gay people and islam
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and sex (outside of procreation) is nothing more that an act of personal pleasure. So who cares what OTHERS want to do. I am sure they an be told they are headed to hell in a hand basket, and I am also sure most if not all, don't give a hoot. So what does it matter?
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i just checked some other threads on homosexuality on this forum, and i got more insight about this matter.
it's been quite interesting to see different opinions and views from people here, i must admit that i wouldn't even think to post this subject matter on any muslim forums. i just thought that this forum would be more open minded and think out of the box. i would've been kicked out if i dared enough to post it on traditional muslim forums. in certain degrees, this god alone movement is much more progressive than those of its 'competitors', at least it allows self-critics to the scripture, debating it openly and not depend on certain scholars or mullahs to interpret it.
but, i think the issue of homosexuality is still very much stuck, and i guess it will stay this way for many years to come.
i was growing up being taught that homosexuality was wrong, and even now i still think that it's still not natural. but the more i get to know more about gay people, the more i realize that they just can't escape their sexuality. and i'm pretty much stuck in the middle, between what the scriptures say about them and the facts about their unstoppable sexual orientation.
and i completely don't agree when people comparing homosexuality with other forms of perversion.
incest is horrendous sexual crime, and it's not something that can be compared to homosexuality. it's horrible sexual act for both heterosexual and homosexual people.
if heterosexual are not supposed to conduct sexual intercourse with animals, family members, children, or people outside their marriage, neither are homosexual people. so the norm is the same, it's just that the couple got the same gender.
to me, marriage is a form of taking legal responsibilities in relationship with someone else, based on mutual respects and love.
it's been believed for so long time that children can only be born within heterosexual relationship, so when the idea of gay couple adopting children or even human cloning came up, it freaked the religious folks out.
is everything that against the nature wrong? it's very absurd that religious nuts consider everything that people do or invent that is against the nature as against god's will. that is only why catholics and some fundamentalist muslim oppose birth control because they think it's against god's will to create children.
to me, human souls can be brought to world in many different ways, if science can do that. why think that it's challenging god's will? why not just think the other way around? that it proves that god has created the biological world so amazingly that all those science invention can happen. but i think it's another subject matter -B
but anyway, when it comes to sexual relationship, i don't see gender as a problem anymore, because some people were born transexual or with two private parts anyway. i think it just shows that god doesn't actually care about people's gender, we are free souls, genderless. there are girls who are boyish, so are boys who are girlish, but who cares? in some regards, this kind of awareness makes people more egalitarian. -
Peace be upon you peaceful musilm,
Well, would u say that two like minded heterosexual people(or like u say, spiritually minded people) who also happen to be infertile shouldnt get married since their marriage wont create a child?
Before I continue down this line of marriage, please list the reasons besides raising a peaceful, submitting child, that two would have for getting married. I just want to open this up a bit so we can see clearly.
What if the two heterosexual partners are fertile but yet choose not to have a child and instead decide to adopt?
Great! They will be good role models , showing the child how yin and yang complement each other in ALL of the universe.
Should they not get married since they dont intend to create a child?
Yes, they should get married and take up the responsibilty that two others failed to do.
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Peace be upon you Sawtooth,
So who cares what OTHERS want to do
Ahhhhhh, this is the deadliest question! This is a question that is devlish in nature ( I am not calling you devlish). It is opposit to the concept of UNITY that is most important in spirituality. We MUST care what others do, we MUST! It is the NOT CARING that is causing the world to go to hell.
An example that is given in my culture is that a child used to get reprimanded by ANYONE in the neighborhood when they got out of line, but nowadays, no one cares, so the youth have gotten out of hand in in many cases have taken over the neighborhoods and the Older people are scared to say anything.
What if someone wants to sit outside and masturbate in your neighborhood? Should we say "Who cares?"
What if they want to sit on the corner, in full view of young children and smoke crack? Should we make laws for them and give them thier own cable station and represent them on every TV show and Radio show and give them thier own flag?
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topo said
and i completely don't agree when people comparing homosexuality with other forms of perversion.
incest is horrendous sexual crime, and it's not something that can be compared to homosexuality. it's horrible sexual act for both heterosexual and homosexual people.
if heterosexual are not supposed to conduct sexual intercourse with animals, family members, children, or people outside their marriage, neither are homosexual people. so the norm is the same, it's just that the couple got the same gender.Why is incest a horrendous sexual crime? Why can it not be compared to homosexuality? Is it b/c you have simply decided that homosexuality is ok while incest is not? Please educate us on why incest is still wrong while we can be free to have homosexual sex. I also was not comparing the acts of heteros to homos, obviously I do not think that anyone should be engaged in incest...but the idea that incest is wrong as a matter of fact can be justified with the same arguments that prove that homosexuality is wrong. The problem is that there is no talk of incestual couples falling in love and wanting to get married. There aren't TV shows that allow them to portray a "normal" incestual couple so that it would seem normal. There aren't organizations for the acceptance of incest. SO, Please explain to me why incest is wrong while homosexuality is ok simply b/c homosexuals love each other!
is everything that against the nature wrong? it's very absurd that religious nuts consider everything that people do or invent that is against the nature as against god's will. that is only why catholics and some fundamentalist muslim oppose birth control because they think it's against god's will to create children.
Yes, everything that is against nature will cause bad things. For example, using birth control for some women will cause heart attacks, increase cancer rates, etc. There are varying degrees of wrongness as well. I can say that borth control is bad, but I wouldn't call it evil since it doesn't cause great harm for most people. But social ills like cloning and homosexuality are pervasive and can really harm society if uncontrolled.
but anyway, when it comes to sexual relationship, i don't see gender as a problem anymore, because some people were born transexual or with two private parts anyway. i think it just shows that god doesn't actually care about people's gender, we are free souls, genderless. there are girls who are boyish, so are boys who are girlish, but who cares? in some regards, this kind of awareness makes people more egalitarian.
How are some people born transexual? I do know some people are born with both genitals or no genitals. However, they usually lean to one side, or one side is more dominant than the other. And we all pretty much know that these are genetic abnormalities. Nobody claims that these events are normal, else we would all have multiple genitals. I do agree that human beings are genderless, but that is not really the point. The point is sex and sexuality, which is very different from gender.
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Peace everyone,
Please read this article...the social implications of evolutionary thinking. Now, I am not saying that if one holds to evolution he necessarily supports homosexuality. I am saying, however, that nearly all-homosexual leaders are evolutionists, and when pressed for justification of their homosexual life style and behavior, homosexual leaders almost always refer to evolution.
"We are descended from animals," they say; "we have certain animal desires that must be satisfied. Few animals mate for life. And many times animals of the same sex interact sexually. And didn?t all bisexual animals evolve from asexual animals?"
More sophisticated homosexuals would call the homosexual condition a "beneficial mutation." They are "born gay." Others point to certain animal groups, which lessen their reproduction rate when the population fills the ecological niche. "This is a way to fulfill one?s sexual needs without overpopulation; this is natural selection in action." The Bible calls such behavior "reprobate," and homosexual justifications such as are normally given must deny the Biblical mindset, which is founded in the creation of all things by a holy God, who created mankind male and female, in His image, with proper function in a marriage relationship.
Excerpt taken from http//www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=1081
GOD Bless!Oi! Keep evolution out of this. Those homo's who use evolution as an excuse to justify their behaviour is also committing the naturalistic fallacy. Just because one's born with it doesn't mean it's morally right.
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Why isn't there anything about homosexuality in the Quran? It's obvious that homosexuality did exist in the time of the prophets, but still there isn't any kind of verse that just simply says that homosexuality is forbidden. Is it forbidden?
"You practice sex with the men, instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people." 781, 2755 and 2929 -
Have already posted this under the thread "Homosexuality" but thought I'd post it here too. Homosexuality is wrong. Consider Lot's people.
Even though scientific studies these days claim that some people are born with homosexual tendencies (I don't know how far that's true), it is the act that counts. Take adultery, for example. Someone may be tempted to commit adultery but what counts is his refraining from carrying out the act. Similarly, even if a person has homosexual feelings and is tempted to act out on them, what counts is his refraining from carrying out the act. If people can avoid committing adultery, I'm certain they can also avoid committing homosexual acts.
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salam .
i quote M. Asadi here(copied from rationalreality.com)HOMOSEXUALITY THE SCIENTIFIC PERSPECTIVE
Of all topics most popular in today's media, issues concerning homosexuals and homosexuality in general top the list. Homosexuality is generally defined as a sexual relationship between partners of the same sex. Debate concerning its causes and consequences has been going on for many centuries and almost in every period in human history. However, never before in human history has it been granted such wide scale acceptance in western society as it has now.
The question that I seek to answer in this paper is whether such wide scale acceptance should in fact be granted to homosexual behavior? Is such behavior rational, scientifically functional or is it actually detrimental to society in which we live?
HOW ABOUT READING THIS
CLICK HERE HOMOSEXUALITY THE TRUTH & SOCIETY
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first of all, i only visited this website and joined the forum out of curiosity of what the people in this forum think about homosexuality. and obviously, many don't agree with it -B but i noticed that some are still exploring other possibilities to interpret the story of lot. whatever it is, i just hope that people in this forum will not justify violence, either direct or indirect, towards gay people. a shooting and stabbing at gay bar in new bedford just happened, and this kind of violence that is just similar how fundamentalist muslims justify themselves to kill people and destroy facilities that they think are against their teachings.
maybe you all denounce homosexuality, and i respect that, but to take any legal rights away from gay community such as marriage right is not fair at all.
secondly, i'm not trying to educate anyone at all, i know you guys have way much more knowledge than i do. i just posted my opinions, and i respect your opinions on this matter too.
as far as incest is concerned, i think it's different from homosexuality because homosexual relationship involves two adult with full consent and informed decision. while most of incest cases, it's the parents or other relatives who molested the children in the family, which means that there is manipulation of the adults towards the children, and it makes it worse because the children would have mixed feelings, they got angry and scared but at the same time it's their family who did it to them, so many incest cases ended up unreported because the victims feel too ashamed that their own family would do something like that to them.
relationships in the family, is a type of relationship that doesn't involve sex, the children respect the parents, and the parents nurture the children, so do between brothers and sisters. if sex is involved in the relatinship between parents and children, or brother and sister, it will be psychologically conflicting, plus they are biologically related. which is very different from common homosexual relationships that happen between people outside family, that they are not biologically related.
as far as the birth control is concerned, i hope that you guys won't consider it as religiously unlawful, because it's better to plan the family ahead than having many children but not able to raise them properly.
anyway, my argument might not be enough for everyone in this forum, and you guys might have better position in the eyes of god's, but i just hope that tolerance will not be forgotten when living in this diverse society. -
Peace "topo",
but to take any legal rights away from gay community such as marriage right is not fair at all.
... but i just hope that tolerance will not be forgotten when living in this diverse society.JK- You have to define tolerance first. If by tolerance you mean no physical attacks or insults, ok. If you mean that we should stop arguing against you, then no we wont agree. Also if the majority of people in a country decide to make a law to legally punish those are homosexuals then that is their right too and i see thats whats about to happen in the US. Ofcourse all normal court procedures would have to be undergone and individuals should not just take beat up the homos. As for now since such laws do not exist we as individuals still have a right to speak out against hs and we also have a right to argue against you having a right to marry hs, be that accepted by the majority or not, just as you have a right to argue for hs.
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-) we can always have arguments, with respect to each other. and your definition of tolerance is exactly right.
and both political parties in the US have been politicizing this issue, and it must be quite conflicting for people who vote for political party that is against gay marriage but invaded other country for oil -B but that's another story.
i guess i've become too political here, sorry guys. i'm still permanent resident, so i don't vote -B
anyway, i really appreciate all your responds, and there is no end for any arguments, because that is what makes the civilization keeps advancing.
peace to you all! -
topo
as far as incest is concerned, i think it's different from homosexuality because homosexual relationship involves two adult with full consent and informed decision. while most of incest cases, it's the parents or other relatives who molested the children in the family, which means that there is manipulation of the adults towards the children, and it makes it worse because the children would have mixed feelings, they got angry and scared but at the same time it's their family who did it to them, so many incest cases ended up unreported because the victims feel too ashamed that their own family would do something like that to them.
I do know that. In my original post on the topic, I said that I would disregard incestual rape, etc b/c I know that it does happen. However, my point was that even if a both parties consent, incest would still be socially unacceptable by virute of what it is. For example, Hitler and his niece reportedly had an affair together despite the fact that they were related. It was a consentual relationship that most people think is quite twisted.
By the way, welcome to the forum -
Hi idolfree1,
This is an interesting discussion. Perhaps u should create a seperate thread and move our conversation there?
Peace be upon you peaceful musilm,
Well, would u say that two like minded heterosexual people(or like u say, spiritually minded people) who also happen to be infertile shouldnt get married since their marriage wont create a child?
Before I continue down this line of marriage, please list the reasons besides raising a peaceful, submitting child, that two would have for getting married. I just want to open this up a bit so we can see clearly.
I wouldnt say the only purpose of marriage is ''creating a child''.
Its can be a part of it....a significant part........but then again some may decide against it.......Its totally a personal decission.Its difficult to say what marriage stands for....but I shall try to put forth my views/ definitions
I think, two people get married to unify(physically, spiritually etc) in a bond of companionship, love, respect...... Its a legal, spiritual, physical union.... a commitment to see through the journey of life together .........a bond that brings two like minded people together into a relationship of commitment and love .
A general definition of marriage is that it is a social contract between two individuals that unites their lives legally, economically and emotionally.
Being married also gives legitmacy to sexual relations within the marriage.What if the two heterosexual partners are fertile but yet choose not to have a child and instead decide to adopt?
Great! They will be good role models , showing the child how yin and yang complement each other in ALL of the universe.
So, then are u saying marriage is not only about CREATING A CHILD?
Should they not get married since they dont intend to create a child?
Yes, they should get married and take up the responsibilty that two others failed to do.
Good, We agree here.
So, why cant two gay people get married and adopt a child?Peace!
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Peace,
So, why cant two gay people get married and adopt a child?
Because its unatural, its wrong and its againt the will of the creator as according to the Quran. If you do not believe in the book of God and common sense then its OK .
Well, its common sense that brings forth the question. wink
Whats unnatural about 2 men or 2 women raising a child?
Dont single parents raise their children on their own these days? wink
R they bad parents?What about Angelina Jolie? She is single and she adopted 2 kids. Is she a bad parent?
Peace!
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Peace be upon you Peaceful Muslim,
I started to respond but I want to take my time with this, and actually, I want to create a seperate thread as you requested.
For now, let me just conclude here by saying that no one plugs a plug into another plug, nor do they try plug a socket into a socket, the plug and socket were CREATED for a purpose, anything alse is a deviation. This is OBSERVABLE LAW. Thats the ultimat proof, especially over any subjective example like "they love each other", etc.
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Hi idolfree1,
For now, let me just conclude here by saying that no one plugs a plug into another plug, nor do they try plug a socket into a socket, the plug and socket were CREATED for a purpose, anything alse is a deviation. This is OBSERVABLE LAW. Thats the ultimat proof, especially over any subjective example like "they love each other", etc.
Is life all about plugs and sockets? wink
Is there more to life?Peace!