Modern Holidays?
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I am aware that most modern holidays(like halloween,xmas,and others) have pagan origins,but if people keep the holidays not to honor pagan gods etc and just keep them as time for spending with family and friends,Do you think it would be wrong?Or do you think we are allowed to keep them?Does the Quran say its wrong?
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As SAlaam Alaikum,
This is my opinion
I believe that celebrating Christmas and Hannukkah, and other non-Muslim "still quiite religious based" holidays are wrong.
Some Muslims try to argue that Christmas has become secular, therefore it's ok to celebrate. It is my opinion that Christmas is still far from secular, and it's only the media that really perpetuates it as "secular" becuase they don't wish to offend non-Christians... but it is my opinion that in the homes of people, it is still quite religious! So i believe that celebrating Christmas, such as buying gifts, wrapping them up, and not giving them until the 25th is wrong for a Muslim to participate in. And even amoung that, it is still generally assumed that if you are celebrating Christmas then you are a Christian...
Now I don't believe that getting together on the holidays of other religions is wrong. Why? Because often this is the time where most of the kids are out of school, and parents are off of work, so it's a perfect time to have a large family get together. Plus everything is closed, so you basically have nothing to do, so why not go hang out with the family? If this becomes a tradition of a Muslim family... getting together on Christmas, I don't see a problem... as long as they don't become so wrapped on the date itself. Like suddenly they are worried about "not making it in time for Christmas".
I believe that celebrating holloween, St. Patrick day, 4th of July, Thanskgiving are ok to celebrate with spirit (like dressing in green, setting off fireworks, and making a turkey) are ok though beucase those are very secular holidays and I don't believe that in general anyone is going to reassonably mistake your religious affiliation by celebrating them.
While as celebrating Xmas it's quite reasonable for someone to mistake you as a Christian.
I'm unsure as to what the Qurna says... but I know we aren't suppose to act like non-believers.
salaam
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As SAlaam Alaikum,
This is my opinion
I believe that celebrating Christmas and Hannukkah, and other non-Muslim "still quiite religious based" holidays are wrong.
Some Muslims try to argue that Christmas has become secular, therefore it's ok to celebrate. It is my opinion that Christmas is still far from secular, and it's only the media that really perpetuates it as "secular" becuase they don't wish to offend non-Christians... but it is my opinion that in the homes of people, it is still quite religious! So i believe that celebrating Christmas, such as buying gifts, wrapping them up, and not giving them until the 25th is wrong for a Muslim to participate in. And even amoung that, it is still generally assumed that if you are celebrating Christmas then you are a Christian...
Now I don't believe that getting together on the holidays of other religions is wrong. Why? Because often this is the time where most of the kids are out of school, and parents are off of work, so it's a perfect time to have a large family get together. Plus everything is closed, so you basically have nothing to do, so why not go hang out with the family? If this becomes a tradition of a Muslim family... getting together on Christmas, I don't see a problem... as long as they don't become so wrapped on the date itself. Like suddenly they are worried about "not making it in time for Christmas".
I believe that celebrating holloween, St. Patrick day, 4th of July, Thanskgiving are ok to celebrate with spirit (like dressing in green, setting off fireworks, and making a turkey) are ok though beucase those are very secular holidays and I don't believe that in general anyone is going to reassonably mistake your religious affiliation by celebrating them.
While as celebrating Xmas it's quite reasonable for someone to mistake you as a Christian.
I'm unsure as to what the Qurna says... but I know we aren't suppose to act like non-believers.
salaam
Salaam NoProgressive,
Why would it be different between Halloween,St Patricks Day and Xmas?They all have both Christian and Pagan Influences..Halloween originated with the Celts as a Night of the Dead,Catholics adopted it as the night before All Saints-hence All Hallows.St Patricks day is basically a Catholic(polytheist) holiday but has deveopled into a time for drunken revelry.And Xmas has all the above,Paganism wraped in Christian trappings. -
Salaam JHamza,
Salaam NoProgressive,
Why would it be different between Halloween,St Patricks Day and Xmas?They all have both Christian and Pagan Influences..Halloween originated with the Celts as a Night of the Dead,Catholics adopted it as the night before All Saints-hence All Hallows.St Patricks day is basically a Catholic(polytheist) holiday but has deveopled into a time for drunken revelry.And Xmas has all the above,Paganism wraped in Christian trappings.The question should be how far back do you want to go when it comes to origins? I mean we can go wayyy back with many things that we probably do, and see how they originated in paganism... but they no longer carry the same meaning, therefore they mean something different now. we live in the present, not in the past.
salaam
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Some Muslims try to argue that Christmas has become secular, therefore it's ok to celebrate. It is my opinion that Christmas is still far from secular, and it's only the media that really perpetuates it as "secular" becuase they don't wish to offend non-Christians... but it is my opinion that in the homes of people, it is still quite religious!
Im sorry to dissapoint you guy?s but xmas is NOTHING BUT pagan!
It is always was, always is and always will be the resurrection of our new sun/son, and this is a story and date used by all the "saviours" all the "lights of the world" all the "God?s lambs" for their rise back to life after they had been dead for 3 days. So they changed a few bells and whistles like people always have when the concouring power has demonised or changed the evil "pagan" rites of their captives. Good examples of this is Ishtar (easter), Devil stemming from sanskrit Deva wich means holy/angles or associated with holy.....guess who won this quest of the indians and persians grins
For xmas we have a little "juleklappen" from lapland, a shaman giving out amanita muscaria mushrooms, wich is why coca cola later invented their red shaman santa, as this was the time of the year when the shaman would crawl through the CHIMNEY to deliver the shrooms from his bag....ever heard that theme before....you dont belive me? Check this out then
http//www.geocities.com/noxmasforme/SHAMAN1.gif
Im telling you that all this is NOTHING but storys we have been told to belive and has for way too long. The relegions stemming out of the middle eastern area is a hodge podge of stuff collaborated from all over the place, mostly from shamanism (dark shamanism mind you with blood rites and mock cannibalism, as they still have in the xtian churches) but basically just anything they came long when they fought eachother.
Abraham = Ab Ram or Ram the hindu god
Moses = If there was a Moses as we belive in it, he was the leader of a moon worshipping cult (SIN (the moon god) AE or AI mountain. Wich would make mount sinai ...mountain of the moon god).
Solomon...gimme a break. Why would the BRIT ISH people, when they translated the "word of God", translate schlmoe as SOL OM ON? Are there something thez are not telling us about their origin i wonder.
And it just goes on...that said...There is an important lesson to be learned in these storys wich is y they are being repeated across time and cultures (everybody has a Noah and flood, everybody has an Adam and Eve etc), but dont go look for any solomon anywhere in history because you wont find him!.Why im i telling you this? Because my stand on all these traditions is that they need to go away, and we should find some proper ones with focus on God rather than plastic fantastic, sun worship, penis worship and whatever sillyness snuck their way in to everybodys theology along the way. Why do we want to preserve that, you say?
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Christians celebrate Christmas as the birthday of Christ. That the date coincides with previous pagan ritual days is simply a side effect of Christianity seeking to replace pagan rituals with Christian rituals, as you partly pointed out.
Easter is when Christians celebrate the resurrection of Christ. Date likely chosen for similar historical reasons.
The secularization of both holidays (holy days) by non-believers should not be misconstrued as Christians changing the meaning and significance of the holidays.
I certainly understand if Muslims do not think it proper to celebrate Christian holidays (though the Quran does say Christ was a prophet of God), but that does not mean Christians are celebrating pagan rituals on those days.
Thanks.
/oneway
Some Muslims try to argue that Christmas has become secular, therefore it's ok to celebrate. It is my opinion that Christmas is still far from secular, and it's only the media that really perpetuates it as "secular" becuase they don't wish to offend non-Christians... but it is my opinion that in the homes of people, it is still quite religious!
Im sorry to dissapoint you guy?s but xmas is NOTHING BUT pagan!
It is always was, always is and always will be the resurrection of our new sun/son, and this is a story and date used by all the "saviours" all the "lights of the world" all the "God?s lambs" for their rise back to life after they had been dead for 3 days. So they changed a few bells and whistles like people always have when the concouring power has demonised or changed the evil "pagan" rites of their captives. Good examples of this is Ishtar (easter), Devil stemming from sanskrit Deva wich means holy/angles or associated with holy.....guess who won this quest of the indians and persians grins
For xmas we have a little "juleklappen" from lapland, a shaman giving out amanita muscaria mushrooms, wich is why coca cola later invented their red shaman santa, as this was the time of the year when the shaman would crawl through the CHIMNEY to deliver the shrooms from his bag....ever heard that theme before....you dont belive me? Check this out then
http//www.geocities.com/noxmasforme/SHAMAN1.gif
Im telling you that all this is NOTHING but storys we have been told to belive and has for way too long. The relegions stemming out of the middle eastern area is a hodge podge of stuff collaborated from all over the place, mostly from shamanism (dark shamanism mind you with blood rites and mock cannibalism, as they still have in the xtian churches) but basically just anything they came long when they fought eachother.
Abraham = Ab Ram or Ram the hindu god
Moses = If there was a Moses as we belive in it, he was the leader of a moon worshipping cult (SIN (the moon god) AE or AI mountain. Wich would make mount sinai ...mountain of the moon god).
Solomon...gimme a break. Why would the BRIT ISH people, when they translated the "word of God", translate schlmoe as SOL OM ON? Are there something thez are not telling us about their origin i wonder.
And it just goes on...that said...There is an important lesson to be learned in these storys wich is y they are being repeated across time and cultures (everybody has a Noah and flood, everybody has an Adam and Eve etc), but dont go look for any solomon anywhere in history because you wont find him!.Why im i telling you this? Because my stand on all these traditions is that they need to go away, and we should find some proper ones with focus on God rather than plastic fantastic, sun worship, penis worship and whatever sillyness snuck their way in to everybodys theology along the way. Why do we want to preserve that, you say?
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Peace Oneway
Christians celebrate Christmas as the birthday of Christ. That the date coincides with previous pagan ritual days is simply a side effect of Christianity seeking to replace pagan rituals with Christian rituals, as you partly pointed out.
No it is simply christianity being a pagan relegion plain and simple. I have no doubt that Yahashua rocked the block down there as Talmud has nothing nice to say about this young Rabbi. But as soon as the council got hold of it, It was converted into sun worship, wich is wy the sun worshipping kings of europe didnt have much of a problem accepting the gregorian calender based on the sun.
The 25th happen to allign with atleast 16 other "saviours" of mankind?s ressurection and often birth. Wich is what the council based the new testament on as the roman emporer was a sun worshipper.
Easter is when Christians celebrate the resurrection of Christ. Date likely chosen for similar historical reasons.
no, they just plain and simply stole what was allready there and told people to follow it or die. it really was that simple for a long time chosing christianity.
The secularization of both holidays (holy days) by non-believers should not be misconstrued as Christians changing the meaning and significance of the holidays.
The cycle of the sun is nothing worth worshipping for me. These dates are there because they allign with the sun and sun gods of various cultures. What you call xmas, we here in the north call Jul ...Our ancestors who were vikings called it Yule, and the gothics called it Imbolk. Same symbols (as christianity has today) etc..
I certainly understand if Muslims do not think it proper to celebrate Christian holidays (though the Quran does say Christ was a prophet of God)
But it altso tells us that prophets are merely human beings with flaws as everybody else, and that we shouldnt worship them. this include celebrating their assumed borthdays etc..
but that does not mean Christians are celebrating pagan rituals on those days.
Yes you are. Entirely. im sorry freind, but it is nothing but sun/son worship, and alltho i find many beutyfull things in the Bible, i similary find many beutyful things in hadeeth. that just doesnt change what they are and where they came from. The teachings of the real Yahashua is lost, but i suspect you find them as close as possible on the paper from wich you can learn ALQuran.
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Salaam JHamza,
Salaam NoProgressive,
Why would it be different between Halloween,St Patricks Day and Xmas?They all have both Christian and Pagan Influences..Halloween originated with the Celts as a Night of the Dead,Catholics adopted it as the night before All Saints-hence All Hallows.St Patricks day is basically a Catholic(polytheist) holiday but has deveopled into a time for drunken revelry.And Xmas has all the above,Paganism wraped in Christian trappings.The question should be how far back do you want to go when it comes to origins? I mean we can go wayyy back with many things that we probably do, and see how they originated in paganism... but they no longer carry the same meaning, therefore they mean something different now. we live in the present, not in the past.
salaam
Salaams NoProgressive,
Okay then is there any where in the Quran that states we should avoid customs,holidays with pagan origins or birthdays?It just seems contradictory to say its okay to celebrate or to keep traditions we have even though they had pagan origins,yet at the same time say we cant perform salat,circle the black stone in Mecca and kiss it etc in the same way that Mainstream Muslims do because of there pagan origins.Whats your opinion on this and everyone elses??
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Christians celebrate Christmas as the birthday of Christ. That the date coincides with previous pagan ritual days is simply a side effect of Christianity seeking to replace pagan rituals with Christian rituals, as you partly pointed out.
Easter is when Christians celebrate the resurrection of Christ. Date likely chosen for similar historical reasons.
The secularization of both holidays (holy days) by non-believers should not be misconstrued as Christians changing the meaning and significance of the holidays.
I certainly understand if Muslims do not think it proper to celebrate Christian holidays (though the Quran does say Christ was a prophet of God), but that does not mean Christians are celebrating pagan rituals on those days.
Thanks.
/oneway
Peace oneway,
Christians keep non biblical holidays sorry..No where in their Bible does it command or suggest its okay to celebrate the Birth or Resurrection of Jesus..It does say though in Jeremiah 101-10 Not to adopt the ways of the Heathen,and not to cut down trees and decorate them with silver and gold..it also says that Jesus was resurrected 3 days and 3 nights after his death,which if was on Friday as they claim would have been (FriNight=1+,SatNight=2+,SunNight=3 nights;Sat=1+,Sun=2+,Mon=3 days) late afternoon Monday,not sunday morning(but alot of people believe he died in the yr 31 CE,And Passover fell on Wed that yr,so 3 days and 3 nights would have been late saturday,explaining why he was already risen as their bible says come sunday morning before sunrise)..But thats a whole other story and topic.It does show in the New Testament though that Christians both Jewish and Gentile observed the same days as the Jews did..Passover for the Death,etc etc..and history shows the same thing up until the Catholic Church changed it all.
Peace -
Dear Jhamza
I suppouse the answer is different to each person, for one man may stomach meat and another only vegetables. It is how one judges the action that makes it to their concionsce a sin or a save. But the act is not greater than the intention, for the action lives and dies as the shadow but the intention stays with you as the sun.
Yesterday we had celebrated Persian New years and several months ago was (Western?)New years as well. I am sure I could point out many pagan origins of the event, but to point out the wrong in something is easy, to point to the right is wisdom.
I think the intention in any circumstance is key, for what are you celebrating, another oppurtunity to grow and feed the soul its manna bread(for have you not heared "God gave man space so he could strive for perfection, and time so he could try again) , or are you still trading the manna food for the stomach bread ignoring the one who gives pulses to the hearts?
I find during Christmas time our family does get together, and if this is the only way they will get together I will then milk this oppurtunity to spend time with them, it does not mean that I am going to give up my mind or hearts loyalty, but I will look past the smoke and see the glowing fires warmth, for appearance as usual is misleading.
peace,
Khalil -
Peace khalil. Excellent analysis.
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Peace khalil and all. I am married(commited.) to all the human-race..... D But this commitment is purely platonic.
Peace all. -
PEACE JHamza, all
i don't think its the pagan origins that are important, but the idea, intention behind observing those events. For example, Khalil celebrates christmas because he sees it as a chance to get together with his family, as opposed to celebrating the birthday of the son of God (isn't that what christmas is?).
Observing mindless rituals that cost you money, health, and time just because someone says you should makes no sense.
There is nothing wrong with observing events or rituals that benefit one as an individual (but that doesn't mean they can preach that ritual) -
PEACE JHamza, all
i don't think its the pagan origins that are important, but the idea, intention behind observing those events. For example, Khalil celebrates christmas because he sees it as a chance to get together with his family, as opposed to celebrating the birthday of the son of God (isn't that what christmas is?).
Observing mindless rituals that cost you money, health, and time just because someone says you should makes no sense.
There is nothing wrong with observing events or rituals that benefit one as an individual (but that doesn't mean they can preach that ritual)Peace phoenix1,
Im not saying that we shouldnt observe,only that if its wrong to keep them if they have pagan origins then we shouldnt if the QURAN mentions such things..But what I dont get is why is it okay to keep them as family get togethers but its not okay to adopt pagan rituals to worship GOD,it should go both ways..imo..I myself still observe Christmas,and Halloween as time for family and friends,but if I find out its wrong according to the Quran then I have no problem stopping..plus we still have Thanksgiving here in America,which isnt pagan or christian really,but A time set aside to give thanks to GOD for our blessings. -
peace
You have a good point, and i did say that if one feels that a certain ritual brings them closer to God, and aren't doing it just because some religious leader tells them to. then its perfectly fine to observe it. What they shouldn't do is tell other people to perform the exact ritual (and it wouldn't really qualify as a 'ritual' then).
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peace phoenix. I agree totally with your points. I would add that these 'rituals'/festivals can help in the learning process(ie something we might need to go through to verify its usefulness.) and even if we feel benefit from these rituals/festivals they should not cause/promote harm to us or others.The rituals/festivals can be an opportunity for promotion of peace and knowledge even if they have so-called 'questionable' origins. Its what the ritual/festival currently means or tries to achieve which is important,not just its original purpose or origins.
Peace all. -
Peace khalil,All
We cant say its okay to observe Christmas,Halloween etc when they are Pagan in origin then say its wrong to observe things Traditional Muslims do,like their style of Salat,Pilgrimage to Mecca,circling the Black Stone,etc
Peace Jhamza
Indeed, I think it goes down to the intention, for when one goes to Hajj or a Christmas gathering what exactly are their intentions for attending? For the action could be wrong, but the intention could be right, like a child giving dirt as a present.
I think these words below sums this up rather beautifully;
Whom Am I or They to see to whom you pray aint right
That's what got you doing right and got you this far
Whether you say "in Jesus name" or "Al hum du'Allah"
Long as you know it's a being that's supreme to you
You let that show towards others in the things you doCommon - G.O.D (Gaining Ones Definition)
peace,
Khalil