Hajj,Prayer,Mecca and the Quran:
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Salaams!
The way I look at it,it implies the house is a guide to where we are to take pilgrimage as it mentions in ayat 97..But its not my ayat,its the translation the Quran....
As for mybeliefs,they will remain inshallah until some one proves otherwise.And Ive read over the support for pilgrimage and the place for it not to be a literal place but a spiritual one,it doesnt hold water when all the surahs and ayats are compared...they are referring to a literal place.
SalaamSalaams Br,
most of your beliefs are wrong according to my interpretation of things ,but just a simple quistion
HOW DOES A BUILDING GIVE GUIDANCE?
See all the following it is always guidance from malaikaat,people or from books or something accept your one ayah 396 which says a house gives guidance ???
Slaams.
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Salaams hamza,
you said "its the translation of Allah in the quran"
sorry Br, as far as i have known Allah gave the ayah but our fellow beings have done the translation of that , believe it they have made a fortune through their mistranslations.
And if you looked at all them ayah's i provided you will get a feel of what guidance allah is talking about and will know it is only god through people or books who can lead us , give us the directions and Br indeed not buildings.
And the bayt in that ayah isn't a building but God will show you if you carry on searching - i thinks.
God Bless for now.
Guidance
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Salaams mz357,
Yes you are correct,the version I GAVE is indeed the translation into English..
And as you hadInna awwala baytin wudiAAa lilnnasilallathee bibakkata mubarakan wahudan lilAAalameena
The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings
ayat being tranlated as house...
But I wasnt implying the actual house was to guide us,I know only Allah can do this..I was saying that it is this place that Allah was telling us to go to for pilgrimage..There is some misunderstanding between us I see..What is the ayat then?
All the places in the Quran that I HAVE posted and some I havent that I read implies a physical place,if you read them again........
Abraham and Ismail where there,people are not to fight if they are there,unless they are attacked,people are to go there etc etc etc..
So the Quran cant be referring to a state of mind..It has to be speaking of a physical place and a physical pilgrimage and House etc or it is contradictory and makes no since..Salaam!
Salaams hamza,
you said "its the translation of Allah in the quran"
sorry Br, as far as i have known Allah gave the ayah but our fellow beings have done the translation of that , believe it they have made a fortune through their mistranslations.
And if you looked at all them ayah's i provided you will get a feel of what guidance allah is talking about and will know it is only god through people or books who can lead us , give us the directions and Br indeed not buildings.
And the bayt in that ayah isn't a building but God will show you if you carry on searching - i thinks.
God Bless for now.
Guidance
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Haijj in the Quran
Surah 2197
002.197
YUSUFALI For Hajj are the months well known. If any one undertakes that duty therein, Let there be no obscenity, nor wickedness, nor wrangling in the Hajj. And whatever good ye do, (be sure) Allah knoweth it. And take a provision (With you) for the journey, but the best of provisions is right conduct. So fear Me, o ye that are wise.
PICKTHAL The pilgrimage is (in) the well-known months, and whoever is minded to perform the pilgrimage therein (let him remember that) there is (to be) no lewdness nor abuse nor angry conversation on the pilgrimage. And whatsoever good ye do Allah knoweth it. So make provision for yourselves (Hereafter); for the best provision is to ward off evil. Therefore keep your duty unto Me, O men of understanding.
SHAKIR The pilgrimage is (performed in) the well-known months; so whoever determines the performance of the pilgrimage therein, there shall be no intercourse nor fornication nor quarrelling amongst one another; and whatever good you do, Allah knows it; and make provision, for surely the provision is the guarding of oneself, and be careful (of your duty) to Me, O men of understanding.Surah 397
003.097
YUSUFALI In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.
PICKTHAL Wherein are plain memorials (of Allah's guidance); the place where Abraham stood up to pray; and whosoever entereth it is safe. And pilgrimage to the House is a duty unto Allah for mankind, for him who can find a way thither. As for him who disbelieveth, (let him know that) lo! Allah is Independent of (all) creatures.
SHAKIR In it are clear signs, the standing place of Ibrahim, and whoever enters it shall be secure, and pilgrimage to the House is incumbent upon men for the sake of Allah, (upon) every one who is able to undertake the journey to it; and whoever disbelieves, then surely Allah is Self-sufficient, above any need of the worlds.Surah 597
005.097
YUSUFALI Allah made the Ka'ba, the Sacred House, an asylum of security for men, as also the Sacred Months, the animals for offerings, and the garlands that mark them That ye may know that Allah hath knowledge of what is in the heavens and on earth and that Allah is well acquainted with all things.
PICKTHAL Allah hath appointed the Ka'bah, the Sacred House, a standard for mankind, and the Sacred Month and the offerings and the garlands. That is so that ye may know that Allah knoweth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, and that Allah is Knower of all things.
SHAKIR Allah has made the Kaaba, the sacred house, a maintenance for the people, and the sacred month and the offerings and the sacrificial animals with garlands; this is that you may know that Allah knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth, and that Allah is the Knower of all things.Surah 2225,26,27,29,30
022.025
YUSUFALI As to those who have rejected (Allah), and would keep back (men) from the Way of Allah, and from the Sacred Mosque, which We have made (open) to (all) men - equal is the dweller there and the visitor from the country - and any whose purpose therein is profanity or wrong-doing - them will We cause to taste of a most Grievous Penalty.
PICKTHAL Lo! those who disbelieve and bar (men) from the way of Allah and from the Inviolable Place of Worship, which We have appointed for mankind together, the dweller therein and the nomad whosoever seeketh wrongful partiality therein, him We shall cause to taste a painful doom.
SHAKIR Surely (as for) those who disbelieve, and hinder (men) from Allah's way and from the Sacred Mosque which We have made equally for all men, (for) the dweller therein and (for) the visitor, and whoever shall incline therein to wrong unjustly, We will make him taste of a painful chastisement.022.026
YUSUFALI Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying) "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
PICKTHAL And (remember) when We prepared for Abraham the place of the (holy) House, saying Ascribe thou no thing as partner unto Me, and purify My House for those who make the round (thereof) and those who stand and those who bow and make prostration.
SHAKIR And when We assigned to Ibrahim the place of the House, saying Do not associate with Me aught, and purify My House for those who make the circuit and stand to pray and bow and prostrate themselves.022.027
YUSUFALI "And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways;
PICKTHAL And proclaim unto mankind the pilgrimage. They will come unto thee on foot and on every lean camel; they will come from every deep ravine,
SHAKIR And proclaim among men the Pilgrimage they will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, coming from every remote path,022.028
YUSUFALI "That they may witness the benefits (provided) for them, and celebrate the name of Allah, through the Days appointed, over the cattle which He has provided for them (for sacrifice) then eat ye thereof and feed the distressed ones in want.
PICKTHAL That they may witness things that are of benefit to them, and mention the name of Allah on appointed days over the beast of cattle that He hath bestowed upon them. Then eat thereof and feed therewith the poor unfortunate.
SHAKIR That they may witness advantages for them and mention the name of Allah during stated days over what He has given them of the cattle quadrupeds, then eat of them and feed the distressed one, the needy.022.029
YUSUFALI "Then let them complete the rites prescribed for them, perform their vows, and (again) circumambulate the Ancient House."
PICKTHAL Then let them make an end of their unkemptness and pay their vows and go around the ancient House.
SHAKIR Then let them accomplish their needful acts of shaving and cleansing, and let them fulfil their vows and let them go round the Ancient House.022.030
YUSUFALI Such (is the Pilgrimage) whoever honours the sacred rites of Allah, for him it is good in the Sight of his Lord. Lawful to you (for food in Pilgrimage) are cattle, except those mentioned to you (as exception) but shun the abomination of idols, and shun the word that is false,-
PICKTHAL That (is the command). And whoso magnifieth the sacred things of Allah, it will be well for him in the sight of his Lord. The cattle are lawful unto you save that which hath been told you. So shun the filth of idols, and shun lying speech,
SHAKIR That (shall be so); and whoever respects the sacred ordinances of Allah, it is better for him with his Lord; and the cattle are made lawful for you, except that which is recited to you, therefore avoid the uncleanness of the idols and avoid false words,All the above surahs refer to going to a place,house,and doing certain things while being there,all refer to actual things,not a spiritual journey in the mind,re read all of them in detail..
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And from Free-Minds
http//www.free-minds.org/quran/
Surah 2197 The Pilgrimage is in the months which have been appointed. So whosoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.
Surah 397 In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And God is owed from mankind to make Pilgrimage to the Sanctuary, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.
Surah 597 God has made the Kaaba to be the Restricted Sanctuary, to enforce for the people, and for the restricted month, and for the donations, and for regulation; that is so you know that God knows what is in heavens and what is in Earth, and that God is aware of all things.
Surah 2225-30 Those who have rejected and repel from the path of God and the Restricted Temple that We have made for mankind, for the dweller or the visitor to it; and whoever inclines to evil action in it, We will let them taste a painful retribution.
2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Sanctuary "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Sanctuary for those who will partake, and those who will enforce, and those who kneel and prostrate."
2227 And call out to mankind with the Pilgrimage, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
2228 So that they may witness benefits for themselves and recall God's name in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.
2229 Then let them complete their duties and fulfill their vows, and let them traverse at the ancient Sanctuary.
2230 Thus, and whosoever honours God's restrictions, then it is better for him with His Lord. And the livestock is made lawful for you except what is recited upon you. So avoid the foulness of idols and avoid saying false statements.
Even the Free-Minds translation implies a physical location,time and pilgrimage...
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Salaam hamza,
try reading other topics that way you will understand easier and more of the quran.
All the translations of the quran even free-minds version have been done from the point of view of the prevailing islam-which isn't the quranic version.
just an example
in the following ayah according to the normal trans Allah is saying clean my bayt but then after a couple of ayah's then Abraha and Isma build the bayt - so what/how could they clean something that didn't yet exist?
002.125
YUSUFALI Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).002.126
YUSUFALI And remember Abraham said "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"002.127
YUSUFALI And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer) "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.Actualy what Allah is talking about is A COMMUNITY and not a house the word Bayt has a number of different meanings you need something like a lanes lexicon to understand-i think.
Salaams.
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Salaam mz357,
Actually reading this doesnt prove that the house Abraham and Ismail built already existed.Example I cleaned my house and refurnished it from top to bottom.I built my house with the help of my son..
Im not saying I cleaned it and refurnished it before it ever existed..its just the phrasing of it that makes it sound that way.Salaam hamza,
just an example
in the following ayah according to the normal trans Allah is saying clean my bayt but then after a couple of ayah's then Abraha and Isma build the bayt - so what/how could they clean something that didn't yet exist?
002.125
YUSUFALI Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).002.126
YUSUFALI And remember Abraham said "My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He said "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"002.127
YUSUFALI And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer) "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.Actualy what Allah is talking about is A COMMUNITY and not a house the word Bayt has a number of different meanings you need something like a lanes lexicon to understand-i think.
Salaams.
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Brother you are acting like the sunnies they even prove drinking camel urine is good for you when you are sick - and yet their is no camel urine in the hadith which they try and follow.
Good luck to your belief .
God Bless.
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Brother you are acting like the sunnies they even prove drinking camel urine is good for you when you are sick - and yet their is no camel urine in the hadith which they try and follow.
Good luck to your belief .
God Bless.
Wow bro,nice reply(not)..So using reasoning and comparisons are sunni..sorry I dont see It that way sorry..
Bayt and the Hebrew bet(h) mean the same thing form my understanding,it means house....i.e.bet-lechem in Hebrew means house of bread..not community of bread.
God bless you also! -
Salaams Br,
sorry but your reply is the same as a sunni would give me
.......look Bro Hindues drink it don't they?????
you said
Jews call it so we should???????Just trying to wake you Br. nothing bad meant.
Gods Blessings..
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Salaams Br,
sorry but your reply is the same as a sunni would give me
.......look Bro Hindues drink it don't they?????
you said
Jews call it so we should???????Just trying to wake you Br. nothing bad meant.
Gods Blessings..
Peace br,
I wasnt commenting on hindus,,,I didnt say we should call it a house because Jews call it a house,I said that both hebrew and Arabic,(both being a semitic language) have the same meaning for the same word..for example both languages have a similar word for peace..Salaam in Arabic and Shalom/Salem in Hbrew,this doesnt mean that just because Jews who speak Hbrew say it means peace it means that,its merely comparing words from 2 similar languages..that mean the same thing..hence bayt and bet(h),or salaam and salem...or Allah and Elah(aramaic for God)..Arabic,Hebrew and Aramaic are semitic languages that have many words that originated from the same words and have the same meanings..
Peace
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Salaam hamza,
here are some jewish uses if you like them more!
Bet Ha Bracha means House of Blessing. We want to bless you with high quality products made in Israel.
BLESSINGS HAVE THEIR HOUSE????
Ramat Bet Shemesh community
Bet She'arim was one of many small Jewish settlements
The Shin Bet is also responsible for preventing the funding of underground movements and terror groups ...
The Bait in arabic has a number of meanings ,i didn't make up community
check out lanes lexicon if you want to know.God Bless.
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Salaam mz357,
My origianl statement wasBayt and the Hebrew bet(h) mean the same thing form my understanding,it means house....i.e.bet-lechem in Hebrew means house of bread..not community of bread.So you see I said from my understanding they mean the same,I did not say the Arabic didnt have more than one meaning..
But I see you want to make assinine replies,so please refrain from replying to my posts,unless its educational..and showing me from the Arabic my mistakes...
Thanks and Inshallah we all will grow in our knowledge of Quran..
PeaceSalaam hamza,
here are some jewish uses if you like them more!
Bet Ha Bracha means House of Blessing. We want to bless you with high quality products made in Israel.
BLESSINGS HAVE THEIR HOUSE????
Ramat Bet Shemesh community
Bet She'arim was one of many small Jewish settlements
The Shin Bet is also responsible for preventing the funding of underground movements and terror groups ...
The Bait in arabic has a number of meanings ,i didn't make up community
check out lanes lexicon if you want to know.God Bless.
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Salaams Br,
yes i think also we will leave it there.
Gods Blessings.
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Peace,
This is a duplicate of my post on another thread but I think its revelant.
Masaajid were for the people of those times.
Those who witnessed the revelation of the message had specific obligations. The challenge was among them.
Their salaah, obligation/commitment at fixed times, salaatul fajr, and salaatul Isha, were assemblies in places of submitting, masaajid, where the messenger rehearsed the message and it was done at fixed times. They were told to wear good clothes, wash, don?t show up drunk, make room, ask permission to leave etc. Hands were assigned to write it down. They were told to come when he called them to these assemblies. These places were for God alone, not business etc. The hypocrites took a masjid and the messenger was told not to stand in it. Also see 2941. This was the way the message was disseminated to the people. Even during battles the messenger rehearsed and some stayed behind to rehearse with the people not fighting.
There is nothing for the reader to do with this information but to know what happened and grasp some bottom lines. We see the beginning of an orderly society not following religion. Not to establish new masaajid, rehearse the message etc. There is no challenge to the masjidil haraam for us.
The MASJIDIL HARAM is the MAQAMA Abraham. It was the ancient house of Noah. , the BAITUL ATIQ. It was the place sanctioned by the God for rehearsing His message. When the Messenger and followers of the new messenger came and challenged the controllers of this masjid haram, the Bani Israel , the descendants of those who came with Noah, there was fighting for control of it and it was the fulfillment of what was told to Abraham. The people came. The Bani Israel were told to take the maqama, place of Abraham. The messenger came there so there could be no argument against him since he was professing to be from the line of messengers and there was no distinction between any of them. It was the same message as those who built and maintained the sanctioned place of submitting professed. They recognize the message but don?t want to follow an arab. They were changing the message and hiding it. They were lying, calling him a madman and planning against him and those with him. The God told the messenger and those with him to fight them back. Turn them out of the masjid and wherever they turned them out from. Fight them until they stopped fighting. Fight them until deen was for the God alone. The rejecters and the hypocrites had no right to maintain the masjid. Eventually the pagans were banned also. This also, of course, is not an injunction for all mankind. That particular fight is over.
The messenger and his followers were given the speech to say in the challenge (hajj) with these people. There were rules of conduct when they took this challenge, no jadil/arguing, no sex during the day, they were to bring provisions, 10 days, etc. They were devoted in the masjid. .
We have not been enjoined with this ?salaah? or commitment. We have not been enjoined to establish masaajid nor is it necessary. We have not been enjoined to fight for control of the masjid haraam. We have a record in this reading of what they did. We have a record of the permanent moral values enjoined on them as they became an orderly community of those serving the God without religion. They established deen al Islam. They learned to write wills, , they learned to witness contracts, they learned to deal justly and equitably, they learned what was aggression and what was exceeding the limits in retaliation, they learned to be modest and chaste, they learned equality of the sexes, they learned how to marry and divorce to establish correct bloodlines, they learned to avoid excess, they learned how to be clean and eat clean, they learned that slavery was not a good thing, they were warned about the effects of slander, they learned their responsibilities as members of an orderly society and they learned what dragged down a society. We can learn from what was enjoined on those who ?aamanuu? what is important in the establishment of deen al Islam.
There is one big picture and I?ve simplified it for brevity. There is much more to learn in this picture and if you begin with the right understanding you will make the connections. We do not have to guess we have to study. There is guidance and explanations from the guidance. There is no religion in the reading. There are 2 parties of men, the party for the God and the party for Shaytan. The God says this is an ?Arabic Qur'aan?, that translated is, an ?eloquently clearly expressed reading?. Anyone needing references numbers please ask but I know most of you are familiar with the reading enough to find them.
I think that if we are grounded in the gender, number and tense of the words we will be better able to make the link to the verses that explain each other. The little words such as prepositions, parts of speech, i.e, nouns of place and instrument, and the use of vocatives i.e, O and ?li? to indicate the addressee etc. also clarify things. For example in 2012 the translators all say ?in the sacred valley?. Bil or bi does not ever translate into the word ?in?. My grammar references specifically note this as a gross error. Fil or fi is used for ?in? a place and it is consistently used as such in the reading. Therefore, there is a very different understanding in what is being said to Musa in 2012.
We have the complete message in a book. Within these narratives are the locks on the meanings that explain all things in the timeless message to all mankind.
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396-97
The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beingsIn it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,-
those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.Those who deny that theres a physical pilgrimage and we should peform it is the one who DENYS FAITH...
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Peace
You have quoted a mutilated translation of 396
396-97
The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beingsbi-bakkata
Bi with the help of, during, for, by, on account of, according to. It is used as a corroborative to confirm and to make more certain as in 28. According to Arabic usage the words as ashrau (I begin) or aqrau (I recite) would be taken to be understood with this. Thus the phrase bismillah is in fact equivalent to saying I begin with the help and assistance of the designation of the God. It is in accord with the commandment of 961. The English word ?in? is not the equivalent and appropriate of the this particle ba. It also denotes swear, comparison, in place of, for, from, over, on, a part of, at all, in rest of.
Baa-ta to spend the night,
Wudzi?a from wadza?a 3rd person singular, passive perfect to put, set, remove, put off, deliver, give birth, relieve, lay aside, place, appoint.
Wadza?a has been used in the reading in reference to childbirth and laying aside arms. Keeping this in mind we can see that established, put up, raised, appointed etc. are the translators stretch.
Baa-ta is a word that has evolved into many meanings but we are concerned with its root meaning. We spend the night or as we might say quality time or home/house.
Baraka continuity, steadiness, firmness. Mubaarakan Blessings is a poor translation.
Bakka literally means to break the neck.
These are the words used for places
Fi preposition in and is used as in a place
Min from a place
?inda in the presence of, by, at the point of; here; The word denotes the idea of nearness whether it be actual in the sense of possession or ideational, it also denotes a sense of rank or dignity or opinion, time and place. -
Salam Jhamza, all,
Salaam All!
I believe hajj is real pilgrimage and prayers are to be facing a certain direction,since I am not positive where that exact location is I face S-SE from Alabama in the direction of the Middle east and Mecca until we have 100% proof thats its somewhere else..
If I am ever able to make pilgrimage,I will visit both Mecca and Jerusalem,but I will not partake in the obvious pagan rituals.........Surah2197-203 describe the pilgrimage..
Very good approach and may the All-Mighty help you in this process of searching for the truth. Inchallah you will be able to make pilgrimage in Mekka, Jerusalem, and even Petra and the Sinai!!!-), I did it by eliminating what you call the obvious pagan rituals but you have to realize it is not an easy task-) but what matters or at least for me, is doing our best to answer God's call to pilgrimage with a pure heart, rather than indulging into where is what as an excuse of not doing it. People tends to forget that piligrimage-- before anything else -- is about a period of time for an extensive God rememberance at a collective level. For your information (if you have never come across it), you may find the following link interesting http//www.koranlitranslateandtheconspiracy.com/mekka_bakka.htm, this web site has been set up by Brother Mohamed and his daughter, they are the first to provide a literal translation of the Quran. I had a chance to talk to him several times over the phone, he and his wife are very good persons, but he is very passionate about his research on mekka versus bakka, although I don't agree with everything he writes.
And God the All-Mighty knows best. Just sharing the link.
Peace. Myr.Salaams Sister Myr,
Thanks for the reply,and very good reply..I will be sure to read the article on the link and GOD willing We all Will continue to grow in knowledge..
As for the link it didnt work,I had to go to http//www.koranlitranslateandtheconspiracy.com/
Peace.
Hamza