What is the scriptural support for us being a part of God?
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peace arnoldyasin. Yes,we can never get off the neverending road...........because we are part of the road. D
I agree with most of your post. very interesting.
peace. -
Peace and welcome Arnoldyasin,
Very good points across the board. I agree with your understanding that the infinite is indescribable. I disagree, however, that feelings are indescribable. Love is the exception, because love is beyond feeling. Feeling is the effect of love. Hate, however, is the cause of the feelings one calls hate, though, this is completely illusory in my humble opinion.
Description is attained through synonym or example. All feelings, except love, have synonyms and examples.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
Description is attained through synonym or example. All feelings, except love, have synonyms and examples.
True, but love has an antonym called 'hate'. I believe love and hate are both feeliings of opposite nature and controlling factors of reality.
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Peace all,
I agree that it is impossible for the limited creation to fully comprehend the unlimited and infinite Creator. An analogy would be the human cell, which communicates with other cells through receptors and chemical transmitters, has a lot of complex metabolic reactions going on and is like a huge city with complex structures like the DNA, the nucleus, the nucleolus, ribosomes, mitochondria etc. Despite the complex structures, metabolic reactions and processes and the ability to communicate, it would be impossible for the cell to have any idea or comprehension of the human body as a whole.
The next thing to think about is that if all the creation is a part of The God, then how can The God put some of His creation (which is His part) in hell ? Wouldn't that be subjecting a part of Himself to hell ? But then hell is His part too !
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Peace tanvermed. I would be very interested to hear peoples replies to the question you posed. Hell(which doesnt have to be eternal;we can get out if we rectify our behaviour.) is just the severe consequences of an inappropriate action. To me why people get into severe stress(hell.) is because people forget they are part of the whole and interdependent;the illusion of seperation causes people to forget their real function and form.(which is to live respecting all,and trying to attain universal peace.) Also i believe this adds weight to the belief that god is not a seperate entity,but a word that means;the sum total all that exists.(which is infinite,and beyond exact description.)
A single entity being all-forgiving/all powerful,then putting parts of creation(or parts of itself.) into hell makes little sense.
peace all. -
Salaam,
First of all we have to remember it is Hell for us, for our senses it feels as Hell, so you cannot compare how God experiences things and we, we cannot phantom the mind of God, and we can never say He experiences as we do, that is ignorant. Secondly i believe we have a bit greek-minded view of Hell, our view of Hell is filled in through Christian description ideas that was formed by their Greek and Zoroasterian background, it resembled their underworld of the greek gods and legends of the Persians. This concept was then again copied by the first and later Muslims, because most were converted chistians and zoroasterians. So we have to learn to shake this conception ogf Hell out of us. Hell is a methaphor for something we will not gonna enjoy. But like i said, for our senses it will feel as Hell, for everyone his/her Hell can be different, for God it's just another creation, just like He allows war and misery on this earth for now, allows us to 'use' Him for these attrocities. Gehenna is an old valley near Jerusalem, where they used to sacrifice humans by burning, for their gods like Baal, God always uses examples that are known for the people he revealed it too, imagine if he said in the Quran that Hell feels like a nuclear explosion. you think the first muslims would have understood? Would they have known to fear this? In every holy scripture Hell is described in a way the people of those times would understand. Also i have some more ideas about the Hell described in the Quran and other Scriptures. i believe it has more to do with experiencing Hell(not following creation as it should be) now then in a afterlife.
Also enquirer, i don't agree with your God is everything summed up, because creations not have always existed, so this means there was a conciousness before the creations. Creations are carried by infinity, but are not infinite themselves. All under the laws of change, and even though all will change infinity/forever. The only thing that never changes is infinity itself, and by thus is seperated/on a different level then the creations it carries. Your idea of 'punishment' has to do more with the wrong conception of Hell and punishment that comes from the Greek-Zoroasterian myths, then really from what the Quran and other Scriptures say. Hell is not living correctly by the rules of life, and by thus will never achieve full life(heaven) that is possible inside this creation. Instead of limiting God again, by saying He is only a summed up of all creation, we have to see why some old concepts don't fit with a infinite God, that carries all creation. We have to shake off the old concepts, and start with a fresh, developed thinking, instead of taking it on God. Our concepts are wrong, not God or His messages.
Our ideas are filled in for us from birth, the concept of succes is given to us by our parents and society, saying like succes means a good job, a car, wife, 2 children, twice a year on holiday. Our concept of a relationship is filled in by love-stories, movies. Our idea of happiness is connected with having money in the western world, not because you ever thought about it yourself, it was programmed in your subconciousness that it is like this. When you were a kid, if it rained, your parents probably complained about the 'bad' weather, so from there on, rain always was stuck to being 'bad' in your subconciousness, rain never had a fair chance, you never judged it by your own. This is the case with most concepts we are thaught in our lives, it is already filled in by the previous generations, and by thus blocking it for you to investigate it for yourselves. Making your subconciousness blank again is hard, but it is neccesary if we want to understand the true message of the Scriptures.
And to grow, that is what a lot of philosophers tried in the lat 1000 years.Peace...
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Hello enquirer,
If we cant comprehend/understand god why do we glorify him?
I would say that we don't understand Love nor can we fully put into words what love means and yet we do still love do we not?
If we cant comprehend him,is our concept of him an illusion?
Not an Illusion but our ideas about "God" can only be provisional.
Can god not be partially understood by the 'attributes' traditionally given to him?
Yes, Love and Compassion.
I thought the quran stated' Not to follow that of which you have no knowledge/verification'? How can we follow an idea which cannot be comprehended/verified,even partially?
This is in Buddhism too. Verification. But "God" as a "reality" can't be verified "out there" but within by exploring the limitlessness of Love and Compassion. "Out there" will tell you that the Universe has a "designer" but you will not find the "designer" itself there.
"God" as a reality has always been encountered within a "meditative-trance".
I think i should clarify that i am saying god=all that exists,and all that exists is constituted of energy.(in different forms.)
If God is Energy then God obeys Einesteins Equation E=MC2. But God is said to be "omnipotent"?
And yes,i do believe energy is eternal and in a constant state of flux/changing of forms.
Then there is no need of a God enquirer. There is no need of a God at all.
When certain conditions are met,then energy can manifest into a different form such as matter or a seemingly 'new' creation.
In that case there is never a creation it is only a transformation of energy via the equation E=mc2.
Sometimes i feel making god above all comprehension(ie not being able to even comprehend parts of the god.) is reducing god to nothing or just a powerless/unverifiable,contradictory,mysterious, 'leap of faith' idea.
That is the insight of the past sages enquirer, that "God" is simply a "Nothing" i.e it is not a "thing" called "energy". It is not a thing called "matter". God is simply "Nothing" or the "Void". God is "nothing" and yet God is "everything" - God is simply a Paradox.
(and there is no 'real' such thing as 'nothing',nothing is an illusion or just the inability of our senses to perceive something.)
But "God" as a reality goes beyond "sense-perception".
The totality of god may be incomprehensible(due to its infinite nature.) but the parts/manifestations/constitutents of god can definately be verified.
God can be experienced within. But this experience can't be put into words because this experience lies beyond Language and Reason. It lies beyond everday thought-processes, it lies beyond the "sense-perception".
Tao that can be named is not true Tao.
Ensof is Unknowable.
The word "Exist" bore no relation to the reality that is "Nirvana".
You can only experience this "reality" within.
But if it makes it easy for you to understand God=Energy then I have no problem with that enquirer... I am just constrasting your views thats all...
Regards,
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Peace Danish,
You stated
love has an antonym called 'hate'. I believe love and hate are both feeliings of opposite nature and controlling factors of reality.
As always, I respect your opinion. However, I don't think that the thesaurus calling "hate" an antonym of "love" makes it so. Hate, anger, displeasure, hostility, etc, can all be turned off instantly with a shift in focus. This makes them illusory, self-made, ego-driven feelings. Love cannot be turned off. It stands alone, peerless. Mothers of criminals admit their children's shortcomings, or savagery, or brutality, but they maintain their love for them despite full comprehension of their children's often terrible actions.
Once a person finds love in another, the force binding, not because it feels good, but because it feels right, it feels natural.
Peace,
Tay -
Osho once explained the sutras of Hakim Sanai says as following
THIS IS BEYOND THE SAGE?S GRASP
YOU MUST BE A FOOL
IF YOU THINK THAT YOU KNOW IT.
Even the so-called sages find it beyond their grasp. So the learned people, the pundits and the scholars,
if they think that they know God, that they know themselves, they must be fools.
God is beyond any grasp; even the grasp of the sage is not capable of holding God in the hands.
Because God is never the sought, but the seeker. God is not out there, so that you can grasp him.
God is the one who is trying to grasp how can you grasp the grasper? That will be absurd.
That?s why you cannot see your own face. You cannot see your own eyes; you can see them in a
mirror but you see only the reflection of your eyes, not your eyes. The eyes cannot see themselves.
How can God grasp himself? If I try to grasp my hand with the same hand, it is going to be
maddening. It will drive you crazy. It will be like a dog trying to chase its own tail.
THIS IS BEYOND THE SAGE?S GRASP...
Because it is beyond grasp. Why is it beyond grasp? Not that it is far away, but because it is the
very energy that is trying to grasp it. The knower is the known. The knowledge is not going to be
of something else, it is self-knowing. There is not going to be any object of knowledge that you will
grasp. You are the subject and you are the object. You are all that is.
Consciousness is all.
WHEN YOU CAN EXPOUND ON THIS,
YOU WILL KNOW THE PURE ESSENCE OF FAITH;
TILL THEN,
WHAT HAVE FAITH AND YOU IN COMMON?
You can?t know what faith is; what you call faith is only belief. Belief is of the head, it is part of
knowledge. Belief is false and phoney. Belief means somebody else has said something and you
have believed it; it is borrowed. Belief is never original. Faith is always original. It arises in you it is
the growth of your own consciousness.
... YOU WILL KNOW THE PURE ESSENCE OF FAITHIt goes much longer, but so far for now
peace
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Beautifuly said, exactly my thoughts....
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And Hakim Sanai continues
MY FRIEND, EVERYTHING EXISTING
EXISTS THROUGH HIM;
YOUR OWN EXISTENCE IS A MERE PRETENSE.
NO MORE NONSENSE! LOSE YOURSELF,
AND THE HELL OF YOUR HEART BECOMES A HEAVEN.
LOSE YOURSELF, AND ANYTHING CAN BE ACCOMPLISHED.
YOUR SELFISHNESS IS AN UNTRAINED COLT.
YOU ARE WHAT YOU ARE
HENCE YOUR LOVES AND HATES;
YOU ARE WHAT YOU ARE
HENCE FAITH AND UNBELIEF.
HOPE AND FEAR DRIVE FORTUNE FROM YOUR DOOR;
LOSE YOURSELF, AND THEY WILL BE NO MORE.
AT HIS DOOR, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE
BETWEEN MOSLEM AND CHRISTIAN,
VIRTUOUS AND GUILTY?
AT HIS DOOR ALL ARE SEEKERS
AND HE THE SOUGHT.
GOD IS WITHOUT CAUSE
WHY ARE YOU LOOKING FOR CAUSES?
THE SUN OF TRUTH RISES UNBIDDEN,
AND WITH IT SETS THE MOON OF LEARNING.
IN THIS HALT OF BUT A WEEK,
TO BE IS NOT TO BE,
AND TO COME IS TO GO.
AND DOES THE SUN EXISTS
FOR THE COCK TO CROW AT?
WHAT IS IT TO HIM
WHETHER YOU ARE THERE OR NOT?
MANY HAVE COME, JUST LIKE YOU,
TO HIS DOOR.
YOU WON?T FIND YOUR WAY
IN THIS STREET; IF THERE IS A WAY,
IT IS ON YOUR ROAD OF SIGHS.
ALL OF YOU ARE FAR
FROM THE ROAD OF DEVOTION
SOMETIMES YOU ARE VIRTUOUS,
SOMETIMES YOU ARE WICKED
SO YOU HOPE FOR YOURSELVES, FEAR FOR YOURSELVES;
BUT WHEN YOUR MASK OF WISDOM AND FOLLY
AT LAST TURNS WHITE, YOU WILL SEE
THAT HOPE AND FEAR ARE ONE.peace
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Peace lote-tree and all. My personal belief is that parts of god(reality.) are verifiable and identifiable. Same with love.In 10 years time we may discover that parts of love do indeed have an energy structure.Remember when infra-red and uv were not physically verifiable,even though their prescence/effects could be felt?well,now they are physically verifiable. To those people uv and infra-red may have been classed as unknowable like 'ensof' or 'tao' or God.Maybe our concept of 'unknowable' is also provisional. If God is all,then of course i can verify this just by knowing/seeing that i exist along with other beings.Every experience i have can bring futher verification of this. If God is all,are we not the designers as well,like artists? I dont believe in the monotheistic omnipotence,we all have limited powers to express our will. Doesnt God(everything.) follow its own laws and limitations,its own perceived functions and forms?
All existence and manifestation is interdependent,there is no creation from nothing..Just manifestation of previously unseen(unseen by us.) beings. Everthing is eternal and manifests in different forms given different conditions. And yes,there is just transformation of energy,which people call 'creation.' I dont think that it is neceassary for a single all-powerful/all knowing creator-god... we are all designers and knowers.
Words can point to realities,sometimes words can express god and sometimes they cant. The meditative trance you mentioned is what i consider to be a higher form of conciousness,you can also perceive god in lower states(relatively speaking.) such as intuition,conscience etc.. in my opinion.
I feel we can experience god internally and externally.(by pondering on what is external and/or internal to us.)
Finally i will state that i dont have much problem with any of your understandings either and i respect them...sometimes i think we are expressing the same/similiar realities in different language/concepts and from our own experiences of reality. I believe reality has an objective and a subjective aspect to it. If an understanding works for someone and is truely verifiable then that is fine. I think we can experience reality universally,but also in slightly different(though similiar.) ways given our own unique insight and structure/situation.. my opinions can be limited due to my incomplete knowledge and my limited ability to convey what i mean. However true reality can be expressed by many different words/ concepts/non verbal communication methods etc..,and i think reality is best discovered with direct experience and/or trying to see things as they really are,without illusions/preconceptions.
Peace all. -
peace enquirer,
As inayat khan said
Every person's desire is according to his evolution. That for which he is ready is desirable for him. Milk is a desirable food for the infant, other foods for the grown-up person. Every stage in life has its own appropriate and desirable things.
When one realizes the ultimate truth, one comes to understand that one single underlying current to which all the different religions, philosophies and faiths are attached. These are all only different expressions of the same truth, and it is the absence of that knowledge which causes all to be divided into so many different sects and religions.
In India there is a well-known story exemplifying this fact that some blind men were very anxious to see an elephant. So a kind man one day took them to see one. There, standing by its side, he said, "Now, here is the elephant, see what you can make of it." Each one tried to make out by touch what the elephant looked like, and afterwards when they met together they began to discuss its appearance. One said, "It looks like the big pillar of a palace," another said, "It looks like a fan." And so they differed and discussed amongst one another, then they quarreled so much as to come to a hand-to-hand fight. Each one said, "I have seen it, I know what it is; I have touched it." Then the man who took them to the elephant came and said, "You are every one of you right, but you have each seen only a part of the elephant."So it is with the religions. A person says, "This religion is the one, this doctrine is the only one, this truth is the only truth possible." That shows a lack of knowledge of the ultimate truth. As soon as one comes to the realization of the depth of truth, one begins to discern that it is the same truth which the great ones have tried to express in words. They could not put it fully into words. They have done their best to help humanity to evolve and reach to a point at which it is able to understand what can never be explained in words.
Somebody can be praised by one and hated by another, and ten people may all have a different idea of the same person, because each understands him according to his state of evolution. Each sees that person according to his own point of view, each looks at him through his own eyes, and therefore the same person is different to each being. In the mind of one the person is a sinner, in the mind of another he is a saint. The same person who is considered gentle and good by one is considered the opposite by another. If this can be so in connection with a living being, it is equally possible that various ideas of the deity should be formed in each heart, and that each soul should mold his own deity according to his own evolution and according to his way of idealizing and understanding. Therefore the deity of every heart is different and is as that person has imagined; but the God of every soul is one and the same, whatever people imagine. It is the same God that they all imagine, but their imaginations are different and it is the lack of understanding of this that has caused the differences in religion.peace,
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aslmlkm
allah is a soul,being,creature. thats why everything exists,he created it,everything belongs to him,outside of allah theres is nothing,and nothing is a word in english meaning not-something and it was created by humans,which allah put them here so they could represent him,like it says in quran.
and if allah was "everything" then who u worship? matter? allah? he is now impossible to understand fully,we just get the basics.want more? be a good muslim and inshallah in the hereafter you will know the truth.
peace -
Peace,
The word everything in my view goes beyond matter. God is infinite in presence. He has no shape or place as He is everywhere. Where ever you go or look, if it is here on the here after, He is everywhere. The God with a shape or position, is from the Bible not the Quran.
- To God belong the East and the West. Wherever you turn the glory of God is everywhere All-pervading is He and all-knowing.