak. I love not by the laws written in any book but by the laws set within my heart by my creator. My take a little work to find them underneath the layers of crap thrown on by existence, but it's worth it. If someone wants to read and follow a book that's fine with me. I just don't even have enough curiosity to justify a glance. No offence, just not my path. I have my own theories as to why that is, but that is for another discussion on another day Peace
Oh BTW I have NEVER baught into the whole "we come from apes" thing, though I DO firmly believe that there have been more than a few simlar species, perhaps almost different breeds of human that HAVE existed. Perhaps the creator set forth a few possible species to see how they would react to the natural law, just to make sure we made it through
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Peace "sawtooth",
I have said before i have no real interest in the koran. Besides I would read a translation only to find out from someone that the english translation of half the words was all wrong LOL No I don't need a book to learn what is intended for me to know. I have my own guidebook so to speak. I love not by the laws written in any book but by the laws set within my heart by my creator.
JK- The "hearts feeling" so to say is not all otherwise the Christians maybe just as right claiming Jesus is GOD based on what their hearts tells them. Therefore GOD has given us the intellect in addition to the hearts' feelings. Regarding your stance on the Quran. Suppose GOD Himself intended to put His Laws in a book revealed through a human messenger He chose and the possibility of such is high. If you just ignore that then i guess this would be intellectually dishonest. The legal laws in the Quran are stated very clearly and there is consent regarding the understanding of those. Besides this tghe Quran also contains verses which are not so clear at first sight but become so as you keep studying more and more which i find rather exciting. Each time i study the Quran it amazes me anew as a another mystery clears off. I wished you would have at least studied it and the make your decision. GOD Bless!
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Again, I prefer to study creation itself. It truly a berillian miracle and guidebook in itself. As for jesus BEIG god. Well as I was taught to understand as a child, Jesus was a human vessel for god to teach the people of the area. He placed a certain level of his own wisdom within the human body of christ and sent him to earth to lead the poeple down a more righteous path. So therefore, a PIECE of christ was in fact god, but once he became human he became the son of god. Sure it's been over simplified over the years, but that is what I was taught of it. Not to say I ever really baught it, but I will say the MAN of Jesus of Nazarath WAS a great teacher and blessed medicine man. BUT he was sent for the people of a particular place and time. Not necesarilly for myself in MY time. I have never heard or rea anything about the Koran that leads me MYSELF to believe that it s anything more than a very GOOD observation of the world and an in depth attempt at explaining tat world. %90 of the laws are simple common sense. People just need those words to appear to come from a place of authority before they will follow them. Same goes for almost all humans in almost all situations. They are simple rules that will lead to a greater good for a general population. but again, as in every case on earth, some laws are not going to work cross culturally or in another geographic place. It is IS the word of god, it was itended for the people that recieved in THEIR time and place.
Simply my opinion. I do not expect anyone else to share it, but I don't suspect I am on my own with it either. to each his own.
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here is a link that shows the simplest of example of why I believe the koran is meant for a specific people in place and time. Polyandry, the act of a woman marrying multiple men. In Tibet, men out number te women so drastically that species survival lead to th act of polyandry to allow all men the chance to marry and procreate. this goes against the Koran, but is RIGHT for THESE poeple. AS times change, if the natural ration of men to women change so will the need for this law within it's religion etc... Again this is just one simple example that explains MY stance. It is not an attempt to sway you from yours. I just feel ths example will better explain myself to others.
http//www.case.edu/affil/tibet/tibetanSociety/marriage.htm
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Peace sawtooth and all. I have to agree,sawtooth, that some of the quran was relative to the time and so were the past prophets. Should we only consult one book which only has an aspect of the truth when there is a never-ending amount of knowledge in the universe. I try to check my understanding of life from myself and the world around. We should not be scared to think with our conscience.(ie the interaction of your will/knowledge with the will/knowledge of others around you.)I speak as someone that recognises aspects of the truth from many different books and sciences. We should also recognise we do not comprehend everything totally,there is always more to know.(new angles on topics)
Peace. -
peace bmbmm,
how is it impossible for a cell to evolve?
don't bacteria evolve all the time? ?and JK, give it up. You've been proven wrong again and again. Soon, you'll leave this thread too (once you are presented with questions you or khalifa cannot answer) and start a new topic bashing evolution (which you're eventually going to leave again).
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Any evolutionist (PhD) here, I want to join some people to issue a "FATWA" against evolution lol Because it is rubbish!
My my, wasn't it you who was riling against the priesthood of traditional Islam?
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There is no scientific evidence for evolution. If there is, as a biochemist and Molecular Biologist, I would be the first person to support it. Trust me there is no evidence for evolution. It is impossible for a cell to evolve.
There is evidence for evolution. As a taxonomist, I will point to the hierarchical nature of the classification of organisms as evidence for evolution. Also, the fossil record clearly points towards evolution and not separate creation.
Bacteria evolve. They are cells. Hence, cells can and do evolve.
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Hi Andya,
Why use a magnifying glass if we got a microscope, and why use a microscope when we can use a confocal, and why use a confocal if we have the state-of-the art deltavision-deconvolving microscope, and why use this if we have the mighty electro-microscope lol ??????
All I am trying to say why don't we look at evolution from a biochemical-molecular biological point of view when we can? Why use the texonomical data when we have molecular biology and X-crystalography to pinpoint evolution (if it occurs)?
I do not see evidence for evolution, i totally reject it. I have asked for evolutionist (PhD) to debate with me, were are they?