A Miraculous Conspiracy Theory about Mecca
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Thank you brother Ayman
But hey that list of Arabic words that means destruction, did you get it from the Quran? lol
See bro the Ba has refuted your silly claim fair and square, brother JM confirmed that with the link, now in the link that JM posted I could not find one use that describe the flawed theory you are promoting, why you didn't respond to that?
See, you only resorted to discrediting my fluency in the Arabic Language, which is very obvious to notice, I refuted you using the Quran and you brought some hearsay by people we never know you even changed Yusif Ali translation and told us it is by Yusuf Ali, this is wrong bro, I didn't bring a refute by humans bro, I only brought refutes by Allah that make more sense to anyone who just follow the common sense, not confusing puzzles like what you are proposing
what you did by trying to discredit my fluency in Arabic will not work, because I know the grammar far better than you and I will always back what i say by the Quran while you are failing to do as such, show us another verse in the Quran that tells us clealy that Mecca means destruction in the context
you are bringing a common word that is used for a city and used only once in the Quran then severly manipulating its intended clear meaning by Allah to serve your own whatever
I have to remind everyone (including myself) with this verse from the Quran
"O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter. "
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Peace to all
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Peace JHamza,
The more important question is what does a particular location have anything to do with our obligation to The God.
The only thing we need to know is that GOD,not you,not me,not Muhammad,Not Jesus or Abraham told us to do so..Thats our obligation to GOD,TO DO WHAT HE ASKS.Its that simple.
Whats so hard to understand? Thats one reason why its called Islam or Submission to the will of Allah.When pious Jews knock their head on the wailing wall they think that God told them to do so (i.e. they believe that they are submitting to The God). When pious Christians venerate Jesus, they think that The God told them to do so. When pious Muslims mindlessly spin seven times around a cube, they think that The God told them to do so. They are all doing what they imagine God to be asking.
The God gave us a brain so that we can accomplish our purpose. He gave us the brain to think and understand so that we can correctly obey Him. He didn't give it to us so that we can blindly follow what others tell us The God asked from us.What is the purpose of the temple of the Jews at that location? Did having it at this location or at any location make them more righteous?
From what I know its where Abraham went to sacrifice his son,then later GOD told the Isrealites to build a temple there.No having the temple there or anywhere else doesnt make some one more righteous,Obeying GOD makes a person more righteous.
Great, you just found the answer for what a real "masjid" is. It is not a building. It is an institute of obedience to The God.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace ayman,
Peace JHamza,
When pious Jews knock their head on the wailing wall they think that God told them to do so (i.e. they believe that they are submitting to The God). When pious Christians venerate Jesus, they think that The God told them to do so. When pious Muslims mindlessly spin seven times around a cube, they think that The God told them to do so. They are all doing what they imagine God to be asking.Your beating around the proverbial bush there..I said when GOD Tells us something,not what sects or traditions tells us..You do know the difference dont you?I think you do...Allah doesnt tell us these things(there not in the Quran in other words)..
The God gave us a brain so that we can accomplish our purpose. He gave us the brain to think and understand so that we can correctly obey Him. He didn't give it to us so that we can blindly follow what others tell us The God asked from us.
Yes GOD did,thats why Im not going along with every little thing Quran Alone people or Progressive Muslims say is fact.
Great, you just found the answer for what a real "masjid" is. It is not a building. It is an institute of obedience to The God.
True masjid means place of worship,but a building can also be a place of worship...not An object to worship...
Peace -
Great, you just found the answer for what a real "masjid" is. It is not a building. It is an institute of obedience to The God.
True masjid means place of worship,but a building can also be a place of worship...not An object to worship...
PeaceAny place where Allah is worshipped is a Masjid
peace
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I agree with JHamza... it is the divine that is telling us something, not anyone else. The Qur'an is one such message, and so we have to read it and see what we're being told. Has it crossed anyone's mind that perhaps a slightly different message is destined for everyone, and that our brains are designed in such a way as to pick up the message that's for us (well, as long as we don't allow our personal prejudices to enter the picture).
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Peace JHamza,
Great, you just found the answer for what a real "masjid" is. It is not a building. It is an institute of obedience to The God.
True masjid means place of worship,but a building can also be a place of worship...not An object to worship...
What does a building have to do with "worship"? Do you only "worship" The God when you are in that building?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Claurianta,
I agree with JHamza... it is the divine that is telling us something, not anyone else. The Qur'an is one such message, and so we have to read it and see what we're being told. Has it crossed anyone's mind that perhaps a slightly different message is destined for everyone, and that our brains are designed in such a way as to pick up the message that's for us (well, as long as we don't allow our personal prejudices to enter the picture).
We are all on the same path, the straight path when we set up our direction wherever we are towards the truth from our Lord. Some of us will be at different points along this path but it is OK as long as we are in the right direction.
Peace,
Ayman
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We are all on the same path, the straight path when we set up our direction wherever we are towards the truth from our Lord. Some of us will be at different points along this path but it is OK as long as we are in the right direction.
Peace,
Ayman
Agreed, but I think one thing we have to ask ourselves is whether everyone has the same exact path, or if the Qur'an actually shows us a number of acceptable path, depending for example to what level we interpret the Qur'an figuratively, or what meaning we attach to words. I think they are many parts of the Qur'an where there are many valid interpretations, and we just have to follow the one which seems most appropriate for our own spiritual development. I am sick and tired of the whole interpretation that religion is a one-size-fits-all kind of thing. That kind of thinking leads only to control, prejudice and honestly, war. Honestly I think that anyone that rejects someone else's religious freedom is breaking one of God's most fundamental rules. I believe the the Qur'an never advocates any kind of action against other religions, except in strict and proportional self-defence. I think it's quite clear that God is the one who has the right to make judgements on religion, and giving ourselves the right to judge whether another's religion is appropriate or not is equivalent to making ourselves into a partner of God.
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Salaamun alaikum all,
"Batnun" can indeed mean valley (Dictionary of Holy Qur'aan by Abdul Mannan Omar) and "bibatni makkata" in 4824 could also mean in the valley of Makkah as claurianta has been suggesting. That meaning would fit in the context of 4824 and still does not prove the existence of the city of Makkah but would just prove the existence of the valley of Makkah as per claurianta. Brother Ayman and brother Ahmad, what do you think of that alternative meaning ?
The pagan temple (Chobar) must have been in that valley of Makkah. Maybe the city of Makkah was later constructed in the valley of Makkah and the pagan temple in Makkah (Chobar) was then renamed as the Kaaba. Maybe that is how the pagans of valley of Makkah were able to deceive the millions of muslims as to the location of Kaaba without arousing much suspicion, especially when there was already confusion among them as to what the real qiblah (focal point) was, because of the change in qiblah from a physical place to another physical place for the purpose of testing the believers and then the final change to a mental qiblah of the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden (al-masjid al-haram). That would explain the scarcity of the physical and historical evidence of the change of Kaaba from Bakkah to Makkah after the death of Prophet Muhammad, especially if the final qiblah was set up just before the death of Prophet Muhammad.
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Salaamun alaikum all,
"Batnun" can indeed mean valley (Dictionary of Holy Qur'aan by Abdul Mannan Omar) and "bibatni makkata" in 4824 could also mean in the valley of Makkah as claurianta has been suggesting. That meaning would fit in the context of 4824 and still does not prove the existence of the city of Makkah but would just prove the existence of the valley of Makkah as per claurianta. Brother Ayman and brother Ahmad, what do you think of that alternative meaning ?
Salam brother
I actually stated earlier to brother claurianta that the valley of Mecca as a place is very valid understanding as well as long as it referes to a place, now we may chernge the discussion into where we find this valley of Mecca
peace
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Peace Claurianta,
Agreed, but I think one thing we have to ask ourselves is whether everyone has the same exact path, or if the Qur'an actually shows us a number of acceptable path, depending for example to what level we interpret the Qur'an figuratively, or what meaning we attach to words.
Perhaps repeating what I said, but while providing the references will help
We are all on the same path, the straight path (2142), WHEN we set up our direction wherever we are (2144) towards the truth from our Lord (2144 & 2149).
I think that everyone here will agree that the straight path is figurative (well except perhaps Sunnis who think that it is a literal path over hell). So if the straight path is not a highway to Mecca then think about the real direction you should take and the true direction you shoudl be facing all the time WHEREVER you are.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace tanveermd,
"Batnun" can indeed mean valley (Dictionary of Holy Qur'aan by Abdul Mannan Omar) and "bibatni makkata" in 4824 could also mean in the valley of Makkah as claurianta has been suggesting. That meaning would fit in the context of 4824 and still does not prove the existence of the city of Makkah but would just prove the existence of the valley of Makkah as per claurianta. Brother Ayman and brother Ahmad, what do you think of that alternative meaning ?
Classical Arabic dictionaries give the following as one of the meanings of "batn"
Batn In its middle and in its midst
This is why Yusuf Ali correctly used "midst" for "batn" in his translation.
From a linguistic point of view, the common meaning "in the midst of destruction" perfectly fits in the context of war from the passage.
From a logical point of view, if the clear common meaning perfectly fits, then why take the dubious proper name meaning instead?
Add to this all the facts about the complete absence of any reference to Mecca prior to the 8th century CE and really the only reason why people are advocating the proper name is dogmatic attachment to what they blindly inherited from their forefathers.
The pagan temple (Chobar) must have been in that valley of Makkah. Maybe the city of Makkah was later constructed in the valley of Makkah and the pagan temple in Makkah (Chobar) was then renamed as the Kaaba. Maybe that is how the pagans of valley of Makkah were able to deceive the millions of muslims as to the location of Kaaba without arousing much suspicion, especially when there was already confusion among them as to what the real qiblah (focal point) was, because of the change in qiblah from a physical place to another physical place for the purpose of testing the believers and then the final change to a mental qiblah of the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden (al-masjid al-haram). That would explain the scarcity of the physical and historical evidence of the change of Kaaba from Bakkah to Makkah after the death of Prophet Muhammad, especially if the final qiblah was set up just before the death of Prophet Muhammad.
The focal point was only changed once, from physical to non-physical.
This is why in 2142 the foolish people wonder why people "turned away/rejected" the original focal point, they are answered that the reason is that The God guides whom He wills to a straight path. Of course, the straight path is not physical.
Peace,
Ayman
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two English teachers, native English speakers, say the article is needed to express the second meaning you propose. It has to be "I am in the sunshine"
I say it because maybe it changes the meaning of your example.It was just an example which makes sense to a native speaker. But for correctness sake let's use
"I AM IN TROUBLE"
instead.
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Add to this all the facts about the complete absence of any reference to Mecca prior to the 8th century CE and really the only reason why people are advocating the proper name is dogmatic attachment to what they blindly inherited from their forefathers.
While I do understand and respect your strong attachment to this point of view, and while I accept it as a possibility, I think you should realise that it is in fact possible that the aya refers to a physical place. This acknowledgement doesn't really change your argument. If there was a valley or area that was commonly known as Mecca, it would not show up on historical record unless there was actually something significant there. If it was just a barren valley for example, the locals would know of it, but there would have been no reason for historians to note it down.
Now, for all of those who want to find the location of the house of Abraham, perhaps you should follow 396 and search for Bakka, not Mecca. I trust you will find it in the vicinity of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. The physical masjid al haram would then most likely be the Temple Mount.
I think that the most preposterous thing about this whole Mecca thing is that the traditionalists use 396 to point to Mecca, while it clearly states Bakka. It isn't logical to call a place Bakka in one place and Mecca in another. If both are physical places, they cannot be the same place. At Bakka we have the House of Abraham, and at Mecca we have, well, a valley and not much more. So as far as the pilgrimage (hajj) is concerned, it seems to be either the Temple Mount (today al-Aqsa Mosque) or somewhere in that vicinity. Btw, remark that the pilgrimage is to be made to the House at Bakka, and not to masjid al haram.Another question. The arabic for what is translated as House, I see beit. Now, is this house actually a physical location? If I remember correclty, in the Torah there is a figurative use of the word house... as in the "House of Israel". Could it somehow refer to a people(=the monotheists), or the land (=Palestine), or a city (=all of Jerusalem)? Does the arabic beit have to be a house - I mean what if someone knocks down the house - where are people supposed to make a pilgrimage to?
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Can you please explain which Masjid Al Haram God is referring in the following verse and which city it was located. My understanding is that it is Mecca and Masjid Al Haram is the present day kaba.
928 O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will God enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for God is All-knowing, All-wise.
Ahmed Baghat your explantaion will also be helpful to understand this verse.
Peace Brother
I actually responded to a member on Faith Freedom regarding this verse, I managed to find it so I will paste it here, but because it is a long one and may not be answering your question directly, I may say something first, it is hard to believe that all these years we have been deceived without a trace and when the traces appear they look like dust in thin air without any compelling merit but conjecture and assumptions, 4824 clearly told us it was a state of peace between the two, it also told us that it was after a Muslim victory, further more by looking at the grammatical components of the Arabic sentence that suppose to be a perfect sentence by Allah we see one single letter (it is considered a word in the Arabic language) that clearly shows us that Batn Mecca is a place , because if it is suppose to mean ?from the midst of destruction? THEN IT HAS TO BE MIN BATN MECCA, now we know from the history that the Muslims took Mecca without a single fight with the infidels, they just gave it to them peacefully, the whole sura actually is named to indicate this incident of the peaceful conquering of Mecca, the names of the suras were put down during Uthman which is a mere 20 years after the prophet death,, i.e. the Sura names were created during Uthman time not during Bukhari time and it will be total non sense to assume that Uthman deceived us all, this peaceful conquering of Mecca is actually mentioned in verse 4824, it is the bit where it says ? after He had given you victory over them? and the victory is ?the conquering of Mecca peacefully without any fight from the two and this again was mentioned in the same verse?, based on the historical evidences as extracted from the Quran and trusted sources the Masjid Al Haram must be Al Kabba in S A and should be near a city called Mecca
Here is my comment on Faith freedom, sorry if it is a bit off topic but I guess it will be good to read especially it is used by our enemies to attack and defame our religion and say our religion suggest all infidels are dirty
The verses you posted are related to a very well known incident regarding the Kabba, you know, the Kabba was was a place for all to come to worship God and also for trading, even the Kafiroon used to go there and do whatever, most of them used to go around the kabba as method of worship God, the Kafiroon also used to do a very indecent act, they used to do the Tawaf (going around the Kabba NAKED), exactly like the filthy scenes we see in the Mardi Gras and this is when these verses in Sura 9 was revealed (this is the last sura that was revealed which means was at the last days of Mohammad, you will also notice that it does not have the Bismillah (in the name of Allah??.)?, some say that it does not have the Bismillah because it is full of threats to those Kafiroon and their filthy acts around the Kabba, but somehow I can?t buy this, anyway the objective and the message is clear and was to reclaim the Kabba ?the house of Allah?, looking at all the verses that I brought in here we will see the picture crystal clear, I will list the verses in English then the original language in Arabic, and my walkthrough will follow
1- (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
2- So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.
3- And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.
4- Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
5- So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
6- And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.7- How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Messenger; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
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(7)-> Verse 1, when the incident happened Allah wanted Mohammad to make an agreement with those crazy kafiroon, by telling them that they should stop their Mardi Gras non sense and act properly around the Kabba and they will have immunity (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement. , the fact about the Kabba Mardi Gras is known from the history records
-> Verse 2, - There is 4 scared months in the lunar year, humans used to come to the Kabba in these 4 months, one month of these 4 is the one when the great hajj will be performed, it is like, in the other 3 months they used to do a minor version of hajj, during this time also the Muslims are not allowed to Fight the enemy ?UNLESS IT IS A MUST?, the verse is just mentioning these months and also a warning to the Kafiroon regarding those 4 sacred months, ?So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.,
-> Verse 3, this is where I believe the warning was given to the Kafiroon not to do Tawaf naked around the Kabba on the day of the great Hajj ? And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters;, we can see straight after the warning that repenting from this evil act was on the offer for them, ?therefore if you repent, it will be better for you?, but of they insist of this evil act ? and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve. ? similar warning to the one in 92
-> Verse 4, here is things will become a bit clearer, sure some Kafiroon are intelligent enough to understand what they were doing is crazy, especially after the great warning was given accompanied with an offer to repent,- ?Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty). , see how clear it is, you have to also know that the words ? fulfill their agreement to the end of their term? means that no Muslim should fight during these 4 months, but if they want to fight us to take the Kabba ?for example to do the naked Tawaf? then the agreement is to wait after the end of these 4 months then bring it on Kafiroon
-> Verse 5, and if the 4 sacred months finished and the kafiroon want to bring it on and fight and kill us then we should fight and kill them ?So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,?, then if they repent and stop fighting us, ?then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. , you have to know that salat and zakat mentioned in here does not really mean the Islamic salat and the Islamic zakat, in fact these practises were known to Noah and Abraham people, that is why the kafiroon were coming to the Kaaba anyway, to make salat to their Idols and pay zakat (sort of tax) that will be used to help the poor, therefore you took it as they must be Muslims otherwise they should be killed, THIS IS 100% WRONG, because the Quran word for anyone to be a Muslim is ?Aslam? or ?Aslamo?, so the above warning is only for the kafiroon to comply with the new law set by Allah after the reclaim of the Kabba and the establishment of the Strong Islam State at the end of the prophet days.
-> Verse 6, will confirm what I said about verse 5, you will see that Allah is still referring to them as idolaters but is telling the believers that they MUST PROTECT THEM if they seek protection BUT THEY MUST COMPLY WITH THE AGREEMENT ABOVE IN VERSE 5, ?And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him?, the main reason to protect that peaceful Kafir is simply he/she may listen to the last message of our God? so that he may hear the Word of Allah,?, Mohammad must also convey him/her to his place of safety and afterward convey him to his place of safety. simply Allah want us to help these peaceful kafiroon because they lack the knowledge of Allah That is because they are a folk who know not.?
-> Verse 7, We see Allah is summing it up beautifully How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Messenger; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty)., WHAT ELSE I CAN SAY BRO?, ? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty)?
Moving on to verse 929, I brought in verse 828 as it is required for my walk through, firstly verse is the one regarding reclaiming the kaaba, i.e. the kafiroon will not be allowed to come near it any more, this is a law from Allah regarding His house that Abraham built
28- O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
29- Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
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(29)-> Verse 28, Reclaiming the Kabba O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year;, don?t take it literally as they are dirty, rather they are not clean spiritually and that is what the verse means, and because after this law is forced the believers will loose a lot of trade with the kafiroon who used to come to the Kabba during these 4 scared months therefore Allah is warning the believers from worrying about loosing financially due to that new law ?and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.?
- Verse 29, is simply the same law we discussed earlier, that the Kafiroon who will not pay the Tax of the land ?you know the law of any land? then they have to be fought, and if the pay the tax the prophet must convey them to a place of safety and protect them ? Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection?
Peace be with you
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Salaamun alaikum Ayman,
The focal point was only changed once, from physical to non-physical.
Thank you for the clarification. Upon pondering further on the signs 2142-145, I agree with your understanding regarding focal point being changed only once.
Regarding bibatni makkata, I am still not clear if it means "in the midst of destruction" as per your understanding or the alternative possible "in the valley of makkah". Does the sign 4824 say "after that he gave you victory over them" or does it say "after he gave you victory on them" ?
Following translators have translated as "AFTER THAT"
4824
Literal And He is who prevented/stopped their hands from you, and your hands from them with inside Mecca from after that He gave you victory/triumph on them, and God was/is with what you make/do seeing/knowing .
Yusuf Ali And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
Arberry It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, in the hollow of Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. God sees the things you do.
George Sale It was He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, in the valley of Mecca; after that He had given you the victory over them And God saw that which ye did.
Malik It is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of Mecca, after that He had given you victory over them, and Allah was watching all your actions.The following majority of translators translate as "AFTER"
Free-Minds And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.
Rashad Khalifa He is the One who withheld their hands of aggression against you, and withheld your hands of aggression against them in the valley of Mecca, after He had granted you victory over them. GOD is Seer of everything you do.
Shakir And He it is Who held back their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of Mecca after He had given you victory over them; and Allah is Seeing what you do.
Pickthal And He it is Who hath withheld men's hands from you, and hath withheld your hands from them, in the valley of Mecca, after He had made you victors over them. Allah is Seer of what ye do.
Hilali/Khan And He it is Who has withheld their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makkah, after He had made you victors over them. And Allah is Ever the All-Seer of what you do.
Maulana Ali And He it is Who held back their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of Makkah after He had given you victory over them. And Allah is ever Seer of what you do.
QXP And He it is Who has withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the Valley of Makkah after He has given you victory over them. And Allah was indeed Watcher over all your actions.
Sarwar It is He who kept peace between you and the people of the valley of Mecca after having given you a victory over them. God is Well Aware of what you do.The first meaning of "after that" would imply that Allah withheld their hands against each other FIRST and then AFTER THAT granted believers victory. If that meaning is true then "in the midst of destruction" meaning is more appropriate for "bibatni makkata".
The second meaning would imply that Allah withheld their hands from each other AFTER he had already given believers victory, and if that is true then the withholding of hands would be AFTER the war, and could be in a time of peace, making the meaning "in valley of makkah" more appropriate.
Interestingly 8/13 of the above translators translate "bibatni makkata" as "the VALLEY of makkah" !!!! and this translation in no way implies presence of CITY of makkah.
Everyone's comments on the above will be much appreciated.
Best regards,
Tanveer
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Peace Myr,
From the search above, it is obvious "batni" has a meaning or a sense of "inside", "core" "heart" "belly" of something/place. I could not see in these verses any meaning of "destruction" as such. And God the All-Mighty knows best.
I think that you misunderstood. It the word "makkat" not "batn" that is the problem. Everyone pretty much agrees that "batn" means "inside a place" or "in the midst of something". The question is inside/in the midst of what? "destruction", which is the meaning of the common noun "makkat" or a place whose proper name is Makkat?
So the choice is between understanding and translating the word "makkat" or taking it as a meaningless label.
Peace,
Ayman
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de
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Peace tanveermd,
Regarding bibatni makkata, I am still not clear if it means "in the midst of destruction" as per your understanding or the alternative possible "in the valley of makkah". Does the sign 4824 say "after that he gave you victory over them" or does it say "after he gave you victory on them" ?
I think that simply "after" is the correct one.
When one reads the passage, one gets the impression of something out of the ordinary happening. The picture one gets is of two warring parties whose hands were almost getting one another. One also gets the impression from the next part (4825) that those who have faith were going to win anyway regardless of whether there was a cease fire just before the hand to hand fighting or not. One also gets the impression that this was an urban situation that would involve street fighting NOT a desert valley because of the presence of non-combatant men and women as clear from 4825.
So the picture we get from the passage is of a war in an urban area (a city). Such urban area would have been heavily fortified against external attacks as is normal for all cities in ancient times, especially when there is war going on. Since there was a cease right at the time when hand-to-hand combat was almost starting, this means that the city's various layers of fortifications, walls, defenses, etc. have already been breached and destroyed and the city defendants were cornered.
So here is what is out of the ordinary and amazing about the situation. The invading army that has already won sure victory was pouring into the destroyed city and hand-to-hand combat was about to erupt since despite surely losing the defenders had no where to go. Suddenly, in the midst of all this destruction cool heads prevail on the part of the invading army and the fighting is stopped.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman