Destiny of those praying 5x towards the cube?
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Salam Saladin,
But do we need to worship or to serve. To serve it makes more sense, as to worship is ritualistic. And 5x a day facing a cube I can see is total ritual and not serving God. So if one is not serving God one in a ritual like all other ritual mongers are worshiping idol.
salam .
worshipping/praising/glorifying Allah is part of the service .they would be worshipping the kaaba only if they praise or glorify the kaaba instead of Allah . but they dont glorify or praise the kaaba . so that is not idolatry .
I completely agree. And you are welcome AhmedBahgat
peace
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Peace,
Cube (KABAA) and its history
Read and see how beautiful the story of this focal point of path is.
A book to read in silence so that you can hear your own heartbeats.
http//www.shariati.com/HAJJ2.html
peace
Peace bro,
So is it the Kabba or the Masjid-al-haram the focal point?
Kabba mean ankle and masjid-al-haram is restriction in submission. where is the focal point?
Please eleborate your view.
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Easy bmbmm. How are things doctor?(pbuh. ) ) I think that as alpha97 pointed out,the procedure does not always matter.Its the purpose and effect that counts more. If someone wants to pray towards a cube or go to hajj thats fine by me.As long as the 'ritual' does not cause harm to themselves or others. The purpose of salat is to prevent you from indecent deeds.If praying 5 times towards the quibla works in this respect,for a paticular person i would recommend that for that person. There can be other methods and alternatives such as study,meditation,trying to control your emotions etc.. But different methods work better or worse for different people. I think everbody can come to find their own form of salat or a salat that works best for them. One method of salat i use is thinking about the consequences of my behaviour on other people. I think salat is just an umbrella/general term for thinking deeply/studying/meditating with a view to improving behaviour. As for parents and other people following these prayers,i dont think they will go to hell just for doing them,it depends on their intention and what their behaviour is like. I would recommend to concentrate on the common beliefs you and the people who pray physically have,rather than the different methods we use to get closer to god.(reality.)
Peace all.Peace eq. I do not think its fine at all. Millions are praying to the stones (worshiping to be more correct). The result of this is nothing is being achieved. No commitments but worship (wasting time). I think this is important because from being most advance and knowledgeble muslim are just like dust nowadays.
What do you think?
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Peace bmbmm. I understand your comments about the progress of the umma being in decline. But this is not necessarily because of the physical prayers.
This decline could be because the purpose of the salat has become like a ritual to some. Salat should produce a mind that is rational and tries to understand reality.It should also lead to beneficial behaviour. Some peole have taken salat as just an empty 'holy ritual' in itself,while forgetting its purpose.(better awareness and behaviour.) So i feel its not neceassarily the physical aspect that is incorrect,but more the purpose of some peoples salat that is incorrect. A scientist can pray 5 times a day,and for him it may help him to meditate and connect with god(reality.),if he does it correctly then his scientific prowess could increase because he could be more relaxed and in tune with reality. Salat should lead to commitment to progress. I dont think its idol-worship unless it leads to very illogical/ very harmful behaviour.
Peace all. -
peace.
Peace eq. I do not think its fine at all. Millions are praying to the stones
which prayer exactly is directed towards the kaaba ?
(worshiping to be more correct). The result of this is nothing is being achieved. No commitments but worship (wasting time). I think this is important because from being most advance and knowledgeble muslim are just like dust nowadays.
so nowadays praising Allah is a wastage of time ?!
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the direction you are praying is not haram, now if you go and pray in the cube it would be i believe, I dont go in sunni mosques, because they are not devoted to God ALONE as they should be. But those are 2 different things praying in a direction and actually praying to the cube. Praying to the cube would be, your intention is 'i am praying to the cube' than it can still be idol-worship at home. But if your intentions are about praying to the Lord then you are not praying 'to the cube'.
peace
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Peace,
First Faith then prayer.
It Does not help even if trillions pray.
PRAYER BRINGS NO FAITHFULL! It never has and it never will.
FAITHFULL BRINGS PRAYER! It is utterance of love toward the UNLIMITED, in faith , in action, in contact-prayer.About the cube, first read the book that I referred to.
Cube is the historical connection of many generations of faithfulls starting with ABRAHAM and those who followed the path of oneness.
peace -
Hello
Kaab means ankle ,
Kaaba means Kaaba , and is a name of something, like my name and your name
the two words are totally different, the first is mascular and the second is feminine
Cheers
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Salaam,
I myself has defended the Kaaba and the traditional view of the qibla, i had many and many discussions about it with Ayman on 19.org. I even found a whole history on buildings like the Kaaba, that you can read on 19.org.
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/5479/0/
But i told Ayman in our first discussions with his article how it came to this also on 19.org that no history or archeology can prove us right or wrong, only the Quran can. And the Quran proved me wrong, our concept of Salat in the traditional sense is not correct, the Quran of God doesn't refer directly to prayer as we think. People we say we follow the Quran of God alone, but we are still carrying the sunni-ways without knowing. As Ayman shows in his article what's in the name, that we can jump and twist, but it is the Quran of God that explains the meaning of Salat, not any history or dictionary.
Ahmed Ali on the meaning of Salat
Salat as As-sala meant middle of the back, a horse that is second in a race, and as salia-wastala dependence, adherence, attachment. In the Quran salat acquired the conceptual meanings of devotion, adherence to God and His commands, fulfilling one?s duties and obligations as behoves an ?abd, creature, servant, devotee of God, as integral part of ?ubudiyat, servitude and devotion, made clear in 2441 which underlines that every creature in the heavens and the earth knows its salat, duties and obligations.
The Quran, thus, brings to the mind its real objects from words by invoking the images imbedded in the subconcious. For though the words remain the same, they often acquire new conceptual meanings and new dimensions lying hidden in their roots, which are brought out by the Quran, and now form part of its linguistic and intellectual dynamism. At the same time they become removed from the Jahiliya which was more of an attitude of mind and culture than a state of ignorance, as well as the later world as unfolded by the changing patterns of history, thought and language, so that anyone interpreting the Quran on the basis as used by Arabs today would only misled the readers of the Book.
It is about what the Quran gives as examples, and we can only look it from the Arabic point of view, no translation will show you the right meaning, except when it uses crossreference as showing examples. Also this can make people wrong conclusions. But i also went through a long line of adapting, my mind wasn't ready yet for the truth. I went from 5 prayers, to 3, then doubting if it shouldn't be 2, then after reading Ayman's article, i saw what he meant. What he saw the Quran tells us. I don't agree with Ayman on his view of 19, but i also disagree with most people who believe in 19 on how and why it is there, for me it is only an alarm system, nothing more and nothing less, and that Rashad had so many things wrong doesn't say nothing on 19 itself. Just like the Quran of God is seperate from Muhammed, so is 19 discovery loose from the discoverer. Ayman did wrong, what i did wrong with the discussion on "the Kaaba", he brought in history and outside information, instead on focussing what is really inside the Quran of God.
But on the Salat issue i believe Ayman has hit the spot, so if people want to discuss about Salat, then try to discuss Ayman's article, if you want to prove you're right or wrong, see if you agree with Ayman or refute him, but then you have to show proof. I still believe in prayer and i meditate a lot, but my only direction is towards God, no landmark. And i do it when i need or want it, and how i want it. This is logical from a scientist, realist, philosophical and free thinking mind. From a mind that believes God doesn't need anything and wouldn't demand anything that doesn't directly help you or can't be defined by logical and rational thinking, and God shows prayer is not limited to some times a day, and the use of the word Salat inside the Quran of God shows it doesn't mean a 'special'prayer. That is it what it is all about, so all our concepts of 'we need salat', first check then what Salat is.
But this is what the Quran of God explains it self. It doesn't need me or Ayman. We have to remember that all of our words we use in daily lives, are programmed in to our brain from day 1. In most countries, the word succes means, good job, wife, 2 kids, 2 cars, 2 times a year on holiday. When it rained, your parents looked outside, and said it is bad weather, so from there on, the concept 'rain' and 'bad' are connected forever inside your subconciousness, until you realise you never judged rain yourself, it was already judged for you. Our concept of 'fun' is determined by your culture, for example in Holland, 'fun' is getting drunk and don't rememberring the next day what happened, and hearing from your friends that you walked on the bar and puked on the bouncer, and then everybody laughs. this concept of 'fun', wasn't really by choice, it is something you get drawn into. A drug becomes normal, when it is accepted by your surroundings. Smoking was normal 10 years ago, so the concept of 'smoking' didn't had a 'wrong' feeling, no it is a taboo. We get programmed by our surroundings, we are thaught what prayer is, what words mean, what the concepts are behind it. This also applies to the concept 'salat', 'islam','deen','hajj', and so on.
We were programmed what it should mean, and even though we know we can only accept the Quran of God as guide, we still kept the traditional concept of Salat, so we looked for that concept that we were thaught in this world, instead of looking what the Quran of God says what the concept is, how God means what the concept is. We are obliged to drop our pre-programmed concept of rain is bad, salat is prayer, and see what rains means to us, what the Quran of God says what God Himself means with Salat.
This discussion is futile, till everybody understands this. We can twist and turn what we want, but we are only fighting the Quran of God then. Read the article of Ayman yourself, and see the differences between our pre-programmed concepts and the concepts given to us by God.
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm
Let God programme our concepts, that is really Islam......
This what God tries to tell us with His Quran, to re-programme our concepts of freedom, law, equality, status, truth, faith, obligations, society structure, rights, behaviour, our concepts of afterlife and death, magic, spirits and so on. This is Islam, dropping our pre-programmed concepts and refreshing our subconciousness witht the real concepts. Most of our concepts are filled in by previous dogma's and doctrines of ancient times, most rituals were 're-programmed' by the elite and clergy, and replaced it, and by thus hiding or loosing the original concepts God tried to show us. Hell is living a lie, not a furnice in the afterlife...........
Peace
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peace arnoldyasin. I agree almost totally with your excellent post...But,i believe its not just the quran we should refer to. Reality(God.) is the true guide. Our concepts can be overturned and corrected by reality,(God.) which is not limited to just the quran. Does not god speak and verify to us through nature,conscience and mediums outside scripture?
peace all. -
Yes, i only talk about the things that are discussed/given in the Quran of God. Those concepts must be explained by the Quran of God itself, just like i said, judge rain yourself, that is a concept you will not find in the Quran of God, but only will find in Nature. I never said anything about those concepts you mention to be found only in the Quran of God, i only refer to our concepts that are mentioned inside the Quran.
So i believe you 'filled' in what you believe i said yourself wink .
The Quran of God only explains the concepts it mentions, all the rest is for us to explore........
Peace
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Peace arnold
please be aware, I only responded to the argument regarding Kaab and Kaaba from the language point of view, to be honest bro I read all what Ayman wrote just for curoisity, but the whole subject does npot concern me the slightest because when I perform Salat I only do it for Allah, i never thought of the Kaaba once while performing salat for all the years i can remember
if the Kaaba now days is fake, i'm sure the Quran would have mentioned it,"or at least indirectly" and all the evidences from the Quran strongly suggest that it is not a fake, what I can agree that is fake is the many hadith about the prophet, other than this bro the Quran alone people has been refuted fairly and squarly using the Quran and they never responded with a convencing reply, the argument against them is clearly the prophet was not only a delivery man and even if he was, what he was delivering never mentioned explicitly as the Quran only, in fact there are many verses that clearly say the prophet had other explanations to do
peace mate
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Peace arnoldyasin. I am not criticising you brother, just making an observation. ) I believe that the concepts in the quran cannot always be verified internally. I verified what salat in the quran could mean from my life-experience,not just from verses. if i understand you,then you are saying the qurans concepts can only be understood by reference to itself. That may work for you,but for me many times it does not work and can be a long-winded route to understanding.You can verify gods universal laws from life,without the quran.
If i have misunderstood your position i stand corrected and apologise.
Peace all. -
Peace,
I understand both of you, and i agree with both you to a certain level, but i also stay in the middle, and AB, if you investigate more on why and and how rituals developed in societies, you would understand me the concepts were copied from each other, not the truths, but also prove then Ayman is wrong on this, you say the Quran says something, show it please....
Peace
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Thanks eq and arnoldyasin. Really a good post. To want to clerify further, I understand that facing something as a direction does not mean one is worshiping/serve an idol or one really is, or the worshipers does not even know. Also what are is the impact to the entire Umah? Please think about the whole Umah not just yourself who prays 5x. As an umah we have faild! Also see atricles on the front page of Free-minds.org
An interesting fact is God command us to serve not to worship. For us to serve we have to focus on masjid-al-haram the restrictions within the system. Because when we focus on these we are setting up a balance/harmony within the system (the yen-yang, the Tao's, Buddist Confucious (pbuh lol ), igologies and following the Quran). Just facing and praying 5x a day this (serving God here on earth is not being achived), as we can see our state today million are rushing to hajj for what? Billion are worshiping/praying 5x in one direction but for what? One can't face a point on the globe anyway, as there isn't one! Also in the masjid-al-haram there are signs of Abrahim, that he only serve one God (the main one), yet if one looks at the man-made structure around the cube there are no signs there (how can there be signs in the structure)? It funny they have put foot prints of Abrahim there.
Hence facing a point (which is not a point as the earth is not flat!) praying/worshiping 5x a day, going to hajj, kissing the black stone, spinning around the cube, thinking that all sins are forgiven is clearly wrong. This worshiping/praying rituals have given a false confidence to the majority of the muslims. They think that this is their utmost duty, however just SERVING God by paying attention to the haram things in submission will change and improve our existance.
Peace
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Peace,
I understand both of you, and i agree with both you to a certain level, but i also stay in the middle, and AB, if you investigate more on why and and how rituals developed in societies, you would understand me the concepts were copied from each other, not the truths, but also prove then Ayman is wrong on this, you say the Quran says something, show it please....
Peace
Yes bro i did a lot of investigation and reading on how ritusals devevloped and affected socities, i can see this in every cultural and every religion, in many cases it is clear corruption, but the truth will always shine bro, i mean it will be easy to find but only for those whom Allah will remove the veil that is covering them then guide them to that truth, ironically many conflicting opinions think that they are the ones who are truly guided therefore the best and only Judge must be Allah, i guess everyone of us is sort of taking a gamble, many have good reasons to go in a direction and others have absolutely no merit to go with another direction, at the end of the day it is one hell of a tough test for all of us, I always say it this way, the toughest thing in life MUST be the belief, because i don't think that Allah has created all these things that we see or not just to serve the purpose of that test unless it is a damn hard test, therefore the safest bet for me must be following the Quran as literal as possible unless it states or clearly understood otherwise, this way I may have a strong defence argument "if allowed" in the judgment day, because what I followed was what it said as literal as possible, and that is what most words in any language should be taken and understood unless we are playing some dsort of puzzles and only the ones with high IQ will win, which does not sound fair neither equal
a simple example is this, if i want any one not to smoke in my car, i will tell that person "please do not smoke in the car" and I will be serious about it, this is how I see Allah is talking to us in the Quran brother, no tricks and no games, and if there is any, it will be very few verses "Mutashabihat" just to serve the purpose of testing that apply for both the believers and the unbelievers equally, see how the test is tough?, even we are tested in the belief in the Quran
peace mate
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Hello All
to Suggest that Al Masjid Al Haram is haram things in submission is basless and has no ground indeed, and surely sounds funny as well, sorry lol
Cheers
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Salaam,
Yes, AB, i also used to think like this, and i recommend read more wink
No, i understand you perfectly, it is indeed hard, is this symbolic or literral? But still then, is mine concept of this literal subject pre-programmed or do i have a clear judgement on it? These are sometimes hard questions. And i believe in time we will understand more Godwilling.
But AB, i am a scientist and a theologist, if you refute something, saying it sounds funny is not enough........proof please proof...........Otherwise you act just like Oneway.....
And bmbmm, i agree, The Quran of God is not just a 'religious' Book, it is a way to perfect societies. When we investigate concepts as given in the Quran of God, we see it is indeed a ?omplete' Book on subjects we need advise on. But letting go of the pre-programmed concepts is the hardest thing in life. Nothing tests you more then letting go of pre-programmed concepts, i have seen this in human history, look at how long the church held on the earth is flat theory and the earth is center of universe theory, you can see it in science with intelligent design or not. Most debates are not about truths, but about if people are able to see it is about reprogramming your view. i have seen in my own life also, i have been the most stubborn person in certain pre-programmed concepts, now i am finaly reprogramming myself with being open, using the Quran of God and other information. Balanced conviction and open mind are bridges to higher selfs, bridges to God...
So i never judge anybody on their beliefs, everybody is in their own fase of understanding....
Peace -
Hello All
to Suggest that Al Masjid Al Haram is haram things in submission is basless and has no ground indeed, and surely sounds funny as well, sorry lol
Cheers
Salam Ahmed,
Saying that its a mosque (building) around the cube doesn't hold any water either.
The structures built, nowadays called mosques were built for worldly knowledge and discussions. Nowadays a twist from serving God to worhiping him has turned these into monastic-monastries or temples, like all other religions (not the Dinn) does. Its stanage that people go there follow a man and do exercise in a language that they don't even know, although it is memorised by some.
Ahmed if you say masjid-al-haram is a mosques there was no such a building at the time of Mohammed, which is a historical fact. If its something to be focued into why a masjid (strucure) rather than the cube?
What signs of Abrahim are there according to your understanding?I think we should critically with an openmind analyse the Reading, rather than following the pagan-Arabs understanding of the Arabic of times passed by, before and after the revelation to Mohammed.